After talking with the county last fall they told me i had to manage my grey water for a rec. cabin and i was told that i could put a 5 gallon bucket under the sink and throw the water out in a different spot every time i would be fine. now this spring they told me that i needed at least 5 acres to this. So basicly my prefabed i cabin i have built in my garage this winter was shot down yesterday by the health department. Any body have any ideas. the structure is 12x16 with 10 foot walls and 12/12 pitch
TROYL something doesn't sound right. I am not in Washinton State but that sounds like they are comparing a septic system with a grey water line. ??? Hopefully someone who lives there and is a member will pick up on your thread and offer some advice. Even here you have to have at least 2 acs for a septic and under that you have to have an additional 10,000 sq ft for an aux septic field set aside without any improvements on that portion at any time.
I would suggest since you are getting conflicting information that you contact the State Health Department and make inquiries. If it is in direct conflict with the local then find out why. If they have a web page send them in inquiry and see what comes back.
With 5 acres you could guarentee not to be pouring the 5 gallon of water on the same place for 20 years ;D d*
It's possible the rules changed. IIRC Creative1 was running into some time deadline thing with the building permits she was pulling last year in WA state. I don't know if that was a county or a srtate thing.
It could also be somebody muckedup. All you can do now is check with the state environmental dept and work from there. I might have the name wrong, that's what it is in NM; they're the ones who enforce the regulations regarding waste water of any type.
Septic rules are changing all the time and you can guess which way they are going >:(. Each county has their own interpretations but go by State rules. (At least that's what I was told last time I tried to get an alternative septic system approved - the Glendon system was not on the state list of approved alternatives.)
It doesn't make much difference what size property you have (unless it is so tiny or has such poor soils that you couldn't get a septic permit - in which case you probably shouldn't be throwing good money after bad). A simple gray water filtration system takes very little area and is probably better than just splashing it around (but that has very little health danger!)
See this article: http://organicjohn.blogspot.com/2007/10/my-first-simple-grey-water-system.html
and... http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Home_Generation:Gray_Water_Recycling
Can you just take the sink out of the plans and go for a storage shed permit?
You can also try calling Olympia to see what gray water filtration systems are approved.
To avoid the septic you could go with a compost toilet. Look up the Humanure Handbook. It's a very simple system.
We have a similar rule in my state. The way around it is to have a septic engineer certify your grey water system. I believe under the link sections they have many state guidelines and plans for building a grey water system. This maybe a way to pass.
The septic is taken care of with a contractors toilet. the portable 4x4 shelter that you see on building sights or at the fair grounds. Not the prettest thing in the world to look at, but cost effective for right now. my plan was to wrap it in cedar and make it look like an out house. there is local buy that comes and and sucks it out for 30 bucks and the refills it with blue water. it was the grey water he was concerned with. Its a 3/4 acre wooded lot. he was concerned with the dish and hand washing water. most public tent camping sights would see more waste water on the ground than i could produce. Its with in a couple of hundred feet of the river so a septic has to be a full mount system installed by a quilified contractor. for around 20,000$. it seems like the the county isn't really willing to give the information you need untill you ask them the right question. I'm gonna ask him about one of those portable conatianers that you off load your rv waste into might work for a grey water conatinment and i can take it off sight to dispose of it. ;)
John I forgot to add, i didn't have a sink in my drawings but i called it a cabin. I applied for a shed permit today. 4 windows, 10 foot walls and centered in the middle of my lot. Gonna be interesting to see what they say.
Quote from: pagancelt on March 19, 2009, 01:17:04 PM
To avoid the septic you could go with a compost toilet. Look up the Humanure Handbook. It's a very simple system.
Just don't try it in upstate NY. This was our plan from the beginning, but it crashed and burned here. Luckily for us, our neighbors fought the good fight while building their place, so we knew better than to try. Our neighbors had two good jobs and so could afford an expensive environmental activist lawyer - who couldn't manage to get a greywater system approved, despite over a year of legal battles. Compost toilet or no, we're required to install a full-sized $eptic $ystem, which really broke the bank for us.
We seriously considered getting a permit for a shed and then 'accidentally' moving in, but eventually ended up selling our paid-for car to pay for the #$#@! septic system. Grrr...
Hope Washington is more enlightened.
Wow. Fortunately I'm in a town with no building codes and as long as nobody complains about you, i.e. neighbors, then nobody will come snooping around to see what you're doing. The state (Vermont) says an outhouse is only for a part time dwelling of six months per year or less. The first year we just used the forest, so to speak, ok in summer but not so nice in January. We got a copy of The Humanure Handbook and that's what we've been using for the last three years.
I called the state septic engineer for my district, actually spoke with two different engineers and they both said the same thing, if I'm willing to use a compost toilet I was not considered a high risk because someone willing to put in the effort to safely control his or her body waste was viewed as a person who would be as cautious with grey water as well. Also in Vermont if you do not have running water, which I don't, then state septic rules do not apply. Baffling that you can drain your grey water into a bucket and then dump it on a tree but you cannot run a line out of your house and have it drain onto the same tree.
I found a link to a free download for the humanure handbook:
http://jenkinspublishing.com/humanure_contents.html
Big file, but its the full version of the newest edition.
http://jenkinspublishing.com/downloads/PDF_all%20chapters/Humanure_Handbook_all.pdf
The Humanure method and any other method of dealing with "black" water is not TROYL's problem, if I read his post correctly. It's graywater. Most jurisdictions count kitchen sink as black even if they approve your composting toilet or whatever. So if you have a kitchen you are in a bind.
Good point Don. I guess TROYL could go without a kitchen sink and then wash the dishes outside with a bucket of water. We did that for a summer, and then just moved the bucket into the cabin when it got too cold outside. No sink, no drain, no problem? What do you think?
Depends on whether or not the local officials will approve the "shed". Here, if the building meets the size requirements for a shed, you're home free, as long as you don't live in it. If you live in it it needs a kitchen (area) and sanitary facilities (which in some areas can be an outhouse). Gray water systems are permitted, if you follow guidelines. The guidelines do a Catch-22 on you though when you get to the kitchen sink. d*
Or if you are remote enough you can do an end run. ;D
Every time I read about people dealing with codes and the ensuing enforcement officers I am always thankful that I don't have to deal with any of that where I live. I don't know if I would try the end run, even if I thought it was remote enough, because they could fine the crap out of you and then make you tear down everything. I read on one of the other threads about some people in Washington or Oregon who had to tear down a shed they built becauae they didn't get a permit.
I do know that a non permitted shed is 120 square feet or less , but a ((permitted)) shed could be any size couldn't it??? there must be some guide lines for sheds.
Quote from: pagancelt on March 20, 2009, 10:45:49 AM
I don't know if I would try the end run, even if I thought it was remote enough, because they could fine the crap out of you and then make you tear down everything. I read on one of the other threads about some people in Washington or Oregon who had to tear down a shed they built becauae they didn't get a permit.
Yep...we came to our senses eventually. Even in the middle of nowhere, it's pretty difficult to hide a
house, however small.
Woodsprite,
Have you thought about underground?
Quote from: pagancelt on March 20, 2009, 12:54:23 PM
Woodsprite,
Have you thought about underground?
Well,
I have. I've seen pics of some incredible little grass-topped hobbit dwelling that really got me going. Hubby spent 30 years repairing other people's water damage in the pacific NW, though, and he is not having it. He puts mold and mildew in the same category as bubonic plague. I've managed to talk him into digging us a cold cellar, but you can be sure the house is going to be on stilts!
Of course he'll never admit the water damage was due to poor drainage, i.e. poor initial design. Where I want to build is pretty wet, but I have some high spots on my land so I figure I can work in some good drainage areas and then build something using Mike Oehler's design with the Passive Annual Heat Storage thermal umbrella.
Quote from: pagancelt on March 31, 2009, 09:50:39 AM
Of course he'll never admit the water damage was due to poor drainage, i.e. poor initial design. Where I want to build is pretty wet, but I have some high spots on my land so I figure I can work in some good drainage areas and then build something using Mike Oehler's design with the Passive Annual Heat Storage thermal umbrella.
Sure he will, but like ScottA (don't miss his Deer Run- 16x26 in Oklahoma thread!), he's not taking any chances. Building Underground = Asking For Trouble. End of Conversation.
He's really quite reasonable in all other respects!
Sorry to hijack your thread, TROYL...
You're half way there, then, perhaps if you bring up that he can work out the drainage issues he just might give it a little more consideration.
Rather than continuing to hijack TROYL's thread, do you think we should start a thread and see what other people think on this issue?
Just a point of clarification/word of warning...based on personal experience and misunderstanding: in my county on the Oregon coast, a structure of less than 200df (not for habitation) is does not require a permit as an AUXILIARY structure. This means there has to be a primary structure permitted or in place. Again, your mileage may vary....
mt
At least in King County, the maximum size for non-permitted buildings is 200 sq ft, including roof overhangs. If you're outside of King County, consider yourself fortunate (see below.)
If you happen to be in King County and not in an incorporated area, you also have to consider the Critical Areas Ordinance (CAO), which among other things requires a site review of any portion of your property you intend to use in pretty much any manner other than walking trails. I have an incredibly challenging lot with multiple critical areas categories like steep slope, aquifer recharge, surface water, landslide/erosion hazard, etc. I spent about $800 to have the county review the building area and one potential septic area, and now I'm thinking about another area to put the drain field, which will cost another $800+ for an additional review. Even with an unpermitted building it has to be inside an area that has been reviewed/approved, and you will have to abide by setbacks and other rules, just like a permitted structure.
Sorry you all have to jump through so many hoops to build what should be a small, simple structure. Hearing these stories makes me so glad my town has no codes.
I say this with an element of trepidation: I am glad we have codes, but I do think they get excessive. My attitude is that codes give us a set of rules to play by. And if we do not like it, we should think about how to get the rules changed. Generally, the rules arise because of abuses and then there is a reaction to them--perhaps an over-reaction.
Things are only worth what a buyer and seller agree to. With real estate (because it is not portable), the action of a neighbor can have negative repercussions on the value of someone else's land. One person's shed is another person's eyesore. And things get testy when that "eyesore" potentially hurts a neighbor. I have been on the offending side of this (my eyesore "hurt" my neighbor's value in his estimation) and I am in the process of fixing it.
I have a funny feeling that when my house is completed I will have patience about a neighbor's eyesore up to a point.....and that point is what a reasonable person would expect.
Off my soapbox....
m
Mike,
Well then you're talking about common courtesy by taking into account how your neighbors will feel about your dwelling and outbuildings. Fortunately for me I am not within sight of my two neighbors, and when I build the house I actually want I'll be even deeper on my land, so what I build will have zero visual impact on anybody. Personally I view codes as a method of protecting the building trades and creating another layer of petty bureaucracy so some clown can feel powerful when he "orders" someone to dismantle a shed because the permit was improperly filed, or any other such reason, rather than working with the person and getting the permit done after the fact. Funny how they'll do this for so called professional builders but not individuals.
There may be as many opinions on codes as there are codes. However, there need to be rules regarding everything otherwise there would be anarchy and nothing much would ever get done. At the same time, I believe some code writing is excessive.
Not to mention all of the fees for permits, inspections, etc. that you must pay as you build.
Well guys to keep you updated they oked my building plans for my shed. but they will not issue the permit untill it is signed off by the planning and developement department. So another 200$ and 2 more weeks and i should have an answer. I'm Keeping my fingers crossed.