The subject question applies to property outside of cities, town, municipalities. In other words, rural, vacant, land. In a desire to live much more simply, not tied to water and power grids, just how much freedom to build as I desire do I have? Specifically, I am talking about my own type of foundation (insulating pier-post foundation), grey water treatment, outhouse (for black water) or other black water treatment short of septic system.
I imagine that I'll get answers saying that it varies from place to place and that I need to check with county officials and the like.
Finally, those of you who already live out like this, where are you?
Does anyone know of places where one can build as such?
Thanks for your replies.
Hal
Well I have land in a place where there is no building code other than electric and septic. Septic has to be designed by a certified person so as long as you get his buy in you could do inovative things with greywater. I think several areas of the interior of B.C. are like that.
They got rid of the prov. inspectors for septic to increase innovation but all it did was increase prices as now the designer is liable for many years for the installation.
It's definitely an "It all depends."
Most of the states have bought into one of the comprehensive codes plans. Not all parts of every state inforce this. And if they don't now, the chances are pretty good that what you've built will be grandfathered in if they do all go to codes enforcement.
Grid electricity and Sewage are the two areas most likely to be enforced. I have friends who have outhouses grandfathered in, even if they do have grid electricity.
The old septic tank inspector told me that I had to have a septic tank, but nobody could make me use it.
My place in Vermont has no building codes when I built it, but now there is a code for the septic only.
This is only for my area in the state. Each down area makes up its own codes here. Like I said there were none when I built but a neighbor right down the road had to deal with building codes. So like you said "all depends" and you need to check with the town, county, and State. But they are out there. There just becoming scares.
Kevin
They can MAKE you be on the electric grid ??!!
What about all I hear and read regarding offgrid living? I'm gettng pretty pissed off about our culture saying that you've got to live the way THEY say you are going to live. How you build your house. How you provide power for your place. How you handle refuse. Believe me, the last thing I would do is pollute my own place!!
Are there any alternatives to septic system that are allowed anywhere other than those already grandfathered in?
Thanks.
You mean like composting toilets? In BC you can use alternates but a certified person has to design them. Here you can always take the course and certify it yourself.
As far as being off the grid, that is allowed. No one says you have to be connected but if you are the connection has to be to code.
Most states have exceptions if you are willing to go through the paper work and EFFORT. I am currently on a hopefully not endless path ;) to get a composting toilet approved. Many of the bigger composting toilet manufacturers have NSF ( National Sanitation Foundation) approval and that helps. Some of the homemade designs are engineered approved. If you go to Sun Mar or Biolet online you can local up local dealers.
The key is you need to find like minded people in your state and talk to them. My county guy told me several things which were not exactly accurate but he might not even know. He just regurgatates info given to him. Many states ( Im in KY) have solar groups and all states have Sierra Clubs. Go to those people and ask about your off grid living in your area.
I'm thinking properly constructed outdoor privies/outhouses.
So what are they getting these days for installation of a septic system?
I'm prepared to be floored by the price.
somewhere between 2- and 35-thousand?
On rural land I don't know that you would have to be grid-tied(YMMV). Get HomePower magazine; there's a lot of info on their website http://www.homepower.com/. HOAs are usually the culprits of stupid nonsense rules. Stay away from them if you want to do anything outside the box.
Judy
Our county says you must tie to the grid if it is available. I say over my dead body.
Septic around my area is about 5 to 6 thousand for a normal system. Up from there for more exotic solutions.
So, Glenn,
You are not tied to the grid? If not, how'd you manage that in light of your statement?
Also, thanks for the price estimate of septic. May I ask, are you on septic? If not, how not?
Thanks.
My quote for a septic tank was $5100 and the tie in for grid was roughly $4000. I do not plan to use either but I wanted financial comparisons.
Even if you are not around KY this sight has good info on line. Look under the Solar Guide.
http://www.kysolar.org/case5.htm
Also I have found these two distributers to have lots of info as well.
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/index.htm
http://home.altenergystore.com/
I sometimes forget to ask, Hal ---- getting old I guess so I just continue doing what I need to do out of necessity. Put up the wind generator as an experiment - forgot to take it down I guess -- then while we were waiting on a call back from the electric co. we needed something for power, so we put in a few thousand watts of panels. Funny to watch the power go out in the county but we still have it. Oh-- BTW --their reasoning was that it was too unreliable and if we wouldn't take care of ourselves the state would take care of us ---- again --- over my dead stinking rotting carcass. :)
That would be a yes --- when I went to the store there were no laws posted stopping me from buying a tank. Place was already profiled - and oops - think it may have slipped my mind. Damn alzheimers. :(
I posted this sign with the day use fee
(http://tinypic.com/1iicr9)
and my intent is to push the issue if the time comes.
I don't know how it would work for you -- I don't know how it would work for me --- but I have heard it is effective and have heard local stories of similar signs and issues working if one is educated on the issues enough to protect themselves. Who knows -- avoiding the confrontation as long as possible and not throwing sticks into the hive at this point.
Glen
Where did you get the sign? Did you post it at the road.
:D
The website --with lots of information on property rights is on the bottom corner of the sign.
http://www.landrights.com/
LANDRIGHTS.COM
There is a real good education waiting there if you want to spend the time. Your results depend on lots of things but the information is there. Your rights will not be upheld if you don't know them.
I have about 8 or 10 of the signs on my driveway , alternate driveway, cul-de-sac, front porch so I can take a digital photo of the respasser when I present him with his $5000 invoice for the day use fee. Next step is to take (him/them) to small claims court. If your court doesn't allow up to $5000 then you can reduce it to the allowed amount. By willfully continuing onto your property when it is posted he is agreeing to pay the fee. Like when you install software-- you agree to the terms and not do it or you continue on signifying that you agreed to the terms.
You can print it out and laminate it and post it to trees - it will last a year or more if laminated.
I would rather beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. The big hammer that is used is a clearance for an electric meter. If you are off grid-----no hammer. In the parts of Arizona that I am familiar with an approved septic system is required to obtain an electrical meter. I have an off grid remote property and I have never gotten any permits for anything I have done there. My electricity is provided by the sun and there is no one around to complain. Yes, there are county regulations but I would rather beg for forgiveness.........if it ever comes to that. I could use one of those signs though. ;)
Interesting little story - my renter saw two sheriffs sitting at the cul-de-sac several months ago. Asked them if they knew it was private property and if he could help them. They replied that they were just trying to figure out who lived up there. Guess I got their interest. :)
We own both sides of the road with an easment there too.
My other neighbor nearest me is a retired police officer. He put up a bunch of no trespassing signs -- regular -- all around there too.
We are nice guys --- really. :-/ :) We just figure we still have some rights and that we should control who we want to have access to our property even if there isn't a gate on it.
That's the way I see it also desgawg --- well OK --- I don't grovel well. :(
I figure when one of them evolves high enough that he outgrows the need to defecate, then he will be superior to me and I will grovel (under duress) --- OK --- so I probably won't then either -- let him snuff me out like a burned out cigarette butt.
:-/ :)
Anyway, desdawg -- print yourself out a few and laminate them - If the above one isn't good enough quality go to the Landrights site - I got mine from there and it prints up real good. :) Enjoy.
Hi Hal,
Please allow me to chime in. I bought a nice 9+ acre piece in southern New Hampshire (Charlestown) two years ago. The land is on a class 6 road ( non-town maintained) so I called the town hall to inquire what the building codes were. To my surprise and pleasure I was told there was none! The only caveat is that if I plan a full sized home I have to have a state approved septic in place before I build. Since I planned (and have) to build a mini-cabin I did not have to get a permit of any kind. There are still towns in New Hampshire that practice what they put on their license plates - Live Free or Die. Oh, I forgot to tell you that the folks in the planning office supplied me with a schematic of a proven outhouse design that I followed and have been happy with ever since.
OK, Woodrules --- what country were you in? :)
Just kidding -- that is absolutely wonderful. Finally we hear from a place that doesn't run over the rights of the owner-builder in a rural area. You would think that a place like that with such a flagrant absense of regulation would just fall off the face of the earth. :-/
From http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/proprightsfrms.htm
Quote"My recommendation to any concerned local property owner is to dash down to the court house and get their "exhaustive chain-of-title" completed! I would also recommend that anybody testifying remind the county that the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution applies to all subdivisions of government. A taking is reached when a government entity destroys the NET income from prohibiting some of the rights to USE the property. A couple of things to remember about title: an exhaustive chain-of-title creates FULL title, not color of title. A title company only provides "color of title". Once you trace the property back to the patent or treaty of origin and collect all property transfer documents in between, you have obtained full title. Then a property owner can, if they want to push the matter that far, tell the governing authority that they are not required to get their permits, etc., because they have full title. If the governing body still wants to push the matter, the property owner can tell the entity to show up with their checkbook and expect to pay highest and best use value for the property. In these battles, full title is your big stick." - Ramona Hage Morrison, daughter of Wayne and Jean Hage, Nevada ranchers. July 26, 2004
more
QuoteA right undefended is a right waived. The protection of property rights is fundamentally the preservation of civil liberties. - Wayne Hage, February 13, 2001. http://www.RangeMagazine.com/archives/stories/summer01/David_Goliath.htm
The biggest thing people must understand is that, if people want the government to take care of them, they have no absolutely property rights -- they have only relative rights, i.e., their property is pledged to the social insecurity debt. Therefore, they must perform to the dictates of the government. - Lee Brobst, September 4, 2003
"Neither 'property' nor the value of property is a physical thing. Property is a set of defined options ... It is that set of options which has economic value ... It is the options, and not the physical things, which are the "property" -- economically as well as legally ... But because the public tends to think of property as tangible, physical things, this opens the way politically for government confiscation of property by forcibly taking away options while leaving the physical objects untouched." - Thomas Sowell
"If we don't know our rights (under the Constitution), then we don't have any." - Jane Taylor, New Jersey
From http://www.landrights.com/building_permits.htm
QuoteBUILDING PERMITS
In this Short Article I will attempt to pass on a few points of interest relevant to Local Building Permits.
Inasmuch as a contract consists of three points (Offer, Acceptance & Consideration), it is clear that a building permit is a contract. Thus it should always be remembered that when you sign your name to a contract it becomes binding and for want of a better term; "You belong!" So you must always ask for full disclosure of your permit (contract). If you were denied full disclosure, it would appear as if your local government is perpetrating a fraud. Don't sign without that "full disclosure"! Always keep in mind that when you sign for the permit you are giving the local government full control over your property. Keep in mind that they wrote the rules governing permits.
In your full disclosure request, ask your local representative for the legal documents that allow them to supercede and bypass 42 USC 1982; and/or 42 USC 1441. Research shows that government officials must have a monetary or proprietary interest in your real or personal property in order to have jurisdiction over it. Please remember that real property is that which is intangible; (your land or dirt) while personal property is that which can be moved, carried or is tangible; such as your house, car, etc.; 42 USC 1983, protects both kinds of property.
In any event, if you have singed a permit application and they have not tendered you a full disclosure, you may have a legal action for fraud.
If you find any wording in the contract you do not agree with, ask for a straightedge and draw a single line through the letters or words you wish to exclude. Initial and date the corresponding side of the page. If the other party signs, it's a done deal. What you have drawn a line through shows your rejection of that portion of the contract and as such, that portion is invalid and no longer part of the agreement. Don't try and block out the words. A simple straight line is sufficient. Government officials are charged with the knowledge of their own rules and are supposed to know the law pertaining to their governmental functions.
All of the above may be worth looking into. After all, the same government officials have most likely threatened you with jail and/or fines if you did not sign. Remember that you only signed the application for the permit. The infractions were then carried forth through verbal allegations of violations.
In closing, it is important to remember that they are not entitled to qualified immunity from liability by asserting a good faith claim relevant to the acts of municipal officials as a defense to a 42 USC 1983 Violation. See, Owen v City of Independence, Missouri, 445 US 622 (1980).
Example of words lined out in contract http://www.landrights.com/example_contract.htm
NOTE: The above postings are information only from my research on property rights. What you do with it and results from use of it are your responsibility. Glenn
Glenn, you are right- it is refreshing to speak to people in government that do not talk down to you. My experiences in NH have been quite the opposite; people there try to help you build your dream instead of attempting to talk you out of it. :)
I wonder if moving to NH would help Glenn with his attitude? ;)
It is definitely harder to have a "Live Free" attitude in CA. Just too many people with property values to protect and opinions about how you should live your life.
My experience has been that I have better luck with honey rather than vinegar... but this is rural WA state too. Where we do have state wide Building Codes but generally humanoid inspectors.
I do have the bad attitude, but in reality I would like my own country. Groveling is so hard. :-/
Here most of them are not too bad, and they will help you build your dream right after they relieve you of about $10000.00 to $20000.00 - kind of a protection racket. :)
[highlight]Kangiserstan? [/highlight] Do you have a turban, King Glenn?
(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/jraabe/king2.jpg)
I think that once the kingdom is recognized as a sovereign state that you not only get to make your own rules, but you can apply for foreign aid. :)
Looks and sounds great, John. If this thing works I should get about a billion a year from the Americans. Everybody in other countries knows that the Americans give free money to anyone except the working American Taxpayer. I think I have a winner here.
I really like the picture- John -- looks close enough to almost be me. :)
Now where is Sassy? It's time for my belly dance. :o
Nothing like about a 450 horsepower turban (turbine) --and in orange even.
glenn you start welding us up a time machine and I will draw up the documents proclaiming a nice swath of the pacific Northwest for countryhome members... you are older than me so you can be our leader at first and I will succeed you...
let me know when you get it ready... ;)
We could finally declare Ecotopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia) as an independent nation. It's about time! This came from a book (written in 1974) that was set in the far future (1999!) when everyone in this corner of the US lived Sustainably.
More or less like [highlight]Our Glorious Leader, King Glenn[/highlight] lives now!
All hail the King--- sounds good - :)
Interesting article on barbed wire and how its invention changed the west as far as private property went.
http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/barbed-wire/
I posted this in "off-topics" but it probably fits better under this heading Liberty & Buidling Permits (http://www.newswithviews.com/Bill/sizemore49.htm)
I paid 2500 for a four bedroom septic tank installed he hit a few boulders but still held his price that was august 2007 5000 seems way to high.
There are still places in Arkansas that you can live off-grid. Land is still cheap and if you qualify you can get a $300 Homestead exemption. I pay nothing each year for my property tax. There are no building or zoning restrictions in this area.
I checked out the Land Rights website. There is a lot of useful information. :)
I would like to point out with hesitation, that most Government Agencies no longer really have to visit your land. :-/
Satellite Pictures are the way they go. Be careful in stating that a building existed on your land for a long time. They are able to pull up satellite pictures of your property to confirm if buildings have existed and can be grandfathered in.
The only way to have Big Brother not know what your up to is building underground IMO.
Just something we all need to consider with satellite.
QuoteI paid 2500 for a four bedroom septic tank installed he hit a few boulders but still held his price that was august 2007 5000 seems way to high.
Sounds like you got a bargain, Leo. Here the tank costs $1100, rock and pipe, or modules about 1200 to 1500 then excavation, inspections - cover it up - final inspection.
So here materials are around the $2500 then the work has to be done. I don't think anybody does it around here or less than $5000 but we are in the mountains - inspectors are picky - you must do a profile hole on every system and if that doesn't look good maybe multiple profile holes or then its a perk test and if that doesn't look good then it's on to a $12000 to $25000 engineered system. You have to plead and beg to do it yourself if you are not a contractor and I don't know if an individual is even allowed to do it here.
They call NH the "live free or die" state. In my area I have found it to be more of "live free or die...as long as we say it's ok" Of course, I am near the coast, in Barrington.
My septic system was $4000 for a two bedroom house and that was AFTER I had a reduction for a composting toilet. In Ky.
Hello... just wanted to say how glad I am to have read this post, and wanted to thank King Glenn ;) for the land rights info....
It got me thinking and I've started to do some research... to think that I could have lived my life in ignorance of such an important thing... anyways, has anyone here heard of the TeamLaw (group?)... their website (teamlaw.org) has a lot of good info as well.
Since I will soon be in the market for some good land I can build on and raise a family on, how hard is it to find out about the availability/origin of the land patent before I buy? I'm thinking about the southern Oklahoma area...
Welcome to the forum, Rookie. You may rise. ::)
I haven't heard of Teamlaw that I remember but will check out the site. http://teamlaw.org/
How far you get with this is hard to tell but it doesn't hurt to know what are supposed to be your rights and try to stand up for them if the need arises. If you don't know about your rights, you don't stand a chance. I have read many times that you have to know the law to be protected by it.
I don't know the status of anyplace but here. :-? The title companies can tell you of the chain of title from the original patent. The chain of title records is important to show that the original rights from the original patent have been transferred legally to you. I am just learning enough about this to be dangerous myself. I did get my exhaustive chain of title done, so at least have certified copies of all f the original papers from John C. Fremont -patent signed by Abraham Lincoln, clear to me. :)
There is also supposed to be some info on the web but haven't found it yet.
Quote...from John C. Fremont -
.... as in first republican candidate for president and western explorer??
That would be the guy -- Married Jessie Benton - Senator Thomas "Old Bullion" Benton was her father. Mt Bullion - My mountain was named after him - We live just down the hill from Fremont Peak. :)
Fremont had a floating gold claim here - if someone claimed some gold his boundary floated to that point - they finally nailed it down in Mariposa county court establishing much of the mining law for the entire United States. We own part of the Las Mariposas patented claim that was patented by Fremont.
'way cool!
If I wasn't so lazy I'd put Lincolns patent letter on here. :)
Challenge!! :-/ :o
(You probably saw that coming.... )
OK -- To lazy to scan so took a pix. This isn't the part where it goes to Fremont but it is part of the patent/chain of title signed by Lincoln.
Very hard to read original says in city of Washington DC at the bottom.
That's really terrific!
You've mentioned chain of title somewhere else on here and it piqued my interest. I'm going to have to get started on this... only thing I know is that a whole lot of the folks in the SW would be in doo-doo if someone came out of the woodwork and could prove they were an ancestor of someone who received a Spanish or Mexican Land grant.
That is true - todays titles can be run right over by someone with a patent. They would have to pick up their stuff and move.
The site the Rookie posted is the best I've seen on explaining this. I have a bit more work to do on my patent - got the papers together though.
http://teamlaw.org/
Check out the forum and the title Land 101 in the land patents section of the forum. You'll get lost in there once you start reading.
Any idea what the worst thing that could happen if you go ahead and build your cabin or cottage w/e, install your own septic or composting toilet/grey water system, without the required permits? From what I understand being on a public water system they would shut that off. I have also heard threats of placing a non comforming building mark on the land title. I have also read in my district listed in thier by laws a threat of 6 months in jail and a fine of up to $10000 and a new charge for each day it continues. Pretty heavy threats imo. Also im a bit concerned by taking out a building permit, you pay them money, yet they come and inspect but they are not at all liable in any way. It also states on the building permit form that you should seek advise form a laywer prior to signing.
This is a funny write up on building inspectors.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Bill/sizemore49.htm
Hard to say and varies from place to place. When you sign the building permit you are contracting with them to be in subjection to the -- IE: giving up your rights -- that is why they are warning you but they won't tell you that.
North of the bay area they dozed a hippy community - a guy invited friends to build on his land-- but they left his un-permitted house because legally they couldn't touch it.
I would suggest reading the Land 101 article on the above linked site to see how to get protection from the "color of law" laws and agencies -- then be prepared for a fight -- they probably won't give you your rights easily. Staying under the radar is a good thing too.
Siggers, not just funny --- true -- and accurate. Nice to see someone who sees things correctly.
Thoughts on why you cant do as you please many times from the middle east.
from: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/arabic_islamic_architecture/26962
QuoteThe Lesson of New Gourna
Although these structures were well suited to the climate and customs of the region, this type of building was not able to be revived in Egypt to any large degree. Industrialization had taken its effect on the Third World for better or worse, which meant that what was modern was what the Western world was creating. Just as the West had ignored the value of the cultures it had subordinated during imperialist rule, native thinkers in those same countries ignored the power and appeal of Industrialization and what it offered people.Fathy's experiment at New Gourna failed not because it was not a valid experiment or because it had nothing to offer but because his philosophy underestimated the force it was up against. His ideas on the value of tradition and nationality were reasonable and well intentioned, but powerless.
Perhaps now with a return to national/cultural pride and preservation of the past in the Middle East, partly due to thinkers like Fathy, some of his ideas can be taken much more seriously. His beliefs that what is modern and new is not necessarily what is best for a people and that certain traditions exist because they are well suited to a culture or region have certainly taken hold. Those in the field of sustainability have come to realize that vernacular architecture, often centuries old, is more earth-friendly and will sustain us longer than the much more recent building techniques we see in the Western world today. This is one positive lesson we can take from New Gourna. It may not have been what the people were seeking, but it was enough to suit their needs for a long time. Despite these lessons, in the aftermath of Industrialization Hassan Fathy's ideas could not be applied in pure form and the experiment at New Gourna can never be repeated. Sadly, New Gourna represents not just one man's unsuccessful experiment but an architectural tradition that will never exist again as it once had.
QuoteI'm thinking about the southern Oklahoma area...
Maybe northern TX? Just found out that the land we're closing on in Fannin county does not require any permits except for septic. If someone was to do composting toilets there is no reason to ever contact a goobermint agency.
This thread brings up some interesting stuff, once things settle down ('08 maybe ;D) I'll be reading up on it.
Welcome to the forum.
08 - You referring to - after the dictatorship is in full swing? ;D