This weekend I will have the roof sheathing completed on my project. I can immediately tar paper, flash and shingle the place, if I so choose. But I was wondering about the roof penetrations for my wood stove, and vent pipes and if I should decide on those right now and work these in or wait. This is a 12:12 pitch roof over 12 foot high walls on a slope, so looking down is not for the faint of heart!
I have a general idea of where these will go, so if it makes sense to land on a decision and take action, I am prepared to do so.
Thanks,
mt
Yes put in your vent pipes (plumbing waste vents)as well. Fart fans , kitchen hood vent etc, if they vent out the roof. Skylight curbs as well.
You can do it in reverse but it's more work in a way , you make it a remodel / cut in.
PEG mentioned:
QuoteFart fans
Note: My wife saves money and energy by using recycled
Bush/Cheney '04 posters. Keeps one right beside her chair. It is about 3 feet from mine.
Couldn't (wouldn't) argue with Peg..ever. What I did was maybe not the best but, I used Studer valves and eliminated vent pipes completely. I also used double wall vent for my fireplace and a 90 degree angle out the side wall. Dryer and 'fart' vents went out the gable and side wall as well. Reason is that I used a metal roof and didn't want any penetrations in it at all. I've used this same approach successfully so far without problem.
What say you all?
Okie Bob
Hey BoB. Nice to see you.
I think the Studer valves are a great idea. Seems they are not allowed totally everywhere. Also seems they may be allowed if you don't call them mechanical vents also.
It wouldn't hurt to ask the official if they will allow it though.
QuoteCouldn't (wouldn't) argue with Peg..ever. What I did was maybe not the best but, I used Studer valves and eliminated vent pipes completely. I also used double wall vent for my fireplace and a 90 degree angle out the side wall. Dryer and 'fart' vents went out the gable and side wall as well. Reason is that I used a metal roof and didn't want any penetrations in it at all. I've used this same approach successfully so far without problem.
What say you all?
Okie Bob
Good idea Bob the not argueing part ;)
Your thinking is fine about sidewall venting , some people would pitch a bitch about it , others wouldn't mind , [highlight]generally[/highlight] we like to go out the roof , much less visible , but we've vented about every way a guy can , soffits sometimes , foundation vent wells etc , there is no hard and fast I was just throwing out ideas of what CAN go out the roof.
On the studder valves we limit there use , they are costly , and they are mechincal , so they can break . Mostly used in kitchen islands that have ventable fixtures ,dish washers , sinks etc .
I guess I shoulda throw a MTL into my first post as in More Than Likely ::) More than one way to skin a cat , or vent a (insert name of fixture) ;D
Don't you still need at least one main vent that exhausts out to open air, even if you are using mechanical vents?
QuoteDon't you still need at least one main vent that exhausts out to open air, even if you are using mechanical vents?
I understood it to be that way as there is some need for air to move both ways in the system - not just in but out also. Think what happens when a flush wants to go down the pipe - some of it may want to push rather than suck and I don't think the Studers or mechanical vents allow for that.
I don't think thats right the two vent sort a thing. I'm not a plumber but I do know of places where only a sink is located and only one vent is required . So I'd say no one vent can also serve more than one fixture , as in sink and shower , heck I think it can serve a lot more as plumbers tie the vent pipes together in the attic to reduce the # of vent pipes going out all the time.
I do know a vent pipe can run level for a long way as long as it goes up at every turn / fitting , we've run a long ways horiz. the key is to insure you go up never downward at all turns and change of direction. There are codes to how far but it's longer than most houses we are talking about on this forum.
I'm not talking about pairing up vents from different fixtures.. I just thought that code stated you need to have your main stack vented out to the open air. I thought it was to let out sewer/septic gas..
Also to prevent traps from being sucked dry as the water goes down to the tank - a siphon breaker.
Off the top of my head - haven't done it much for a while, but smaller vents can be used and are approved for most fixtures -- a minimum size - toilet is 2" min. as I recall.
You don't have to have one major big one but all smaller vent's size combined must equal or exceed the cross sectional area of the main waste pipe going to the tank meaning the are of the 3" or 4".
Ernie I don't follow ya . And like I said I ain't a plumber, they make to much money I couldn't stand that ;D
But I think your main stack idea is also wrong as a vent serving a bathroom would only serve those fixtures in that bath so I don't understand the "main vent " idea . Each vent is doing it's own thing for it's own fixtures , so I don't get the main vent thing.
A studer vent is only venting the fixture it is on , it sucks air in only to allow the fixture to vent I believe ,it's basically a one way check valve.
I could very well be wrong on that. :-[
Plumber are smart eh ;D
Yes, we are very grateful to our smart plumbers. :) But, regardless of how intelligent they are, I'm too stubborn to hire one, so I'd better figure out the basics..
From what I've read (or at least, from what I think I remember reading...), you have a buildup of sewer gases in your septic system, and they need a way to get out. There's always condensation on the inside of your vent pipe on a cold day, indicating that some amount of moisture and air is coming up out of the vent, and not all is getting sucked in when you flush a toilet. I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me... If that says anything. :)
Depends, PEG, Depends. :)
You can use a main stack and other vents can all terminate into it as long as the waste goes down and the vent goes up - they can tee into it. Waste water cannot pass over a vent (wet venting) except in limited (usually controversial) applications. I just try to never do it to not have a problem.
If the main vent stack is as large as the waste pipe exiting the building to the septic it could be the only pipe used for venting. Depends on the house layout as to whether that is practical or not.
Many times multiple smaller vents are used to make it easier to get through the framing.
I'm not a real professional plumber but have designed and installed plumbing for 6 complete houses and several smaller re-models - offices etc. Even passed code and beat an inspection official on the plumbing because I knew the code better than he and his bosses did. I changed the way Fresno county was OK'ing pipe within 12" of the surface because they had been wrong for 20 years or more. Needless to say I didn't make a lot of points with the field inspector, but his boss actually thought I was pretty sharp to find that. ;D I wouldn't give in and be wrong when I knew I was right. >:(
Well you ARE Ernest T . Bass ain't ya ;D
QuoteYes, we are very grateful to our smart plumbers. :) But, regardless of how intelligent they are, I'm too stubborn to hire one, so I'd better figure out the basics..
From what I've read (or at least, from what I think I remember reading...), you have a buildup of sewer gases in your septic system, and they need a way to get out. There's always condensation on the inside of your vent pipe on a cold day, indicating that some amount of moisture and air is coming up out of the vent, and not all is getting sucked in when you flush a toilet. I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me... If that says anything. :)
I think you have a pretty good handle on it. :)
Methane - and probably more - is created in the tank. Also for the period immediately after a fixture drains or is flushed the level rises a bit as there is more liquid in the tank until it goes out into the drain field and is absorbed by the soil.
QuoteI changed the way Fresno county was OK'ing pipe within 12" of the surface because they had been wrong for 20 years or more.
Is that a drain buried outside? Our current (read, temporary and not associated with our new home) main drain is 1/2 out of the ground where it leaves the house and never froze up last winter.. We plan on completely burying our new line, but we won't be able to go a foot deep unless we berm it up..
Yes - I had a place where due to grade it was necessary to make the drain leave the house foundation at about 8" under the ground. The inspector told me anything less than 12"underground had to be cast iron.
Not wanting to buy cast iron and fittings I told him code didn't say that and he would have to show me the rule. He went back - had a meeting with the bosses and other inspectors and they found I was correct - pipe approved for use within walls can be used anywhere - even up to the top of the ground. If it was SDR35 or something he would have been right but standard ABS was code approved. I got an apology from the boss and an approval and sneer from the inspector. :)
Okay Guys, now you have me wondering if I made a mistake not having a vent thru my roof anywhere? I only used Studder valves and had a Master Plummer give me the go ahead. Could it be that I am not on a septic tank that makes a difference? We have a community sewer system which has a sump tank connected to the old septic tank. A pump lives in the sump tank with a level control on it and it's covered but open to the outdoors. Every so often, we do get a slight sniff of sewer gas when conditions are just right. Not that bad and doesn't last anytime at all.
I've experience NO problems in my plumbing in the garage apt and we are not living in the house yet so the jury is still out.
Tell me I did good! (PLEASE)
Okie Bob
The only time I think you may experience a problem is if you try to flush a great big one with lots of paper and plunging action is necessitated -- possibly the pressure of the air needing to move but not having a place to go could cause a problem. :-/Don't ask me how I know. ::)
OK - I have one line I was going to put a vent on but havent yet as it is outside a wall -- even planned that way.
BoB - I would say if it's not broke -- don't fix it. I doubt you will see traps sucked dry as your studers will take care of that. The only thing I would watch for is possible problems from pressure build up - slow flushing etc. as the studers let air in but not out if I am thinking right. I also always thought studers were a great way to go except they don't allow air to go out.
As Andrew mentioned - the tank may still build pressure as there is going to be gas. Even one vent to the top could alleviate that problem. Note that it needs to go above the roof as it can come out and settle around the house or under the eaves etc. and is flamable. I have lit it previous to tank processing. ;D
I dug out my 2003 (latest edition) Michigan Residential Code book... Now some codes allow air admittance valves and some don't. Ours does, but section P3114.7 regarding air valves states:
Within each plumbing system, a mini-
mum of one stack vent or vent stack
shall extend outdoors to the open air.
Maybe, because you are "sharing" you sewer with other plumbing systems that probably do have open vents, you wouldn't necessarily need one yourself? Idk...
The statement in your book is based on the same thoughts I have about it. Air movement and pressure relief as you stated.
I think BoB's would work best with at least one vent - even a small one to the outside free air. The Studer valves will prevent sucking the traps dry on the branch circuits.
Since it's too late to make changes now, I guess I'll just wait and see what happens. Also, it may be that the community system I'm on will give me the relief I need as per your comment. It will take a huge effort to install a stack vent at this point, all walls are painted and would require tearing out.
Hope it works!
Okie Bob
PS: thanks Glenn, as always.
I hope you find your relief soon, BoB. :)
Glenn, I don't care what anybody says, that was funny!!
Okie Bob
It takes a special man to understand some of my jokes, BoB and you are right up there at the top off the throne with the best of them. :)
See you did it again!! Good thing we don't live close to each other, wouldn't get any work done!
We'd probably have to build a two holer so we could be multitasking. :)