CountryPlans Forum

I've been bumbling around looking for really efficient ways to refrigerate food.  I stumbled across this:

http://mtbest.net/chest_fridge.html

The "inventor" is in Australia, which makes me wonder about the "type" of electricity that he is producing.

I know in some countries it is supplied differently than in the US, so I suppose the parts might be different.

But it is a pretty "cool" idea.   Any feedback?

thats amazing....

i was going to be getting a propane fridge but if this is as good as the article says I'll be looking into chest fridges.

Thanks for posting this

I've seen that before and it is interesting. The big drawback is that a chest refrigerator is a hard sell to most people. It doesn't matter to most people that is could be super efficient, chest types are a PITA for accessing the contents. Even with sliding baskets, and so on I could never sell the idea to my wife. I'm not that hot on the idea either... too much like my big camping cooler I can never find stuff in. Maybe that's just me.  ???

BTW AU runs 240 VAC 50 Hz so you'd need to modify the circuit/parts to adjust to our 120 VAC 60 Hz.

FWIW; power around the world

http://www.kropla.com/electric2.htm (http://www.kropla.com/electric2.htm)

One of the reasons the guy in AU designed that controller was it doesn't use any power when the freezer/fridge is not running. A simpler approach would be to buy an off the shelf external thermostat. They're commonly available from home brew suppliers. Here's one.

http://www.hoptech.com/cart/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16419&substring=thermostat (http://www.hoptech.com/cart/cart.php?target=product&product_id=16419&substring=thermostat)

You can use one of those to turn ant freezer into a refrigerator.

More controllers

http://www.northernbrewer.com/temp-control.html (http://www.northernbrewer.com/temp-control.html)

That was a great idea with the outside thermometer.  We have the Conserv freezer - a great efficient unit --- too efficient to be listed on energy star when we bought it.  Got it at Lowe's I think - special order.

Of course there is one downside to converting a freezer to a refrigerator. ...  [waiting]

You no longer have a freezer or a freezer compartment.



The truly "crafty" person could build their own high efficiency refrigerator using a Danfoss 12/24 VDC compressor. They're used in boats a lot as well as some high end RV products. Do some Googling. They are not inexpensive though.

A additional note. Unlike domestic refrigerators freezers usually have their condenser coils embedded just under the metal skin of the sides. I mention this just in case anyone thinks of adding exterior insulation to a freezer.

I used the infrared non-contact thermometer and determined that the lid on ours did not have condenser coils there but the sides did.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives/

http://www.loghomebuilders.org/chest-fridge-revisted

http://thesietch.org/mysietch/greenspree/2007/07/16/chest-fridge-controversy/

http://www.energyconservationinfo.org/chestfridge.htm

http://shtfmilitia.com/viewtopic.php?p=538#538

http://www.ehow.com/PrintArticle.html?id=2239641

http://readymademag.com/projectsblog/project.php?project=ELG9RUYF5LD3PF6

http://www.instructables.com/id/SUAMDDZF5LD3Q1W/

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Convert-a-mini-fridge-to-a-chest-refrigerat/

http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/blogs/diy-hacks/7255

http://peakoilready.com/blog/2007/12/19/super-efficient-chest-fridge-with-pictures/

http://thesietch.org/mysietch/greenspree/2007/06/14/chest-fridge-rack-system/

http://www.boatelectric.com/Nova%20Box%20Building%20Plan%20for%20the%20LT200-F%20Kit.htm

Here are 2 thermostats specifically meant for controlling the temperature of chest freezers, with a different outcome in mind: creating the right temperature for beer and wine. It would serve the same purpose, though, to convert a freezer to refrigerator temperature.

http://ceisites.com/9025.html
http://www.morebeer.com/product.html?product_id=16663

NELSELGNE,

I especially like the following statement which I found looking through your links.  :)

Simply put, it'd be too "inconvenient" for most Americans. Having to bend over and reach down for what you want is more trouble than most folks want to tolerate. People want to be inconvenienced as little as possible. People buy 'fridges with ice makers in the door, not because it's energy efficient, but because all they got to do is put their glass there, and the 'fridge does the rest.

Jochen

Quote from: Jochen on December 14, 2008, 12:18:05 PM
Simply put, it'd be too "inconvenient" for most Americans.

I doubt that this only applies to Americans. A quick Google of European and Japanese appliances brought up nothing but regular looking vertical refrigerators. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't want to insult anybody. And I agree that the vertical type of fridges is pretty common everywhere. But I can tell you from my own experience living in Europe for more then 30 years that chest freezer are very common in Europe as well.

Jochen

We don't bend over for a Fridge, but do for our freezers.  2 chest Freezers - 2 Vertical Fridge, but the old one uses only about 1/4 of the power of the modern ones.

This is one I found on Photobucket - 1933 Monitor Top GE-- I think ours is about 1934 - exactly like this one.

Rated at 200 watts runs for about 8 minutes per hour.

(https://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e111/lindydiva/House/GEMonitorTop_1930.jpg)

Quote from: Jochen on December 15, 2008, 01:43:01 AM
... that chest freezer are very common in Europe as well.

Jochen, nobody's insulted, at least not me. Not to belabor the point, you stated chest freezer is common in Europe. The question here is chest refrigerator.

We have a chest freezer, and an upright refrigerator. The chest freezer is not that big a deal, every so often we dig through and bring an assortment up to the surface. It's the refrigerator I/we/my wife have a problem with in chest form. They are not convenient to use. Period!

We have a 23 cu ft bottom freezer refrigerator. Yes the "cold" spills out of either section whenever a door is opened. However, it seems to me to be a good compromise, it does have a favorable energy star rating and it's convenient to access.

Having commonly used items such as milk, orange juice, apple juice, soy sauce, salad dressings available in the door trays is very convenient. The shelves with the leftovers in containers, jug of iced tea, carton(s) of eggs, sour cream, cream cheese, butter or buttery spread, the drawers full of apples, oranges, grapefruit, lettuce, parsnips etc. are also more convenient than baskets and loose storage in the bottom of a chest style unit.

We have come a long ways since the days when the average household refrigerator consumed 1400+ KwH of electrical power a year.

My point was also that it is not only "Americans" that find the upright refrigerator most convenient. The upright refrigerator also seems to be most popular in other parts of the world. How many of the nearly 6000 members of this CP forum use chest refrigerators? Chest units may be the most energy efficient form, but they are never going to be the most common format, IMO. Not for a refrigerator, accessed sevral times a day; maybe for a freezer, accessed maybe once a day.

Just my opinion, everyone else may disagree.

As I stated before, a DIY chest refrigerator still leaves one without a freezer. Most folks find a freezer indispensable.

With electric power costing us an average of roughly 8 cents per kilowatt-hour we can afford to want convenience.  Let's see how important that convenience is when power goes to 80 cents per kWh. 

While I haven't read all the links listed above, it seems that most of what I have read about converting chest type freezers into refrigerators is that it is done when power costs are prohibitive -or- for off-grid applications. 

One way to avoid some of the cold spillage with a bottom freezer vertical reefer is to get the kind with a big freezer drawer that pulls out, providing at least some of the advantage of a chest freezer, plus making the contents more accessible.

One problem with chest type reefers of any substantial size is the footprint they take up in the house. The verticals are more efficient from that perspective.

I like the chest refridge idea, I was debating not having a freezer at all in my new home. I wonder if a person could get by on canning their own foods. ???

Quote from: wildbil on December 15, 2008, 09:41:31 PM
I wonder if a person could get by on canning their own foods. ???

Absolutely. My Mom and Grandmother used to can all sorts of veggies and fruits way back when, before home freezers were readily availble. We had a pantry in the basement that was lined with Mason and Jewel jars full of home grown and home canned food.

However, when home freezers became more reasonably priced Mom switched to freezing veggies. It was less work, and for my two cents worth, frozen taste much better than canned, even home canned.


I would not like to try to get by without a freezer. One of the things we use it for is to freeze the left over half of a big stew, crock pot dinner, etc. for use a couple or more weeks down the road. Cook once, eat twice or even three times.

...possible if you can somehow get away from the rat race and incessant interest, taxes, permits, fees and licenses and the need to earn money to pay for them.  The old days were simpler with less demands and more time to can food, etc.  Mortgage free and no interest could help but then -- I haven't totally been there yet.  Just a taste of what it could be like at the underground complex.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on December 16, 2008, 12:05:19 AM
The old days were simpler with less demands and more time to can food, etc. 

I think the demands were different, but there were lots of them.

My parents had a mortgage. Dad worked 10+ hour days delivering milk; first door to door and later to stores, to pay for it and the other necessities of life. I have memories of their mortgage burning party, and that of my aunts and uncles. Mom worked at home doing all the domestic things. Laundry with a wringer washer and clothes line. No automatic washer and dryer. She cleaned floors with a sweeper and beat rugs with a rug beater. She polished hardwood floors with a polisher that consisted of a handle attached to a cast iron slab with a felt pad under it. Dad had to load the coal burner boiler with coal every other day or so, during the winter. Plus he had to haul the ashes out. Mom cooked all the meals from scratch. In summer it was she who did most of the work weeding the garden. It was also her and grandmother who canned the vegetables, made pickles, sauerkraut, canned fruit, made jams and jellies, head cheese, etc. I can remember plucking chickens, using burning newspaper to singe them clean, cutting and canning them. I remember stirring the pot, making soap, after rendering the pork fat, grinding meats for stuffing sausages, cutting beef with a handsaw... Mom baked great breads and pastries. July and August were very hot months. I recall the difficulty in getting to sleep with the temperature and humidity hovering in the 80's.

My mother loved the electric floor polisher she got after my Dad had to do the housework after my first sister was born. Ditto, the Hoover vacuum. She also loved the modern multi-cycle clothes washer that freed her from having to manually rinse clothes and then run them through the wringer. Ditto the gas clothes dryer in December through March. Manitoba winters are very cold and hanging clothes out to dry when it's 30 degrees below zero and the wind is blowing is not fun. My Mom appreciated the acquisition of the freezer; it saved her hours of time canning and preserving foods. I recall the installation of the natural gas boiler conversion and how much extra space we had in the basement with the stoker and coal bin gone, not to mention the reduced chores. (By then I was hauling ashes). Today I love my 19 SEER air conditioning and the relief it provides from the extreme 90 degree tempratures of the day.

I enjoyed going out every fall / early winter and cutting a year's worth of firewood. Hauling it home, splitting it in January, stacking it neatly for the next year's use, However, I also appreciate being connected to the natural gas system today.

I also remember good times on the farm, having fun driving the tractor, the combine. I was too young to realize it was hard work. I liked to drive the machinery or the '48 Ford two ton truck on trips to haul gain to the grain Co-Op in town. Plinking with the 22 single shot Savage is still a joy. Except the single shot action now is a drag and I do prefer a bolt or semi-automatic action.

So I guess what I'm trying to state is that the "old days" were a lot of hard work. Nothing wrong with that in many ways, but I appreciate modern day conveniences. Life was still good back then, I had a lot of fun with my friends playing cops and robbers, war, cowboys and Indians, all outdoors and without a care in the world.  Digging snow caves and getting buried in their collapse.

I also appreciate having an automobile, or two, or three, today, just as much as my Dad appreciated his first car in 1957. It saved him having to ride a bicycle to and from work 6 miles each way every work day; or having to take a streetcar/bus. I appreciate being able to buy a piece of recreational land in the mountains, something no one in my family ever had the luxury of in the past. I am the first! I appreciate having modern technologies like the internet, and the other labor saving devices that give me the time to spend time on the internet. I appreciate my cordless tools, portable generator, GPS. K loves her computerized sewing machine; my Mom had a treadle operated sewing machine for many years. I was fascinated by the mechanism, but my Mom thought her first motorized Singer was the cat's meow. (Cat's meow - Something considered to be outstanding... Coined by American cartoonist Thomas a. Dorgan (1877-1929) whose work appears in many American newspapers.)

And lastly I appreciate modern day medical services. Without those I would likely have been dead twice, more than likely three times.

It's not all bad today. There are many things to be thankful for. Of course, others opinions may vary. All in all if it was possible to choose another time to be born unto, I don't think I'd make a change.

Chest refrigerators are very common in sail boats.  I have been talking to many builders and dealers and many are switching over to uprights.  The reason that they give is that in theory and in the lab chest fridges perform better, but in real life applications people spend more time looking and organizing chest fridges and they are less efficiant in practice.

Quote from: Squirl on December 16, 2008, 07:58:05 AM
Chest refrigerators are very common in sail boats.  I have been talking to many builders and dealers and many are switching over to uprights.  The reason that they give is that in theory and in the lab chest fridges perform better, but in real life applications people spend more time looking and organizing chest fridges and they are less efficiant in practice.

I seriously doubt that's the reason.  I lived on a boat for about 10 years and built several chest style refrigerators.  They were extremely efficient with 6" of urethane foam and a radiant barrier. Since the cold air didn't fall out the instant the door was opened they lost very little by opening the top. In addition food didn't fall out when you opened the door in rolling seas.

My guess is that people have been wanting ever bigger fridges as they have wanted their boats to be more like home. Many of these boats seldom leave the marina and even more seldom make offshore passages. They spend a lot of time connected to dockside power and have generous onboard generating capacity. For them a fridge from "Sears" is just fine.

My own boat had an ice box. 6" foam & radiant barrier... a block of ice would last 3 weeks in FL, the Bahamas, Virgin Islands, or Puerto Rico.  It wasn't worth the headache of mechanical refrigeration. I have no idea if you could even find block ice today,  bag ice would probably take a week off the fridge's capability.

my beer fridge is setup nearly the same way as this.  I now am on my second one having rebuilt after the first freezer died. 

I used a process similar to these for the setup, I'll post some pictures of the setup if anyone is interested. 

http://www.oregonbrewcrew.com/freezer/freezer.html
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jkelm2/www/2005-09-23_Kegerator_Construction/
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1986/42894/kegerator.htm

Inside my collar I added polystyrene foil backed foam board for insulation and sealed everything up with metallic aluminum tape.  There is zero condensation on it so I think it does ok in that department.  Even in the heat of summer in an un-insulated garage with no air conditioning the light comes on at the bottom of the freezer just a few minutes an hour if that.  I like beer set between 38-41 degrees.  I built up a small shelf so aside from the 4 kegs I also can put just regular drinks and water in there. 

I used a Johnson Controls analog temp controller, in fact the first item in the link Don posted is exactly what I have used for years.  I even bought it from that company.  (nb rocks)

Okay... don't laugh.

I've been thinking about trying to build an icebox for my cabin for awhile.  I think that if I over-insulate, I can use a couple of blocks of ice to keep the thing pretty cold for quite awhile.  Seems to me the trick is to never use them to cool food down, only to keep them cold. 

I even thought of trying to find a way to build it into the floor, but the geometry just would not work.  I think I will end up building it into the counter top, probably right next to the small pantry. 

I had also considered building it outside, put on the north side of the cabin, but access to that would not be easy for my kitchen staff  ::)

That would work Frank. If you froze water in a couple of gallon milk/water type jugs and hauled it up there in one of the extreme type coolers, that would be your ice and they would last a long time I'm sure. I've been doing that for desert camping for years. Up in the Jemez in the summer the RV fridge is a little small for protracted stays. I use the big Extreme cooler with two frozen jugs and they keep over a week.

I like the jugs as that prevents the cooler from filling up with melt water. There is some condensation inside.

I don't want to do something like that for our cabin as we'd like to be able to leave eggs, margarine, drinks, pickles, cheese, whatever in the fridge when we go back to town for a day or two...

Thanks Don,

I was trying to figure out a simple way to put in a drain to get rid of the ice melt and condensate... I think that your idea of using milk jugs is a great way to go.  Keep the frozen stuff on the bottom, drinks, milk, cheese, lunchmeat near the top. Should last quite awhile.  Maybe a bin in the bottom for ice cubes.  keeping the water in jugs I could probably do without any drainage and seal it up even tighter.

I'm sort of getting an idea in my head for using a cabinet base that has this chest built into the top, with a hinged counter top.  Below that in the cabinet base a pull out drawer or two. 

Hmmmm....another winter project!

-f-

Use one cooler for ice, only open it once a day.  I have two coleman "extreme" coolers, will keep ice cubes for a week, if you don't open it.  I like to add 10# block of dry ice wrapped in newspaper to the block ice.  I get into it once a day to grab some ice for the other cooler.   I've made it 10 days with the dry ice/ice combo.  Like you said, toughest thing is getting the food cold...trying to chill beer for 4 guys takes a lot of ice...Luckily, Lake Superior can get the drinks to the low 50's...

Yes, I've used dry ice too on ice on longer desert trips in the past/

There is another method to keep the water away from the food, and allow the use store bought blocks... though the last place I recall seeing block was at one of the marina's on Lake Powell... most places only seem to have crushed/cube for sale..

Have some galvanized sheet steel boxes made about the size of an ice block. That would keep the ice/water away from the food. You could even freeze water in them yourself. Just another idea. Not original... way back when there was door to door milk delivery the trucks back home used a metl box like this for ice in the wooden butter box, keeping it cool and dry.

I don't mean to be off topic, but I wanted to comment on Don's post about the differences in today and past times.

I find your observations a fair and realistic comparison of the times. I must add that just because a chore is now delegated to a machine like laundry washers/dryers, dish washers, and other electrical appliances, does not mean they actually save any time. You must now work to pay for these time saving devices therefore negating their advantage. There was also two different sources of energy. Today we rely almost purely on electricity which may or may not be from a renewable resource. "Back then" there was Human power, where things were ran from an entirely easy and cheap resource. The human resource is still around, mostly unused, building up [hungry],especially in the United States.

I'm not say any era was superior to the other; I'm just saying that for people like me who aren't happy with how things are going today in my world, The past can provide valuable lessons and options.

Sorry this has nothing to do with the chest refridgerator.

Quote from: wildbil on December 16, 2008, 09:48:30 PM
... does not mean they actually save any time. You must now work to pay for these time saving devices therefore negating their advantage. ...

Don't worry overly about the topic drift, this one's not too bad.

I guess what I missed in that post of mine, was that it was my perception that as my parents worked and saved and bought those labor savings devices (cash, no credit) they had more time for other things. Dad worked about the same number of hours but did more hobby woodworking, Mom did more volunteer work at the church and joined a ladies sewing group.

My view is that they became able to do more things that were non essential to the direct running and upkeep of the home. They had reached a point where they could participate in more activities by choice, for personal enjoyment.

OMMV (Others Mileage May Vary)

"I think I will end up building it into the counter top" 

Now this is an idea I like. 

"keeping the water in jugs I could probably do without any drainage and seal it up even tighter."

In combination.  One could end up paying for the purchase and electrical "expense" of an efficient chest freezer on the enclosed porch on the cold side of the house that freezes the water filled milk jugs that supply the "extreme" chest cooler/fridge/icebox under a portion of the kitchen counter, which is actually the facing of the cooler door.  Cause if I'm reading these posts right, an average upright fridge uses more electricity than an average chest freezer. (?)

Now we're getting somewhere. 

How big of a chest freezer would be required. With a plan like just suggested would the chest freezer also be used for frozen foods? A quick perusal of the energy star rating on refrigerators and freezers (http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=refrig.pr_refrigerators) finds that the chest freezer with the least annual power use to be a 5.5 cu. ft Haier. It is rated at 193 KwH per year. An 8.8 cu ft Frigidaire chest freezer runs 282 KwH annual. A 15 cu ft Frigidaire chest freezer runs 357 KwH annual.

For comparison a Sunfrost RF-12 (12 cu ft total, refrigerator with top freezer) is rated at 171 KwH. Sunfrost is regarded as being the most efficient appliance out there. I have heard/read good and bad about them.   :-\

A more or less standard refrigerator with top freezer, a 15 cu ft Frigidaire, runs 354 KwH annual.

So what's it all mean?

A 5.5 cu ft Haier chest freezer uses slightly more power than a 'gold standard" Sunfrost RF-12 fridge/freezer. But you'd have a bigger freezer. I don't know if the cycling of water jugs would fall under the parameters of whatever constitutes normal use for the tests. You could have a reasonable sized chest style ice box powered by your own ice making ability.   ??? ???  Should work fine until you're absent for an extended period.

On the other hand the 15 cu ft "normal" refrigerator costs a whole lot less than the Sunfrost and uses not quite twice as much power as the Sunfrost RF-12 or the Haier chest freezer.  Spend the difference between the Sunfrost and the Frigidaire on another PV panel or two and some more batteries if you're off grid, and that could be an option as well. And no fuss with the jugs of water/ice.

Lots of ways to go. Each of us has to find that balance of energy use vs convenience.  There's also a difference in overall application to consider; Frank is looking at occasional deep backcountry use, considerations is looking at a full time residence and I'm looking at weekend use most of the year with the cabin sitting there unattended plus full time for a three month summer run. There's no one size fits all solution, id there?

Sassy wanted the bottom sliding freezer and French doors so that is what we got - the smallest LG one but it is nice to have all the ice we want, but we are still working on beefing up the PV and solar system to keep up all of the time.  Generator boost now as needed.

The chest would be much more efficient but we didn't want the hassle and didn't have the room.

NM_Shooter, 

I like the idea of the frozen jugs.  The prevailing wisdom in cruising is that ice in water doesn't last as long. The general rule for boats it to put in drainage for the water.  This can help the ice last twice as long.  They usually put a drain down to the bilge.  It is recommended in every cruising world article and cruising book I have read.  They also recommend using block ice instead of cubes. (less surface area) I don't know how this would apply to a house setup where weight and size are not a factor.

Ice in water vs draining.

Years ago I read the same thing, ice left in it's own melt does not last as long as the ice in a cooler than was drained. This was a beer cooler test and they made another point. The beer in the cooler with melt water retained was colder. So sometimes it depends what is best to do.  ;)

I would sometimes decant the melt from the jugs and use it for drinking water.

I wonder if a refrigerator using solar would be viable.  The collectors could be on the sunward side, and the fridge on the north side, where it is nice and shady.  In many northern parts of the country, it should be able to work well most if not all of the year.  Or how about a hydro, or wind powered compressor motor?  Don't know about you, but when electricity gets to 80c per kwh, we will probably be going back in time to the days of ice boxes, springhouses, and root cellars.  Meat could be cured too.  Our fridge is usually empty anyway!  Dont have enough money to keep it filled!  One of the nice things about homestead life, fresh milk only needs a cool dark place, same with cheese and butter, eggs don't need refrigeration, just no light, vegetables are canned for use out of season, or consumed fresh and in season, and meats are preserved or eaten fresh.  Fresh meat, and so with meat in general, wasn't as big a part of many diets as we like to think it was, until refrigeration became common and cheap.

then again too, when power goes up to 80c per kwh, minimum wage will probably be somewhere around $90 per hour (California today, x 10)!  If not, I for one just won't have it anymore.

couldnt a chest unit be run off of 220 here in US, using all of this guys stuff?  I have read that 220 is a more efficient means of delivery, and uses fewer watts for the same work.  Dont know for fact though.

Block ice lasts much longer than cubes.  I never found draining the ice box into the bilge to be a great idea.  There are always a few bits of food that get down there and then slosh into every corner of the bilge,  You wind up having to put a cup of clorox in the bilge every week to control the odor.  It's not big deal to sponge out the water if the ice box is small or to provide a catchment in a larger box.  It's also not a good idea to just have a straight shot drain to the bilge without a way to close it, a lot of cold air can escape that way. 

I lived for almost 10 years with an ice box on my 27' boat.  I built some for other small boats and some for fishing boats large enough for two or three men to stand up in. Correctly built they can keep ice for a surprisingly long time.

Quote from: MountainDon on December 17, 2008, 10:33:19 AM
Ice in water vs draining.

Years ago I read the same thing, ice left in it's own melt does not last as long as the ice in a cooler than was drained. This was a beer cooler test and they made another point. The beer in the cooler with melt water retained was colder. So sometimes it depends what is best to do.  ;)

I would sometimes decant the melt from the jugs and use it for drinking water.

I have done that test as well.  For beer in a cooler, slush water or water and ice will cool your beverages the fastest because the icy cold water has maximum surface contact with the beer.  However, the ice will not last  as long because the water does warm up (law of conservation of energy), it is extracting the heat (energy) from the items in the cooler which in turn warms the water and melts the ice.  no free lunch.  

Another factor in efficiency versus cost would be to add insulation yourself.  Simply wrapping Polycyanurate foam sheeting, 2" thick would be an "R" factor of 14.8.  The cost of the foam board is significantly less than the cost delta between the super high end refrigerators and freezers.  You may lose some in the aesthetics tho.  

Quote from: muldoon on December 17, 2008, 10:44:13 AM

...wrapping Polycyanurate foam sheeting, 2" thick would be an "R" factor of 14.8.  The cost of the foam board is significantly less than the cost delta between the super high end refrigerators and freezers.  You may lose some in the aesthetics tho.  

The plan for our cabin refrigerator includes this. Two inches on the side panels of the Servel 400 propane refrigerator, plus 4 inches on the top. I want to add to the bottom as well. For that I'll build an insulated platform to raise it as it's a short refrigerator. I also want a couple inches on the door if I can. For the aesthetics I plan on using FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) panels. I'll probably trim the corners with wood moldings. Or if I want to get really crazy I could use the formica granite like countertop material to match the counter top.  ::)

When I was a kid my parents took us camping at the lake - we'd stay for a week to 2 weeks at a time throughout the summer - 100+ temps.  All we had were ice chests - my mom would freeze water in the milk cartons - we'd drink the water when it melted.  She had to have enough food for 4 kids, her & my dad - we were always hungry as we water skied & swam all day - she would fix a full course breakfast & dinner & we'd make sandwiches or snacks for lunch.

Seems like we always had enough ice/water/food/soda to last us - don't know how they did it - I only remember 2 big Coleman ice chests (not near as big as some they make now) - the milk cartons worked out great, though. 

"The plan for our cabin refrigerator includes this. Two inches on the side panels of the Servel 400 propane refrigerator, plus 4 inches on the top. I want to add to the bottom as well. For that I'll build an insulated platform to raise it as it's a short refrigerator. I also want a couple inches on the door if I can. For the aesthetics I plan on using FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) panels. I'll probably trim the corners with wood moldings. Or if I want to get really crazy I could use the formica granite like countertop material to match the counter top. "

Mountain Don, I'm putting in an early request for seversl pics of this process - you'll be done before I am ready to deal with this issue, and I would like to see how this particular application is applied. 

Alright, I'll file that thought away for spring time. I hope the retrieval goes well.  d*

http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=557&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=1254&iSubCat=1285&iProductID=557
Convert it to burn alcohol and distil your own from rotting wood!?!?!? :-\

I'm wondering how this set up would work with a upright freezer ???

I've not got around to the extra insulation on the fridge. It is still on one of the to do lists. 

Ok, bear with me. And no laughing......

Think of a morgue...What do you see? Walls of multiple drawers
stacked 4 and 5 high with seperate refer units.

A simple but expensive way would be to buy 5 seperate, but small
chest type freezers. Mount them in a rack like they use for certain
types of computers on rails. Each unit is self contained and only
looses a little energy if you open it.

The downside to this is the initial cost, but there are some side benefits.

1-Redundancy
2-Individual temperature control for different types of food.
3-Possible different locations for maybe one of the units, like
the one for beer, being close to where it is needed ;D

Ofcourse you could get inventive and make your own with multiple drawers. This is what I was thinking of when I started this. It could be done but the trick is in locating the different heat exchangers
without using flexible tubing, and you would still might need multiple compressors. I haven't crunched the numbers so I don't know what the multiple seperate freezers would cost in a suitable size.

Remember, I said no Laughing...
Bruce

A friend living off grid has been using a chest fridge for years.  She is getting rid of it because of the PITA factor.  I think she expressed it as "I'm tired of search expeditions for the milk".

We have a Sundanzer chest fridge and on the plus side it uses very little electricity.

The downsides:

You can't stack anything on top of it, nor have any real shelving above it because it's difficult to lean over.

It's sometimes difficult to find items in the fridge.

You have to lean over to get anything.

It's large...and we got the smaller 5 cubic foot model.

Quality issues:

It makes a constant drip sound, even when not running. We were told this is normal. Our house is very quiet so this sound is easily noticed, especially at night when we're trying to sleep.

The right hinge is tighter than the left so the lid closes tilted toward the right. It produces a vacuum and Sundanzer told us it was a quality control failure and since the fridge works fine there's nothing they can do about it anyway.

My experience...I would not buy another Sundanzer. The quality was not what I expected from a $1,200 fridge, and customer service is laughable. It's noisy, and the ergonomics and the inability to adequately use the space above the fridge doesn't really make this fridge a good fit for a very small space.

Thanks for that insight pagan. The access issues you mentioned are what turned us off one.

You're welcome, Don.

Thanks Pagan.  I was just considering one.  I am now leaning towards a small upright one.

Squirl,

In the future I'd go with an upright with a small freezer, something like the Sunfrost. We were looking at Sunfrost but we went with the Sundanzer because it is very efficient and cheaper than the Sunfrost, mainly because it has no freezer. It's difficult to say I regret the decision to go with the Sundanzer because we went four years with no refrigeration, so it's nice to have something. It's only after a year of having the Sundanzer that we're really starting to discover some of the flaws and things we do not like.

Sunfrost are no better than the Sundanzer I have had them >:( and you can read here-


http://www.windsun.com/General/Sunfrost.htm

Excellent info Whitlock

When electricity goes to eighty cents per KwH, non-electric coolers might be the best way to go, at least in climates where they'll work (dry climates with cool nights even in the summer).  I've read, haven't tried it yet, that even in the summer in a climate like ours (Eastern Oregon high desert) that if you have an insulated box, put a container of water in it, close it up and keep it in the shade during the day and then open it and expose it to the night sky after sundown, that after a few days you can have ice in the water in the cooler.  (I really need to give this a try!)  So my thought is to somehow build the insulated box into the north wall of the house in such a way that you can slide it out at night and have it opened up to the clear sky.  It would need wire or something on the top to keep critters out.  Then in the morning slide it back inside under an insulated top.  Less complicated but a little more work would be to have the cooler on a covered porch and move it out from under the roof at night, taking the top off the cooler (and covering it with something to keep critters out).

There's also the evaporative camp cooler -- hang a wire cage with a couple of wire shelves in a shady spot.  Put a container of water on top of the unit, and hang burlap or cotton material around the sides of the unit with a wick to bring water to the fabric from the container on top.  You'd have to top off the water once in a while.  This one is a proven design.  My grandfather used it when camping in the summer.  It won't get things down to 40 degrees, but will keep them quite a bit cooler than the outside temperature.  Again, it's only for dry climates, though.  Won't work in high humidity.

Kathleen

Thank you witlock. I didn't know this article existed.  It reinforces a lot of the same conclusions I was finding but was unsure if I was missing something.  

Whitlock,

Nice information, thanks.

Freeholdfarm,

I like the idea of a spring fed cooler.

Quote from: Freeholdfarm on January 19, 2010, 04:10:51 PM
a climate like ours (Eastern Oregon high desert) that if you have an insulated box, put a container of water in it, close it up and keep it in the shade during the day and then open it and expose it to the night sky after sundown, that after a few days you can have ice in the water in the cooler.  

It freezes at night in the summer there? Wow.

Quote from: RainDog on January 19, 2010, 05:48:32 PM

Quote from: Freeholdfarm on January 19, 2010, 04:10:51 PM
a climate like ours (Eastern Oregon high desert) that if you have an insulated box, put a container of water in it, close it up and keep it in the shade during the day and then open it and expose it to the night sky after sundown, that after a few days you can have ice in the water in the cooler.  

It freezes at night in the summer there? Wow.

It does freeze at night in the summer here, sometimes.  But freezing temperatures aren't required to make this work, just significantly cooler temps than during the day.  Something about opening the box up to the night sky removes the heat from it, then you close it up during the day.  You have more heat loss overall than heat gain, so eventually it can get down to freezing inside the box.  Like I said, I haven't tried it yet, but I do plan to.  It makes sense, based on what I've seen here with animal water buckets in different locations.

Kathleen

Has anybody tried using a Navacool with added insulation like suggested Backwoods Solar(and used in the Coyote Cabin)? 

Quote from: Freeholdfarm on January 19, 2010, 06:52:34 PM

It does freeze at night in the summer here, sometimes.  But freezing temperatures aren't required to make this work, just significantly cooler temps than during the day.  Something about opening the box up to the night sky removes the heat from it, then you close it up during the day.  You have more heat loss overall than heat gain, so eventually it can get down to freezing inside the box.  Like I said, I haven't tried it yet, but I do plan to.  It makes sense, based on what I've seen here with animal water buckets in different locations.

  ;D

Quote from: pagancelt on January 19, 2010, 04:25:16 PM


I like the idea of a spring fed cooler.

This might help you :-\

http://www.cd3wd.com/cd3wd_40/JF/JF_OTHER/SMALL/Here's%20a%20low-cost,%20low-tech%20refrigerator%20that%20really%20works....pdf

Or this might be fun to try-

http://www.communicationagents.com/chris/2004/04/14/cool_fridge_without_using_electricity.htm

Or if you could find one of these-

http://aussiethings.biz/coolgardie-safe/

Or build one of these-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling

Quote from: Whitlock on January 19, 2010, 09:30:04 PM
Or this might be fun to try-

http://www.communicationagents.com/chris/2004/04/14/cool_fridge_without_using_electricity.htm

Or if you could find one of these-

http://aussiethings.biz/coolgardie-safe/

Or build one of these-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling

Or dig a root cellar.

Quote from: Whitlock on January 19, 2010, 09:30:04 PM
Or this might be fun to try-

http://www.communicationagents.com/chris/2004/04/14/cool_fridge_without_using_electricity.htm

Or if you could find one of these-

http://aussiethings.biz/coolgardie-safe/

Or build one of these-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat#Cooling

The coolgardie safe is like the camp cooler that my grandfather used to build.  The Qanat is pretty cool, pun intended, LOL!  I read a couple of pages about them; it sounds like the only reason some of them are no longer in use (in some areas) is because drilled wells lowered the water table too much. 

Kathleen

Whitlock,

The spring fed cooler will work best for me as I have a deep spring on my land with water coming out of the ground at 38 degrees F., even on the hottest days of summer. Thanks for the links.

This is fairly new but it comes very close (now testing) to the holy grail!
The grail being a unit that can run only when the sun is out or have holding capacity for 20 hours. It will happen someday!

http://www.stecasolar.com/index.php?main%7Ccat465bf98204a48_0%7C2

Quote from: pagancelt on January 20, 2010, 08:35:03 AM
Whitlock,

The spring fed cooler will work best for me as I have a deep spring on my land with water coming out of the ground at 38 degrees F., even on the hottest days of summer. Thanks for the links.

In the old days, people built a spring house.  They put food in Jars in a shallow trough that the spring ran though. 

I've been running some numbers on our Sundanzer. The literature claims the 5.8 cubic foot refrigerator will use 90 watts or 3.2 amps per day. This is empty with an outside ambient temperature of 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Our Sundanzer is full, but everything has been cooled and it was not opened while tracking run times. The house was kept close to 70 degrees.

First off, since this is a DC unit, I have no method of finding out what it's really using when it runs. Last Sunday, Feb. 5, we were at float and it was very sunny so there were no amps coming in from our panels. The refrigerator came on and the charge controller registered 3 amps, actually it was bouncing between 3 and 4 amps and when the fridge shut off the incoming amps returned to zero. This leads me to believe when running the Sundanzer is consuming 3 to 4 amps per hour. I just used 3 amps for calculating consumption, so it's probably slightly higher in reality than what I've calculated.

OK, the Sundanzer runs from between 39 minutes to 35 minutes 4 times in a twelve hour period. It's strange because it will be off for 1 hour 53 minutes, then run for 37 minutes, then it'll be off for 3 hours 32 minutes, then run for 39 minutes, and then be off for 1 hour 46 minutes. The times for running and off change by a few minutes each cycle, however the short off...long off...short off cycle is consistent. I've been watching the fridge for the last week and this cycling is consistent. The interior temperature of our house varies slightly but I try to keep it between 68 and 72 degrees when I'm tracking the fridge and it's fairly easy to keep the house reasonably consistent while I'm at home. These temperatures aren't too far off from Sundanzer's ambient outside temperature for their literature. In twelve hours it runs 4 times for 39: 37: 36: 37 minutes each time. Since I don't want to stay up 24 hours I've just doubled these numbers for a full day.

Using these numbers I've calculated our Sundanzer uses about .05 amps per minute while running, which means it uses 7.45 amps in a twelve hour period, and 14.9 amps daily. Our system is 24 volts which means our Sundanzer is using 357.6 watts per day and 130.52 kw per year. Not even close to the 3.2 amps/90 watts daily consumption Sundanzer claims.

Our Sundanzer performs far better than most refrigerators currently on the market, although it's difficult to quantify as most refrigerators also have a freezer and we do not, but it's still a far cry from what Sundanzer claims.

These are real world numbers and not what can be produced in a factory laboratory by engineers. Hope this helps some of you.

You piqued my curiosity when I noticed some of your terminology was used incorrectly. What caught my eye was the reference to using 90 watts or 3.2 amps per day. The figures of 90 watts or 3.2 amps as a measure of power use is incomplete without a time reference, as in watt-hours or amp-hours.  Referring to the Sundanzer website one sees that they rate your model at a daily energy consumption of 77Whrs / 6.5AH. That is 77 Watt-hours or 6.5 Amp-Hours at a rated 12 volts. That 90 Watt-hours figure belongs to the larger model refrigerator.

Your statement "Sundanzer uses about .05 amps per minute while running" also threw me. The number of amps used is a constant. So I wondered if your methodology was faulty. I got out my paper, pencil and calculator.

It is important to note that WATTS are a unit of power and WATT-HOURS are a measure of energy consumption.

Okay, there's no argument about the time though. You measured the time the unit was on at 39 + 37 + 36 + 37 = 149 minutes in a 12 hour period. It's safe to say that in a 24 hour period the use would be 149 x 2 = 298 minutes. Divide that by 60 and we have 4.9666 hours. Close enough to call it 5 hours run time in a 24  hour period.

The charge controller was indicating 3 to 4 amps being pushed through to the batteries and whatever devices were running off the batteries. For simplicity let's say that the refrigerator is using 3.0 amps; the same figure you used. We will assume that current draw is even. There may be a surge when the compressor motor starts but we'll ignore that. Something else we'll have to ignore is the variable speed nature of the Danfoss compressor. There is an electronic control that can vary the motor speed; that would cause the actual power used to be higher or lower at certain operational times. That sort of confuses the issue. Nowhere in the Sundanzer info can I find an actual power rating on the compressor, other than there claim of so many watt-hours or amp-hours per day of energy consumption.

Note: some test meters have a 0 - 10 amp range for measuring current use. If you were to hook up such a meter in one of the power feed wires you could measure the actual amps used. The meter would be inserted in series in one of the power leads. All power used would pass through the meter and be measured. That would provide more accurate actual power use figures.

If we assume your Dandanzer is using 3 amps at 24 volts that is equivalent to 3 x 24 = 72 watts. It runs for 5 hours per 24 hour day. That comes out to an energy consumption of 360 Watt-Hours, which is much the same as the figure you came up with, except your terminology was simple "watts", no time factor included.

I am surprised to see such a large discrepancy in the factory numbers and your test. It would not surprise me to see some variance, but to see 4.6 times more energy used than their rating does seem to be a bit on the outlandish side. What was the interior refrigerator temperature? Sundanzers STC has the interior at a reasonable 38 degrees. Was yours significantly colder? I think that is unlikely. So that leaves the amp reading as suspect. 

My thought is that using the current indication on the charge controller is wrong. I believe that is not indicating the actual number of amps being used by the Sundanzer, but is inflated somehow because of the batteries being there in the circuit. One would think that if the charge system is sitting there on float with the refrigerator off, that the charge controller meter would indicate the correct power actually used. Perhaps that is not a correct assumption.

OR the only other conclusion must be that Sundanzer has been totally fraudulent in their representation of the actual power use. It's too bad the Energy Star tests do not include DC model refrigeration. At least there the test conditions used are the same for all the rated units. But they only test 120 VAC.


It would be most interesting to see the actual amperage draw on a test meter hooked into the power line to the refrigerator. If you have the means to make that measurement you could remove any doubts from your test.


Oh, I found a discrepancy in the Sundanzer info. Their residential system sizing PDF download shows an energy consumption of 117 watt-hours per day on that refrigerator, at 70 degrees room temp. Using that you're estimated use is better, but still a long ways off. That is 3.08 times as much energy as they state.


So in closing, you came up with the same answer as I did, but used terminology that was confusing.

Don,

Thanks for responding to my post, I was hoping I would get some input from you or Glenn. After I hit submit I saw I had not put in the "hours" for my amps and watts. I was just too lazy to go back and correct my post, sorry about that. It's supposed to use 77 watt hours or 3.2 amp hours at 24 volts dc daily and because my numbers are so vastly divergent from Sundanzer's literature I'm questioning my methodology. My assumption is that if at float with no amps coming in from the panels the only draw would be the fridge, and when the fridge shut off the charge controller returned to zero amps coming in from the panels so another assumption is nothing else was drawing electricity to affect the amp reading on the controller. There were no other loads at the time I was checking the charge controller and the Sundanzer is the only DC appliance we have. The interior temp is roughly 38 degrees. Slight variances in temperature should not account for such a huge discrepancy, however, so I'm thinking, like you, the amp reading through my charge controller is inflated. I have an amp meter at home so I'll try that to get an accurate reading on what the fridge uses when running. Should I just clip it to the positive and negative power lines for the fridge and wait for it to come on to get my actual 24 vdc consumption?

Hook up with the meter would be something like this. If the meter has provision for measuring amps there will be terminals for that use.  One terminal may be marked COM  and the other 10A or 10ADC. Something like that. If the polarity is connected wrong asome meters won't work, other will auto sense and set themselves.

(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/electrical/ammeter.jpg)

Thanks Don. I'm pretty sure my meter has a setting for amps. Hopefully I can get to this tonight. If not it might be a few days, but I'll post my findings.

Sorry this took so long, but I found out my Craftsman multi-meter had a blown fuse and I had no spares. Couldn't get one locally, even at the Sears store, so had to wait until I was in Williston. Even then I got the last fuse set the Sears there had in stock.

Enough of my problems. Thanks Don for all of your help and insights. Here are the numbers.

When it initially starts it will surge to 2.4 amps, but this is for 1 second or so, really just enough to actually see it on the meter. After the surge it comes down to 1.6 to 1.8 amps. It will hold steady at 1.7 amps for 10 to 15 seconds at a time, so this is the number I'm going with.

1.7 amps while running.
5 hours per day run time.
8.5 amp hours daily consumption.
24 volt system.
204 watt hours daily.

It looks like the numbers I was using from the charge controller must have some system losses in it, or it was trickling some into the battery bank. Either way I'm much closer to what Sundanzer provides for consumption, however I'm still using more energy, just not as much as I initially thought. This difference could easily be attributed to my house being a little bit warmer than Sundanzer's test conditions.

Does this look about right, Don?

You're on the money with that!  :)   That's much better than previously thought.

I thought the batteries were likely introducing an unknown variable. You proved that to be true.

Whit,

thanks for that link about the passive spring /well cooler.  I allready had the same design in my head, but it's great to see it on paper so I can show deb :)  She is sometimes a bit skeptical of some of my idea's.  In the article it mentioned he used a old worn out freezer so that his wife approved. 

:)  I like his ending statement.

                       "why would you
want to keep throwing your hard
earned money away for electricity,
kerosene, or any other fuel when you
can refrigerate for free"

Don,

I'm happier with these numbers, but it's still not what I was expecting, given Sundanzer's literature. When we bought it we had plans for converting it into a chest freezer when we get another fridge. We were planning on a Sunfrost but I've been reading some reviews that were not good, so now we're thinking about getting the most efficient fridge like Whirlpool, Frigidaire, etc. and then get extra panels with the money we save on the fridge. We're building a small addition this summer and planning to move the Sundanzer there, although it'll be conditioned space this will put the fridge about twenty feet away from the wood stove and this should make the fridge run less frequently.

Yes, your figures are still much worse than the claims made by Sundanzer.

204 watt hours a day x 365 = 74460 watt hours a year or 75 KwH a year. Most refrigerators around that size (5.8 cu ft) are rated by Energy Star to consume 325 KwH, more or less. So Sundanzer looks great from that perspective.

A Sunfrost RF-12 is Energy Star rated at 171 KwH a year. That's a fridge that's about twice as big as the Sundanzer, so it's rating is about equivalent to your Sundanzer on a size corrected basis. But I have no idea how the gov figures compare to real life. I'd meter my home fridge to see how it compares but it's just old enough to not be on the Energy Star list. The Sunfrost seems to be about $2300 plus shipping which will be another $500-600. I have also read mixed reviews from owner/users of the Sunfrost. Some of what I read gave me great pause about spending $3K on one.

I do think the idea of using a "regular" refrigerator model, one with the highest available efficiency, and putting money into more panels and batteries has merit.

The Whirlpool Model #: W5TXEWFWQ, 12.6 cu ft fridge/freezer has a rating of 354 KwH a year for a purchase price of $549 at my local Lowe's.

The savings would go a long ways towards panels and batteries.

I had thought of doing this very thing when planning the cabin, but a very good deal on a "blemished" Servel came along and we chose that. It still bothers me a little to be relying on propane but it made economic sense. However if I was doping tjis over again and for a full time residence, not seasonal use I'd give serious thought to what you outlined.

Three years or more ago when the idea for our cabin was taking shape I talked to Tom at TheSolar.Biz for about an hour. Even though his family have had a couple of Sunfrosts for years, he thought that in many cases a few more panels and batteries along with an Energy Star fridge from Sears (his words) was a better deal.


You probably know, but in case you or someone else does not, you can D/L info on all the Energy Star models at...

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=find_a_product.showProductGroup&pgw_code=RF (http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=find_a_product.showProductGroup&pgw_code=RF)

Don,

The Sundanzer performs far better than most fridges on the market, but it doesn't have a freezer either. When we were first designing and building our system I was leaning towards buying an Energy Star fridge and having extra panels, but got talked out of it by the solar dealer. I was also going to go with a totally DC system with a small pure sine wave inverter for electronics. Also got talked out of that but I was proved correct. My thought was we'd be running an inverter to have one or two lights on, and that's precisely what happens. Our inverter chews up 20 watts per hour while running a 13 watt CF. Not too efficient. Live and learn, I guess. Since I have a system in place I can put the $2,000 or so I save NOT buying a Sunfrost into panels and have plenty of power to run an Energy Star rated fridge.