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General => General Forum => Topic started by: Rock Knocker on February 14, 2018, 03:15:03 PM

Title: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 14, 2018, 03:15:03 PM
Hello, I just found this site and I've got a whole list of questions about building a cabin.

I plan on building a cordwood house, I don't have plans written up yet but I would like something with right around 800sq.ft. main floor and then a loft for a main bedroom with a guest bedroom and bathroom under the loft.

My biggest questions are about wood prep and building this house to be able to hook up to electric and septic in the future. I plan on using Poplar wood for the cordwood and mostly maple for any posts and beams I may need to build a loft or other structural purposes.

I was wondering how long the wood should be dried for before starting the project or if there are any ways to speed up the drying process.

I would like the house to have a water hook up from a well and down the road worry about septic and electric but in the building process I would like to do all I can to make the septic and electric hook up as smooth as possible.

Right now I have so many questions I can hardly keep them all straight, so any advise on house/cabin building will be welcome.

I am also certainly no house designer, I have ideas in my head but getting them safely into a cabin is something else, if anyone knows if I can find small cabin designs to look up that would be great too.

And thanks for letting me on the forum, I look forward to learning a bit about building my own cabin. Thanks!
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: MountainDon on February 14, 2018, 05:32:54 PM
 w*

I would begin by contacting the building and zoning departments for the area you want to build in. Septic rules may be handled by the state or possibly a more local level authority. That goes for the well permit process as well. Where I am (NM) the state building department does have rules / guidelines in place for non conventional construction such as cordwood, straw bale, rammed earth and pumice concrete. Friends have done straw bale and a pumice concrete home. Whatever rules and regulations are in effect should be known before even planning much. This is a very labor intensive process so I would want to be certain about what is permitted, what is required, before spending much time on planning, preparation and construction.

Drying time will likely be a year or so. The better the wood is dried the less shrinkage you will have.

The bark is more easily removed immediately after felling the trees. The more sap that is present the better. When freshly cut the sap acts like a lubricant, after a week or two the sap acts more like glue.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 14, 2018, 07:58:13 PM
Poplar can be a confusing term on the net, referring to either aspen or tulip poplar. In either case I don't believe it would be a good choice, they both rot readily and have high shrinkage. Our tulip poplar tends to open up a large seasoning check as it dries. Your mention of maple makes me guess that is the poplar you are referring to. If you have black locust or one of the cedars available I think it would do better, they are naturally decay resistant and have lower shrinkage. In my state structural wood has to be graded, something to ask the building official about in your pre construction meeting as well as how he would like to see the wiring done.

I'll add a little wood tech to expand on what Mt Don said about bark. In late spring through most of the summer the cambium, the layer of cells at the junction between bark and wood, is actively dividing. When a cambium cell divides one half of the division becomes wood, the other half becomes bark. During that season of active growth the bark "slips" and is very easily peeled. Around here that is when tulip poplar bark is harvested for siding and cherry bark is harvested for medicinal uses. Up north that is when birch bark was taken for canoes and berry baskets. It is also a time to be more careful when harvesting and moving timber in the woods because it is very easy to knock the bark off of trees if you bump them with a log. As the days shorten and the weather dries the tree growth slows and the bark is again "tight" on the tree.

I would soak the cordwood in a borate solution when debarked and still green. It has very low mammalian toxicity and will help with decay and wood eating insects. Good luck!
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 14, 2018, 08:57:57 PM
Thanks for some of the tips, when I say poplar I believe what is around here in abundance is quaking aspen. The maple trees are tall and straight growing in a forest and would mostly be used for indoor structural stuff for a loft and stairs.

I've read good things about poplar for its insulation value but didn't look into bugs. There are also a lot of plantation pines growing in this area, I forget exactly what pines they are but when I looked into it last year the poplar and pines were rated high for insulation value and they are practically given away in this area, central Minnesota.

I am about to start dealing with the city and county, that's why I'm trying to get my ducks in a row.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 14, 2018, 11:06:30 PM
Thanks for location, yup your poplar, or popple, is aspen. I'd bail on that, not so much for bugs but for its rapid decay. The pines are probably Red (Norway) pine, or White pine, you probably have Jack pine there as well. I'd take any of those over the aspen. The red is probably the greatest shrinkage but also the most durable of those. You can overcome lower insulation value with thickness, I'm sure you know conductivity is greatest in wood along the grain, the way you are using it, so thick walls. To be honest infiltration is probably the greater problem with cordwood construction, drafts around log movement. If you don't keep a handle on infiltration, insulation doesn't matter. Seasoning is key there. Wood in my house this time of year is bottoming out around 7-8% moisture content inside with the heat going. More like 12% outside under cover with ambient air. That is what you'll get down to in a stack under a shed roof with plenty of airflow in a year or so. Wood is always changing moisture content and so dimension in response to the relative humidity of its surroundings.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: hpinson on February 15, 2018, 12:07:59 AM
Agree. Poplar or Aspen will rot, wet or dry, and disintegrate very quickly. Hopefully something more durable is available. Maple or oak (hardwoods) would be great.  Pine would be OK if you used preservative diligently - same challenges as log cabins, except you have end-grain exposed more.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 15, 2018, 12:18:35 AM
The plantation pines around here I believe are the Red pine. Good to know I should ditch the aspens. I would like to keep insulation up but if I went with maple and oak for the cordwood would I get other benefits? Or is there another particular wood I should look for? Black locust I know nothing of but I may be able to find some cedar, I may know a large plantation of them I can access in Wisconsin but to cut and haul all that may be cheaper to buy something locally.

How thick of walls would you recommend? I read 16-24" was common, I could go larger.

Edit: Just saw your post hpinson after I put this up. If I go with oak or maple how much insulation do you think I would be losing over cedar or red pine?

Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 15, 2018, 07:35:20 AM
The downside to most hardwoods is the shrinkage, or moisture related movement. That is why cordwood builders typically use softwoods. Locust is an exception due to the high extractives content, it's exposed movement is low enough that it was used for insulator pins inside the old glass telephone pole insulators. Cedar would be a good choice as well.
By maple I'm guessing red maple, which oaks do you have? Both are potential rafter material as well.

Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: hpinson on February 15, 2018, 10:54:06 AM
Have you read any of the Rob Roy books on this type of construction?

http://cordwoodmasonry.com/books-media/

I'm pretty sure he has a lot to say on this topic. I think he is still doing workshops too.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 15, 2018, 11:11:36 AM
I haven't read any of his books yet but I did watch a couple videos he made. I will have to get some of those books ordered.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: kbaum on February 15, 2018, 12:15:35 PM
Depending on your location, I would contact your local Natural Resources Conservation Service, this is a USDA agency that deals with the conservation of your land.  You can google them and find a office close to you.  They will assist you in finding a county or state forester in your area that could look at your trees and give you recommendations on the species of trees that you want to cut down and harvest for your walls.   
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 15, 2018, 02:19:20 PM
I talked to the home inspector and it sounds like he will nearly be my neighbor when I build this place. They put my mind at ease some, he said there was another cordwood home in the area put up some years ago and it went through fine. I will need to have a submit a septic plan with the house plans but I will have 2 years to get the septic in, that's a significant weight off my shoulders and they are pretty lax about well and electric.

So I'm on the hunt for wood. I'm calling around looking for cedar, hardwoods are a back up and i know I can find plenty of that.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 15, 2018, 07:48:05 PM
I'm assuming you mean the building inspector, a home inspector is one of those real estate inspection... sharks. Did you happen to ask him what species was used in that home. It would probably be worth visiting them and having a conversation as well.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 15, 2018, 11:05:12 PM
You are correct about the building inspector, I didn't ask him what type of wood was used, he said the building inspector before him was the one that knew more about it. And yes I am sure I will be in touch with them quite often.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 15, 2018, 11:16:30 PM
I am also curious about the wood in the cordwood walls shrinking and expanding with the moisture level. If I did build with kiln dried wood at a low moisture level would I have to worry about the wood expanding with enough force to damage the cement between the logs, like water freezing in a pipe?
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: MountainDon on February 15, 2018, 11:48:55 PM
Curiosity makes me ask... Other than the fact that a cordwood house can be attractive to look at, may make use of trees from one's own property, and the challenge and sense of pride of doing something different or unconventional, what is the reason for deciding on cordwood walls?  Just curious, because to myself it seems like more effort and time than I care for, as well as presenting challenges to air and weather sealing, electrical, plumbing and air movement handling runs,  and possibly more continual maintenance than other methods.  Just curious.

If at all possible it would be worth the time to be able to talk with the other cordwood builder in the area.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 16, 2018, 07:54:54 AM
Wood is never completely dimensionally stable, you can witness this in doors and drawers that stick during high humidity and rattle loosely during periods of low humidity. It is always trying to reach an equilibrium moisture content with its surroundings. You have a moving material wrapped by a brittle unyielding material that has great compressive strength and zero tensile strength. If the wood expands the mortar goes into tension.

Andrew posted a short video of a beautiful cordwood home his sister built;
https://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=14833.0

Getting way out there, there is a hysteresis, lagging, effect associated with that. Wood approaches the theoretical emc but never quite attains it. If you approach emc from the dry side the wood tends to be a percent or two drier than emc, if you approach it from the wet side it tends to be a percent or two wetter than emc. So, I would agree in that sense it may be a little better to start with kd wood. If the very dry wood meets moisture, say from rain or even wet mortar it is going to expand. If it starts a little too wet and dries, you will have gaps to caulk or perma-chink but the mortar is unstressed. In other words to an extent you are marrying incompatible materials. Not helping I know just stuff to think about.

From your handle, do you have stone on site? That would be a more durable wall.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: hpinson on February 16, 2018, 11:51:42 AM
Don, my answer would be that it just has a certain appeal. They are interesting structures, and if done well, are nice places to live. I visited one once and thought it was just wonderful - organic and comfortable.  Lots of technical problems to surmount though, no doubt.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 16, 2018, 12:05:30 PM
The two largest factors for choosing cordwood is the fact that I can build it and it's relatively cheap. Plus it's beautiful, economic and be just what I want to live in. I have no interests in buying, working with or even living in modern building materials.

I turned 32 last month and I'm in the best shape of my life and I am self employed working with horses around the area. I'm selling my house in town and buying some acreage with nothing on it, so once I sell I am completely committed to building my own home, there's no other option. Along with working for myself I have some low paying part time jobs to cover all my bills, once I get rid of my mortgage I can leave the part time jobs and work on my house when I don't have work lined up for myself. Without a mortgage I will be able to make a very livable wage out of 10 hours of work a week, the rest of my time will be building a home.   

So while a cordwood house may be time consuming and present some unique challenges I will have the time to deal with them and figure it out, I would rather deal with these challenges than the challenges of paying a dozen different bills and running around working all over the place.

So would you say the safest way to go about building this and addressing leaks would be to use partially dried wood(not kiln dried) then let the walls settle for a season then calk or permachink around the logs or start out with kiln dried?

And about the rocks, I haven't given it much of a thought. It may be possible, about every farm field around here has a stack of boulders stacked up on one of its corners.  What kind of wall thickness would be best for around MN?
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 16, 2018, 01:19:10 PM
I'm also trying to think outside the box a little to prevent air leaks. I used to work for a large company that built playground parts and they purchased a company that was making playground floor surfaces. Their product was rubber beads mixed with an epoxy, very durable but also flexible.

I was wondering how much something flexible like that would help to seal small gaps when the wood shrinks and expands. I would clearly need the regular cement for strength but maybe a thin layer on the inside of the wall, against the cement would help. Even if I got a whole bunch of those little foam beads that are usually pressed together to make a foam board and pressed a layer of the beads against the wet cement on the interior of the wall next to the logs.

Just thinking out loud...
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: MountainDon on February 16, 2018, 04:08:24 PM
Quote from: Rock Knocker on February 16, 2018, 12:05:30 PM
The two largest factors for choosing cordwood is the fact that I can build it and it's relatively cheap. Plus it's beautiful, economic and be just what I want to live in.

Thanks. I was simply curious.  I do like the appearance but just personally balk at the amount of labor involved, and again, personally, don't feel like inventing the wheel for details like dealing with wood shrinkage, air infiltration etc.  I am no wheres close to being an expert on this.  If and whenever I can contribute an idea or thought I will.

The building my friends built with cordwood is used as a small equipment shed and a pottery hobby space. It is mostly not airtight but they did not try to make it so. The workshop room that is draft free was made that way using an air barrier and boards nailed to the walls inside.



Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 16, 2018, 05:56:07 PM
No problem asking.

While this is my my largest undertaking to date it is just the kind of project I can sink into and finish. There's also the fact that I will be homeless, living in a tent or renting until it's done so there will be plenty of incentive and like I mentioned, time.

I am open to other building options but the options I've found like straw bale or bagged dirt don't have me too interested. A traditional log home would be nice too but I think I would need more machinery to complete and I would end up with similar downfalls and less insulation. Building with boulders would be pretty neat too. Besides not worrying about shrinkage what are some pros and cons to building with rocks?
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: NathanS on February 17, 2018, 09:13:33 AM
A rock wall is proven to last hundreds, even thousands, of years. They will outlast even the most fancy modern poured concrete walls that rely on metal for their strength and plastic patented systems that the manufacturer says you have to use.

The problem with mortar and stone is that it has an r-value of close to zero. In cold climates that is definitely a problem.

I would want to talk to someone with candor that has lived in a cordwood house for at least a few years in a cold and wet climate. I would put a huge overhang all the way around the house. 1 story with a wrap around porch, sky lights or something to let some light in.

The mortar between the logs will undermine the r-value of the wood. You really would want to cement the outside of the logs in, and fill the middle with insulation. Rock wool insulation would probably do really well there.

Just one other piece of advice is to give yourself every chance to succeed. Building a house alone is a lot of work, mentally more than physically, and if at the end of the day I had to go back to a tent in a Minnesota winter... I'm not sure I could endure that.

I was just looking at a 5 gallon pail filled with masonry tools yesterday.. trowels, knives, mixers, floats... there could be $200 of that crap in there. Hard to budget for that stuff. Some people on the internet give the impression that their trowels are free and the mortar grows on trees. The details, amount of mortar, etc that goes into a cordwood wall would be worth calculating out. It may cost the same, marginally less, possibly more, than a typical stick framed wall.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 17, 2018, 03:28:00 PM
Cordwood is similar to double wythe masonry in that there is an interior and exterior "shell" of masonry and a gap between that can be insulated. The wythes are bonded to one another periodically so that they act as a unit. Insulation is the tough part with stone masonry but pretty much the same as the mortar of cordwood there. There would be a "skin" of masonry on one or both faces with insulation in the middle of the sandwich. Uncoursed "rubblestone" needs to be a minimum of 16" thick. Massive stone walls on the interior with insulation outside of that and then whatever exterior finish was desired would provide quite a bit of thermal storage. You will need some type of foundation, that might be a good place to give stonework a try.

We've talked about walls, probably the easiest part of the structure. You will need some way to make the rest of the structure, the beams, floors, interior framing and other woodwork, if you are doing that yourself. An Alaskan chainsaw mill is about the cheapest way to get into that end of things. Slow but effective, a painfully slow way to make boards but ok for beams. I used one this past year fairly extensively, we needed to make some very large timbers for a log barn project that were beyond the capabilities of our other sawmills, we turned out up to 60' 12x12" timbers. The rafters on that were logs with one side flattened. Harvesting timber and hiring a mobile sawmill is another good way. Even though I own a mill I've called in a mobile bandmill on jobs where it made more sense.

One way to take a longer view, at 32 you are indeed at the physical prime of life. I was building this house about then. We also travelled the country building and living in a camper. Even that gets old in harsh winter. When you are building you are out all day, having somewhere to recharge is pretty important. We set up an 8x12 shack here during construction, it is now a storage building. As you build think forward perhaps 50-60 years. The ideal structure hopefully won't require high maintenance at that point. This is an opportunity to set that housing security up, while you have the abilities. One way might be a post and beam structure with cordwood infill. If the cordwood fails or fails in places hopefully the structure itself will be unaffected and repairs would be easier vs having to start over. All just stuff to think about.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: hpinson on February 18, 2018, 08:10:49 PM
I seem to remember that Rob Roy was advocating the double wythe construction method you describe in a video I watched somewhat recently.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 18, 2018, 10:31:09 PM
I am planning on the double wythe cordwood, I haven't decided if I want to use sawdust for insulation like I've seen used the most or fiberglass. Any other good ideas for insulation in the walls?

I was pricing out Alaskan chainsaw mills the other day, I might be able to borrow one also. If I borrow one just to cut a post and beam frame it wont be too bad. I've used one before to cut boards but that was out of some soft pine, considering I will certainly need boards for the roof and also for the floor if I put a second floor loft in, I may need to have something better come out.

A post and beam structure does sound like the way to go, the wood for posts will be harder to come by than the cordwood for walls but I do want this building over engineered, I'm picturing large posts and thick walls. The second floor loft isn't set in stone yet but if it does happen I would like some large round tree trunks for vertical and horizontal supports, I was originally thinking of round logs for the post and beams also but I think I like sharp looks of the square beams on the exterior better and I'm sure they would be easier to work with.

A second floor is a whole nother ball of wax. Would it work out to use (let me figure out how to say this) long logs horizontally that have each end tied into the cordwood wall, then put boards on those logs for a floor? That's kind of a vague description of what I'm thinking.

I do want this house to last and be very solid.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 18, 2018, 11:18:21 PM
Actually I was envisioning the post and beam exposed on the interior of the ~2' thick walls, protected by the cordwood on the exterior. Still inset into the walls on the interior. In other words shorter pieces of cordwood outside the posts and beams as it wraps around them... keeping the frame dry.

If the posts have a beam on top of them, a top plate, then the log joists can be supported easily on top of that plate beam. The post and beam frame carries the loads and the cordwood is non structural infill. If there are failures in the cordwood wall that section can be knocked out and replaced easily without needing to somehow support any load bearing frame members during that process. Basically build the frame right up through roofing it, then drop back and infill it. Once under roof you are working in the dry.

I would let the cordwood act as the bracing, with it infilling in between the posts they aren't going to rack or sway in the least. You would of course need temporary bracing of the frame until the infill is in place, X bracing across the exterior sides of the posts, removed a section at a time as you infill.

For insulation, sawdust sounds more like food for something, I suppose you could borate it also. I've seen it settle majorly when used in old buildings in the stud bays. I'm just winging ideas here, have you thought about a very lean Portland/perlite or vermiculite mix, sort of a hypertufa... not a clue what the R values would be.

Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 19, 2018, 01:51:11 PM
Ok, I was thinking about the posts on the inside also, if that is the case I would like round logs for posts, but I have come across a lot of pictures of cordwood houses with square beams outside, I like the looks of that also.

I just found pictures of both examples, most cordwood pictures aren't from the inside so I can't tell how many have post and beam inside.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4741/40319076342_fdd246088a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24qRNGE)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4650/39467384345_873f112943_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/238AEkT)

I'm nor familiar with portland/perlite but I will look into it. The vermiculite or something similar is a great idea, I should have thought of that.

Edit: Once I looked up perlite I know exactly what it is, I will look into R values.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 24, 2018, 06:35:28 PM
Well it looks like I found a good deal on 15 cords of 2 year dried white cedar with the bark still on.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 24, 2018, 07:50:41 PM
I'm trying to figure out roughly how much wood I am going to need.

If I have a 20'x30' footprint and 24" thick walls standing about 8' with about 25% mortar, how much wood is that. Of course there are going to be doors and window going in also but I am thinking about having around 15' of 30' raised higher to fit a loft. Also the possibility of exposed posts taking up some wall space.

Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: hpinson on February 24, 2018, 09:37:37 PM
Perlite and Vermiculite here:

http://www.schundler.com/const.htm

Wasn't Vermiculite the material that was full of asbestos and caused so many problems when used as insulation. It is different when stabilized in concrete?
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 24, 2018, 10:03:23 PM
I read something about the asbestos in vermiculite but I don't know if that has changed recently. I was leaning more towards the perlite.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 25, 2018, 07:53:46 AM
It has been a long time since I remember that making construction news, I'm thinking 20+ years. Vermiculite is heat expanded mica. Asbestos is basically the gemstone tiger eye. From what I remember there was a mine that had some amount of asbestos in with the mica. A lot had been used and so there was significant remediation. That facility was shut down. One of my jobs as a kid was to pour the cores of foundation blockwork full of vermiculite. I've not messed with it since more than a bagfull or two. It is dusty but I seriously doubt there is an asbestos problem with the product now. I think you are working from old memory or reading old reports. I'm not trying to sway one way or the other just tending to dismiss what I think is unneccesary prejudice unless you are seeing something different/ more current.

A cord is 4'x4'x8' roughly. The length of the firewood would then play a big role in how much surface area is covered. If it is 16" wood it would cover roughly 100 sf, if 24 only about 64 sf. Footprint is not what you need, here square footage of wall area is. Do make sure you are talking about the same cord with the supplier, a face cord or rick is 4x8x 1 stick deep, typically firewood is 16" so a face cord is generally ~1/3 of a cord. I would not deduct for anything and then round up 10-15%.

Just as an aside, one story I've heard is that conventional stud framing evolved to be 16" on center because of that firewood length, you could split plaster lath from straight pieces of firewood.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 25, 2018, 10:18:52 AM
What I was reading about asbestos in vermiculite had to do with cleaning old vermiculite out of attics so I'm sure there is no where near the same risk now. 

I'm going with 24" thick walls. The white cedar I found is whole trees minus the limbs, dried for two years. I've got to meet the guy to see exactly what I am dealing with and work out a price, when I asked how much he had he said "about a semi trailer load around 15 cords." He is a tree guy so I am hoping he is pretty close to correct. I have no idea what cords of cedar are going for but he said he would give me a good deal for all of it, have any idea what I should  offer?

As for figuring out the amount of wood I need 25'x35' gives me 875sq. ft. A simple rectangular shape. (I wrote a different measurement earlier) A guy on another site helped a bit, with 25'x35' and 9' walls containing 25% mortar he was saying would need 13 cords.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 25, 2018, 12:12:10 PM
Around here in that form in hardwood it would be worth $5-600 delivered, you unload the log trailer of the trees, in other words a piece of equipment at the site. If he is delivering on a semi trailer you need a logger's knuckleboom , large tractor with forks, all terrain forklift or similar there. His bunks you need to lift over will be around 12' tall. As firewood I wouldn't give a plug nickel for cedar but that is my prejudice living in hardwood firewood country. check craigslist etc. this isn't nicely cut and split firewood, those firewood dealer prices do not apply, this is bulk non sawtimber cleanup stuff, it is what those firewood processors buy. It has a fair market value but it is not high. Figure that all out with him it may be a completely different situation than what I just described. Do expect much higher waste for your use out of that load but it also opens up the opportunity that post material is in there as well. So I doubt it is all you need but he might be a good contact. the waste will burn as firewood so it is not really waste, you're just getting warts and all  :D

Just smushed my finger under a log on the sawmill while turning, all taped up and its about quit thumping, back to the fun  :D
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 25, 2018, 01:23:32 PM
I figured it would get me real close. That 13 cord for that size house doesn't account for windows and doors ether but I was also hoping to have a slightly higher section in the rear to accommodate a loft. As for posts and beams I am still anticipating on buying them separate, but I do have access to a lot of maple trees I would love to use, the problem is that they are fresh and haven't been cut. Would I run into the same problems if I used green maple posts as I would using green wood for the cordwood? I don't know if wood shrinkage makes as big of a deal length wise.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 25, 2018, 05:23:15 PM
Lengthwise shrinkage is negligible in normal wood but if inset into the wall, same shrinkage issues along the sides. Not sure what you ended up planning. The cedar is decay resistant, maple is not. Maple is an indoor wood The sapwood of all species is non durable.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 25, 2018, 05:44:32 PM
Good to know. I was thinking about have the posts inside anyways, I like the look of the posts exposed to the outside but it sounds better to have them inside.

If I use the maple I cut I will be milling it also. What size posts are recommended? I'm planning on having larger than necessary but what's the minimum? 

I will have to cut trees to start the project anyways so I suppose I could mill the beams first thing. Maybe it would be worth my effort to build a small temporary shelter for the fresh beams with a dehumidifier? I will have plenty of work to do before working with all the wood, maybe I could get them at least half way dry.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 26, 2018, 08:08:56 AM
For posts in the lengths we're talking about I don't go below 6x6. A rule of thumb might be good here... posts fail in two ways, a short fat post fails in compression, by being crushed. A tall slender post fails by buckling, bowing out sideways. If an unbraced post is 1" thick for every foot of height in the least dimension then all you need to worry about is compression. To say that more simply an 8x8x8' tall isn't going to buckle it only needs to be checked for compression. As it becomes taller or more slender then buckling is also a consideration. Watch notching though. I was looking at a barn the other day where some posts are in distress. All that said posts rarely fail in our realm. Beams are where to sharpen your pencil. This is my heavy timber calc (a heavy timber is defined as 5x5 or larger);
http://timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/beamclc06b.htm
more calcs including columns (posts) here;
timbertoolbox.com
Use mixed maple unless you know you have red maple (if you do know you have red and are using that exclusively it does have higher strength values) Stick to #2 unless it is very good material and you know more about grading. Do not juice the numbers to make something work and avoid the temptation to use a bad timber, be dispassionate even if it costs you another trip to the woods, this is where failures occur most often, be honest in assessing the timbers and in your math. Holler with questions, I'll check in tonite, I probably just threw you into the deep end of the pool  :D
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 26, 2018, 01:28:12 PM
I understand the buckling but the compression has me a little confused. I should worry about a short fat post being compromised by compression?  ??? Is that an issue that comes up if all the weight on the post isn't evenly distributed, and the areas with weight start compressing into the top of the post?

I was thinking of at least 10"x10" posts no taller than 9' possibly larger depending on the logs I have to work with.

I used to work in a machine shop too, I could make custom brackets and weld up anything I would need. I could possibly make some caps with holes drilled in them to mount on top of all my posts, then I could still use lag bolts to attach wood to wood but have the steel help evenly distribute weight.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: SouthernTier on February 26, 2018, 03:01:42 PM
Replying only because I looked into this for a column in my design (and so Don can correct me if I am wrong).  But a short fat column won't necessarily get crushed, it's just that that is the most likely way it will fail with too high a load.  Taller columns can fail by crushing, too, but also by buckling.

Crushing just means the load exceeds the compressive strength parallel to the grain.  You can look up those values for various species here: http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/nds/AWC-NDS2018-Supplement-ViewOnly-171027.pdf  Note, the listed strengths need to be modified by design value adjustment factors.  One of those, for columns, is the stability factor, which can be calculated according to section 3.7 of http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/nds/AWC-NDS2018-ViewOnly-171117.pdf   That stability adjustment factor only really starts to be significant when you approach Don's rule of thumb.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 26, 2018, 07:44:22 PM
well said  :) Actually when the post and beam are wood of similar strength the side grain crushing of the beam is what I check, the post end grain can bit into the beam side grain.
Your 10x10 will carry any reasonable load, it'll actually carry a pretty unreasonable one just fine...curious, checking, edit ... in mixed maple around 29,000 lbs, in red maple around 36,000 lbs. They aren't going to be an issue.

Do bear in mind we've now encroached on the exterior footprint nearly 6 feet to the inside of the posts, lay out that interior space and make sure everything fits.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 26, 2018, 08:09:47 PM
Yes I was thinking about the walls and posts reaching inside quite a bit as well, this isn't a huge deal considering I can use the posts to put up shelves and work counter tops around them. I was also thinking about having the posts recessed into the walls a little ways, put up the posts and leave 16"-18" for the cordwood on the outside of the posts. I think the loss of insulation would be small but would it cause moisture issues?

I also have access to an oak tree trunk already cut down that would be a post makers dream(or nightmare cutting it). It's about 20' long and 3' across at it's smallest point, it must have grown in the middle of a well established forest because it's straight as an arrow with very little limbs cut off. I was thinking about using that if I make a loft section and decide to go with taller than 9' walls, or use it anywhere that may need a little more strength.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 26, 2018, 09:22:24 PM
Or live edge slab it and build in counters, table, shelves, seating, etc. We just put a couple of big slabs in the kiln last Monday out of a similar sized red oak. They will be the office tops. There's a big crotched walnut slab in there for a table as well. The farm I'm working on now has been in that family for over a century, there is some nice timber that keeps our creative juices going.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: MountainDon on February 26, 2018, 09:40:05 PM
Where's the "drool" emoticon when you need it?
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 26, 2018, 09:59:36 PM
Hopefully not too far OT for a minute. Big wood is fun. One of the guys just sent a link to a blog post he put up yesterday, at the bottom of that post it shows 3 of the walnut slabs going into the kiln. If you sit on the home page the top pic scrolls, one of those shows the other Don slabbing the big red oak out at the farm.
https://www.logjamva.com/

I don't think embedding the posts will cause a moisture problem. The cordwood would be more likely to conduct cold to the interior or to have a breach.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 26, 2018, 10:44:38 PM
I just about wrung my buddies neck when he said he lost track of some burl we cut down about 5 years ago.  We cut down a chunk of birds eye maple that was around 4' and almost perfectly round and around 16' of the most burled up black walnut tree trunk I have ever seen.

He has since become a dumping ground for a couple arborists  in the area and the burl could be anywhere, it would be like finding a needle in a hay stack and it's likely covered with tons of wood.  d*
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 28, 2018, 05:11:12 PM
So I've got a decent idea of wood needed for the cordwood walls, mortar and insulation.

What I have no idea about is the post and beam layout. Do you guys know any good resources to find a good layout or a good way to come up with a decent layout myself?

Right now I am planning on 25'x35' layout with 15' of the 35' raised to accommodate a loft spanning across the 25' width.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 28, 2018, 07:55:01 PM
Paper and pencil is a good place to start. There are many house plans on the net.
You are planning on 2 different wall heights and roof planes?
At 25' wide count on midspan support of the loft. All depending on roof structure lining that support under the ridge so you can support a ridge beam might be a good idea. The foundation needs to be thick enough to support the cordwood and posts.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on February 28, 2018, 08:06:47 PM
Don't laugh too hard, I just spent a couple minutes sketching this up to get an estimate of how much wood the windows and door would displace, it's far from complete.

This is about what I would make in a perfect world, but at this stage I am trying to aim a little high even if I come short.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4649/39834874494_7e1e749904_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23G59mW)
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on February 28, 2018, 10:00:36 PM
Doodling..

(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/cordwood2.jpg)

Hmmm, that didn't seem to work. the corrected wall height isn't getting through. well at least for me. I'll try that again later
edit again; there it is, renamed the file, dang caches  d*
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on March 01, 2018, 12:10:19 AM
Well it looks like you're quite a bit better than me with paper and pencil.

You've got the right idea. I'm having trouble visualizing how a staircase is going to get worked in. First I was thinking I wanted a straight staircase along one of the walls(washer&dryer under) but then I figured I might run into problems with head room under the lower ceiling. I am now thinking about a spiral or switchback stair case in the center under the tallest part of the lower ceiling.

Another issue is the roofing, I was thinking about the living grass roof(I've heard good things) but I would need a roof with a significantly shallower angle. That wouldn't be an issue with the lower roof  but it would with the upper roof and head space in the loft. That would be cured with higher walls but I don't know exactly how much higher I would have to go. I do like the higher angled roofs but I would need shingles or steel roof. It depends on my exact budget.

It looks like with the door and windows I would be saving 2 cords of wood with 24" thick walls, after watching Rob Roy's video on youtube again I am thinking about slimming up the walls to 20" to save on a little more wood and add interior space, plus it sounds like a white cedar and perlite wall combo will be very well insulated so 4" may not be missed too much.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on March 01, 2018, 07:24:10 AM
It's just computer drawing, a different paper and pencil. It makes a pretty picture but the info is what really matters, I got that from your sketch  ;).

Tell me more about the green roof... max allowable slope, weight per square foot, your local snow load per square foot. How do you detail it to keep it dry.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: MountainDon on March 01, 2018, 10:15:44 AM
QuoteFirst I was thinking I wanted a straight staircase along one of the walls(washer&dryer under) but then I figured I might run into problems with head room under the lower ceiling.

Run the stairs up a side wall, heading towards the upper level, turn 90 degrees at a landing and head towards the centerline (ridgeline) of the house. Build a dormer at the landing for headroom clearance.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on March 01, 2018, 01:59:17 PM
Here's just a few pictures I found online of the green roof.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4703/39664409605_a89e4277a8.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4668/39664415115_b64ca07845.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4716/26688376238_88f1503dbe.jpg)

I don't have the exact details worked out about them but from the little I've seen of them being made is that you put down foam insulation then a heavy duty waterproof liner, I was thinking of heavy duty rubber pond liner then a layer of straw with some black dirt on top and grass seed that. I don't want a flat roof but I am not sure what the max allowable angle would be to make sure it stays put, these pictures show a very shallow roof. Some of the pros about a green roof is water runoff, a lot of the water is caught in the sod and the roots suck it up which keeps water from pouring over the sides. Snow around here hasn't been a whole lot lately, maybe 2-3' feet with some melting in between... Online annual snow reports are saying 3.8' in the nearest large city. I'm not very dead set on the green roof, it just came across as a surprisingly viable option, I will do more researching on that.

MountainDon, I like your stair idea with the bend. For simplicity I would like to avoid a dormer if possible but I think I could get something like that to work without one.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on March 02, 2018, 06:37:46 PM
I am still trying to figure out a good plan for the post and beams. How far should they be spaced apart?

I've been looking for plans online but almost none of them have the simple type of floor plan I am going for and they don't show measurements, just a CAD drawing.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: NathanS on March 02, 2018, 06:54:30 PM
I have a book called "A Timber Framer's Workshop" that I think is considered a good resource for post and beam. It actually does have some basic plans in it.

Timber frames are traditionally made out of a couple 'bents.'

With a sod roof you are going to want impeccable water management details. The sod is actually going to act as a water storage mechanism, and there will always be hydrostatic pressure looking for pinholes to infiltrate. From memory, I believe that if you have 1/2" deep 'cup' of water sitting on the side of a wall, that amount hydrostatic pressure is the equivalent of the wall being hammered with hurricane force winds.

Probably the best way is to create a small gap between the sod and the roofing underlayment. EPDM, then some kind of a mesh material spacing that is held down by the sod.

That's where I would start anyway.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on March 02, 2018, 11:16:36 PM
You'll need to decide on the roof and nail down those loads more accurately to begin to be able to design the frame. Where my mind is going, the weight of saturated soil with several feet of snow on it has got to be considerable... need a number in lbs per square foot, I would err conservatively there, if it sags and begins ponding it can become a self feeding problem. One more thing to be thinking about is the thick walls and openings. As I moved through the sketch I made, I've put a window and door in it, the first thing I saw was that a door mounted to the exterior to the wall can only swing to 90 degrees before bumping into the thick wall. Mounted inboard would allow more swing or using and outswing door if mounted to the outside. A window in the thick wall is sort of like a tunnel, narrowing the field of view and light. You may want to think about flaring the openings.

I've been bucking the timberframers, and my partner and the client to a lesser degree over the past year as we have been reconstructing a historic log barn. The framers would call for a dimension, I would do the math and come up with a larger size needed and we would argue. I was not copying the original, my reply was that the original members were failing or in serious trouble. I finally asked an engineer friend to check me one day. He asked why I was feeling the need to skimp. From then on I went to the woods and gave them what they needed rather than what they asked for. This past week we surveyed another very similar barn on the same large farm and will begin working on it soon. It is in better condition. It was very likely built by the same person. One of the first things we noticed is the dimensions are a good bit larger than on the first barn. There is one collapsing shed that has smaller rafters just like the first barn, the rest are about the size we put in as replacements in that barn. I suspect we were seeing the learning curve.

Nathan, bent framing probably evolved from cruck frames. Another traditional method was the box frame where posts were topped by timber plates and then the roof system was added to that box. So rather than tipping up heavy bents they were installing timbers one at a time.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on March 03, 2018, 03:52:38 PM
I see that waterproof membrane, EPDM and rubber pond liner cost more than expected. I will plan on a steel roof for now. My buddy is selling his farm and moving to Florida and we built all of his buildings with rib steel and I know he still has piles of it, I could probably steel roof the whole place for half the cost of these waterproof membranes alone.

So I guess steel roof and high peaks are the way I'm going.

The thick walls for the door isn't a problem, I was planning on an outward swinging oak door with a large wood frame around it that would take a military APC battering ram to get through. The windows might not be the most convenient for letting light in but I can use the extra space as a shelf and in the winter I was thinking if I got around to it I could get some cheap single pane windows to put on the inside for insulation and remove them in the summer. 
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on March 03, 2018, 10:52:37 PM
more doodle for concept.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/cordwood3.jpg)
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on March 08, 2018, 12:45:55 PM
I like how those stairs are looking but I think I would leave some space between that south west facing wall and the lower section of stairs. I would have to extend the lower section but that shouldn't be a problem or I could do a 180 degree switch back, it all depends on the kind of clearance I have with the lower ceiling. I want a bathroom and second room under the loft, so I will need wall space for two doors.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on March 08, 2018, 06:07:10 PM
Head clearance dictated that last lower step and landing location with that roof configuration with the landing against the wall. You can see it better with the rafter layer turned on;
(http://timbertoolbox.com/cp/cordwood4.jpg)

As you move away from the wall though, at a 12/12 pitch, every foot away from the wall buys you a foot of headroom, so the stair configuration can change, as can the roof height, actually those tails are down in the windows a bit right now at that overhang. Time for a floorplan sketch from you, doodle again is fine. one thing that is going to be kind of a constant is it'll take 14 steps to get upstairs. I wouldn't drop the tread below ~10" deep. They must be at least 36" wide after wall coverings are applied.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on March 13, 2018, 01:30:28 PM
How would something like this work? Hopefully the stair layout I drew makes sense. Option #1 would have the switchback stairs fully outside of the loft and two room underneath, option #2 would have the higher level of stair set into the two room and loft with the bonus of being under the higher ceiling.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4794/38981883280_3d0db47e5a_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on March 13, 2018, 07:39:22 PM
You need to land up at the loft on something so option 1 as I see it doesn't work there, the stairway to nowhere  :D. I've done a modification of option 2. It is easier to land against a notch over that center bearing wall between bed and bath. There is a path behind the stairs to the bath on the left.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/cp/cordwood3.8.jpg)

The sketchup file is here if you want to download sketchup and the file, and then open the file in sketchup. If you make changes save them to sketchup 2016 and post them, where my graphics card stops. Anyone, feel free to play with this and post what you come up with.

http://timbertoolbox.com/cp/cordwood3.8.skp

Bedroom is about 10'6" wide x ~13' deep, bath is ~10'6x10'... carve bedroom closets or more room out of the bath.

Edit, doodled on the skp a little more last night;
http://timbertoolbox.com/cp/cordwood3.14.skp
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on March 14, 2018, 01:02:04 PM
I got a good laugh out of the "stairs to nowhere" comment. I didn't draw that up the best  d* but I figured option 2 was what needed to be done anyways, it will just take a little more fiddling around to make the bedroom and bathroom. Not a big deal to me, it wouldn't bother me to move in without the bathroom even having walls, I will have plenty of time fiddle.

Thanks a ton for the help and I will download that sketchup software hopefully tonight.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Ernest T. Bass on May 17, 2018, 09:58:26 AM
'Smokes Don, I don't know how you can can be so busy and also provide so much in-depth free support here.. It boggles my mind; hat's off to you.

We're 11 years in our cob-mortared aspen-wooded cordwood home in the UP. Actually cutting popple right now for a large kitchen addition we'll be building this summer.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on May 18, 2018, 05:42:49 AM
Good to hear from you Andrew, LOL you got the pitter patter all around you, I have more hours of selfish play. Hmm interesting on your aspen experience, actually shortly after this thread went quiet I was in a cordwood/post and beam cabin in TN, very nice. Stone foundation, sawmill lumber and timbers, just about everything from right there. Built by a couple of boys using hand tools as a homeschool project. Each then got to move in to that as part of their life experience, a nice semi independent hardening off time for a growing boy. Predominantly tulip poplar and maple, two woods I would have avoided for the same lack of natural decay resistance and high movement during drying. There was some caulking around shrunken logs but not too bad, no rot visible. The boys now have families and kids, it is a vacation rental cabin now, so it has been there a good while. Keeping things high and dry and having a good hat on is most important.

as a sort of humorous side story on that, the kids grew up around the adjacent little circle mill, the same kind as mine, working it with their Dad. Now that the "old man" is my age he saw 11 grandkids around the mill with his kids working and had an OSHA attack, he bought a bandmill and I bought his old circle mill. I've got the big diesel engine for mine and a friend got his mill and will power it with a tractor which is how I've been running since '93.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: hpinson on May 18, 2018, 04:53:13 PM
If you want to do that grass roof you might consider Silicone as well as a membrane.  Good Silicone Primer (APOC® 583 Armor Base®) and Silicone product (APOC® 585 Armor Flex®) is very durable and completely waterproof, and has a surprisingly long lifespan.  A roof like that is just asking for degradation, leakage, and mold. Don't use lessor Silicone products like those available at the box stores like from Henry. Get the good stuff with the high silicone solids count.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Ernest T. Bass on May 19, 2018, 09:27:33 AM
Quote from: Don_P on May 18, 2018, 05:42:49 AM
Good to hear from you Andrew, LOL you got the pitter patter all around you, I have more hours of selfish play. Hmm interesting on your aspen experience, actually shortly after this thread went quiet I was in a cordwood/post and beam cabin in TN, very nice. Stone foundation, sawmill lumber and timbers, just about everything from right there. Built by a couple of boys using hand tools as a homeschool project.

Sounds pretty neat--I'd take cedar any day if it was abundantly available, but Aspen is what we were handed and so far has held up. (Now if you leave the bark on, let it get wet or stick it in the ground it'll be rotten all the way through by the end of the summer.)

I don't get the pitter patter?
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on May 20, 2018, 06:13:37 AM
The pitter patter of little feet  :D a full house. Although your kids must be growing up fast. We're just a couple of old farts bouncing around the house at night.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Ernest T. Bass on May 20, 2018, 09:11:21 PM
I'm actually the oldest of the little kids, though most of us aren't so little anymore... :)
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on May 21, 2018, 10:25:04 PM
LOL, my turn to be thoroughly impressed.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Ernest T. Bass on May 29, 2018, 09:48:43 AM
Shucks, I'm 28 now so what I do is no big deal... I'm still resting on the laurels of my 15 y.o. self. :)
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on May 31, 2018, 01:07:30 PM
Hey! Sorry I haven't been around much. The plan got slowed down when this Minnesota winter lasted into April, then soon as everything thawed out I got crazy busy working on horses.

I plan on having my house up for sale in 2 or 3 weeks and the way the market is going around here I've been told by close to a dozen people that the house will be sold in less than a week, then I will just have to wait for closing.

I've made some progress though, I made plans with a guy to buy around 20 cords of white cedar from him soon as I get paid for the house. I got an ok price at $225 a cord but I am very happy because it was not easy to find and this stuff is aged two years and the bark is ready to come off easily.

I think I've got around 80% of what I am building figured out, I am still stumped on the post and beams though, as to how many I will need and the general layout of them.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: JRR on June 02, 2018, 02:02:38 PM
I wonder how re-purposed rail ties would work for stacked cordwood walls?   Such material seems very available as its piled and collected every year from some rail system that I drive near.  Many of these rectangular timbers seem hardly worn.  I would think they would be as dimensionally stable as wood can be.  Cutting and shaping would be a challenge, but cost may well be very low.  I can imagine foot-long pieces being stacked with a thin lather of roofing curing cement as sealer.  A vertical membrane of roofing paper nailed in place, followed by metal lathe/re-bar and thick high quality stucco covering (interior and exterior) would make a wall system that would outlast us all.
.
..huh?
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on June 02, 2018, 09:44:51 PM
Creosote wouldn't be a good thing to live with, it is not allowed inside.

Glad to hear you're still kicking Rock Knocker. Hopefully Andrew still has his ears on and y'all can collaborate, he's actually done this.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: JRR on June 04, 2018, 10:17:32 AM
Yeah, gas off of the creosote would be the concern.  I don't suppose any conventional inside covering would prevent the gas from migrating inward.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on August 04, 2018, 12:27:42 PM
Well, my house is for sale, not selling as fast as I was hoping for though. Everything is taking longer than expecting, I figured I would be working on the new house by now.

Some things are going good though, I've got 20 cords of 2 year aged white cedar, the bark comes off in sheets just by hand. I've also got a lot of hard woods to work with for posts and beams and anything else interior. The only problem with the hardwood logs I have is that most are 10 feet long at the very most, I'm still pretty foggy about what exactly I am going to need for the post and beam interior but I am thinking I can get solid posts for the walls but I wont have enough length for a ridge pole if needed and some other roof work.

I came up with an interesting idea yesterday, could I make my own laminate beams with the hard wood? Say I cut the hard wood into 2"x6"s can I then stick them together 3 wide to make a 6"x6", staggering them to create a longer beam?
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on August 04, 2018, 09:28:07 PM
Not legally, and with good reason. The cost would end up higher than visiting a local sawmill I bet. Or for that matter sizing the tree necessary for a beam.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on August 04, 2018, 09:48:35 PM
Bummer. So I cant legally make beams?

I've done some searching around the internet and come across a few other people asking about the same thing, I believe most were going to be using it as a posts though.

I've got access to a lot of oak and maple tree trunks, most have already been cut to around 8'-10' long, so too short for ridge poles, but they are heavy duty at probably an average of 18" across. I'm just trying to figure out if I can join shorter beams together to make longer beams because I'm going to need quite a few, I've got the wood, just not the length.

Here's a couple links to guys asking about the same thing, they've done a better job explaining what their plan is.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229175
https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/26031-construction-laminated-posts-pole-barn.html

I was picturing possibly gluing the staggered boards and finishing by driving a 1.5" or 2" dowel through the sides of the three boards to help tie everything together.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on August 04, 2018, 11:03:44 PM
Don't even consider it. They grow longer trees every day if you don't have them.
You'll spend a lot of time and some expense to create a very inferior beam. Take the same capital and invest it in the right materials. Use the 8' material where you can and then as paneling... ceiling?, trim, cabinets, etc. Lets see your plan and see what you can use.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on August 04, 2018, 11:56:12 PM
I figured out how to expertly edit the image you already created.

The roof section is what I don't have numbers on yet. The ridge pole(if needed) will be simple to figure a length on, my main concern is the other part of the roof.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1800/29985446878_99fa57085d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MFHfFq)
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on September 05, 2018, 01:30:33 PM
Well October 9th is the day I will happily become homeless, then the work begins.

Does anyone have an idea the best way I should go about figuring out exactly what I'm going to need for posts and beams?
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on September 05, 2018, 02:32:31 PM
If you're building somewhere there's a jurisdictional authority such as a building inspector, they will likely have a say on how you should figure that out.  Typical requirement is a set of plans stamped by an engineer licensed in your state.

If no one cares but you how it is built, then you may be able to work through some calculations on your own.  That is what I am doing for the remote cabin I will someday build.  Be forewarned though that if you ever want to sell this structure, it's probably going to be worth your while to have some documentation such as an engineer's plans that demonstrates it is built in accordance with code.  The county inspector may not care but any bank considering a mortgage will care.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on September 05, 2018, 10:10:18 PM
I missed post #81, you were looking for how to determine rafter length. It looks like I drew a 12/12 pitch on the roof, a 45 degree angle. The rafter for that pitch is 1.414 times the run. half the 25' building, 150" +24" overhang= 174" horizontal run x 1.414=246"... 22' rafter material.

There is a rafter length calculator and various post and beam calculators here:
http://timbertoolbox.com/
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on September 10, 2018, 12:07:36 PM
Thanks a lot. I figured talking to the county would help. I actually did talk to the inspector several months ago and he was quite optimistic because the building inspector before him gave the okay on another cordwood house in the county, he personally hadn't dealt with one but said it shouldn't be too bad.

And thanks for those measurements Don, that gives me a lot better idea of what I will be dealing with for the roof.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on April 25, 2019, 05:28:30 PM
Well, I'm still here. The whole house selling deal went south when the buyer went to jail and took until January to settle. Spring is the best time to sell so I just listed my house again last week and had received a couple offers by the next day.  Everything was a complete cluster but the offer I have now is for $20k more than the offer I had last fall and the buyers and lenders are a lot less shady, so it was worth it.

My building plan and materials have stayed the same but I am going to have to figure out a different piece of land to buy but I have a few options.

How's everyone been doing here?


Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on April 25, 2019, 09:02:24 PM
Wow, sorry for the troubles. It sounds like it might work out better in the end or at least you're getting some hassle tax out of the deal. Spring has definitely sprung, I've talked to 3 people this week about projects here, I guess we're all coming out of hibernation  :).
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: MountainDon on April 25, 2019, 09:30:28 PM
Quotehibernation

It's funny, even here in the high desert where we don't get much snow and when we do it melts in a day or so, and the ground hardly freezes more than an inch or so deep, people don't do yard work in winter. A landscaper friend never has enough work in the winter months. Come spring they get booked ahead for weeks or a month or so and stay that way till fall. We had them do some rock removal in the February slow time. Now they are busy busy.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on April 25, 2019, 10:41:15 PM
Most work around Minnesota certainly is seasonal. It sure doesn't bother me, I love winter, I wait all summer for winter to show back up.  I'm a big fan of getting outdoors and I do a lot of hiking and hunting in the winter, no bugs, no mud, no sweat, where there once was ponds, lakes and streams are nice smooth paths. Winter got pretty hard core in MN this year,  cold enough that negative single digits was feeling nice in central MN, -30's a few nights and lots of snow also, this winter was the first time in more than ten years that snowshoes or skis became necessary to hike around. I hate seeing things melting but at the same time I start feeling pretty bad for all the animals living out there, finding food in crotch deep snow or more everywhere with below zero temps is rough, it's amazing what they can live through.

I'm expecting an exciting summer this year once my house sells. I made a phone call today that took a huge weight off my back also. The people that I was going to buy that 20 cords of cedar said they needed it out of the wood lot this winter and after my first house sale fell through I figured it was gone but I talked to them today and it's still there. So except for the 22+ foot beams I've got all the wood I need, and for cheap too.

Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Rock Knocker on July 21, 2019, 10:43:56 PM
House is sold, I'm living in a trailer and I own two large piles of logs... Everything is going to plan.

I just brought home a TimberKing 1600 with an extra 6'-8' welded on. I'm renting it from a customer of mine for a good price but it has sat in a shed for the last 3 years, it's going to take a lot of lube and a bit of TLC until I'm cutting.

My problem is my continued lack of knowing what I am doing. I've got the wood and the saw but I don't know what to cut. I'm thinking 8"x8" for posts or I could cut a lot of 6"x6" for rafters, or maybe something like 6"x8" would be good for posts...?

I've been on the phone a couple times with county officials to find out where to start. Sounds like I need to get a hold of an actual engineer to draw up the house plan. I have some phone calls to make tomorrow.

Do any of you have any thoughts on what size lumber I should start cutting?

 
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: Don_P on July 22, 2019, 09:54:15 PM
Nothing but trim and sheathing till you have a plan. But do cut some of that non structural wood to get the hang of sawing. Check with the county to see if you need to have the posts and beams graded, if it is required see if they will allow the engineer to do that.
Title: Re: Planning a cordwood house???
Post by: NathanS on July 23, 2019, 07:48:18 AM
Even getting familiar with how stick framed homes are structurally designed will give a baseline knowledge of how timbers need to be sized.

I thought this was a good read:

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/pdf/residential.pdf