SO let me get this straight...

[OlJarhead]

1life
noun \ˈlīf\
plural lives
Definition of LIFE
1
a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body
b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings
c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

From http://www.merriam-webster.com

So while a 3 year old cannot reproduce it is still a life form -- we wouldn't argue that right?

A fetus can't reproduce either but it does have a capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli -- we know this right?

It is not dead, therefore it is alive.

Heck, it's also animate (ever heard of an unborn child kicking?)

So while abortionists like to claim the baby is not alive what they really mean is "not a viable human" yet....just like killing someone who's in a vegetative state right?  They aren't viable so pull the plug?

The reason this argument isn't made, IMHO is because then you have to admit it is not the woman's body.....oopsie

[flyingvan]

That single celled zygote that IS a new human life-- If one of our Martian probes found the same thing on the surface of Mars, tell me who wouldn't be calling it 'Life'? 

Fry up a spotted owl egg omelette, go to jail.  Suck a member of your own species into a sink, you're a hero?

[flyingvan]

Now if I can temper this a bit for the sake of the other side----If, as a man, you ever put a woman in the position of possibly getting pregnant with a child you had no intention of supporting, well, you don't have much room to talk

[UK4X4]

"As for the man and his sperm. He lost control of the situation when he injected the sperm into the woman"

That had me giggling into my cuba libre !

"If, as a man, you ever put a woman in the position of possibly getting pregnant with a child you had no intention of supporting, well, you don't have much room to talk"

The only way a man can fully comply to that is abstinance

However its simply not natural- and has proven to be a very dificult subject even for RC Priests and Budist monks

yep you also read about the 40 year old virgins in the news- but is that through design or situation !

[Carla_M]

That had me giggling into my cuba libre !

[flyingvan]

Uh, no, there's another option past complete abstinence, which may very well be the most erotic and sexually satisfying route to take---impossible to compare though.  Plus, it happens far more frequently than the left cares to acknowledge---
A man has the option to
--Learn to control his urges instead of being a slave to them
--Fall in love and marry, making a very public declaration this is the person you intend to support and care for
--Go.

  At least, that's been my approach.  23 years now and it just gets better.

  Imagine if, unlike what UK4X4 is implying, it wasn't a given that we are powerless against our sexual urges and instead we encourage and promote the idea to save it for someone.  I married way out of my league with this attitude.  If you are truly open minded, just briefly entertain this idea--- reserve intercourse for the one person you intend to spend the rest of your life with. 
  First off, sex is a powerful motivator.   If girls would only put out for someone with a good enough income to support the results of an encounter, the workforce participation rate wouldn't be abysmal.
   Second, there would be no venereal disease.  None.
   Third, every child would be 'wanted' and the result of two people making a very careful decision.

   Freedom isn't just doing what you feel---it's enjoying the benefits, or suffering the consequences, of your actions.  Just as your right to swing your fist stops at my face, the right to do whatever you feel stops where it impacts others.  STD's, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, sleeping with someone's future spouse---all impacts others.
   Just don't mistake the strength required for self control for a lack of drive or libido.  Most people have the same urges---not everyone submits to them.

[UK4X4]

"--Learn to control his urges instead of being a slave to them"   oops failed on that one  8-)

"--Fall in love and marry, making a very public declaration this is the person you intend to support and care for"

Second time arround on that one !- This time hopefully it will last !- 10 years and counting

The only person I know that waited ....was my mum.........a past generation

Out of all my old friends my age I don't know anyone who managed it, or even attempted it.

veneral diseases have been arround since before christianity- and I don't see them disappearing anytime soon- chastity or not

Every child wanted-

even in a loving relationship in this day and age - accidents still do happen- and some people for financial or lifestyle reasons still choose to abort rather than have another child.

Its a complicated subject, and everyone has their personal view.

Mean while I have to stay out of here and finish designing my bathroom so the plumber can start !

[firefox]

1-Store your sperm in a sperm bank for latter retrieval.
2-Get a Vasectomy.

Problem solved

[flyingvan]

The ideal never has, and probably never will, be attained.  The reaction to this by some is, then, to discard and ignore the ideal as impossible.

It's impossible for the weak, and an opportunity to others to display strength.

If venereal diseases would persist, 'chastity or not', one of us has a deep misunderstanding of biology.

  I believe there is a huge value to society as a whole when we seek to attain, and encourage others to attain, these ideals.  Sure, we're all human---you point out priests and monks that fail---I hope, then , you have a deep respect for the majority of them that master their urges and do not fail.   A child born out of wedlock has a much better chance at success when the parent or parents come from solid families with a mom and dad or grandparents to help provide practical and emotional needs.  That child will do far better than one raised primarily by the government schools.

[Carla_M]

even in a loving relationship in this day and age - accidents still do happen- and some people for financial or lifestyle reasons still choose to abort rather than have another child.

this is one of the circumstances that the morning after pill is the perfect solution. The morning after pill is after all, the thing that started this conversation. Has anyone ever had a condom fail during use? It does happen. I don't know how frequent, but I have seen it with my own eyes. Why should we not be able to use it if our first line of defense fails?

[OlJarhead]

As for the abortion pill, or after sex pill etc my opinion, for what little it is worth, is that we don't know enough about the side affects of the pill .......... I don't know that the pill is actually an 'abortion pill' but rather a 'don't get pregnant pill' which, if it were just after sex birth control then perhaps it isn't any worse then the normal pill.....

Just restating my position without the 'anti-abortion' stuff I posted -- it is, after all, a thread about an after sex pill right?

So, I think consenting adults have a right to use birth control and I don't think government should have anything to do with it.

I am, however, opposed to allowing children to make those choices for themselves.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd agree that a 17 year old is a child either -- old enough to fight and die for your country then old enough to be called an adult.

[Squirl]

Although most people agree teens shouldn't be having sex.  As a matter of public policy, most laws say that by 16, they can decide that for themselves.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/SR/StateLaws/summary.shtml

Since 1977 the Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional to deny teenagers access to birth control. Carey v. Population Services International, 431 U.S. 678 (1977).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/431_U.S._678

That is why the court stepped in on this case.  It is a standard birth control pill.  By the FDA originally denying access to teenagers infringed on the constitutional rights outlined in Carey.

One justice even wrote in a concurring opinion in Carey that denying access to birth control infringes upon the constitutional rights of legally married 14-16 year olds.  Although not as common in today's modern society, the laws carry over that teens are young adults and have some of the same individual rights as those over 18.


I'm not touching the actual abortion stuff.

[Abbey]

That's the point, at what age does a "child" become an "adult" and is allowed to make his or her own decisions free of parental or governmental control? To me I see this more as a debate on who is in control of the decisions regarding how teens are living their lives. Is it the teens themselves, the parents, or the government?

[UK4X4]

"one of us has a deep misunderstanding of biology"

Come now sir - surely not me

3 main types bacterial-viral and parasitic

Cold sores---genital herpes
can be passed through foreplay - sex not required
So can yeast infections etc
So can HIV-any body fluids
parasites are usually spread during sexual contact, but can also be spread through contact with an infected person's clothing, bed linens, or towels.

certain ST's can be non evident in women and be passed to children during birth



If we all decided tommorow to be monks and priests- would they die off -NAH

if we locked us all up in bio suits and never had human -human contact of any form -

I agree they would eventually go away- about the same time as our species !

meanwhile back to the thread !

[flyingvan]

Can you now list for me some of the ways humanity benefits from promiscuity?

[Carla_M]

Can you now list for me some of the ways humanity benefits from promiscuity?

I can not.

People do many things that do not benefit humanity and definitely do not benefit the themselves, though. There is a short term feel good received. That runs the gamut from drinking too much sugary soda and eating too much to trying to impose their own religions on others, to repeatedly building cabins using techniques proven to be faulty. After a while the head begins to hurt too much from all the head bashing and we try to find ways to mitigate the problem.

In theory it would be wonderful to be raised in a happy, 1950's TV-Land American family, meet Mr or Mrs Right, get married, have 2 1/3 kids, retire and enjoy the grandkids with your lifetime spouse, live to a ripe old age and then be buried in the family plot side by side. Doesn't happen most of the time. So we try our best in our own ways.

I replaced my idealism with pragmatism.

[stricsm]

Abortion by whatever means shouldn't be for convenience and should only be done when medically/ethically warranted.  Whether it is warranted or not is between the woman (and if she and he are mature thinking, her sperm donor), their doctor and their God if they so believe.  Let's face it, the majority of abortions in this country are for convenience (i.e., birth control post fertilization).  I just don't agree with that in general as I don't agree with the death penalty in general.

OBTW, I tend to lean libertarian in most cases.

I really don't have a problem if the government wants to approve OTC pills that cause miscarriage.  If my daughter ever gets in that situation and chooses that, then she lives with that decision.  My wife is a mental health therapist and has counseled numerous childless women who are now tormented by choosing to abort at an early age.  Life teaches lessons if we let it and choices have consequences.  You can either get better or get bitter.

[UK4X4]

"Can you now list for me some of the ways humanity benefits from promiscuity?"

I have a whole list- but we're a family friendly site 

here's a safe one - it widens the gene pool !

raping and pillaging used to be the national pastime of most sea faring nations, some impregnated in the town - some were brought back to their home town to meet mum.

even many tribes indigenous indians both in the americas and africa would have yearly raids to other villages where "wifes" were taken.

These days its called vacation 

marriage did'nt exist untill after the church did - we weren't designed to be monogamous

That came with the church trying to set guideline and rules so that humans could live in peace with each other in a village enviroment.

prior to that was tribal laws and those other belief systems

it did'nt come from our natural instincts or behavoirs.

[Carla_M]

These days its called vacation 

  funny man!


I'm not sure about marriage coming after the formal church though. I thought men took wives waaaay back as a form of having exclusive access to a particular woman's favors. To keep her out of circulation. The woman had nothing to say about the matter. The church did get its hooks in there at some point though. They did used to be the official keeper of the records of marriage. Started in the 8th century or so I think.

Marriage: would be an interesting topic unto itself.

There was a time if a woman did not bear children the dowery was returned upon her death.

[Abbey]

UK,

The women of that time might not view it in the same manner as you, nor would they consider it a "vacation" either. I also doubt the women were brought home to "meet mum" as you put it so flippantly. After watching their men and sons get brutally murdered they were kidnapped, taken from their families and villages to a foreign land with a foreign language where they were kept as servants and sex slaves for the men. As such if they stepped out of line they were simply disposed of with little thought, concern, or compassion. These women were neither companions nor "gene pool" wideners, they were possessions. A few of these women might have found some semblance of a family life with their new "husbands" who kidnapped and raped them, but I believe that would be extremely rare.

Because they were taken from their tribes, clans, and families which left them with NO support network they would have little choice but to serve as the men desired. Of course, the men would naturally ASSUME this meant these women were fine with what they had done to them, which is nothing close to the truth. Your uneducated, rude, and misogynistic comments perpetuate the ridiculousness of male dominance, or dominance in any form for that matter.

[UK4X4]

"Your uneducated, rude, and misogynistic comments perpetuate the ridiculousness of male dominance, or dominance in any form for that matter"

Obviously the English sence of humor was left way behind when the pilgrims crossed the atlantic

I did not mean to offend, be rude or put down women in any way, I was trying to take a light hearted look at a dificult subject, injecting what I thought was some comedy factor.

For your notes I'm definitly more of a philogynist

[Abbey]

I have a sense of humor, just not about kidnapping, rape, and sexual slavery.

Philogynist, I like that, and I would like to assure you I am no misandrist.

[NM_Shooter]

You're spoiling this discussion with truth and facts. . .    Where's the fun in that!   

No... unfortunately there are not many facts associated with that post.

Claiming that Plan B is not an abortion in a pill is simply not true.  That very link to WebMD indicates that it is effective up to 72 hours after unprotected sex.  It is possible and not uncommon for an egg to be fertilized within an hour of intercourse.  Plan B is an early abortion pill and loses affectivity the further out the window that you go. 

Barrier of conception is contraception.  Termination of a fertilized, viable egg is abortion.

Saying that it is not a life, 'cause it isn't in the womb, or isn't in the third trimester, or isn't born, or isn't being nurtured for after being born onto a table in an abortuary is ridiculous. 

Whether your are snipping baby spines on a table, or flushing out a barely fertilized egg, you are murdering.  Trying to justify it based on appearance of the child or some arcane timeline set by a judicial system only changes the amount of cleanup required after the crime.     

You can argue semantics all you want on this.  If you have a required minimum of chromosomes, and you are viable for development, you are a human.  You are a life. 

Liberals don't want to hear this.  Life to them is hedonistic and about personal pleasure, little to no personal responsibility..... all about choices that result in the least amount of hassle later.  Having a baby?  No thanks... too imposing.  Heck, I'll just kill it off since it is legal to do so in the child's most frail state and not even look back.  (I'm amazed at how many of these same people won't eat meat due to moral objections)

Even in the case of rape, abortion is murder.  The child in the womb is absolutely and purely innocent.  Killing off a child does not fix the crime of rape. 

I believe that rape should be prosecuted and punished much more sternly than we do.  I believe that false accusations of rape should also be prosecuted and punished more sternly than we do. 

[Carla_M]

Of course an abortion does not 'fix' the crime of rape. But why should a woman who has been raped not be able to use the morning after pill? Or have an abortion performed after she knows she is pregnant and more than likely from the rapist? Seems more than a little unfair to the woman.

Looking at the other end of life, someone mentioned pulling the plug on someone in a vegetative state. In many places if a medical expert or panel of experts can testify that there is no brain activity then life support may be removed. The idea being that it takes brain activity to truly make a human being, to make a human life worthwhile. With a dead brain there is no person or personality as far as I am concerned. Many others agree.

I use the logic of brain activity on the beginning end of life as well. Brain activity is first seen at somewhere around 27 – 28 weeks. No brain activity = no person, IMO. A life form yes, but then so is an amoeba.


Just curious.What is your stance on the death penalty? Is the death penalty ever appropriate punishment for premeditated murder?

[OlJarhead]

At 8th Week
Just before or during the 8th week fetus develops its first sensitivity to touch, which is considered the first activity of the fetus' brain.
Read more at Buzzle: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/fetal-brain-activity.html

Hmmm.....I've always heard that brain activity is much earlier then most think...