CountryPlans Forum

hi fellow woodsmen and women, just thought i'd seek your opinions as this is something i need, and soon!  i plan on breaking ground next spring.  mile long unmaintained dirt roads are the rule for many of us.  your experience in this area is highly valuable.  thanks, altaoaks

IMO, having owned IH, Toyota, Suzuki, Ford, and Jeep 4x4;s,  it is not the nameplate that counts, so I voted "other".  Most, if not all of those makes I've owned have made turkeys, as well as preferred choices.

It's more what the tires are, what the ground clearance is, does the owner/driver have chains, a winch, locking diffs, and a good shovel and most importantly, does the driver have any common sense.

Within that broad group I base my selections on...
...solid axles vs independent suspension (solid at both ends is better off road much of the time, IMO),
...manual transmission vs automatic (automatic is better in most off road situations), IMO
...sufficient ground clearance, or can I easily install a lift
...how tall a tire can I use without lifting, changing diff gears
...old fashioned, but reliable, manual locking front hubs vs the automatic engaging hubs. Full time okay, but manual preferred, IMO.
...there may be other stuff like I prefer rubber floor mats to carpet but that's more or less it.

I completely agree with Don, and voted the same. 

Also, I wouldn't bother getting just a "4x4."  Too limited.
I'd never build a house without a pickup and if you need 4WD then a 4WD pickup would be the way to go. 

Is there any value to this poll?  You have 2 Dodge options and a toyota, followed by other covering the other 47 options.   ???

I voted "Toyota". I do own one and I like it....but the reason I voted Toyota was that they have a reputation for running and running....etc. Mine is a 2009 model with 4 doors and 4wd and I get 21 mpg on my mixed hwy/city driving. The bed is a joke on my truck though....it's hard to have 4 doors AND a big bed. Supposedly....and I've never tried this (and I have a hard time believing this)....but my V6 powered Tacoma is "supposed" to be able to pull 6500 lbs.....so a trailer is a thought if you need to haul a bunch.

Having said all these rosy things about my Toyota....I bang my head on the SOB every single time I get in!! They probably don't have a lot of 6'3" Japanese.

Get whatever you can get with low mileage cheapest.  They are all going to suck up gas.  I disagree with Erin on have to have a pickup to build a house.  You can get many 4 wheel drive vehicles that can tow a trailer and the trailer for much cheaper than a pickup.  They also tend to get slightly better mileage then when you are not building.

I went with an almost new Wrangler because I know the engine and mechanics well.  I have had many over the years and can fix almost any part myself.  Also, it has changed only so much over the past 50 years so I can still work on it.  It was about $5,000-$10,000 cheaper than a new 4wd pickup.  The trailer and hitch was only $400 total. The trailer is also easier to get things in and out of and larger than a pickup bed too.  It also left me a lot of money left over for extra's like a winch (very handy).  A trailer can hold a lot of weight too.  Mine is rated for 1250 lbs (almost 3/4 ton) and many can hold over 2000 lbs. I have worked with many pickups over the years.  They can be handy, but I have been happier building with a trailer.  

As gas prices keep staying high, I have seen some SUVs dirt cheap.  They are not looked at as the same utility as pickups.  All vehicles are going to require maintenance/repairs.  Most consumer reports don't differ in huger percentages across most car companies.  Just don't go crazy and buy a Land Rover.

Lots of advice already and it sounds good to me.

Iv'e driven everything from Ford Bronco's to Lada's to HUMMV's and LAVS (ok they don't count since the have 8 wheels)...

In my opinion for what it's worth, the Jeep Cherokee is one of the best all around 4 wheel drive vehicles for offroad use with enough room to bring extra gear etc but not so big it won't go a lot of places.

The Cherokee and Wranglers share the inline 6 that has proven a very strong powerplant that will give you 300,000 to 400,000 miles of use -- which a LOT of others can't say.

I've got 212,000 miles on my XJ (Jeep Cherokee) now and though I had the head rebuilt I figure at 200K+ that aint bad!  It goes where I need it to and carries a lot of gear but isn't a pickup which I think many with land would argue is a better choice -- and they might be right if the requirement is to also carry lumber etc etc.

But there are lots of other great rigs out there like the older Toyota Land Cruisers, the Land Rovers, older bronco's and scouts and so much more.

it's almost 'what flavor do you want' once you get past Don's points which are all excellent.

Since this has grown a pickup truck subplot, I have more to add of the IMO, variety.

Depends. Depends on what else the vehicle must be called on to do.

In my case the XJ Cherokee was chosen for its rear seat when needed once in a while & it's enclosed rear space, in which I can sleep when camping.

I also have a 4 x 8 steel framed and boxed trailer. 18 inch sides and a tailgate. The box is actually 4'1" by 8'1" so it accepts 4x8 sheets goods with no problems. It has a tongue that is longer than normal and also extends, making it easier to carry long lumber on the top sides of the box. I've had it 28 years now. Replaced the springs once after I started the cabin build. It carries a ton easily.

As for the 4x4 I was also meaning a real 4x4, not some compact RAV4 or clone but a 4x4 with a rear low range t-case.

Quote from: Squirl on September 14, 2010, 04:06:32 PMI disagree with Erin on have to have a pickup to build a house.  You can get many 4 wheel drive vehicles that can tow a trailer and the trailer for much cheaper than a pickup.  

I didn't say you have to have a pickup to build a house. 
I said I wouldn't build one without. 

And you can get a fairly good, used pickup for a few thousand dollars.  A buddy just got a '97 Powerstroke in excellent shape for $4K.  Or you can go older, like a 70s era, for $1K.
Personally, I would never buy any vehicle new, particularly a pickup or SUV!  They depreciate entirely too fast.  But that's a whole 'nother topic.   ;)

So far as towing, I'd definitely want a pickup.  There's no way I'd manage to stay under a 2000 pound limit.  Again, though, that's me.
But I just got 6000 pounds of concrete blocks a couple of weeks ago, so this is fresh in my mind.  lol

BTW, our Powerstroke gets 19 mpg, empty.  (and about 11 with a trailer  ::)  )

hey guys, thanks for all the great input!  i have to say i was actually thinking about a jeep cherokee or wrangler, or an older toyota truck crawler.  but ive never been stuck in serious muck either.  i just remember how my daughter got stuck in some mud in her new dodge nitro and had to call a tow truck.  i know i need something that can really get us out of deep dodo!  you guys have been dealing with dirt roads that are as difficult as mine will be for a lot longer than i have even been worrying about it.  i really do appreciate all that your experience brings to the table.  i am thrilled to avoid making a big mistake when you fellas can guide me in the right direction.

i used to have a 1987 jeep cherokee straight 6.  it had the japanese tranny and 249,000 miles and the engine had never been opened up.  my mechanic was betting it would easily pass 300 K without major repairs, but it got hit and run one night while parked in front of my house.  that jeep r :Docked, but i never did any off road stuff in it.  the most 4-wheeling it saw was the interstate 80 over the donnor pass to reno and tahoe.  so i dont know from experience how well it would crawl out of a mile of muddy road.   hopefully there are other folks out there who have bought and plan on building a cabin who will benifit from you alls experience and expertise!  i really do value what you veterans have to say.

Quote from: altaoaks on September 14, 2010, 06:42:06 PM
hey guys, thanks for all the great input!  i have to say i was actually thinking about a jeep cherokee or wrangler, or an older toyota truck crawler.  but ive never been stuck in serious muck either.  i just remember how my daughter got stuck in some mud in her new dodge nitro and had to call a tow truck.  i know i need something that can really get us out of deep dodo!  you guys have been dealing with dirt roads that are as difficult as mine will be for a lot longer than i have even been worrying about it.  i really do appreciate all that your experience brings to the table.  i am thrilled to avoid making a big mistake when you fellas can guide me in the right direction.

i used to have a 1987 jeep cherokee straight 6.  it had the japanese tranny and 249,000 miles and the engine had never been opened up.  my mechanic was betting it would easily pass 300 K without major repairs, but it got hit and run one night while parked in front of my house.  that jeep r :Docked, but i never did any off road stuff in it.  the most 4-wheeling it saw was the interstate 80 over the donnor pass to reno and tahoe.  so i dont know from experience how well it would crawl out of a mile of muddy road.   hopefully there are other folks out there who have bought and plan on building a cabin who will benifit from you alls experience and expertise!  i really do value what you veterans have to say.

On the back of my XJ there is a sticker:  Got Mud :)

I used to LOVE getting mud on the roof and everywhere else and then parking by some bimmer suv that was spotless -- maybe even a little too close *snicker*

Extreme Xj's are beyond my knowledge and Don has done some pretty crazy stuff (to me) in his XJ but before you run out and buy anything consider a few things:

1.  If a little lift is in order you'll want to upgrade the gears.  My XJ with 31" tires did ok with stock diffs but really it wasn't right.  So I put in 4.10:1's and am much happier.
2.  Lift and tires -- if you expect to drive in mud then a decent lift (OME 3" or one of the Rubicon or other 4.5" lifts might be in order) and a good set of tires is in order.  I've been using the Les Swab Wild Countries (and their replacement) for a while and find they work nicely.
3.  Winch -- can't go wrong with a winch IMHO and though mine hasn't been needed in the 8 years or so I've owned a cherokee it has helped pull others out.  A winch that can be mounted in the rear when needed is smart for those days you go a little too far.
4.  High lift jack -- useful in more ways then one can imagine but my advice, for what it's worth, is to stay out of those spots.

The Cherokee can get 19mpg if it's tuned right (automatic -- the manual I had got 23) but it's no gas miser.

I can tow 3000lbs with the XJ but not sure I'd tow the 5000 it's rated for -- seems a bit much.

All in all it's a personal thing but the XJ has a reputation for going a long long time with good maintenance.  I've seen them turn over 300k without too much fuss.  Mine did need the top end rebuilt but that isn't always the case -- they are all different.

Anyway, a good live axle true 4x4 is hard to beat in the mud, snow, sand or rough steep roads!

(https://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj20/RIJake/Photo093.jpg)
(https://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj20/RIJake/Photo092.jpg)

Here's my present daily driver.  I've had this for over 5 years and have been very happy with the performance especially off-road.  The roads around my land in Maine can be a little rough and this truck handles it fine.  It's a V6, 5 spd.  Now I've got extensive experience with Jeeps and Fords too and wouldn't bad mouth them either for the same job.  The Toyota is just what i'm driving now.  This truck is actually for sale right now, I'm looking to upsize to the Tundra 4 door to have more room for the family during the 4 hour trip to Maine!

much thanks to you all, squirl, erin, proud poppa, phalynx, oljarhead, rijake, and mountaindon!! [cool] 8).  

hey mountaindon, hows the weather out there in NM?  im from clovis, and spent much happy weekends at my aunt iris ranch and general store in mccallister (near tuccumcari)  well, im a bit home sick, really miss the culture!

Still 88 at present here in RR. The cabin looks like 76 right now and will likely fall to the mid 40's tonight.

Ya' might be needing a green chili fix too?   ;D   El Pinto has mail order.


Back to the mud.  I really dislike mud because of the cleanup later. I'd rather play on the rocks than play in the mud. But sometimes it can not be avoided.

Most 4x4's off the showroom floor will get stuck on a mucky road. That's because most come with tires that suck in muck. The all weather or so called M&S treads have too small of an open space between tread blocks. They fill up with muck and becomes slicks. Muck calls for genuine mud tires with big blocky tread blocks and big spaces between them. Even those work best when they are spinning fast enough to cast off the mud that wants to stick in those spaces. The downside of those is that they wear out a bit faster or a whole lot faster than many other tires. I have also found that for some reason when an XJ is flat towed, as in dragging it around behind the RV, the front tires wear funny. The block wear becomes uneven and then the tires become NOISY when driving on normal roads. I believe it has something to do with the large overhang an RV has behind the rear axle and the sideways push that generates when the RV turns. In any event I never had that problem until I flat towed it to UT once. After that I would always hope to cut a sidewall at the end of a trail ride so I could use the Discount Tire road hazard warranty.

I have had my fully locked XJ sunk to the axles; as well as my old fully locked and setup CJ sunk to the frame rails. At times like that it helps recovery if one knows when to give up. 

Also most any 4x4 is actually a 2x2 unless equipped with at least a factory type limited slip differential. Many have only what are called open differentials, open diffs. Some may have a limited slip in the rear axle. If one wheel on each open diff axle has no traction the 4x4 becomes a 0x0.

Locking diffs are a very good solution, especially if they are of the type that can be turned on and off at will (ARB, Eaton and Ox). There are also lockers that are always 'on' or active (Detroit, Lock-Rite). Always 'on' can be a problem in some situations like slippery side slopes. These are all after market installations. I must admit that I have not kept myself up to date as far as what factory rides come with good locking diffs. I know the Rubicon series of Wranglers do, but believe there are others (some Dodge and Hummer?) that do.  Note that a limited slip diff is NOT a locker. I don't know how easy it would be to find a used Rubicon but that could be a good choice. There are many that have not seen much heavy off road use.


Hard to beat a crawler tracktor with wide tracks...   ;D

 :) :)you are so right mountaindon, what i realllllly need is some NM chilli peppers.  id kill for some NM enchiladas and beans!  you just cant get that outside of NM.  some try to fake it, but it looses that sumthin sumthin in the translation!  my brother is in FL and he, too is missing home cooked food.  he is looking for land near santa fe, soon as he unloads his home in FL he is there.  good, ill have a place to stay and get the best real new mexican food in the world :P. 

i will head your advice on the 4by and the tires.  sounds like i need most any 4by thats high off the ground, and it needs 2 sets of tires,  1 for the winter and another for the rest of the year and just change them out seasonally?  or else park a basic 4by at the end of the dirt road, and a monster for the dirt road.  well, i am going to have to work on that.

thanks again, for the info and for the home cooking that i think i can really taste right now!  i will savor both. 

Many years ago, I had a winter set of tires mounted on rims (33x9.5) and set of summer rims and tires (33x12.5) for a Scout. That was nice. Did the same thing back home in the seventies with a set of front and rear summer and studded winter tires on the 123Gt I had.

Every year in early winter, like about the time the snow starts to collect in the mountains, I get to thinking about doing the same. But that would only buy me another month of mountain driving access at the most. Our mountain access road, 3 miles, is not plowed at all, has umpteen dozen curves, some with slight sidehill towards the hard way down, plus elevation changes, some of which are steep..... It's just not worth the expense and the potential for trouble.

A thing or two to add - most of the above are good and bad as Don mentioned - most will do the trick.

4 wheel drive doesn't always mean you can go anywhere in anything.  It just means that when it is stuck in the mud it is a hell of a lot harder to get it out.

That said, I would also recommend a Dodge 4x4 pickup used with a Cummins diesel except one with the 53 block...  They are usually reasonably cheap and generally get around 20 mpg for a full size except when loaded heavy. 

Also - Mahindra is coming out with a small diesel 4x4 truck - I think next year - they did just finally get their EPA certification.    

It is supposed to be around $25000 and get around 30 mpg.  It is supposedly about the size of a Tundra - a bit bigger than small I think.

I have an 1965 Rover, model 88 with canvas top.  I love it but realize it isn't right for others or for your application.  Its been practical for my small scale construction projects.  I've had it for almost 20 years during which the first 10 was hard off road use.  The engine was rebuilt 3 years ago.  The aluminum body work will outlast me.  I've galvanized any of the steel framing of the bodywork and the whole firewall  And now rebuilding the truck onto a new galvanised chassis.  Its my little workhorse.

Some day I'll have to learn how to post pics.  I've looked at the tutorial and it looks challenging.

It's easy, Rover.

Start a Photobucket acct free.  Upload your picture.  Name or save it without a name.  Copy the bottom IMG tag on the picture and paste it into your message where you want the pix to appear as you are composing it.

Also - Mahindra is coming out with a small diesel 4x4 truck Come on Glen do you really belive it ? I have been waiting for about 4 years now  [noidea'

I've owned several different brands and types of vehicles within those brands. 

For rock crawling, I'd pick a Jeep. 

For mud, snow, and tight areas, I'd pick a late 90's 4-Runner. 

For towing, I'll stick with my F250 PS. 

Quote4 wheel drive doesn't always mean you can go anywhere in anything.  It just means that when it is stuck in the mud it is a hell of a lot harder to get it out.

My dad always taught us to drive as though you don't have 4WD.  That way, if you get stuck, you can pop it in 4WD and get out.
But if you get stuck IN 4WD you need a tractor.   :P

QuoteI would also recommend a Dodge 4x4 pickup used with a Cummins diesel

Well I suppose...
But only if you can't find a Ford!  ;)


Truth be told, if I were shopping for something to be JUST for 4WD and cabin-building, I'd get an old Ford Highboy.  They have about nine parts, all of which are readily available.  The engine compartment is enormous so they're easy to work on.  It's old enough (and made from real steel!) you'll won't cry when you bang it up.  And, unless you find one that's all souped up, you can find a good running one for less than $2K.  
And old pickups were made in the day when they were built to be ABUSED and live to tell the tale.  

PS:  How bad does this road usually get??

Quoteor else park a basic 4by at the end of the dirt road, and a monster for the dirt road.

A "dirt" road doesn't mean it's full of washouts or always muddy...  
Though the last place we lived on, I had three miles of just such a road and I drove it with my Focus.  lol  
For that matter, my Metro is the best vehicle I've ever had in nice, greasy mud.  So long as I didn't high-center, I can get that thing through some pretty messy roads.  Deep snow is a problem though unless you're driving something both high, and heavy.  That way you can hit drifts and have the momentum to carry you through.

But unless you have regular rain/heavy snow, you probably won't need too much, just to get down a dirt road...   ???

And it's only a mile??  Unless you're hauling big stuff in (lumber, etc.) you can just walk in if the road was too bad.  Again, experience talking.  lol

As usual Don's posts are excellent :)

I use one set of tires year round, but I don't drive in deep mud anymore.  

The road I'm driving is 3 miles of rocky and rough road that can get washes out if the rain gets coming darn hard and can be covered in lots of snow and deep ice.  It's very steep in places and is downright scary unless you've got chains.

Thanks to Don's and others posts last winter I bought a set of V Groove chains and now don't worry about that 4 or 5 inch deep ICE!  I just chop my way through it.

Anyway, if you buy a used Jeep with Limited slip in the rear (lots if not all of the newer XJ's had it) then expect to get it rebuilt.  Mine was breaking way low so when I had the gears put in I had the LS rebuilt so it functioned correctly (nice to have a shop handy that actually knows how to check it).  That means that I mostly have a 3x4 :)  I don't really have a need for lockers mind you, but I live in drier country and won't drive the jeep up big rocks like Don will (I'm afraid it might fall over! hahah).

But you have to know your roads and weather before making that choice.  If I were in a lot of deep mud I'd lift it 3-4.5" and make sure I had some decent road/mud tires and then be darn sure I had the winch on a receiver hitch mount so I could mount it in the rear -- why?  It's always best to retrieve from whence you came.

In Armored vehicle recovery school you learn that a vehicle sunk to the axles is now twice as heavy as not.  Thus your winch has to be able to handle twice the weight of you rig at a min.  Second, a block and tackle roped to a tree (wire roped that is) allows you to run the winch cable through the bock and tackle and back to your jeep doubling the pulling power of the winch :)  So an 8000lb winch suddenly becomes a 16000lbs winch...do it again and it effectively triples the power -- yes I've had to do that.

Note:  When in 3-4 feet of watery mud in a big storm trying to hook up the winch cable to the rig after rigging the block and tackles, when lighting strikes, can be VERY exciting!  <-- yes I've been there.

I'll try to post a pic of recovering an 8 wheeled vehicle in recovery school...over 6 feet of mud in a tank trap and I was junior Marine...so you know who got to go swimming that day?

Anyway, I digress!  I beleive in purchasing used, something with a solid reputation, color isn't as important as history of the rig -- take it to a shop -- I can't stress that enough.  Pay the shop to tell you what it needs.

For example:  You can buy forestry Jeeps out here with low miles on them.  A friend bought his 99 XJ for $3000 with less then 100k on the clock (I think it was 70k).  It needs nothing.  Of course it has low pinion diffs and he wants the high pinions so will replace those and it's stock height etc.

I bought my 98 xj in 2005 and it had 100k on it.  It was a fleet rig and looked new.  Ran great but wasn't long that I needed suspension so the OME (Old Man Emu) 3" lift went in (was cheaper then stock anyway) which led to bigger tires, a little more lift, offset rims, bumper, brush guard, winch, seat, and more and more and more...so be careful not to get carried away....

But my XJ is still cheaper then a new vehicle :) and runs awesome.

Lastly:  my mechanic tells me that Jeep stands for:  Just Empty Every Pocket.

Cheers
Erik

Quote from: Erin on September 15, 2010, 10:05:23 AM
PS:  How bad does this road usually get??

Quoteor else park a basic 4by at the end of the dirt road, and a monster for the dirt road.

A "dirt" road doesn't mean it's full of washouts or always muddy...  
Though the last place we lived on, I had three miles of just such a road and I drove it with my Focus.  lol  
For that matter, my Metro is the best vehicle I've ever had in nice, greasy mud.  So long as I didn't high-center, I can get that thing through some pretty messy roads.  Deep snow is a problem though unless you're driving something both high, and heavy.  That way you can hit drifts and have the momentum to carry you through.

But unless you have regular rain/heavy snow, you probably won't need too much, just to get down a dirt road...   ???

And it's only a mile??  Unless you're hauling big stuff in (lumber, etc.) you can just walk in if the road was too bad.  Again, experience talking.  lol

Excellent point!

My wifes Chevy Astro Van has driven into our place a few times.  When the weather is good and there is not risk of a washout it makes it there ok -- though some steep sections you have to be careful or it will spin and dig up the gravel a bit trying to make the grade ;)

Clearly one size does not fit all!   Going and coming from our property is 50 / 50 dirt - pavement.  Our dirt roads are very well maintained roads.  But we have some very long steep hills.  My wife's Charger makes it up and back just fine, as does my little fuel squeezer three seasons.  But hey winter time    :-\

So for us it is a short box Ford F250 PS 4X4.   I am usually pulling a trailer so it seems.  So the short box works great.  We have a very heavy duty flat bed and a stock trailer for pull trailers.  (We haul the fourwheelers in the stock trailer all the time.  Sort of a garage for them this time of year.)  We had a removable fifth wheel / goose neck hitch also installed.  When it is removed there is not even a bracket in the back.  To hook up to a goose neck trailer just pull the release in the wheel well.  Climb in the back, pull the goose neck ball up and turn it over and simply set it back into the hole.  Lock the ball in by closing the release in the wheel well.  That works so good, we will do that again on our next truck.  There is no bracket or anything in the bed.

Hauling a lot of weight in and out as we do, both my wife and I.  With an automatic and steep hills it is pure 'pay me now, or pay me latter....'  I watch the AT temp gauge very closely as I do the fluid for any sign of discoloration.  Clearly the weak link in this truck is the AT.  But we get it serviced very regularly fluid changed and flushed and it has paid off big time.  2003 and runs like new.

If I were to buy another truck new today for the applications we use them - Chevy Duramax with the Alison.  

hi guys, i slipped off t work, couldnt wait to get back in and read more. [cool] 

erin, my area is just below the tahoe national forest at about 4000 elevation in the sierra nevadas.  mostly ponderosas and other pines.  it gets about 3' of snow at the worst, some ice, lots of rain.  my dirt road isnt real steep, but it curves around a bit, and it is an easement for 3 other properties.  the other 3 are up there full time.  therefore it gets quite a bit of use.  the neighbor said they get enough snow that they loose power for as much as a week at a time.  if you go off that road you go into a ravine the entire distance.  its got some potholes, i have a dodge grand caravan, and it makes it in ok with good weather.  we only bought it this spring, so i dont know from personal experience how bad it gets, but the neighbor makes it sound pretty rugged.  the dirt there is some DG and a lot of clay.  i hope the DG is primary, but i see lots of clay so getting stuck sounds like a real party.  the neighbor has 2 snowmobiles and says they are mandatory in the worst snow storms.  they have a little tractor they make use of also.  but the guys a bit lazy as with that tractor the road should be pristine, at least in the summer, which it was not.

oljarhead, thats great imput.  you guys have me thinking.  thanks to all who have shared their knowledge and experience.  you make the learning curve hurt less!

well, im off to another jobsite, ill check back in when i return.  many thanks to all.

Sorry to hijack the thread.
I'm trying to add photos for first time.  Thanks Glenn.  I hope this worked. It's 2 pics of my little workhorse.  One is just before the rebuild started.  The other obviously part way thru the project.

(https://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/roverlarry/My%20Rover/01beforestart.jpg)


(https://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/roverlarry/My%20Rover/06newchassiswithaxles.jpg)

Quote from: texasgun on September 15, 2010, 09:48:18 AM
Also - Mahindra is coming out with a small diesel 4x4 truck Come on Glen do you really belive it ? I have been waiting for about 4 years now  [noidea'

I know TG....

It's just that the finally got the EPA thing passed....

Dealer lawsuit was still hanging last I heard...

but... still .. maybe....

Quote from: NM_Shooter on September 15, 2010, 09:50:42 AM
I've owned several different brands and types of vehicles within those brands. 

For rock crawling, I'd pick a Jeep. 

For mud, snow, and tight areas, I'd pick a late 90's 4-Runner. 

For towing, I'll stick with my F250 PS. 

I agree, Frank... I've towed lots of Fords with my Dodge right after the had a power stroke....

Just razzin ya a bit....

I will say that the Dodge Cummins  is way easier to work on with the straight six - much more room than the rest.

Quote from: altaoaks on September 15, 2010, 07:16:38 PM
hi guys, i slipped off t work, couldnt wait to get back in and read more. [cool] 

erin, my area is just below the tahoe national forest at about 4000 elevation in the sierra nevadas.  mostly ponderosas and other pines.  it gets about 3' of snow at the worst, some ice, lots of rain.  my dirt road isnt real steep, but it curves around a bit, and it is an easement for 3 other properties.  the other 3 are up there full time.  therefore it gets quite a bit of use.  the neighbor said they get enough snow that they loose power for as much as a week at a time.  if you go off that road you go into a ravine the entire distance.  its got some potholes, i have a dodge grand caravan, and it makes it in ok with good weather.  we only bought it this spring, so i dont know from personal experience how bad it gets, but the neighbor makes it sound pretty rugged.  the dirt there is some DG and a lot of clay.  i hope the DG is primary, but i see lots of clay so getting stuck sounds like a real party.  the neighbor has 2 snowmobiles and says they are mandatory in the worst snow storms.  they have a little tractor they make use of also.  but the guys a bit lazy as with that tractor the road should be pristine, at least in the summer, which it was not.

oljarhead, thats great imput.  you guys have me thinking.  thanks to all who have shared their knowledge and experience.  you make the learning curve hurt less!

well, im off to another jobsite, ill check back in when i return.  many thanks to all.

Clay can be the worst.  hard underneath with grease on the top.  I have parked my truck at the bottom of the hill about 500 feet from the top when it started sliding sideways.  In a few hours it dries out - no problem.  Packed snow or ice can be the same on a side hill.  Don't push your luck even with 4x4.

Quote from: Erin on September 15, 2010, 09:53:59 AM

Quote4 wheel drive doesn't always mean you can go anywhere in anything.  It just means that when it is stuck in the mud it is a hell of a lot harder to get it out.

My dad always taught us to drive as though you don't have 4WD.  That way, if you get stuck, you can pop it in 4WD and get out.
But if you get stuck IN 4WD you need a tractor.   :P

QuoteI would also recommend a Dodge 4x4 pickup used with a Cummins diesel

Well I suppose...
But only if you can't find a Ford!  ;)


Truth be told, if I were shopping for something to be JUST for 4WD and cabin-building, I'd get an old Ford Highboy.  They have about nine parts, all of which are readily available.  The engine compartment is enormous so they're easy to work on.  It's old enough (and made from real steel!) you'll won't cry when you bang it up.  And, unless you find one that's all souped up, you can find a good running one for less than $2K.   
And old pickups were made in the day when they were built to be ABUSED and live to tell the tale. 

You got it Erin.  Get stuck in 2 wd - maybe out in 4 wd. 

I was always one to do some stupid stuff having fun though.  Like driving on frozen snow then dropping through with all 4 , then using the winch to pull it out a bit sideways to the best tree I could find and popping the tire off of the rim.  Then airing the tire up with the freon from my air conditioner... then I got out [ouch]   and eased it back to town...

A Ford, Erin....  Ever try to work on one of those?  Don't try to tell me you don't have to... I have neighbors with Fords - haven't seen him for a while -- truck broke down....(his Ford)  :)

Rover -- cool - now we can see what you are up to. :)

Quote from: Erin on September 15, 2010, 09:53:59 AM
....... I'd get an old Ford Highboy.  They have about nine parts, all of which are readily available.  The engine compartment is enormous so they're easy to work on.  It's old enough (and made from real steel!) you'll won't cry when you bang it up.

with emphasis on the highboy. Back in the day I thought it was just about the end of the world as we knew it when they lowered their 4x4.   

One like this but with Knobby Gnarly tires
(http://www.rustfreeclassics.com/images/Ford/72F250_XLT_Blue_White/Right.jpg)

Lots of room for the mud to fly....

You can get as serious as your wallet can handle but in my view the best 4 by is the one that runs and is paid in full.

If you drive with a little finesse you can go a long ways. I've driven a 64 plymouth valiant to places most would fear to tread.  ;)

I agree. 
4WD doesn't make up for someone who can't drive.  ;)

Talking about me again, Erin?... [waiting]

:)

I got my 81 Cherokee Chief running decent finally too.  The smog stuff is no longer available - without it the old carb will not put in fuel - electronic controls - so I junked a lot of the stuff and put a Weber conversion on it.  Getting the bumps out of it now but much better.

Anybody worry about the K&N type filter Weber uses - will it dust out an engine in fine clay dust?

I know a number of people who use a K&N oiled filter element on vehicles and many have 200,000+ miles with no apparent issues. Me too. But my '99 only just turned over the 100K mark.  And that's with a lot of fine dusty trails here in NM and UT.

Thanks, Don - Harry was a bit worried about it so hopefully I can stop worrying about it now. :)

New Jeep Cherokee Commercial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi0SbrrGaiw

My filter sure collects a lot of crud.


I've seen that commercial. All the new 4x4's look too cushy, too polished. I miss the rubber mats in the old Land Cruisers and the old Scouts.

I also use a K&N with Rusty's tube -- no problems at all.

But then I've been around and involved with racing for many years (not now) and K&N's are used a heck of a lot!  Baja was/is a proving ground and a K&N will flow better clogged then a fram that's new :)

My rover has an interesting air filter.  Its an oil bath type canister standing approx 12" tall.  Its a double wall canister.  Outside air enters from top down thru the centre tube and it has to bubble thru approx 2" of oil.  The oil sits in a wire mesh to keep it from sloshing too much.  The dirt stays in the oil and the clean air is drawn to the outside cavity where its drawn up to the hose to the carb.  Quite simple and has worked in that fine silt of Baja California and in water-crossing up back home.

A Tacoma 4WD that seats four. There is an english TV show that tries to destroy vehicles and the mechanics only have 20 minutes to fix them. Yep, the Toyota Tacoma!

You are speaking of Top Gear...and the Toyota Hi Lux.  The Hi lux has almost NO similarity to the Tacoma until the most recent version and it is not because they brought the Tacoma up to the Hi Lux standards...Also, that was a diesel.

That being said, the pre-Tacoma and the first gen Tacoma 4WD are exceptionally rugged.  The 22R/22RE motors will not die.  I would say the same of the Nissan Hardbody and first gen Frontier with the D24 motor or the later 3.3L VG motor.

The Mahindra that was mentioned early has more in common with the Hi Lux or the BT50 Mazda/Ford small truck (not sold in America).  I am one of the ones really hoping Mahindra can make a go of it because the Mazda will hopefully put their new Sky-D motor into a US-legal BT50 now that they can't rebadge American Ford Rangers much longer.

If all you need it is to get you in and out and heavy loads are not a consideration, the Suzuki Sidekick is cheap, capable and even makes an inexpensive daily driver.

(https://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af102/emcvay/Hondainsnow2.jpg)
Four studded snow tires, front wheel drive, and more guts then brains maybe....

I drove this 1981 Honda Civic home (10 miles) through a blizzard that dumped over 18" of snow on us that night....I made it home just fine...though it was hard to see after a while!

The spoiler pushed the snow right up over the grill and onto the Windshield stopping the windshield whipers!

This was taken in 1983/84 in Port Alberni BC.

trust me folks, I AM taking notes.  i really appreciate everyones imput here, and i know so much more than i did before i asked.  i would not have known to look for a 4 by that is high off the ground, and tires were (in my mind) any mud and snow would do.  well, i will be a much more discriminating buyer thanks to all of you who have put in your knowledge and experience.

Much Thanks to MountainDon, Rover, Oljarhead, Glen Kangiser,  Dug, Onkeludo2, Dave Sparks, et al.  I am sure that there are more folks out there who will be appreciating your help with the learning curve.

I am next wanting to get my 81 Jeep Cherokee Chief up higher off of the ground.  Made it to LA and back so may go farther in working on it.

One more obstacle before that though is seeing if I miss out on having to smog it at license time this year.  I think I am home free though.

Hey Glen! Why is it you don't avoid the smog thing by using m-posa? just curious...

I am, Dave.  Got the initial smog passed when I bought it and should be no more except...

There are stories of a change in the smog inspections and cars under 30 years old will have to pass smog.  It is just turning 30.  I don't know the validity of the rumor as things get blown out of proportion sometimes.  It is coming up for renewal next month I think.  If there are no problems then I will continue to do things to it to make it into a real usable vehicle.. I hope.

Looking at going to 33 inch tires - lifting the body possibly and working over the suspension to get 'er up.

33 inch tires...  My memory wants to say it's got a torqueflite    ???   I hope so.

Your axle gears may be 3.31  3.54  maybe 3.73

None of them are really great with 33 inch tires although if it's an automatic that helps.

I had a CJ with 33's (stock 3.54 gears) and the only thing that saved the low speed 4x4 performance was the granny low gear in the 4 speed manual.

Something to think about. 4.11 to 4.88's would be better.


FWIW, my XJ Cherokee ran the stock 3.54 gears for a short time with the 32" tires. It drove okay because of the automatic, but the fuel milegae sucked bad. Mileage improved when I went to 4.56 gears.


Also note that they get harder to stop as the tire sizes go up. Not bad with power brakes usually, but some of the early boosters are a bit iffy with big rubber. A very nice fix is the "hydra-boost" (i think it was called). Made by GM it used hydraulic pressure from the power steering pump to boost the brakes. IIRC it was used on some commercial vans, maybe some Cadillacs. ???  There's a guy in Farmington, NM who sells the made up kit for Jeep use.

Yup - got the torque flight.

Maybe 32" tires would be better for it.  I was just talking to my son a bit and he mentioned 33's I think. 

It does have power brakes that were OH'd before I got it. 

I'm having a bit of a stalling problem in reverse and hesitation getting up to speed - haven't figured out if it is trans or carb-timing etc related.  The trans was overhauled and I think the torque converter may be a bit more aggressive causing some of it.  Don't know.  Harry said the TF was a bit noted for being a bit grabby in reverse especially.

On road it does quite well - just the reverse is worst.  Lately it has occasionally backed up well.  Wondering if it has anything to do with breaking in the trans clutches as it has few miles on either the engine or trans since OH at this time.

FWIW there's a tire/gear chart at   http://www.jeep4x4center.com/jeep-tires/tire-gear-ratio-chart.htm (http://www.jeep4x4center.com/jeep-tires/tire-gear-ratio-chart.htm)   The chart has  tire dia, gears and RPM's for comparison.

It's always hard to decide what is best when looking at bigger tires and not getting into the $$ of swapping diff gears. Helps to know what's in there now. With luck there may be tags/labels that are still readable. Or jack it and count turns wheel/driveshaft.

When it comes to AT all I know is that if it stops working I'm in trouble. I change oil and filter, have an external cooler and hope for the best.  :)

Thanks, Don.

I'll do a bit more checking.  Right now my speedometer is a bit slow but the odometer seems about right.  A bit bigger tires could remedy part of that.

  kaleco auto makes a affordable AWD conversion for us DIY folks.

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=38 (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=38)

Quote from: diyfrank on September 25, 2010, 09:37:48 AM
 kaleco auto makes a affordable AWD conversion for us DIY folks.

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=38 (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=38)

" Please refrain from making left or right turns once this kit is installed. To enjoy the added handling benefits of AWD with this kit, is important that the steering wheel remains perfectly centered!"   

WTH!

it's all tongue in cheek.    good one

I found a comment somewhere that the Chief was made wider to accommodate 31" tires easily - May go with that and build the longer shackles you posted elsewhere to get her up a bit, Don.

Found a neat  cheap distributor upgrade also - maybe getting it soon after checking out what I already have. 

http://www.4wd.com/productdetails.aspx?partID=43448

I note it says for 83 up SJ - I assume it will still work in the 81

They have made lots of improvements since the early days smog experimentation.

As for the hydraulic brake boost, this was employed by GM in the 1984 K30 chevy 1 ton pickups. They made a whole bunch special for the military and are know as M1008 CUCV's which stands for Civilian
Utility Cargo Vehicles. They use the 6.2 diesel engines, beefed up springs to make it a 5/4 ton truck, Dana 60 front end with manual lockers, and a 24 volt starting system to comply with NATO. Parts are generally available thru NAPA and others. The few Military parts are available from surplus dealers like Saturn Surplus.
They are geared low, so they are slow. I have 35 inch tires on mine so
you can go 55 -60. It will go faster in a pinch but it is not a good idea for the long run. They are real work horses. If you are lucky, you can get one thru Government Liquidation auctions, but be very careful. You need to inspect before biding on them, and when you do record the vin. They have a habit giving the wrong trucks out.
More info on this at SteelSoldiers forum. But you can get some good deals if you are careful.
The M1008 is the pickup, but they also have the M1009 which is a Blazer. Not quite as tough but mostly the same. Different front end.
Bruce

HEI distributors!!!!!!    All you need is a used one from an inline GM six (250? 292??)  and a new gear on the bottom of it to fit the cam on the Jeep six. I did that on my old modified CJ. Someone also makes a spring kit for adjusting the advance curve.   I'll try to reach back into the unused recesses of my brain.....  There is (or was) a guy in Califonia that sold the used dist with the new gear installed. .... specializes in used 4x4 equipment, small town, maybe starting with letter A   ?  ???   d*

The gear is from an '83 and later AMC V8, engine part number 3208615. It fits right on the GM dist shaft.   You also need a different wire set. My head is telling me it might be a set for a Ford 300 six. Not sure tho'

Thanks, Don.  I got past another year of smog - license is on its way so I don't think it will ever be an issue for me.  Bring on the mods and we will get this thing running better.  Actually it is getting to be quite drivable now and after the trip to LA I'm not too worried about it.


After the trans overhaul the mechanic had me put a filter on the cooler and I was supposed to take it off.  Apparently it is in parallel with the torque converter so was adding pressure to the system making the stall problem in reverse worse.  Took the filter off and it eased up a bit.  Still a bit luggy in reverse and low so maybe some adjustments and the other tune up items will help.  Still pretty easy to stall in reverse.

Now that you mention it, Bruce, I have seen a few of them around but thought that some kid just camoed his pickup. [ouch]

The distributor change was the easiest, fastest mod I ever made to the CJ and it was probably very cost efficient. We had to recurve it mainly because of the other things, cam, EFI, etc etc.

Seems this would be hard to beat for $123. including spark plug wires and is a one wire hookup, brand new and ready to go.

http://www.4wd.com/productdetails.aspx?partID=43448

Yeah, for brand new it's a good looking deal.  I had a friend who worked at a local salvage yard find me a very nice almost new one for cheap. I got the gear from the guy in CA who I can't recall  d* and the wires from Checker. The recurve kit was from Summit Racing. That just clicked. There may be hope for me yet!  Those HEI are all one wire, BTW. Maybe two if you count the tach hookup?

Cool - I think I will call the tech line to make sure there are no other reasons I would not want it but I am pretty sure it will work.  The Weber worked great.

I think I found more of the problem with the trans - I'm going over the 82 manual I found on line at http://oljeep.com/edge_parts_man.html

I downloaded the entire 82 manual and can print the pages - that helps and seems to be the same as the 81.  I am sure my throttle control rod to the trans is not right.  Think I have the procedure figured out from the semi vague drawings and instructions plus I have old memories of doing similar on the old Dodge 727's when I was a mechanic there.

So many sections to the manual in PDF, I used Pagenest to DL the entire manual  (Used to be Webstripper I think)

Called them - the tech did not recommend that one due to overseas quality issues even though they sell it.

He recommended this one instead but the cost is of course more.  Probably worth it though out of stock til the 5th.

http://www.4wd.com/productdetails.aspx?jeep-sid=11&plID=614&partID=6348

It is already curved for the jeep.

Ahhh Jeeps :)  Gotta love them.


Speaking of dizzy mods, I was told by my mech (funny that I would call anyone 'my mechanic' since technically I am one but sometimes it's just nicer to let someone else do the hard work...but I digress) that the XJ dizzy's while nearly impossible to put in wrong, also nearly impossible to adjust.  They are designed with tabs which prevent the dizzy from rotating, however as the XJ's age and things loosen up (like timing chains) they may run out thereby causing issues.

The fix, I'm told, is to file off the tabs and make some kind of cap with a window in it (no thanks)...in order to index timing correctly.  Anyway, after the top end was rebuilt on the Road Warrior he also did this and told me that if not done it's a common cause of top end problems with XJ's (at least those with this dizzy style anyway I guess) because the computer can't actually adjust the timing correctly because it's starting point is off.

Either way, the Road Warrior managed 12.5mpg pulling a trailer (loaded and unloaded) with roof rack and tire on the roof! :D  Used to get 7-10mpg doing that...also ran 70 on the interstate like no bodies business!  Had to use Cruise to stop myself from going faster!

As for lift:  I'm sometimes tempted to go with 4.5" versus the 3" OME lift I have now (and extra 1/2" or so from added leafs) but then I smack myself silly and smarten up ;)

Sure, I'd LOVE 4.5" or even 6" of lift....but I have absolutely no need for it.  I'm one of those tempted to do it because I love the way it looks but always stopping because I realize I'd be wasting money that would be better spent elsewhere.

As for the ZJ's I have a friend who MOAB's his (used to be into eXtreme Xj's) and while he doesn't take the daily driver over the trails (often) he's very content with a 2" lift -- not sure tires though.  It looks great and gets him around nicely.

Last note, re lifting:  Seems most spring lifts are for articulation and not towing.  If you tow with your lifted rig and didn't go with the much stiffer 4.5" Rubicon (XJ's) or similar lift (like say a 3"OME) you might find yourself adding a leaf to the rear to take the tongue weight on the trailer.  (thoughts Don)?

What I did was cut the eyes off a main spring (98 xj) and bolt it right into the OME spring pack.  Has worked very well and didn't notice any real difference.

OH wait, one more thing (aint there always)...when lifting there is usually a range (XJ's 0-3" roughly) that you can do without tilting diffs, dropping transfer cases, changing steering or control arms etc etc)...be good to know that on your own rig.

Cheers
Erik

Thanks Erik.

I think I will do a moderate lift as you mentioned.  Roads here are pretty rough and I already have a rash on my exhaust pipe from bottoming out.  Probably a bit of spring sag over 30 years.  I also have been thinking about the added leafs.

I found info on the why's to not get the cheap distributor and the info given to me by the tech above was right on according to this.

http://www.cj-8.com/forum/showthread.php?p=198276

it's been noted that not all need a 4 X 4.  That's true... oh, I'd like one...but don't need one so bad that I am willing to put up with all the extra costs associated with 4 X 4 heavy duty.

It was also said that "I would never build a house without a pickup".   I don't agree with that.  I would never build a house without a van and a trailer!  ALL the mid and back seats in my van go into the floor and I can put 4 X 8 sheets in there....and 10 ft lumber.... and still close the door.   They call them mini-vans, but many aren't anywhere near mini anymore.  Mine's a 2006 Dodge SXT with Stow&Go seating.

"You got it Erin.  Get stuck in 2 wd - maybe out in 4 wd"

arround here

that will guarentee you'll be digging for quite a while.

even on the trail to the right I'd still use 4x4 as there are surprise softspots........you can usually find the car mats palm leaves etc of self rescues performed in the first section ;D of those who turned the corner in 2wd 8)

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/wahiba%20challenge%202009/DSC_3529.jpg)


Mind you miss a turn on the hard side and end up in the soft and you soon be in up to your axles even in locked rear 4x4

sand ladders and a tow out required using a kinetic strap............a standard one will just mean you have two stuck trucks

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/wahiba%20challenge%202009/DSC_3571.jpg)


Where's the Nissan button !

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/wahiba%20challenge%202009/slip9.jpg)

Nice sandbox UK!  

I'm a believer that if you have 4wd then you should use it if the going may be tough enough to require it. Waiting to engage 4wd or low range, if the going is slow enough, can make you wish you had already done so. Several of the trail incidents I have been involved in rescuing came about, at least in part, because the driver did not engage low range or 4 wd before it was needed.

Your friend in sand is low tire pressure. On the XJ I run the 32 x 11.5 x 15's down to about 12-13 lbs. My CJ with 33's ran down to 9 lbs. Sometimes if you get stuck in sand with 25 lbs or higher pressure you can drive out by lowering pressure and digging "ramps" in the sand. I've done that.

Lift?  How much? Depends.   ???  Depends on the job at hand.  What size tires.

On an XJ I believe that anything over 4.5 inches borders on being stupid. Somewhere I have photos of a 6 inch lifted XJ on its roof. In a parking lot!  :o

My XJ has a 4.5 inch lift from Rubicon Express with the exception of the rear springs. The rear leafs are from National Spring. Have the vehicle weighed in trail trim; all the stuff you usually carry. Get front and rear axle weights as well as total weight. They build the springs to suit. 32 inch tires work well with that amount of lift.

I do not like add a leafs, but will admit they can add height and capacity for a smaller cash outlay. They also make the ride stiffer, IMO. How's yours?  I've ridden in a friend's XJ and it seems to have no springs at all in the rear. Not all brands are created equal, either.

When I tow the trailer, I have 75 to 150 lbs on the hitch (empty to full). There is little noticeable sag to the rear of the Jeep with the trailer load distributed correctly. A lifted vehicle presents a challenge for towing a lot of trailers. Many trailers are too low for a lifted vehicle. I have a special dropped receiver hitch. Ideally a lifted trailer may be the best idea.

Personally I do not like dropped tranfer cases.  n*  Lifting the Jeep suspension for increased clearance and dropping the transfer case has always seemed counter productive to me. But sometimes unavoidable. Someplace I have photos of my CJ sitting on a rock under the t-case skid plate. Most embarrassing! That won a special award for me from my 4wd club.  :-[  It would teeter back and forth, never getting enough of a tire grip on the ground to drive itself off.

However, it is true that something must be done do get the driveshaft angles into the realm of being correct. A vehicle like the XJ can be lifted to 3 inches in most cases before special measures be taken. There is danger of the stock slip yoke slipping out of the rear of the t-case with more lift. I've been witness to the mess it makes when the oil in the case follows the slip yoke onto the ground. (not me, someone else)

My special measures included a (Novak?) slip yoke replacement for the transfer case. I got this from Tom Wood's Custom Driveshafts along with a custom driveshaft with a front CV joint. This allows the t-case to remain in it's factory position. The rear axle requires the pinion to be tilted upwards. The amount varies with the amount of lift. Tom Woods included a simple plastic gauge to measure the angle required. Shims slip in between the axle spring pad and the spring. Do NOT get aluminum shims. Eventually they break.

I also have a custom t-case skid plate and a transmission, engine oil pan skid plate. I started with items from Skid Row and modified the t-case plate so it sits up tighter, but not too tight.

Viewed from the right side, the skid plates are at the same height at the lowest part of the exhaust...

(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/djmbucket/vehicles/mini-P1030667.jpg)

Viewed from the left side, pretty much at "eye level" with the skid plates...

(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/djmbucket/vehicles/mini-P1030670.jpg)

Viewed from left, from ground level looking up...

(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/djmbucket/vehicles/mini-P1030672.jpg)

The front skid plate laps over the leading edge of the t-case skid plate. The rocker skid mounts are also visible. 3/8 steel paltes were welded to the "frame" The mount holes are drilled and tapped and the rocker skids bolt onto the welded plates. Nothing is lower than the 3/16 plate that is bolted to the stock crossmember.

I'm not a fan of add-a-leafs either which is why I added a leaf....wait a minute.....

Actually, I actually added a leaf  ??? meaning that my spring pack has 6 leafs rather then the usual 5 that Old Man Emu (OME) sends out.  But I tow things.

I'd rather do what Don did/suggested and it was my first choice but necessity and $$$ forced me to seek out the local XJ guru's :D  Since then I've not felt they were wrong!  Indeed, I'm VERY happy.  But I can pull a trailer with a 300+ tongue weight and the sag in the rear despite the added spring leaf drops the tail of the XJ down down down to the 31's.  Luckily, though, it's 'usually'  d* not too low!!!

The reason I mentioned the Rubicon (and other) 4.5" lifts is actually because they have a heavier spring rate to provide greater stability at that ride height while the OME 3" springs are actually quite soft (and comfy, not to mention seriously articulating).  So I'd imagine a 4.5" spring pack would handle the tongue weight better then my 3.5" one.

Did you (Don) remove the rear anti-sway bar?  Usually guys do but for towing it's actually better (when towing more weight like I do) to keep it on so mine's in place.

Glenn -- I'll get a pic of a buddies 2" lifted ZJ for ya :)  Quite amazing really because it looked like a 4" lift!!!

Side note:  I don't have a truck so for those who won't build without one (ok I'd LIKE one mind you and lament not having one) it isn't too bad as long as you can tow.

I picked up just a tick over 1000lbs of lumber and such from Home Depot on Wednesday last week and stuck it on my 1800lbs trailer and headed off to the hills.  We were pushing the limits (max is 1200lbs) but the XJ hauled it up into the mountains without so much as complaining.

However, it would be nice to not have to tow EVERY time I needed lumber.

A: rear anti-sway bar. I tied it without it but its lack is noticeable when (a) towing and (b) when carrying a roof top load. I dropped the body/chassis mount position 1.25 inches with a couple square steel tube spacers. Not sure if that helps the bar but theory says it should move through a better range. I can not say that I notice any problems in any off road use.

Also I tossed the Rubicon front disconnects after struggling with them a couple times. I have JKS Quicker Disconnects.

The solution to the need to tow the trailer for almost everything may be resolved with a roof rack. Not the factory roof rack; it is a joke.

I built mine from 1x1 and 3/4x3/4    0.062 wall steel tubing. It has done an admirable job. I have carried something like 50 twelve foot 2x6's on it with no damage to anything. Of course that's one reason I like the rear sway bar to be installed and active. That load was also around town on paved roads. I would not haul that to the cabin.

The load is carried by the roof edge drip rail. You can see I removed the stock rack and sold it.

(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/djmbucket/vehicles/mini-P1030676.jpg)

(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/djmbucket/vehicles/mini-P1030677.jpg)

I originally sized it to carry gas cans and camping gear. That bar on the top is used to lock my Rubbermaid gas cans in place. It's removable. I use a siphon tube to transfer gas down to the Jeep tank. 

For long lumber I built a bar using the same mount system. I can mount that if needed on the front edge of the roof. The load sticks out the back some when centered but was never a problem. If traveling on rough roads I use loop style ratchet straps to bind each overhang together.

To just carry lumber the upper rails would not be needed.

Got my transmission linkage sorted out after studying various pix and descriptions and drawings and knowing how it should work to help figure the pix etc. out.  There was a spring pulling the wrong way on the bottom and none on the top - looks like the boys didn't understand all of it when they put it back together either.  Renter OH'd the engine.

Also found that the trans shop had overtightened the front band causing drag in reverse as well as a bit in first.  It was set at 1 1/2 turns and the book calls for 2 1/2 turns.  Reverse is a bit draggy but doable now.  I have kickdown at the proper places going up hills etc now.

Getting better one problem at a time.

(https://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af102/emcvay/Cabin-09-20-09038.jpg)
You can also get the rear bumper rack like I have here -- it helps loads.

However -- DO NOT buy a crappy Yakima rack.  You will spend LOTS of $$$ and wish you hadn't.  I can't seem to find it a new home either but intend someday to get a much nicer rack or have one made.

But somethings just can't be done in a rack or racks and that's what trailers are for :)

Glad I read more on the distributor upgrade.  Looks like the cheap ones eat cams regularly.

Info and options here including an upgrade info for the stock Motorcraft.

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/jeep/HEIcompair.html

I thought I would resurrect this old thread. I hope you don't mind the distraction but I'm quite excited about my truck rebuild while the cabin is buried in snow.
Can't wait to drive it around the land when its complete.  I hate rust so to date the whole frame, firewall, radiator/headlight panel, door frames, rear box frames and hood frames are hot dipped galvanized.  The skins of the bodywork are aluminum. 

(https://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/roverlarry/My%20Rover/07overallfrontleft.jpg)


(https://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/roverlarry/My%20Rover/11dashleft.jpg)
There won't be any vinyl on this dashboard.

I remember this. I see the wheels have wheels, dollys. 

 [cool]

There's not enough there for me to decide:  Is that a Jeep or a Scout?

Erin. look at his member name.... Rover.....  Land Rover, an oldie

Yup
MountainDon is correct.  Its a Land Rover, 1965.  I've had it for almost 20 years. 

Now that never even crossed my mind.  lol  d*
I've never seen a LR in real life...

The back end there, though, do you see it?  That looks like a Scout to me, but off a little...
And the radiator/headlights were completely messing me up, but I figured it's just because there was too much missing at the moment!  

here

(https://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/roverlarry/My%20Rover/01beforestart.jpg)

(https://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/roverlarry/My%20Rover/06newchassiswithaxles.jpg)

I own a couple of 4x4 vehicles and like to get them dirty, but the one that is always used to get up to our mountain property is our jeep Cherokee. The reason 1. it always can 2. It is not so expensive I am afraid to beat it up (truck and all mods for me under $6k) 3. I have tried others and had to use the Cherokee to get them out. It is a little built but nothing crazy really. it has a lift runs 35' mud terrains for the clearance (better articulation with 33's for rocks) is locked front and rear, has a 4:1 transfer case conversion with slip yoke eliminator, the axles have been re-geared. It still manages to maintain 20+ mpg to get me there and back so it is my natural choice.
(https://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/davidstowe/100_0439.jpg)

(https://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/davidstowe/100_0438.jpg)

20 mpg?  I couldn't get that on my stock Cherokee.  Impressive.

Technically with the 35's I should be running 4.88 to 1 gear ratio in the axles but because of the 4:1 transfer case I run 4.56 to 1 ratio it works like an overdrive but off road has no issues that I have found to date

My '01 5 speed cherokee used to get 23 on the highway but I can't seem to get over 18.5mpg in the Road Warrior (98 with 3" lift and 31's with 4.10:1's)...I'd love to get more out of it but haven't found the right recipe yet.