Glenn requested this story. This is all true and happened to us recently.
In May of this year my wife was diagnosed with melanoma. Our family doctor referred us to a hospital in Tulsa for surgery. We visited with the surgeon and he explained what needed to be done. In his words it was a standard procedure for this type of cancer. My wife an I are both self employed so we have no insurance. We explained we needed to know the costs involved before we could decide to proceed. They where all very nice and explained everything and answered our questions. We agreed on a prices with all parties and paid in advance. So far so good. When we went for the follow up visit the doctor explained that he had gotten out everything and that we should see another doctor to monitor her for any further problems.
Here's where the fun begins. The cancer specialist made us wait in his office for 3 hours. There where no other patients in the waiting room the entire time we where there. When he finally sees her he does nothing but read the reports of the other doctors. He then proceeds to tell us that she needs the exact same surgery she had just had again followed by what he called, "therapy".
At that point I stopped him and asked him what kind of therapy, he replied simply medicine. What kind of medicine? Cancer medicine, he says. What kind of cancer medicine? Injected, he says. At this point I'm starting to get annoyed so I ask bluntly "what is it called"? He answers, "infusion". OK now I am annoyed. What is the correct name of the chemical you intend to inject in my wife? He final answers the question. "Is it toxic", I ask. His answer, and I'm not kidding, "yes very".
We said we wanted to think about it and do some research. The sales pitch continues. We are mad by now and tell him we are leaving and to give us the bill. $337 for a 3 hour wait and 15 minutes of talking. I called them crooks and we paid and left. Upon returning home I look up the so called medicine. PEG is the first 3 letters of the name. Guess what PEG is?
Antifreeze(poison)
3 days later I get a bill collector call for...get this, $5k+ balance for a surgery I already paid for. All of these doctors work for the same hospital. You connect the dots.
Well if you had taken the antifreeze injection you would have remained cool when the bill collector called ;D
Sorry about the way you were treated. It's indefensible behavior by that doctor.
I hope your wife is feeling well. Best of luck.
EG, ethylene glycol is antifreeze
PEG, polyethylene glycol is non toxic, is in many medicines and even... DR Pepper. It is most often remembered as the evil jug you have to drink before a colonoscopy to clear the system.
The doc did get you out of his office, which was probably the intent.
I'm self employed and do carry insurance... a homeowner would not appreciate my injury costing them a house. For this reason I do not hire uninsured subs, I'm not paying their insurance and the homeowner doesn't deserve the risk.
Certain forms of PEG are also wood stabilizers.
PEG is also used in most commercial cosmetics... But that doesn't mean it's good for you. While it's not as initially poisonous as ethylene glycol, PEG compounds have been linked to many different types of cancer, especially from heavy or prolonged exposure. It kind of grosses me out how heavily it is used in cosmetics, as it is so absorbent and penetrates quickly into the skin.. It's a petroleum derivative, you know? The stuff has to build up in your liver and cause chronic problems..
Scott:
I am sorry about your wives condition. . . I hope that she has a complete recovery!
I lost my father to melanoma 9 ½ years ago. He had cancer removed from the arch of his foot. Then years later from his face. All seemed well for about 5 years and then it went to his liver.
Since then I have done some research. Please check out these sites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanna_Budwig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanna_Budwig)
http://www.beating-cancer-gently.com/ (http://www.beating-cancer-gently.com/)
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Quote from: Don_P on July 19, 2011, 06:20:16 PM
EG, ethylene glycol is antifreeze
PEG, polyethylene glycol is non toxic, is in many medicines and even... DR Pepper. It is most often remembered as the evil jug you have to drink before a colonoscopy to clear the system.
The doc did get you out of his office, which was probably the intent.
I'm self employed and do carry insurance... a homeowner would not appreciate my injury costing them a house. For this reason I do not hire uninsured subs, I'm not paying their insurance and the homeowner doesn't deserve the risk.
Certain forms of PEG are also wood stabilizers.
I'm sorry to disagree but PEG is the main component in antifreeze. It is also toxic. Every document I read about it clearly states it is toxic. When the FDA approved the drug several of the board expressed serious concerns about it's use. They suggested it be used only as a last resort because of it's toxic effects. This is far from a last resort situation. They are selling snake oil.
PEGs are not antifreeze. Antifreeze is primarily made of ethylene glycol, not polyethylene glycol. Any confusion may arise because the two are chemically related (as you can see by their similar names), but they have very, very different chemical properties and functions. Ethylene glycol, a much smaller molecule than most of the PEGs, is very toxic and can be extremely dangerous if ingested. Drinking ethylene glycol affects a variety of organ systems in the body and can cause serious illness or death. PEGs are not dangerous whereas ethylene glycol is extremely dangerous.
Hello, i am very sorry but i have to chime in here. For a couple reasons.
I am the wife spoken about.
Despite the fact that the doc treated us like vermin and charged us like .. i do not even know.. a new golf club? ... i have to correct a couple things.
See, what you do not know, is the papers the doc has given us.
The medication my husband is talking about is described IN THESE PAPERS as being stretched with ethylene glycol, but the thing you all discuss does not really matter. If it would help me i would even take Dr. Pepper ;) (i am German, i hate that stuff, very sorry again if that offends any of you). The list of side effects the paper contained included hair loss, liver and kidney failure, blindness, and .. death. So, yes, as the doc admitted, it is very toxic. I am not in any stage or condition that justifies that. On top of that, i would not be able to work, so i am sure they would get me to a point i NEED to be on medicare, just so SOMEONE pays the bills.
On top of the top of that the paper for melanoma they gave me says: This treatment is not proven to work in any efficient way or to even improve condition as melanoma does not react to it. It is intended for chronic hepatitis C and nothing else. So why is the doc putting me on a medication that does not help and is only to be used for severe cases in TRIAL for cancer, after my surgeon told me he THINKS he got it all and we just need to make sure i am covered?
And why do we get a bill - after we payed everything up front and all follow-up bills - AFTER i refused that chemo-treatment that is triple to quadruple the price we agreed upon before i even agreed to the first surgery? Scared to loose a cash cow?
So, please no offense, Don_P, insured or not-insured, this does not make any sense. But since you brought it up, i would like to answer to that part: I would love to be insured. Unfortunately the company that i work for in Canada does not offer that option and as we all know money is tight. I did not see myself (being 37) in a spot where i might need it. My fault. I could scream at my mirror for that... but as a house-builder's wife and as an immigrant i had other priorities. My fault on that too. But does it matter? I was thanks to family able to pay in cash (!) everything they asked for. Now that i refuse to pay more they changed the price after the fact on bills i already payed. I would have NEVER gone into surgery would i have known what i know now.
Insurance or no insurance.. i think that is not the problem this fine "hospital" confronted me with.
I am very sorry if anything i wrote offended anyone and i thank for the good wishes i received from you. I will keep my head up high and i will continue fighting. And with that i chime out again and hope i did not offend anyone.
My best wishes to all of you.
According to wikipedia...
Polyethylene glycol is the primary component in a type of antifreeze solution used in automobiles and boats as a low-toxicity alternative to the traditional highly poisonous ethylene glycol solutions used in standard antifreeze products. Some products using PEG are Sierra AntiFreeze[17] and various products carrying the Starbrite label.[18]
Note it says low-toxicity not non-toxic. Also note the list of side effects listed by my wife. Much the same as anti-freeze poisoning. Of course they are going to tell you it's safe so they can sell it but if you read the fine print is defiantly is not safe. I intentionally left out the full name of the drug.
Scott, I hope you and your wife continue to lead healthy lives. Stick to your guns on what you deem proper to put in your bodies, I wish more people did so.
As for the other, it's literally "one nation under fraud". That's the American way these days. If you had insurance, you would never even see the double or triple dip. Everyone just accepts theft and corruption and fraud everywhere they see it these days, I guess it is to be expected in a banana republic after all right?
Scott and Mel, first...I'm sorry for the medical issues. Hopefully you continue to heal!
I'm also self employed and had insurance until I made the decision to never see a Doctor again. I still have insurance on my wife though. It is expensive and the Hospitals gouge the insurance companies who in turn, gouge us.
By the end of the summer, I suspect most smaller contractors will be uninsured if they are now (Most aren't).
Don_P has some good characteristics. I try to remember them when he makes posts like that but in his defense, I don't think he was born in Va. That would explain some of it. He could be from New Hampshire c*
Last, let me echo what Muldoon said!
Mel and Scott
We are considering this next year if I retire (no company insurance)
http://www.samaritanministries.org/
prayers for your well being Mel
US health care is a racket -- as I have been pointing out here regularly
Do not pay the 5k bill. Call and tell them you prepaid for your surgery and they must waive an additional cost. Say it is your form of a BeechStreet agreement.
We already did that. The $8hr phone girl just acts clueless and refuses to let me talk to anyone else. The lady who made the agreement won't return my calls. I've requested a full accounting of this bill and all associated records. We will go monday and have her records sealed so nothing can be changed or accessed, even by them.
Scott & MelA, I am so sorry to hear about the problems you are having. It seems incomprehensible to me... and at a time when your wife does not need more stress!
The polyethylene glycol I've seen used is in Dulcolax & Miralax. It's PEG 3350 - I always kinda questioned whether it would be good for a person. There must be something different in the stuff the oncology "doc" recommended. He needs to retire, he has no business even talking to patients, let alone treating them!
I'm not familiar w/chemotherapy meds or other oncology meds. Glenn & I have discussed the issue & have both said we wouldn't take chemo.
Windpower mentioned http://www.samaritanministries.org/ It's worth checking out.
I'll say a prayer for you, MelA, also. And don't worry about offending anyone, I'm glad you felt free to speak your mind - that's a great thing about this forum, many of us speak our mind & we all remain friends. I wish you the best & for a quick resolution of this totally out-of-line situation.
SHAME ON THE HOSPITAL & DOCTOR!!! >:(
Quote from: ScottA on July 20, 2011, 06:08:24 PM
We already did that. The $8hr phone girl just acts clueless and refuses to let me talk to anyone else. The lady who made the agreement won't return my calls. I've requested a full accounting of this bill and all associated records. We will go monday and have her records sealed so nothing can be changed or accessed, even by them.
Write a certified letter explaing why you will not pay any additional money. Use the term "BAD FAITH" in this letter. Including who you have spoke to, how many messages you have left and how no one has returned your call. You must do this. Make sure the wife signs this. She is the patient and no one has to really talk to you because of privacy laws.
I finally got a supervisor on the phone today after threatening to call the hospital administrator. She acted very nice and seemed to believe me when I told her the story. She said she placed a hold on the account and was going to investigate my story. She asked me to give her a week to work on it. She said she would have been shocked if it happened to her. We'll see if this is just a stall tactic.
Sassy the doctor told us it was not chemo but after we read about it we discovered it most certainly is. The drug is not even for treating cancer but it has many of the same side effects as chemo. And yes death is really listed as a possible side effect. How stupid are people to take this crap?
Sorry for your wife's suffering, both the melanoma and the insult to injury nonsense afterwards. Your experience is a good reminder to the rest of us to question, question, question...then document everything said to you with time, date, and name(s.) Also, anytime someone makes you sign something, refuse to sign unless you are provided a copy. Good on ya' for sticking to your guns and following through; that's another area where the health care syndicate succeeds in wearing a lot of folks down to the point they just pay to stop the aggravation.
I received a bill for some $24K for the second jaw surgery. I knew it was wrong. A phone call that took about 12 minutes cleared it up as an error. If I had not questioned it who knows if a collection company would have got it. ??? Point is, not everything is a conspiracy. Anything people have anything to do with can have errors involved. I hope you get it worked out and that the melanoma has been dealt with. That's a nasty one, or can be.
As an aside; being self emplyed does not necessarily mean that one can not afford health insurance. We are basically self emplyed, we are employees of our own small corporation. This yesr we are the only emplyees as we have shortened operation hours a lot. Karen pays less than $200 a month for a pretty good plan. I was paying more (2.2X) but because of my previous history it was a good deal. I was money ahead every year for the past several years. The jaw is up over $125K at present. No way we could have paid that out of pocket and still retained all our "stuff"
Thanks again for all your nice words :)
Part of me wants to believe the supervisor lady is not lying. But i am burned now, i see treason around every corner as soon as a doc or doc employee is involved. In my honest opinion that is a total shame, i am just not sure yet weather to blame myself or the person on the other end of the line (the hospital). I think a human error is honestly out of question as this bill is partially full of stuff i did not even take or get. But i hope they proof me wrong. Seeing how high their bill is i must have died 3 times in surgery and they revived me and all 3 tissue samples must have went through 10 lab tests each one.
Any health insurance i ever pondered surely is beyond reach now, with THAT health history the monthly cost would not justify taking one... at least not at this point... and i hope it stays that way ^^
So i thank everyone for all the links and tips but i think i will trust in myself and in the greater powers when it comes to my health from now on ^^ (and eat more veggies). Hell, i healed two broken ankles and legs when i fell of the porch on our new house *cough* and i did not need a doc for that ;)
After all we are talking about bills here i already payed, but i admit i am debating in my mind to pay them again in the hope this stress stops (yeah i am a sheep). I admit the stress is getting to me, but i have a great employer company in my back, they even payed all hospital days as if i was working, almost makes me want to move to Canada, at least they have a good health care social system ^^. I just still try to figure out WHY, what did that hospital think they might gain, why burn me like that? Just because i said no thanks to their snake oil? I guess. I am starting to question that the last surgery was even needed.
MountainDon i did not say i couldn't afford it back then. I simply thought at my still "young" age i don't need it, ok, now i learned the lesson but too late. Now with this on my slate i can for sure not afford it anymore. And i am not even sure it would have helped. The treatment they forced - no sorry "proposed" to me, is not covered. Not at all. Insured or not, all of it would have to have been payed by me, unless i got too sick to work and social security would have had to chime in. Because the meds they wanted to kill - sorry, heal me with are not working on melanoma and i am not one of the cases the FDA approved the drug for.
Anyways, what gives ^^.
I will show that capital C and the docs what i am made out of. (And eat much more veggies...)
Thanks again for listening to my rants and for this forum and for you all. It is great.. i work on MMO games and am a forum moderator and this forum is totally different, it feels more... gentle? ^^ I would love to invite you all over for BBQ and Beer or tea if i could but i hope my shy thanks are enough ^^
MelA, welcome to this forum, I can feel the stress in your words. Sounds as if you are having hard time finding anything positive right now but, I also can tell you still have it in you.
I'm not the moderator here, not even close but, I know you are welcome to rant anytime you feel the need. Lots of us get a good one on quite often and share them liberally here.
Warning: Some of us may rant right back at you. We all give as good as we get and have some entertaining debates.
Mel I guess I misinterpreted. It can sometimes be a difficult choice when having to decide to pay the premiums for something like a health insurance policy.
I hope the billing and your health all work out in a positive manner.
Quick update on this. About a month ago we sent 3 certified letters to the hospital disputing the charges and demanding proof. Seems they decided we don't owe them any money after all. No proof was ever offered not even an itemized bill was sent as requested. They also didn't say it was a mistake. The balance just vanished. I'll let you decide on your own what happened.
Quote from: ScottA on August 31, 2011, 05:46:19 PM
Quick update on this. About a month ago we sent 3 certified letters to the hospital disputing the charges and demanding proof. Seems they decided we don't owe them any money after all. No proof was ever offered not even an itemized bill was sent as requested. They also didn't say it was a mistake. The balance just vanished. I'll let you decide on your own what happened.
A lot of the blame falls in the hands of programmers. That sounds like a cop-out, but corporate billing systems are so complex not even the auditors or CPA's can figure them out. The staff that works for the companies is also powerless. One of the by-products of Enron was Sarbanes-Oxley. The big boys have to comply with the new rules, and IT is a big part of the process. They outsource all the programming to India or China. The same internal controls that are built into the system to prevent fraud also make it hard for the guys running the system to correct mistakes. It is a huge problem, that costs the country billions. Ironic that the fix costs the country more than the original problem. I could write a thesis - a book even - on what I have learned as an insider. It would scare you.
We were double-paid by a few years back. It was a pretty large check - ~$10,000. We returned it. The company that paid it - a Fortune 250 company - sent it right back. I spoke directly with the Controller of the unit that had overpaid. The story: They had installed a new system, and had just been certified. It was the middle of audit season. If I sent it back and the returned transaction was picked during testing, the auditors would know their system had an internal control weakness. Since they had already made their audit selections for the the year, and the original transaction was not picked, she (Controller) felt as though they were in the clear. The check was large enough to cause an IT testing problem, but too small for financial statement purposes. During a year-end audit, outside auditors pick a large sample to test. Later, right before they issue the audit, another sample is selected - subsequent testing. In April, they pick another batch for the first quarter. For a public company that ends the fiscal year in December, January to April is non-stop auditors. First the 10-K, then a 10-Q. I suggested we just hold it and apply it as a credit against a future transaction. No dice. Her system had built-in safeguards to detect that kind of thing from happening. It would have given a flag to the auditors. I did not want it, because I have my own auditors to worry about. She elevated the problem to some VP guy, who called me and asked me very nicely to just deposit the money. I was not comfortable just keeping the money, so I recorded it as a liability. Last year, we were having a Board meeting, and we decided to just recognize it as revenue. That company gave us $10,000 because they were more afraid of the Sarbanes- Oxley penalty than they were losing the money. And their system was so complex there was no way for her to take the money back. That is crazy.
Anyway, I'm glad it all worked out, and hope your wife recovers quickly.
Quote from: ScottA on August 31, 2011, 05:46:19 PM
Quick update on this. About a month ago we sent 3 certified letters to the hospital disputing the charges and demanding proof. Seems they decided we don't owe them any money after all. No proof was ever offered not even an itemized bill was sent as requested. They also didn't say it was a mistake. The balance just vanished. I'll let you decide on your own what happened.
This is good news, and I hope it is followed by more. Be well!
So glad to hear things worked out... hopefully you are feeling better & the stress level has decreased.