Need Roof, Have No Plans

[John_C]

I've occasionally seen them stacked together upside down on a roof.  That would exert a lot of outward force on the walls.  Is that a common practice?  

[glenn kangiser]

I have seen it done that way - truss crane truck or reach forklift throws them up there then a couple guys move them along and roll them up into place and fasten and brace them off.  I would assume the walls have temporary braces nailed to the floor to keep them stable.

[SansPlans]

Hi again everyone. So I had a lumber company tell me with their engineering stuff how to frame up the roof so I'm going to do that instead of trusses. I poured the bond beam recently by grinding out a channel with a grinder and stuffing some holes with tar paper as was suggested earlier in this thread. It worked well. The pour was a disaster though...had a big concrete pumping crane come and the guy wouldn't slow down the flow (aggregate didn't fit down between rebar so I had to push it through with my hands which ripped my hands up badly even though I was wearing gloves) and there was no way I could have put bolts down in the concrete before it dried since I was by myself until the very end.  My hands are healing up well now and I'm ready do the next step.

So the question is: the next step on my roof is to mount the top plate (Pressure Treated 2x6 as was suggested in this thread).  I am chiseling the top flat with an air chisel because it is somewhat bumpy. I'm almost done with that. In the absence of bolts anchored into the concrete, what is the best way to attach the pressure treated 2x6 to the top of the block wall? I have all my lumber on order and am just waiting to figure out this step before proceeding. I'm thinking something like a 2 1/2" concrete nailer from Harbor Freight http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90342 and lots of Construction Adhesive, but I am investigating all suggestions before proceeding.

Thanks everyone for your help and input.

[FrankInWI]

anyone esle do this?  When I see a word that is new to me or I am only slightly familiar with; i. e. John said "flying buttress" I go to Google and on the IMAGES pages I do a search of it.  Wow....look at dem Flying Buttresses!  
I do this for lots of building things, lots of pictures....and each one is worth 1000 words....sometimes.

[John Raabe]

Yep, that's a great trick!

And then you can even pop the image into your post using the picture frame icon and look even smarter!

[SansPlans]

Nice. Does anyone have any input on my question?
Thanks!

[JRR]

If all else fails, you can always install a tie-down means to the roof system after the trusses are in place.  For instance; A long tie-down strap that begins at the inside of the wall, bolted to the footing ... goes up the inside wall, over the top plate, down the outside wall to the footing for anchorage.  

A few of these, placed between trusses could keep the roof in place during winds.  The straps need a slack take-up means on both sides of the walls so they can be left in high tension.  Some engineering input would be needed for sizing.  

A bit of cosmetic covering of masonry contact cement could keep the straps from view.

[SansPlans]

Is there a reason I couldn't use a bunch of tapcon concrete anchor screws? I just am not sure how determine how much holding power I need.  

[glenn kangiser]

Tapcons are too small.  You could either use 5/8 inch or so expansion bolts with washers or bolts such as PEG posted before which screw into the concrete like Tapcons but are larger.  

Probably minimum of 4 inches embedment so I'd use about 6 inch bolts.  You can rent a Rotohammer with a proper sized bit.  There are several brands of bolts -- you just screw them in with an impact wrench.  If you don't have an impact wrench then the expansion anchors such as RedHeads will work fine.  Blow the holes out before installing the bolts.

http://www.itwredhead.com/trubolt.asp


Apparently they now have LDT's -- large diameter Tapcons which are similar to the type PEG posted.

http://www.itwredhead.com/ldt_prod01.asp

[MarkAndDebbie]

Check out this related thread with me and my missing rebar - worked great.
http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1184979778/5

[SansPlans]

Tapcons are too small.  You could either use 5/8 inch or so expansion bolts with washers or bolts such as PEG posted before which screw into the concrete like Tapcons but are larger.  

Probably minimum of 4 inches embedment so I'd use about 6 inch bolts.  You can rent a Rotohammer with a proper sized bit.  There are several brands of bolts -- you just screw them in with an impact wrench.  If you don't have an impact wrench then the expansion anchors such as RedHeads will work fine.  Blow the holes out before installing the bolts.

How do you think would be best to space them, and in what pattern? I have 150 feet of this to do so I want to keep the cost as low as possible since I'm on a budget but I also don't want the roof flying off in a storm or something embarrassing like that.

I was thinking I think I will go with the Large Diameter Tapcons, because they look like they would pose the least interference with the rest of the framing job. They look like they won't stick up as much.  Hopefully I can find them at Home Depot.  I have a bosch hammer drill http://www.internationaltool.com/hammer.htm like this one that has handled drilling lots of 1" holes in limestone and concrete so I thankfully think I can use that for driving the tapcons and doing the predrilling.

Thanks again everyone, this input is very helpful.

[JRR]

Another anchor method available to you:  Use a carbide bit and drill thru, horizontally, some select locations (voids) of some of the first course blocks.  Then a faily inexpensive regular bolt, with nut, put thru the wall, will give you a nice anchorage.  Not the footing ... but I bet the bottom of that wall will never move very far.

[glenn kangiser]

I don't know if you have a code to meet or if you can since they were not in originally.  Some of the info I have seen says minimum 1/2 inch anchor 7" deep at max 6' OC and 12" from each end.  Another place recommended every 32 inches - another place said 4 inches embedment.

If there are any officials wanting to spec max distances I would ask them.   Use washers also.

[SansPlans]

I don't know if you have a code to meet or if you can since they were not in originally.  Some of the info I have seen says minimum 1/2 inch anchor 7" deep at max 6' OC and 12" from each end.  Another place recommended every 32 inches - another place said 4 inches embedment.

If there are any officials wanting to spec max distances I would ask them.   Use washers also.

Ok that sounds good to me, thanks!  One last thing...am I just going down the middle of the 2x6 or do I need to do two for each place I bolt?

Fortunately there are no officials that are inspecting this operation.

[glenn kangiser]

One down the center - each place will be stronger than the wood anyway.

[SansPlans]

Hi everyone.
Wow those redhead anchors are sweet. They are very easy to use, priced reasonably and feel very sturdy.

I have my top plate all on and am most of the way done w/ my ceiling joists.

Here is a pic.  I just have to go pick up a couple more 2x10x20's (I am short four ceiling joists) and then I'm ready to start doing rafters....however that works. I'm not sure what holds up the ridge board before you put the rafters on, but hopefully that will become evident with time.

Is there an easy way to attach more than one picture to a post?

[MountainDon]

Temporary braces hold the ridge until you have enough rafters in place. I'm sure PEG will have a photo ot two to illustrate. I know there are some photos illustrative of the method someplace on the forum, but don't have a clue where.  

As for posting pictures the best way is to open a  https://www.photobucket.com  account. It's free. You upload the pictures to there, can setup folders for different stuff. Then you copy the IMG CODE tag (bottom of 4 choices) and paste that code in the message. When someone views the post the system grabs the image from photobucket and shows it in your message.

There's some image posting info here  http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1115032671

[PEG688]

 Any subfloor on top of those joist?

If not trow some sheet up to make a deck to work off.

Temp up your ridge "close " and put one rafter up fasten to the wall plates , then to the ridge . then do the other side rafter the same way , plate first , then break the ridge brd free and  move your ridge  to meet your  other rafter. Temp brace so it doesn't just fall over , then go do the other end the same way. fill in , in between . do a set one each end working your way back from both end of that section of ridge . You do not need the full lenght of ridge up in place before you start.

 

Two guys can do it three is easier , beginners might want more . We (two of us ) framed  that roof up on a windy winter day , it was hoot! bolwn about 30 MPH with gust to 40 or so IIRC

I'd recommend you pick a nicer day

On # of photos I just keep posting them , stack them one below the other , not side ways when you insert them . I don't think there is a limit per post like on some other forums . If there is I never hit the limit and I 've posted  a lot of photos in one  post.

G/L on that roof , PEG

[glenn kangiser]

On the photos - don't use the little box on the compose message box.  Use the Photobucket Don mentioned above -then multiples can be done as PEG mentioned.

[SansPlans]

Ok that sounds like a good way to do it.

I'm going to start bright and early tomorrow but I have two more questions.

1. What kind of board should I use for the ridge board? The lumber company gave me all kinds of stuff but I don't have anyway of knowing what piece(s) are for the ridge board.  Is it a 2x6? a 2x8? 2x10? The rafter boards they gave me are 2"x6"x22' and the span of the roof is 39' and the slope is 4/12.
2. How much should the ridge board over hang the end of the house? When I built my daughters little 4' high play house, I didn't overhang the ridge board at all and realized too late it was a mistake.

Ok one more question.  

3. To Simpson tie or not Simpson tie? I went ahead and bought some simpson ties type RR (ridge rafter)  http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/RR.html to connect to the after to the ridge board.  I realize now that using these will preclude using a framing nailer (If I'm wrong here please let me know), and will necessitate gobs of nailing by hand.  Do simpson ties make it any easier to frame a roof for the first time, and do they give you more 'leeway', or are they solely beneficial for the additional strength they provide?  They weren't that expensive and we have had some rowdy weather lately that made me wonder if my roof would be ripped off one day, so I thought I would pick some up and decide whether or not to use them when the time came.

Thanks everyone. I am really excited to finally be at this stage and I appreciate everyone's help with clearing up the details.

[PEG688]

A: [highlight] I have two more questions.[/highlight]

     Humm looks like more than two , you even wrote 3.    

1. What kind of board should I use for the ridge board?


  [highlight]The 2x8[/highlight]




2. How much should the ridge board over hang the end of the house?

 [highlight]Seldom does the ridge itself overhang , it can overhang but it is not absolutly neccessary. On most truss roofs there is no ridge board , you use let in "outlookers " to extend the eaves.

Common eave overhangs are 12" , 18" and 24". So it depends. Yes Glenn breakum out again!   [/highlight]


  

3. To Simpson tie or not Simpson tie?

[highlight]Never used them with a ridge , I have used similar rafter ties where a shed roof and ledger where in play. IMO they will make the job harder, and not increase the strenght factor.

Use 16d nails the first one gunned right thru the ridge brd , the other nails driven at a angle right beside the just out in place "other side rafter" in a 2x6 you should get three 16d in each rafter , you can nail above the ridge and down into the second rafter of each set. [/highlight]

 Do simpson ties make it any easier to frame a roof for the first time,

[highlight]  Don't know but IMO they'd be in the way.[/highlight]


and do they give you more 'leeway', or are they solely beneficial for the additional strength they provide?


 [highlight]IMO no additional strenght could be gained over proper 16d placement. And if you use a gun , have a hammer handy as gns just don't suck things together like a hammer does , done be afraid to beat the livin daylights out of things to move a rafter down , the ridge over , tame a big crowned ridge , etc . Show the wood who's the boss![/highlight]
 

quote]


You should get and use some H1's and where a H1 will not fit use H2.5's to tie the seat cuts to the top plates. Up lift is the roof destroyer in high wind, the ridge area / connections seldom,  if ever , fail. The key is holding the  edge / soffits  down and  connected at  the top plates.

 G/L  PEG

[PEG688]

Here's few more photos , you may be able to see the nail heads going thru the ridge into the other side rafter.



Also note the ridge is not one piece in this case , code here requires the whole lenght of the ridge cut be supported , you don't have code issues so if that 2x8 doesn't totally fill the ridge cut do not sweat it , thousands of home s dot the nation who have either no ridge board at all , just butted rafters , or 1x ridge boards , pieces of  siding etc.

 That ridge is a 2x12 with a 2x6 , ripped down to 4 1/2" IIRC.  Total waste of good wood IMO, but it meets code  

One key to  strong roof is good cuts and a good collar tie system, that collar tie makes a triangle which adds tons of  strength.

 

Note that nail pattern , thats your biggest strength booster, the properly nailed collar tie. In the old days , generally , the collar tie was a 1x6.  

[SansPlans]

I don't think the nails I put my nail gun are graded like 16d, they are referred to by gauge. My nailer is an 8-10 gauge nailer.  Is that 16d?

Thanks for the other info, I will reconsider using the rafter simpson ties. I did pick up some of the rafter-to-top-plate ties you are talking about and will for sure use those.

One of the reasons (gasps from all the experienced builders) I thought the simpson rafter ties might be good is because in case there are some gaps from my rafters it would still hold it on good.  I think I will probably play it by ear, and if the rafters are working out well then I will forgo the rafter ties but if I'm having trouble and think it might not be strong enough then I can start using them.

[PEG688]

  What gun is it? If it's a framing nailer it will shoot 16d nails , BTW I never buy "true" 16d nails for our guns I get 12d's just a little shorter 1/4" IIRC they drive easier and do the same job , just easier.  

I'm sure if Manhatten where still here he'd freak out , again Eh Glenn  

[glenn kangiser]

Depends, -- we gottem.