It has only just begun

Redoverfarm · January 05, 2013, 03:17:53 PM

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/04/Dems-push-eight-bills-gun-control

Huge29 · January 06, 2013, 03:48:54 AM

Isn't that a Carpenter's song? I just can not believe how anyone in sane state of mind could think that any such measure would do any good. I can appreciate wanting to do something as a natural knee jerk reaction, but to try again what has already proven to not work....something about the definition of insanity.

January 06, 2013, 09:25:01 AM

Good.

Carla_M · January 06, 2013, 10:57:00 AM

Like muldoon says, Ajax is an ass.

Unfortunately there are large numbers of people with his or her mindset.

Redoverfarm · January 06, 2013, 11:24:29 AM

Laws enacted on gun control can be equated with that of locking your doors. They are locked "to keep an honest man honest". Anyone that wants to get in will. Laws restricting guns will only work for those that are law biding and will have little or no affect on those who are not. The problem lays far deeper in society than gun control to prevent such incidents experienced recently. Of course that is my opinion. Thanks John for allowing me to express it.

January 06, 2013, 11:50:02 AM

Ajax seems to be as most of that mind set. And as an old advertisement for Ajax he wants to clean America like a white tornado.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vur_Mg1yffg

Funny the FBI reports more killed from clubbings and stabbings each year than rifles. But they have this mind set that the world will be a better place if we just march in lock step with the wishes of a government. The wish is that they be armed and us not. By the way Ajax I feel that is the reasoning and the only reason behind this movement not the benevolence of a governments concern with shootings. If they were so concerned they would park a squad of their Homeland Security in every school and every shopping mall.

How many innocent people are killed each year from drunk drivers? Where is the Government concern there?

How many each year are killed on Americas Railroads by either trespassing or crossing accidents? (Surprisingly it is about 50 - 50 now.) Again where is the Governments concern there?

SO really Ajax why are they really wanting the American peoples firearms?

Next question are you real? Are you bigger than a bread box or some computer generated personage or drone that is out to test the water and find what people think.

Ajax · January 06, 2013, 01:29:07 PM

More guns means more gun deaths. I'm not anti-gun. I am, however, anti-gun violence, anti NRA and anti-gun culture. More guns leads to more gun deaths, plain and simple.

Carla_M · January 06, 2013, 02:42:08 PM

But at the same time the overall homicide rate in the USA is much lower than in many other world countries. Statistics are wonderful things, but they can be misused for one's own purposes. I can do that too.

i guess the red parts are blood
I'd rather live in redoverfarms version of the USA than the other

Website I got that from is Chartsbin.com
http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Plus a table of stats over here
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=161310

Redoverfarm · January 06, 2013, 03:46:40 PM

Firearms whether you like it or not have played a vital role in what the United States is today. Yes guns kill that is not a disputed fact because that was there intention of their invention whether it be game for the table or protection. If used correctly they are no different than any other modern invention. The availablilty to persons that have no respect for human life is what needs to be controlled. Being in the Mountain State we are probably one of the biggest firearm owners per population and yet we have one of the lowest crimes by firearms rate.

January 06, 2013, 05:29:26 PM

Quote from: Carla_M on January 06, 2013, 02:42:08 PM
But at the same time the overall homicide rate in the USA is much lower than in many other world countries. Statistics are wonderful things, but they can be misused for one's own purposes. I can do that too.

Let's stick to countries that have some concept of the rule of law

And what do ya know? The same trend works for states as well

Quote from: Redoverfarm on January 06, 2013, 03:46:40 PM
Firearms whether you like it or not have played a vital role in what the United States is today. Yes guns kill that is not a disputed fact because that was there intention of their invention whether it be game for the table or protection. If used correctly they are no different than any other modern invention. The availablilty to persons that have no respect for human life is what needs to be controlled. Being in the Mountain State we are probably one of the biggest firearm owners per population and yet we have one of the lowest crimes by firearms rate.

You have in WV one of the highest firearm deaths rates in the nation. Number 11. The states are color coded by who they voted for in the presidential election. It seems republicans keep shooting each other.

MikeC · January 06, 2013, 06:21:37 PM

The charts provided by ajax seem to come from "globalsociology.com", yet while lacking data source citation are attributed to Simon Rogers of the Guardian.co.uk

I found that interesting since the Global Mail UK recently presented the UK as the most violent nation in the EU. The UK where firearm ownership has long been virtually prohibited:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

"The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609."

Now, if access to firearms were the catalyst to violence as claimed one could reasonably expect that shooting ranges, duck blinds and gun stores/shows would be awash in carnage. But folks in those locations are usually polite and respectful of others.

There must be some other explanation.

Windpower · January 06, 2013, 06:41:18 PM

Since charts are popular .....

Here's one sourced from CDC, FBI, US Federal Government

It would seem that there are bigger problems than firearms

In fact, medical errors account for almost 20 times the number of firearm homicides --Doctors are more lethal the guns .....

And the top one is 50 times more lethal -- and tobacco is still legal

In fact a person is one and a half times more likely to be killed by knives, ball bats, poison or hammers than by a firearm

Redoverfarm · January 06, 2013, 07:15:21 PM

Interesting. Did you know that almost 50% or better of the death by firearms contained are probably not indicating they were self inflicted. As for the republican statistics they maybe fell under this catagory knowing what they would have to go through the next fours years with the democratic choice.

Lets not try to compare these or we would be debating sleeping pills and razor blades as well.

In fact the firearm murder rate for WV is 2.87 @100,000 or a total of 43 in the year of 2011 according to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting. Hey guess what it is from your own source.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state

Now lets compare Apples w/apples shall we.

Firearms whether you like it or not have played a vital role in what the United States is today. Yes guns kill that is not a disputed fact because that was there intention of their invention whether it be game for the table or protection. If used correctly they are no different than any other modern invention. The availablilty to persons that have no respect for human life is what needs to be controlled. Being in the Mountain State we are probably one of the biggest firearm owners per population and yet we have one of the lowest crimes by firearms rate.

On second thought I am satisfied. But heck I was when I started.

Carla_M · January 06, 2013, 10:35:23 PM

Quote from: Ajax on January 06, 2013, 05:29:26 PM
Let's stick to countries that have some concept of the rule of law

You did bring up the rest of the world first, did you not?

But you have as much of an anti-gun agenda as I have a pro-gun stance. Very unlikely we will ever see eye to eye on the subject so there is little point in beating this dead horse with you.

January 06, 2013, 11:12:21 PM

Hey Huge,

The Carpenter's song was "We've Only Just Begun"

Pretty much the same effect.

sparks

NM_Shooter · January 07, 2013, 12:02:56 AM

Stating that "if there are less guns, gun deaths go down" is a bit silly. Of course that is true. After all, if there were no guns anywhere, then of course gun deaths would be zero.

However, the other thing that goes down with fewer guns is the statistic of how many guns prevent gun deaths. Statistically impossible to prove that. Can't prove something that does not occur. Heck, we can't even get the media to report broadly on events in which a gun is used for defensive means. It isn't in their political agenda, and they don't want to report on the buildings that didn't burn down (so to speak). Look at the restaurant / theater shooting in TX right after the Connecticut shooting. You have to dig to find that story about the off duty officer who shot the bad guy with a gun to stop the crime.

Gun deaths are the wrong statistic to look at anyway. Violent crime is the statistic to look at. I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming evidence shows that violent crime goes up when gun control goes up.

I am amazed at the outright naivete of folks such as Ajax who believe that those who wish to do harm to others would simply turn in their guns, or not turn to another means to conduct their attacks on others. This is pretty much the liberal mindset though. They ignore hard facts, or just don't possess the mental acuity to correctly analyze a situation. Pity, as they seem to breed so quickly too.

What gun control does, is disable the ability of the average person to be able to provide competent defense for themselves.

Huge29 · January 07, 2013, 02:04:27 AM

Thanks for the clarification Sparks!
What Ajax fails to consider is that these deaths are the R's having to shoot the D's as they break into their house looking to satisfy their drug habits and such. Had the intruders not been shot it is hard to say what would have happened. 2009 was the lowest violent crime rate in about 50 years nationwide, yet it was 5 years after the ban expired; how does one explain that if a ban even came close to achieving its purpose?
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=19419913
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=22617747
What I can't figure out is how the Connecticut nut job had an AR??? Those are banned in CT; are you going to tell me that law breakers don't obey the laws and you only restrict the law abiders?

MushCreek · January 07, 2013, 07:24:52 AM

Well, it's good to see that CT is way down there in the 'safe' category.

Quick question- What kind of guns were used in the World Trade center attacks?

archimedes · January 07, 2013, 10:45:58 AM

Quote from: NM_Shooter on January 07, 2013, 12:02:56 AM
However, the other thing that goes down with fewer guns is the statistic of how many guns prevent gun deaths. Statistically impossible to prove that. Can't prove something that does not occur.

Actually you can;

In a first-of its-kind study, epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that, on average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. The study estimated that people with a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090930121512.htm

FutureBumpkin · January 07, 2013, 11:27:03 AM

I'm a big fan of statistics and graphs.

January 07, 2013, 11:59:38 AM

Quote from: archimedes on January 07, 2013, 10:45:58 AM
Actually you can;

In a first-of its-kind study, epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that, on average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. The study estimated that people with a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090930121512.htm

That study is a joke. For starters, look at how they amassed the control data :

"To identify the controls, trained phone canvassers called random Philadelphians soon after a reported shooting and asked about their possession of a gun at the time of the shooting. These random Philadelphians had not been shot and had nothing to do with the shooting. "

Here is a detailed analysis of why that Penn study is bogus : http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/9485/how-your-tax-dollars-demonize-your-guns/

My point is that you can not get a mortality statistic when a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun. Consider this story : http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/sanantonio.asp

How many lives were saved by that off-duty officer? one? 10? 100? You can not account for that statistic. What you can prove is that the shooter was stopped right then. ~~By a good guy with a gun.~~ edit.... by a good gal with a gun.

I certainly have no issue with anyone who chooses not to exercise their second amendment right. I take extreme issue with those who attempt to remove the use of that right from others.

NM_Shooter · January 07, 2013, 12:10:04 PM

http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/the-giant-gaping-hole-in-sandy-hook-reporting/

Redoverfarm · January 07, 2013, 03:02:02 PM

Now here is a twist to gun ownership. Not sure of the validity but appears legit. Probably not much chance in passage but as they say " the thought was there".

http://2012thebigpicture.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/vermont-to-require-non-gun-owners-to-pay-a-fine/

Carla_M · January 07, 2013, 03:54:35 PM

Quote from: Huge29 on January 07, 2013, 02:04:27 AM

What I can't figure out is how the Connecticut nut job had an AR??? Those are banned in CT;
?

I could be wrong, but I believe that it was owned before the ban and was then likely grandfathered in to the mother.

Carla_M · January 07, 2013, 03:58:51 PM

Good article there NM_Shooter.

My own belief is that more harm is done by prescription drugs than good. That goes for drugs that affect the mind as well as other parts of the body. But then the drug companies control the medical establishment, and that is another rant. But it does have a bearing here most likely.

Ban drugs, not guns ?