Pier posts vs full foundation

AdironDoc · April 27, 2011, 11:05:23 AM

Thought I'd ask your opinion, friends, on the merits of concrete piers vs. a full poured or block foundation. The ground is almost thawed in the Adirondacks and I'm about to start on a 20 x 40 off-grid cabin. We'll be using it a max of 9 months out of the year (no way in during snows). I've figured on using poured piers up around 4 ft in front, to 2 ft in back where the land slopes. This gives enough space to run my pipes and get under to drain the system come winter. The builder has had a change in heart and now insists that piers are a mistake. He notes the cabin will be warmer in the winter and more have more stability with a full foundation, albeit at an increase in cost. He's quite adamant about it though most of his other projects have been on piers. Any clear reason to go with a full foundation here? This project is expanding by the minute.

Doc

Squirl · April 27, 2011, 11:17:12 AM

2 ft? Isn't the frost depth and code required to be 4? Is that 2 and 4 figure for above grade or total?

April 27, 2011, 11:30:13 AM

IMHO, a full foundation is much better - if you can afford it.

Better for resale (if that every becomes an issue)
More stable and substantial, in my opinion.
It gives you some usable space underneath, even if not "finished" space, for water heater, plumbing, well pump, tools, etc.

I guess it all depends on how much you want to spend. It's kind of an apples and oranges comparison. But if you can afford it, I'd go for the full foundation. When the project is done, you'll probably never regret it.

AdironDoc · April 27, 2011, 11:59:10 AM

Ah, good points. More substantial and better support. I can appreciate that, though I'm not sure it will warrant a big jump in cost. As for storage, etc, I'm planning a sizable shed and garage not far from the house. My water storage and pump will, however, be under the house. The 2 to 4 feet I mentioned would be above the ground. If I go full foundation, I'd add another foot or two to those numbers. Still not sure why piers are, in his words, "a huge mistake".

Doc

archimedes · April 27, 2011, 12:16:52 PM

I don't think I would describe it as a huge mistake.

How much of a price difference are we talking about? Have you determined?

April 27, 2011, 01:28:06 PM

When I asked about the cost, he said I'd need to add for the extra labor, backhoe, concrete and crew. I pressed him and was told, "come up to my office and let's discuss it when we sit down". Sounds like how I'd break bad news to a patient!

I'm not opposed to a full foundation other than it seems an unnecessary added cost for a seasonal off grid hunting cabin. Piers seemed a quicker and simpler thing. "Your place will be warmer in the winter". I'm not even sure that's true, but in any event, if it's fall he's talking about, I'd throw another log in the stove.

I may need to hash this out with him mano a mano in two weeks. Thanks for the input.

MountainDon · April 27, 2011, 02:02:18 PM

Doc, I have not seen you around in a while, good to see you again. Have you seen/read some of the developing info we have started in a new thread, a child board of the general Board. It was recently started and has one topic that touches on pier foundations...

Follow this link to the specific item of interest...
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10511.msg134245#msg134245

The new board index page is...
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?board=14.0

I don't recall at all, does your project get involved in local permitting and so on? Sometimes that affects what foundations can be used.

archimedes · April 27, 2011, 03:36:03 PM

Quote from: AdironDoc on April 27, 2011, 01:28:06 PM
"come up to my office and let's discuss it when we sit down". Sounds like how I'd break bad news to a patient!

That does have an ominous sound to it.

For what it's worth, I got a quote for a basement 20 X 30 (excavation, waterproofing, backfilling and concrete) and a connection to the sewer line (only about a 60 ft run) all for $11,500 within the last year. I don't know what you were expecting for the cost of the piers but maybe that can give you a little point of reference for comparison.

What ever happened with your "well"?

AdironDoc · April 27, 2011, 06:15:04 PM

Great to be back, Don. I've been lurking here on occasion these last two months. Heck, not much to do while waiting for the thaw which will signal the beginning of my project, so not many questions that weren't kicked around while I was actively posting. That link you posted is a great thread! Leaves me thinking, piers=simple? .. not so simple.

Archimedes, my well should be thawing about now. I'll be up at camp two weeks from now as the snow will have melted and the 2 mile dirt road passable. I'll dump some chlorine in (clorox or pool chlorine? any ideas?) to zap any nasties and cover her with a vinyl shed. Even if it's a good water source, what a shame it sits around 800 ft from my cabin. Price of piers? Not sure. Just know the log/timber cabin he build up the way, at 16 x 24, roughed and dry with Andersens all around, stained siding, 16ft loft, steel roof and 8ft deck was $15K. I figured on roughly $34/sq ft for same, so that included the piers in the overall price. He's using my lumber that I already paid him to cut, clear and prepare over the winter.

Will keep you posted. I'm eager to take some photos of this build from scratch to finish and post them here. Many of the modifications and inspirations were born here and I obviously pay homage to those who have "erred" before me, LOL. Nice to have met others on the same path.

Doc

April 28, 2011, 07:32:52 AM

Doc,
just a bit of info for you. Im building a 24 x 32 on Tug Hill and materials cost for a walk out basement for me is estimated at $7500, full 8' height. I have some family that is helping install blocks so labor cost is 0. I looked at doing peirs and estimate for that was about $2000. So for $5500 more I get a full walk out basement, for me it was well worth it.
Steve

h0rizon · April 28, 2011, 08:13:47 AM

QuoteI have some family that is helping install blocks

Are you doing drystack? What about excavation costs?

UK4X4 · April 28, 2011, 11:16:52 AM

"This project is expanding by the minute."

well at least i'm not the only one !

My site is still under snow- but the road is clear-

Just had the soil test done - sandy clay with cobbles.........and frost depth of 48"

same soil down to ten ft- water at 8ft in one test hole

Im on the side of a mountian with lots of seasonal runoff !

so my foundation plans have project creep too !

the soil engineer expects me to dig out 4ft across the whole plot and fill with gravel !

The engineer wants to do a waffle raft and add 4ft deep foundations all arround.( soil guy wants to add 36" of gravel beneath that !)

Sounds like a swimming pool to me !

me I was after a small raft FPSF................

AdironDoc · April 28, 2011, 11:25:30 AM

Quote from: nysono on April 28, 2011, 07:32:52 AM
Doc,
just a bit of info for you. Im building a 24 x 32 on Tug Hill and materials cost for a walk out basement for me is estimated at $7500, full 8' height. I have some family that is helping install blocks so labor cost is 0. I looked at doing peirs and estimate for that was about $2000. So for $5500 more I get a full walk out basement, for me it was well worth it.
Steve

Well now, that's not too bad a difference price wise! If I do go with a full foundation, I'd love to make use of the space underneath as a basement. I do need to consider that I'm 100ft from the edge of a 90ft wide creek so I'd rather not dig too deeply. Flood plain begins 100 ft away to either side of my site but I'm up around 15ft above it. My other consideration is that if I raise the cabin up too high, it will look odd. I'm going with 12ft exterior walls so the loft has a knee wall of 4ft. With a 12:12 pitch on the steel roof, I envision the house may appear very tall. I was planning the cabin would be 3ft above the surface. With a full basement, maybe I'd go 4ft up, 4ft down.

Interesting the way projects "evolve"... Now if we could just break ground already!

JRR · April 28, 2011, 11:29:44 AM

I also agree that, by many measures, a full basement is "better". But its your money and your dream, if you want/see piers in your plan ... go for it! Make them work!

April 29, 2011, 05:21:20 AM

Quote from: AdironDoc on April 28, 2011, 11:25:30 AM
Well now, that's not too bad a difference price wise! If I do go with a full foundation, I'd love to make use of the space underneath as a basement. I do need to consider that I'm 100ft from the edge of a 90ft wide creek so I'd rather not dig too deeply. Flood plain begins 100 ft away to either side of my site but I'm up around 15ft above it. My other consideration is that if I raise the cabin up too high, it will look odd. I'm going with 12ft exterior walls so the loft has a knee wall of 4ft. With a 12:12 pitch on the steel roof, I envision the house may appear very tall. I was planning the cabin would be 3ft above the surface. With a full basement, maybe I'd go 4ft up, 4ft down.

Interesting the way projects "evolve"... Now if we could just break ground already!

I had the same thoughts about height as Im going 12' walls but 10/12 pitch with steel roof. That puts my peak about 31' on the open end of the basement and 23' on opposite side. I should be about 32" above grade with sill plate. That should lessen the porcupine attraction. Hope to break ground in 3-4 wks, if it ever quits raining. Basement is dug already just need to get footers down and a cement truck in 2300' through the woods off a seasonal road. My thread will start when the footers do.
Steve

Don_P · April 29, 2011, 06:09:54 AM

UK,
What is the typical foundation around you?

UK4X4 · April 29, 2011, 09:52:26 AM

Arround me..!

long story I'll post it on my lonely FPSF thread to stop muddying this one !

suburbancowboy · April 29, 2011, 11:05:53 AM

In some areas like utah the fire marshal discourages piers for fire reasons. With piers every piece of wood underneith has to be covered in cement fiber board. I had planned on piers but ended up going with a 4 ft cement foundation. 5000 dollar total cost. If I had it to do again I would have gone with a 8 ft foundation. 2000 dollars more but double the space which equals higher resale value if ever needed.