Adjusting for changes in height?

[MikeT]

Now that I have figured out how to post pictures, perhaps my questions will be more clear--then again, I might just post more questions.  Anyway:

In the excacation process for my Victoria's Cottage, we had to go deeper than originally planned to reach bearing soil.  This has resulted in a scenario where instead of a crawl space under the room addition on the  VC, I can now have a full height store room.  So the walls in this room can be as high as 9 feet.  But then the height of the basement bedroom above it can also be 9 feet.  Then there is the main floor room---

I am thinking of whether it makes sense for me to have these side rooms be at the same level as the floor area they were designed to be next to, or should I drop them down and make a step or two down to them?

I included this picture.  The walls have been poured, but with this shot you can see the rooms and the height adjustments I an thinking about.

Thanks,
mt

[glenn-k]

I guess you would have to consider convenience, and the use benefit of the extra room -- storage - duct work - plumbing  - heating - A/C -

as opposed to having to step down into the room.  

Are landings required also if a step-down?  I don't get into too much of this stuff.

[peg_688]

Well as in all things there are trade offs.  

The positives of stepping the rooms down is it makes a space in ways more "interesting". Generally this is done in larger homes / buildings on large stretched out sites.


The negitives are stairs , older folks , folks with mobility issues would not see that as a good thing.

Stairs take space , a V/C is not a large space so wall space/ passage ways to stairs will eat up room.


On the exterior you'll have siding level changes , on that steep site you'll have those either way. At those step ups you'll have to control the earth / bank from sluffing up against your stiding / wood framing even if your siding is cement brd. you'll want to keep dirt / earth from getting onto it to prevent rot.

This place had a basement level/ gnd floor / a kitchen , master bed , hall bath level, a livingroom level 48" above that, and a loft level back over the master bedroom .kitch area. It was  a PITA to frame .


 


 

 

In the last photo you can see the difference in floor heights by the door locations .

So there's a bit to think about when different floor levels are introduced.

   

[MikeT]

Thanks Glenn and PEG, that helps.  One of the problems of weekend only work is that you have Monday to Friday to think and sometimes you think too much--at least I do.

Looking at the picture I provided, I am planning on the basement bathroom in the same place that John showed in his plans--that is in the top left corner in the picture.  I am thinking of holding back on filling  and pouring that area of my slab until I know exactly where the plumbing needs to go.  In addition, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to think about not placing concrete over the bathroom area but making a step up to it and having the appropriate vapor barriers, etc in the the subfloor area and simply step up into a bathroom that has a wood floor.  My thinking is that this would make access to the pipes easier and would give me more slope.  Given I have the ceiling space to work with...

Is this just nutty?  Every time I think I find a "better" way of doing something, I am reminded that if it were such a great idea then others would be doing it too.

Thanks,
mt

[youngins]

Do you have a picture from a little farther back which shows the entire foundation footprint?

[glenn-k]

I think it is a possibility but in reality the water lines could be brought in through the walls and only the waste lines go out under the slab so all you have to do is get it right once and you won't have to mess with it again.  Cleanouts can go outside or it can be done from the inside but if you raise it, it will be an inconvenience every time you go into or out of the bathroom.  Our bathroom off of the bedroom is set down 2 feet and you do have to be careful when going in or out of it in the dark.  

[MikeT]

I was only thinking of the waste pipe(s) going through the concrete floor.   Glenn, your comment about it being a hassle to step up and down is reason enough for me to ditch that idea and just stay with things being on the same level and then having a full flight of stairs  (in my case a spiral stairs)  to the next level.   I will not go with a step up or step down to different rooms.

Youngins, here is a pic from a the top of the property looking diagonally down to where the other pic was taken from.  It was getting pretty dusky, so I apologize for the gloomy appearance.  

[youngins]

Thanks! Do you mind sharing how much $ this pour set you back?

[peg_688]

HOLY SMOKES!!!  I'm glad I'm not framing that place !!!  

 You must be 1/2 Mtn. goat Or the crew is .

Why so many , what looks like , foundation bolts in that highest wall?? Engineering ??  Hold downs?? Stubbed up steel??

 G/L PEG

 

[MikeT]

I will respond in order of the comments:

Youngins:  The footing pour cost me about $2000 (concrete + pumper + helpers).  Then the stem wall pour was another $2500 (same elements).  I didn't have to rent forms because the guy who agreed to oversee my work and help as needed (a mentor, of sorts) let me use his forms for the price of a bottle of good whiskey (he defines as whatever is in his hand!), but I did have to rent the brackets that hold the forms and attach to the snap ties.  This does not include the either.

PEG: the many nubs you see at the top of the wall are a combination of the anchor bolts (every two feet) plus a three SSTB16s (called for by my buddy who is a structural engineer) plus excess of 10 ' #6 bar that was called for in the engineered retaining wall (they cut the bars a bit long, I guess).  These nubs will get cut off leaving just the hold downs and the anchor bolts.

As to the steepness of the slope--yes it is a 30% slope. But the saving grace is a terrific view and from a structural standpoint, the footings sit on bedrock-- basalt that is very stable.  Even though I am in a high wind zone, I am on the middle of the hill and am protected from most of the wind by the hill above and to the side of me.

I am preparing a more detailed accounting of my project with pictures.  I will post this in the appropriate section of this very helpful forum.

[glenn-k]

Nice picture Mike - quite an accomplishment there already.

Keep in mind that different levels in a house do make things interesting and we chose to put our bathroom lower due to it's location, how it fit in with the rest of the house and because I am rather weird.  

I was just bringing up issues to be considered, but looking at all the options as you are doing is good.  It helps with problem solving when you get to a hard one.  After you consider the issues and decide on the way you want to do it, then it usually tends to work well.

[jraabe]

That is quite the foundation Mike!

It looks solid but complex. Do a good solid job on the wood pony walls and tie them into the concrete and you should be fine.

[MikeT]

John (and others) thanks for the kind words on the foundation.  Perhaps ignorance is bliss, but it didn't seem like that much of a challenge.  Hopefully things will go faster now, though.

John you mentioned tying the pony walls into the concrete.  I assume you mean beyond the anchor bolts and the SSTB16s that are already there and instead mean tying things into the vertical sides as well.  If that is indeed correct, do you recommend that I use a strap and gun it in or should I epoxy some anchor bolts into the sides?

Thanks,
mt

[jraabe]

No, the anchor bolts, straps and holddowns do that quite well. However, as the pony wall gets higher there are greater racking forces at work. I wouldn't be the one to know exactly what extra hardware might be needed (if any).

It looks to me like you are doing good work here and a rather easy upgrade to the performance of pony walls is to sheath them on the inside with plywood. That gives you a tight structural sandwich!  8-) (And a wall that's greater than the sum of its parts.)

[MikeT]

I was thinking of that (putting up sheathing on the inside) as well.  While I am going with CDX on the outside, this might be a perfect place for OSB (on the inside, that is).  

[jraabe]

Yep, I agree.

[peg_688]

Humm I'll add to this , if the engineer didn't add it , it is highly unlikely that it is  necessary in his opinion. And you did ask for and  possibly paid for that opinion.

Things I'd think about :

#1:  If your not insulating those crawler stud bays and you do sheet both sides you may set up a cavity that produces moisture from condensation . Unless of course you vent each stud bay in some way.


#2: If you do insulate you'll still need to vent the crawl space properly .


#3:  I'd tie in the studs that are right up against the concrete, use PT studs at those locations, and use Titan concrete anchors 1/2 "x 4" to bolt those studs to the concrete and lap/ install  your sheathing in a way that all your joints are lapping,  where ever possible , like a  gusset  tying the hinge points / step points / wall framing breaks  together with the CDX.

So if we get a earthquake and the wall rattles the sheathing would also have to snap in 1/2 for the wall / point to hinge.  

 Soldiering your sheets ( stand up right) can some times help / make this easier .( Read less additional horz. blocking.)

It would be in your best interest to block all your major sheathing joints .

G/L PEG

[MikeT]

Thanks, again, for the helpful input.

For what it is worth, I do not have any crawl spaces with this deeper excavation and formwork. What I have is an unplanned extra 12 x 14 foot "room" underneath the basement area.  I will frame this in consultation with my structural engineer and take your comments to him for reaction.   I am planning on insulating this room and formed in a doorway for access.  I will use PT wood for anything in contact with concrete, either horizontally or vertically.  More soon,

mt

[peg_688]

Mike I'd like to hear what he has to say. It will be interesting to see what he says.

Thanks PEG

[MikeT]

Okay, so I talked with my structural engineer friend who did the specs for the walls, etc.  He said that in his opinion the inside sheathing and the vertical anchor bolts are not needed.  I posed the questions, and he mulled it over.   He just didn't think that given the sizes we are talking about on the pony walls and the distances considered that I would really gain that much.  

So that is his opinion.  What is interesting is that I find him to be pretty conservative in his assessment of what is needed compared to some of the guys around here who do building.  They seem to think that lots of what he called for was excessive.

So what's a weekend warrior to do?  Who do you believe?  I likely will not worry about the vertical anchor bolts and will mull over the inside sheathing issue some more.  Part of me likes the extra stability for the price of OSB..

mt