"How to Buy Land Very Cheaply"

[Pallas]

Hello all, this is my very first posting to the forum after much time lurking

I searched for a reference to this article by Neil Shelton (http://homestead.org/NeilShelton/HowToBuyLand/VeryCheaply.htm) but only saw one mention of it many years ago, so please excuse me if I try to revive the discussion once more.

In a nutshell: I am a 30yr who has rented all my life and have always wanted to build my own house on my own land. As is probably the case with many of you, I began my search with much enthusiasm and believing that my savings would give me enough momentum to get at least something small and add on as I can afford. However, as I researched more (much on these forums) I became more dismayed on the reality regarding land development/improvements/permits/etc. I think I have a good idea on the scope of actual construction, but property/land variables are so different by locality, that it now seems impossible for me to find something that wouldn't empty my bank account, even before all improvements are in.

So, back to the link: the author basically lays out the strategy of finding unused land that is not on the market but which may belong to people who may not place much value in or have no use for (city dwellers who inherited it, or others who may find it to be a tax burden). I've gone as far as actually looking through the GIS tax parcel data of the area I'm interested in (upstate New York with reasonable commute to the city), and have indeed come across lots that are owned by people in very far away addresses and have been vacant for years/decades. I wonder - have any of you made any private offers to landowners, and do you think this strategy is worthwhile? There are very few land listings in this area, and the price is around 40k per acre at the low end... I could maybe swallow that for the sake of the location, but after well/septic/driveway/etc. it definitely becomes an out of reach prospect.

Any feedback or experiences you may have would be of great help!

[NathanS]

I could spend all day writing a response to this. I just bought 24 acres of good land in the southern tier of upstate NY.

I'm not going to bother reading the article you linked, because I'm sick and tired of real estate. It's a huge headache. My gut reaction is that article is probably a load of BS. Property taxes aren't cheap up here, and they tend to jack them up higher on out-of-towners. Someone owning 40 acres will get a tax bill, with their tax assessment (value of land), for several thousand bucks. If they're paying the bills, they know it's worth more than $100 an acre.

The land I bought is about 4 hours from NYC. Still, I would say that 80% of land up here is owned by people in the city, or PA farmers that scored some cash with the fracking riot down in PA. These people have lots of money, and think their land is an 'investment.'

Land is not an investment up here. What's it good for at this point? Everything is subdivided out the wazzoo, you aren't starting some big farm. No one that actually lives up here has any money. And guess what else? Banks don't finance land, or owner-builder projects. It's not good cash crop land. The few farmers that are left live milk check to milk check. Land up here sells for 1000-2000 an acre. Price depends on how accessible and buildable it is.

You'll find some people asking much more for it. Mainly, sub-dividers and rich city slickers trying to sell their subdivided 'investment.' I never found anything close to people owning acreage and wanting to give it away - and I spent a disgusting amount of time researching this business. Most people want too much.

My experience is that most realtors lie, and most of the good land is not for sale.

How to proceed? You need to actually drive around. That is how I found my property. Use google earth pro to look at parcels (slope, shape, wooded/cleared, water, etc). Draw the property lines out (http://www.sdgnys.com/project/image-mate-online/  for tax records and sale prices, also this will generally link to the tax maps). Use USGS soil survey for soil type. Look at the national wetlands maps to see if you have any mapped wet areas. Double check DEC doesn't put it in wetland that prevents building. Go to the county clerk office to look up the deeds to see if any rights were sold off. Condition any offers on perking for a septic system (either standard or shallow trench). Check out the neighbors. If it's next to state land make sure it doesn't allow snow mobiling/ 4 wheeling (unless you don't mind very loud noises). This is not a comprehensive list

You could /very carefully/ look into county real property tax auctions if you're not in a rush. Sometimes decent land will pop up in those, but the county will give you a quitclaim (aka tax) deed, which means you will need to file a quiet title motion in the courthouse to clear the deed (and make it marketable again). As long as you verify there are no liens, it's a matter of time and money. It takes about a year to clear the title.

I'm all over the place right now. I hope this helps some. Good luck on your search.

PS- I didn't mean to come off bitter. This is some of the most beautiful land in the world, and I have spent extended amounts of time traveling. If you put in the effort, you can have a slice of paradise.

[Pallas]

NathanS - thank you so much for the very thoughtful reply. It sounds like you've seen this process all the way through! I don't think you sound bitter at all, just like a guy at the finish line of a very long process, and I really appreciate your candor.

The links you posted and tips on checking out tax maps and assessments are all things which I have been doing for the past month, so I'm glad I seem to be somewhat on the right path. There's a whole lot more I don't know about (which is why this large unknown scope about land buying intimidates me so much). The problem for me is that even if I find land that is suitable, like you said, it's not for sale. The listings here are few and far between.

I would gladly pay 2,5 or 10K for an acre compared to what I'm seeing here. I just want a couple of acres for a small homestead I can still (reasonably) commute from. When you said to drive around and look for land, does that mean the land you found wasn't initially for sale? Or that lots are not usually listed in the realtor system, just posted locally? If there are parcels out there that I'm missing I'll gladly get behind the wheel - but what do you think of approaching owners with private offers on land you find adequate and vacant, but not for sale?

Thank you so much again!

[MountainDon]

If the situation in NY is the same as it has been in NM, vacant rural property may not be on any MLS listings. Ours was being handled by an agent who only had it listed on his personal site. We got lucky and found the website and hence our property. But if we would have driven about the area we would have also seen his signs with arrows pointing here and there.

[hpinson]

One suggestion -- if you are willing to take on the work - look for distressed properties.   My experience was similar to Don's - property listed on a private site, not MLS.   In my case, the fundamentals were there, under a very ugly mess of collapsed or uninhabitable structures and a lot of trash.  People would come see the property, and run away screaming.  It had been on the market a long time, and a very low offer was accepted to move it.  It has been a lot of (mostly fun) work to restore the property.

Things must have changed in upstate New York. I remember in the 1980s it being very affordable, especially west of the Adirondacks.  The DEC, Wetland, and ADK Park regulations were formidable even then.

Look up some of Adam Roby's posts. I believe he was in a similar situation, in the same area, and eventually may have found something.  His process is instructive.

[knopfarrow]

I literally "stumbled on" my distressed property surfing the map on Zillow.com

After inquiry through my realtor-friend who knew the listing agent, I found out the property owner was in the hospital and not expected to survive more than a month or so. His wife was liquidating as many assets as possible so they wouldn't have to be dealt with by an executor.  The property had been reduced in price over several months to 50% of its county-appraised value.  There are some issues to work through in terms of water rights, but others have built near the property facing the same issues in the last 5 years. I had to act quickly, but I'm really glad I did.

(BTW - I should mention that although we paid only 50% of the appraised value for the property, we paid what the couple was asking at the time. I don't subscribe to taking advantage of people in dire straights.)

[Adam Roby]

In in the northern part of NY state bordering the Canadian border.

Many people may be inclined to sell to you if you pop in and talk to them.  My buddy a few minutes up the road did just that last fall.  His Dad owned a 5 acre plot of land and he wanted to be next to his Dad.  He went through the tax papers and found the name of the owner, then he and his Dad paid them a visit and he purchased a 12 acre lot next to his Dad's as a result.  The lady was not really in the market to sell, but as soon as she started to subdivide the lot she wound up selling a big chunk of the rest at the same time.  Sometimes timing is everything.

If you are willing to wait (years) and do a lot of hard work, you can do what I did.  Big forestry companies buy up huge chunks of land to deforest.  They made all their money with the trees they cut down and later sell that same land for next to nothing in many cases.  The land usually looks like crap, but if you can see the jewel in the rough as I did, you can get a nice parcel on the cheap.  I had my choice of acreage and chose a 7.5 acre lot with a brook running through the center.  I paid a whopping $6k for the lot.  The agent I was dealing with couldn't pass up the deal and bought the remaining 17.5 acres adjoining my lot and another 50 acre parcel across the street.  He just listed a 5 acre lot behind mine which is much lower and wetter for $10k.  We'll see if it sells at that price, but I am sure I would not have found such a deal without a lot of research, waiting, determination and willingness to work with what I found. 

I think the recommendations in the book have merit. 

[NathanS]

NathanS - thank you so much for the very thoughtful reply. It sounds like you've seen this process all the way through! I don't think you sound bitter at all, just like a guy at the finish line of a very long process, and I really appreciate your candor.

The links you posted and tips on checking out tax maps and assessments are all things which I have been doing for the past month, so I'm glad I seem to be somewhat on the right path. There's a whole lot more I don't know about (which is why this large unknown scope about land buying intimidates me so much). The problem for me is that even if I find land that is suitable, like you said, it's not for sale. The listings here are few and far between.

I would gladly pay 2,5 or 10K for an acre compared to what I'm seeing here. I just want a couple of acres for a small homestead I can still (reasonably) commute from. When you said to drive around and look for land, does that mean the land you found wasn't initially for sale? Or that lots are not usually listed in the realtor system, just posted locally? If there are parcels out there that I'm missing I'll gladly get behind the wheel - but what do you think of approaching owners with private offers on land you find adequate and vacant, but not for sale?

Thank you so much again!

The land I found was for sale by owner - he had a sign up. He actually owned 3 tax parcels, and we bought the acreage. It took about 4 months for him to part with the land before selling the house. We paid 44k for 24 acres. The land has almost 2000 feet of road frontage, flat with southern exposure, 10 acres of mature hardwoods, and is 90% surrounded by a state forest that doesn't allow motorized vehicles. I think it was a fair price, but the seller was definitely aware that this was good land for the area. Part of my thinking is also that we can put in a driveway on this land for ~2k, where some of the other properties we'd spend 10-20k to get a driveway in, and then need specialized equipment to keep it clear in the winter (and don't forget cost of upkeep). The cost of sitework is a very important consideration I think.. it can be as expensive as the house in some cases.

In our area there is one big farm specialty realtor left that doesn't list on MLS, but everyone has a website now. I don't think it's a bad idea at all to approach owners to see if they're willing to sell. In this area some farmers might be willing to subdivide a small piece off, because they have a hard time keeping up with property taxes. The other non-MLS resource is the subdividers, but they will charge 2-3-4x market prices and advertise in NYC and PA.

I was able to pull all sold properties in the townships I was interested in from 2010 and forward. That was probably the most important thing I did in the whole search. I looked at every property on google earth, and the cheap ones seemed cheap for a reason. Huge power lines bisecting the land, extremely steep, no easy access, a few no access at all, swamp, or other problems. The only other crazy cheap sale prices I saw were from the tax auctions.

In the end, what it came down to for me, was that I want land now, and I want to build soon. I think it's possible to find good land for cheap, but you might have to wait years. I just don't think there's a huge volume of it changing hands.

Not sure how well this table will line up - but here are all the sold properties since 2010 in the 4 townships near where we bought, between 20-30 acres. Not a big list.. especially when you look at who was buying and selling.

Acreage   Price     Per Acre   Comments
21.45   72,000    3,357    subdivider
20.83   67,000    3,217    bought by religious group
20.28   65,000    3,205    subdivider
20.52   58,900    2,870    subdivider
22.29   55,000    2,467    property near where we bought, not as nice
24.52   50,000    2,039    amish, trying to resell since last August, asking $1835 an acre
25.00   49,900    1,996    subdivider
27.00   47,250    1,750    bought by dairy farmer, on highway
23.00   34,000    1,478    
20.46   29,900    1,461    
20.76   30,000    1,445    
24.88   32,500    1,306    
30.00   32,000    1,067    Farm realtor bought and resold in november at 57.4k
26.03   27,500    1,056    

[Dave Sparks]

My list is pretty simple. #1 is you have to love the place!

A road where a propane truck could get in during August.

Either offgrid or really close to power.

Less than a 30 minute drive to town or the job.

A place to park a trailer or RV while you build. No more than 1 winter in a trailer to build a lockable structure.

A source of firewood and decent rainfall.

[Rys]

Love your list Dave!
#1 is SO important!

[Pallas]

Thank you all so much for all of the great input, which I'm putting into practice in my search. I do understand that patience is key, but I certainly want to make sure I'm at least on the right path.

I drove around the area I'm looking in this past weekend - and all of your advise rang true: cheap land is cheap for a reason. Some narrow, hilly lots, and one that was basically all pond    I didn't find any local/owner listings that weren't already on MLS, so if there is land being sold off-market, there's not much sign of it locally...

I've come to see that affordable land will be really difficult to find in the Hudson Valley with reasonable distance to New York City, however, all of this talk on subdividers gave me a new angle for my search. So my next questions would be:

* How likely is it that I can approach a seller of a large lot (20~ acres) and offer to buy a smaller bit (2-3 acres) at a price slightly higher than the average price per acre? I think one of my problems is that I'm looking at (relatively) smaller acreage, so the price will be higher on average.

* Would this mean they would have to subdivide this? I've read some information on residential subdivisions and the restrictions these bring, but I'm not sure if this would apply here? Would I always be somehow tied to the original owner as a subdivided piece of the original land?

Thanks again for all of your great responses - this place is really a great vault of hard-earned knowledge and experience!

[MountainDon]

Remember too that not everything that is for sale is buildable. 

[Dave Sparks]

I doubt they would pay more money to the county or parish to sub divide,  It may be zoned for that amount, but you can always ask?

[hpinson]

Might I suggest you look northeast of Troy, up near where southern Vermont starts. It's a little farther, more like 3.5 hours from NYC, but it is a beautiful area, and perpetually depressed in terms of land and housing prices.  Prices have seemingly not changed much since when I lived near there (over in North Adams, MA in the 1980's). A quick MLS search shows quite a bit for sale for example around Hoosick Falls.

For example:

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Hoosick-Falls_NY/type-land?cid=sem_google_desktopdsasale_cpc_google&medium=tsa&gclid=CLrL5sHt08cCFQktaQodudYL5g&gclsrc=aw.ds

As far as subdividing, that would be up to the seller.  Quite a few towns have restrictions on subdividing - minimum acerages to outright not allowing it - as they want to retain a certain character.  Check with the town hall or county clerk.

[MountainDon]

Here in my county in NM if someone wants to sell off lots of less than 5 acres from a larger piece subdivision rules apply that increase the costs to the seller.

[rick91351]

Thank you all so much for all of the great input, which I'm putting into practice in my search. I do understand that patience is key, but I certainly want to make sure I'm at least on the right path.

I drove around the area I'm looking in this past weekend - and all of your advise rang true: cheap land is cheap for a reason. Some narrow, hilly lots, and one that was basically all pond    I didn't find any local/owner listings that weren't already on MLS, so if there is land being sold off-market, there's not much sign of it locally...

I've come to see that affordable land will be really difficult to find in the Hudson Valley with reasonable distance to New York City, however, all of this talk on subdividers gave me a new angle for my search. So my next questions would be:

* How likely is it that I can approach a seller of a large lot (20~ acres) and offer to buy a smaller bit (2-3 acres) at a price slightly higher than the average price per acre? I think one of my problems is that I'm looking at (relatively) smaller acreage, so the price will be higher on average.

* Would this mean they would have to subdivide this? I've read some information on residential subdivisions and the restrictions these bring, but I'm not sure if this would apply here? Would I always be somehow tied to the original owner as a subdivided piece of the original land?

Thanks again for all of your great responses - this place is really a great vault of hard-earned knowledge and experience!

Here in Idaho in a county I use to live in.  If you bought a lot before it was subdivided you were not included in to the subdivision.  No covenant agreements with the subdivision unless you went to enter in to them and ask  to join......

Splitting a few acres around here is like crazy $$$.  County charges big bucks to just draw a little line on the map.  Funny they even charge bigger bucks to erase a line.  (About twice as much to erase as to draw.)      Then there is the survey and then there is the title insurance.  Then there is the meeting with the county planning  and the highway district and then back to the county line drawers and the survey filler and all those offices.  All this to just split off two acres to build on and I already own the property I split.  (It is part of the ranch we own.)  We were out $4000 or $5000 and that was with Central District  Health just passing it with out looking at it.  They already permitted the tank and drain field.  That would have been another $1,000. 

Here in my county in NM if someone wants to sell off lots of less than 5 acres from a larger piece subdivision rules apply that increase the costs to the seller.

Here there are also restrictions on how small you can go down to.  If I wanted to someone I think it is currently like 20 Acres minimum and a restriction on how many splits.     

[hpinson]

Oh - Rick reminded me. If there are covenants on the subdivision, and especially if it has an HOA, run away screaming...   

[Dave Sparks]

Always funny to talk about how the county does business. I like to think that they would not be there if they knew what they were doing. Always good to remember some of the lines from Spinal Tap.

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

[Adam Roby]

[Thread-Jack]

Buddy of mine used to drive waitresses crazy.  He'd order a pizza and before the waitress would leave he'd say...

"Sorry, can you cut that in 4 instead of 6, I'm not that hungry"

They would always say "sure thing"... then pause... look confused for a second, then look at us cracking up and realize they'd just been had. 

[/Thread-Jack]

[NathanS]

Thank you all so much for all of the great input, which I'm putting into practice in my search. I do understand that patience is key, but I certainly want to make sure I'm at least on the right path.

I drove around the area I'm looking in this past weekend - and all of your advise rang true: cheap land is cheap for a reason. Some narrow, hilly lots, and one that was basically all pond    I didn't find any local/owner listings that weren't already on MLS, so if there is land being sold off-market, there's not much sign of it locally...

I've come to see that affordable land will be really difficult to find in the Hudson Valley with reasonable distance to New York City, however, all of this talk on subdividers gave me a new angle for my search. So my next questions would be:

* How likely is it that I can approach a seller of a large lot (20~ acres) and offer to buy a smaller bit (2-3 acres) at a price slightly higher than the average price per acre? I think one of my problems is that I'm looking at (relatively) smaller acreage, so the price will be higher on average.

* Would this mean they would have to subdivide this? I've read some information on residential subdivisions and the restrictions these bring, but I'm not sure if this would apply here? Would I always be somehow tied to the original owner as a subdivided piece of the original land?

Thanks again for all of your great responses - this place is really a great vault of hard-earned knowledge and experience!

Subdivision regs will vary by township. I know some townships up my way will zone everything buildable as long as there are 2+ acres (with DEC, perc, and deed permitting - I also think the Chesapeake watershed is a lot less regulated than the Hudson). But again, it will vary by township. I think that up here the most expensive part of subdividing would be hiring a surveyor. I have read some town meeting minutes where the board will just (seemingly) quickly approve the subdivision of a parcel.

How far from NYC are you looking to be? Do you need to commute in 5 days a week, or is it more like once a month? The prices fall dramatically once you get over that 3 hour driving mark.

[Pallas]

Thank you all for the additional insight. I've looked into the subdivision restrictions in the areas I'm looking in, and it looks like 2 acres would be an acceptable size - however, the cost or willingness of the seller to subdivide is another issue. I'm guessing these would be high, given the high regulation of Hudson Valley counties.

I wonder if I could even approach an existing owner who has unused acres (as per the Google Earth mapped tax parcels) and ask him to sell me a portion of his vacant land?

To answer your question NathanS, I would have to commute 5 days/week to NYC, though maybe I can negotiate 3 days - but still very regularly. The furthest out north I'd like is 2 hours (where I'm looking since I can't afford any closer). I know this is my main obstacle to finding affordable land - even the land assessments for taxes average about 10k - 20k per acre!

Therefore, I think I will try other posters' advise and look at property auctions/county-acquired land. I'm not in a big rush, and I can always learn more before pulling the trigger, so I'll give myself a longer timeline to see if anything worthwhile pops up - if I still don't see anything in a year or so, I'll allow myself to be impatient again.

Does that sound like a good strategy?  I'm starting to get a bit overwhelmed...

[Dave Sparks]

Why do you have to be tied to NYC or NY for that matter? Thinking outside the box. What do you do for a living?


Nigel Tufnel: [on what he would do if he couldn't be a rock star] Well, I suppose I could, uh, work in a shop of some kind, or... or do, uh, freelance, uh, selling of some sort of, uh, product. You know...
Marty DiBergi: A salesman?
Nigel Tufnel: A salesman, like maybe in a, uh, haberdasher, or maybe like a, uh, um... a chapeau shop or something. You know, like, "Would you... what size do you wear, sir?" And then you answer me.
Marty DiBergi: Uh... seven and a quarter.
Nigel Tufnel: "I think we have that." See, something like that I could do.
Marty DiBergi: Yeah... you think you'd be happy doing something like-...
Nigel Tufnel: "No; we're all out. Do you wear black?" See, that sort of thing I think I could probably... muster up.
Marty DiBergi: Do you think you'd be happy doing that?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, I don't know - wh-wh-... what're the hours?

[John Raabe]

Does that chapeau come in eleven?

[NathanS]

Thank you all for the additional insight. I've looked into the subdivision restrictions in the areas I'm looking in, and it looks like 2 acres would be an acceptable size - however, the cost or willingness of the seller to subdivide is another issue. I'm guessing these would be high, given the high regulation of Hudson Valley counties.

I wonder if I could even approach an existing owner who has unused acres (as per the Google Earth mapped tax parcels) and ask him to sell me a portion of his vacant land?

To answer your question NathanS, I would have to commute 5 days/week to NYC, though maybe I can negotiate 3 days - but still very regularly. The furthest out north I'd like is 2 hours (where I'm looking since I can't afford any closer). I know this is my main obstacle to finding affordable land - even the land assessments for taxes average about 10k - 20k per acre!

Therefore, I think I will try other posters' advise and look at property auctions/county-acquired land. I'm not in a big rush, and I can always learn more before pulling the trigger, so I'll give myself a longer timeline to see if anything worthwhile pops up - if I still don't see anything in a year or so, I'll allow myself to be impatient again.

Does that sound like a good strategy?  I'm starting to get a bit overwhelmed...

Man, 4 hours commuting a day is brutal. I don't mean to go to off topic, but my wife and I lived in the NYC metro area for 3 years, and the best decision we ever made was to leave. It's funny we wound up back in NY, but upstate is a much, much, different experience than NYC. Just about as polar opposite as anywhere I've been.

You might want to consider employment opportunities in more rural areas, if you like the country.

For the areas you're interested in, don't forget to search for 'exclusive listings,' as there could be an agent or two that doesn't list on MLS.

Also, I never had a whole lot of luck meeting an honest realtor, but you could consider talking to a 'buyers agent' that could help with the searching. That being said, I would never, ever, ever sign an agreement to have an agent represent you, or pay them money ahead of time for them to represent you. I once called a realtor about a property he had a sign on, and he never gave me any info on the property (still listed to this day) and instead just explained to me for a sum of $xxxx (because he "like to think his time is worth something") he could represent me in helping to find property.

[Dave Sparks]

Does that chapeau come in eleven?

Sorry John, these only go to 10!