Dog Trot Gable Roof Span

Started by fritz, December 16, 2005, 10:09:08 PM

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glenn kangiser

#25
It seems the rafter method Bart and PEG suggest would provide continuity more easily and give Fritz a place to hang his doors on the headers.

I enhanced (or degraded) a portion of the above photo to show the skip sheathing (now I know the name - thanks, Bart) a little better - While playing with it I noticed it looks like clear fiberglass or polycarbonate panels of the same configuration as the steel being used as skylights.  This is common in steel buildings.



With the slope on this building it seems that standard lap high rib steel sheeting could be used rather than standing seam (which I think is usually crimped together or maybe in some cases clipped together) -maybe or maybe not cheaper- just another option.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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fritz

I also see what looks to be two beams resting on post frame supports....then the rafters rest on the beam and the skip sheathing.  This is similar to the constuction of the barn on the property build between the 20's and 40's.  

You suppose these beams run the entire length?  In my case 24+16+18 = 58 feet + whatever end overhang.


Also, I sketched what I think were the two ideas from above about the purlins.  It's approximate but not exact to scale.



JRR

#28
Fritz, I like your sketch.  

Just for a "brain game", try doing away with the rafter that you are ledgering into.  
Remember, in a true dog trot breezeway, your purlin-rafters will be landing onto  full strength end walls.  Each of the purlins could land directly onto a wall stud.  Could be a butt-connection ... or could actually rest atop the stud ...or ...

I like the "opening header" acting as a spreader beam.  Try raising it up to fit in between the lowest pair of purlin-rafters.  I bet two would suffice in a 16' opening.

BTW: When I suggested 2x8's, I was "shooting from the lip".  Now looking at tables, I see 2x8's would still work (@ 16" spacing) for some wood species and for the snowless Southeast: but for the rest of the country 2x10's, or better, may be required.

John Raabe

#29
Wow...

I get away for a day and look what happens.

This idea is evolving nicely.  :o

Think I'll go away again.  :)

John

PS - As long as you do a standard concrete foundation wall under the sidewalls of the dog trot area this "long rafter" solution will work. A post and pier foundation could be done for this as well but should be done for the specific loads of the span and climate and is most simple with the header and ridge beam layout as the loads can then land on the piers. The breezeway could be done in lexan roofing for a sunny transition space and then metal on either side. (I might do corrugated to match the lexan profile.)

None of us are as smart as all of us.


fritz

I was thinking 8 inch sonotube piers and was thinking of adding 1 at each "corner" where the deck of the dogtrot meets the corner of each cabin.  

I hadn't decided whether to use the layout from the little house plans for the cabins (with the joist cantlevered over the beam) -- or go with the perimeter - pier layout of the "deep pier foundation" in the enchilada kit.  I notice the beam size changes with the two versions.

Thoughts?  I probably want to run this by an engineer once I think I'm ready.

John Raabe

I think you would be better off with the piers under the corners of the building when doing things like adding additional loading to the sidewalls.

Also, go up a notch on the floor joists as the span is now longer.

It would be a good idea to have your final layout reviewed locally.
None of us are as smart as all of us.

fritz

#32
Thanks all for your help before, can I bounce this next version off you.  After looking at the roof line suggestions, I tinkered with this idea more.  Now, the roof over the dog trot is raised 12" 18" above the other roof lines. (Still deciding)

But here is the concept.  the roof would be longer to extend out to the same overhang as the main cabins (12" for now)  The sketches actually show it even longer -- still playing with that.

it's based on daddymem and peg's suggestion -- a sort of timber frame roof just for that section -- the 6x6 posts rest on their own piers in the corners.

Some sketches -- approximate.

A view with the sliding barn doors open


A view closed up when the cabin is un occupied



A view from the north end -- looking toward the raised roof



A view from "inside" the dog trot showing the timber frame concept



Finally, some 3-d from a cheap 3d home plan software




As a side note, I had no idea the original design was a "famous" cabin.  As I did some research, it is called the Zachary house, and was in several magazines and trade publications.

You can see more info at the architect's site:

http://www.studioatkinson.com/1-zachary-3.htm


I really like being able to use John's plan and Atkinson's concept to make this adaptation.  it will look great in rural Iowa -- and closed up -- will just look like a barn.  

PEG688

 Sweet  :)   What would be cool , and you may have it in mind .  Would be windows in the barn doors that when they are opened would line up with window in what ever rooms would be behind the "opened " barn door . A bit more sementry(sp) to excited to go spell check that word .   It would be a little work but sweet when the plan, worked out .   So add a window to the floor plan on either side of the barn doors, and one in each barn door .   PEG
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .


fritz

thanks for the encouragement.  


I go back and forth on the additional windows.  it adds symetery....but I like the look without, too.  I haven't tackeled the back side windows yet -- the same or maybe different.  In the smaller, right hand cabin, there is a future bath and shower in the windowless end.  Anyway, easier to change my mind on paper than later.

I also am unsure about the each gable end rafter on the raised roof...I'm wondering if it needs to be more truss like (a king post maybe? I think that's the term) or if there is is enough structure with the other rafters to keep the roof intact and rigid in the wind.  

jwv

#35
QuoteYou can see more info at the architect's site:

Great idea and I do remember seeing this in a book some time back. If I remember correctly, the architect designed this for parents, one of which was a member of the clergy, therefore the + design.

judy

[edit]add reference quote[/edit]
http://strawbaleredux.blogspot.com/

"One must have chaos in one's self to give birth to the dancing star" ~Neitszche

glenn kangiser

You can use lookouts to brace the last 3 roof joists together to support the outside one.  Some I have seen were 2x4s let into the top of the second joist flat ways then nailed to the inside one of the three and the outside one so they were flush with the underside of the sheathing or roofing.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

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JRR

#37
MAIDEN PHOTO POST:

No, no, fellows ... not a photo of a maiden.  It's my first try at posting a photo: The Dog Trot House in Alabama state park.  Updated with metal roof.  Now used for housing public toilets (on right) and park office (on left).
.

.
Yahoo!!! It works ... just follow John's easy directions.

glenn kangiser

Cool JRR - you are officially no longer a virgin --- photo poster. :-/
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.


Daddymem

#39
QuoteMAIDEN PHOTO POST:

No, no, fellows ... not a photo of a maiden.

Dang and I thought Amanda got the vinyl skirt out again  ;)  

with my luck it would be glenn  :P
Où sont passées toutes nos nuits de rêve?
Aide-moi à les retrouver.
" I'm an engineer Cap'n, not a miracle worker"

http://littlehouseonthesandpit.wordpress.com/

williet

#40
QuoteGlenn, your sketch is on the money.

But before you give me any credit for being a thinker,  perhaps you should know that during a vacation ride through Alabama ... we visited a state park ... known for its long old wooden covered bridge ... and oh yes, there was also an authentic "dog trot house".   Could be that that particular breezeway roof was supported in this fashion.

"Some of my best original ideas ... are ones that I've stolen from others".
                                                                                    JRR

The cabin at the Clarkson bridge has been inspiring to many folks.

We, Debbie and I, plan to build a version of a dog trot using an 18' X 18' room on each side of a 8' main hall. It will look like an enclosed dog trot. One side is the master bedroom and the other is the living area. The middle is a stairway with 1/2 bath or closet area under the stairs. I hope to use the 20x30 1.5 plan or a FirstDay kit to do this. It will be modified to be 18' x 44'. We plan an addition on the back of something like 22'X28' for the kitchen, bath areas.
These houses are all over our countrysides. I have several pictures and will attempt to post some when I'm not at work.

In the mean time, at Google search of the Clarkson coveredbridge will turn up nice photos of the dog trot cabin there.

http://community.webshots.com/album/55920059gpyumM

williet

QuoteHeh, wrote that one while you were writing yours..I see we are two ships in different directons  :D
Anyways..here is one with two pieces:
http://www.wheelerplantation.org/early_dogtrot_cabin.htm
Here is a compound project using dog trot influences:
http://themeridiancompany.com/cms/view.php?offset=1&sort=The%20Trot

I'm sitting about 8 miles from the Wheeler Plantation right now. It's a shame, but the mansion and the cabins (your first link) are falling into dis-repair once again. We as a nation seem to have tax money for everything and everyone except our history and culture.

glenn kangiser

#42
Quote
QuoteMAIDEN PHOTO POST:

No, no, fellows ... not a photo of a maiden.

Dang and I thought Amanda got the vinyl skirt out again  ;)  

with my luck it would be glenn  :P

You should be so lucky. :)  I don't think there is a male nurse big enough to get me into another dress. :-/
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

JRR

"Clarkson Covered Bridge" ... Thanks, Williet, I couldn't remember the name.  We just made a quick stop driving thru.  I can see from the linked photos, that I need to return and finish the visit.

Have you been to "Natural Bridge"?

williet

Which "Natural Bridge"? There are a couple that come to mind ....  

The covered bridge is a great place for a picnic ... especially when the pond is full and the water's really runnin  :)


JRR

#45
A great example of what can be done by a private/tax-paying conservatist:
.
http://lampton.home.mindspring.com/naturalbridge.htm
.
Worth the visit, just to chat with the owner.  Heck of a nice person.  I remember the Clarkson Covered and the Natural Bridge being in somewhat the same area ... but maybe they are not so close.

Mark_Chenail

I posted this in the 1000sqft thread, but thought I would show it to you folks interested in dogtrots.   A lot of dogtrots got closed in as the years went by and the family prospered, creating a  big living room or a wide center hall.  Many of them had the roofs raised to create a full second story.  

Here's a little dog trot design I did ages ago. They were done on Paint. It shows a possible two story center section to add more interest to the facade.



mark chenail

williet

QuoteA great example of what can be done by a private/tax-paying conservatist:
.
http://lampton.home.mindspring.com/naturalbridge.htm
.
Worth the visit, just to chat with the owner.  Heck of a nice person.  I remember the Clarkson Covered and the Natural Bridge being in somewhat the same area ... but maybe they are not so close.
Thanks,
We'll go see this one too ..... :)

williet

QuoteI posted this in the 1000sqft thread, but thought I would show it to you folks interested in dogtrots.   A lot of dogtrots got closed in as the years went by and the family prospered, creating a  big living room or a wide center hall.  Many of them had the roofs raised to create a full second story.  

Here's a little dog trot design I did ages ago. They were done on Paint. It shows a possible two story center section to add more interest to the facade.




Nice house, thanks for sharing it.

JRR

#49
Nice plan, Mark.  

I've been toying with a trot-design "lodge" ... full second floor, including smaller upper breezeway, pushing 2000 ft.  Three bedrooms, each with bath.  The breezeway joists and rafters would all run the "wrong way".  Balloon framework except in the breezeway section.  Porches on both sides.

The open unheated stairwell in the breezeway would not be problem here in the southeast.  Separate living compartments with separate heating/cooling units (insert "wall units" and/or PEX heating) should render fairly good energy conservation.  With proper attention to design and orientation, air conditioning need should be minimized.

This is my dream retirement house.  My wife and I stay on the lower level ... guests can do the climbing.