Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK

ajbremer · June 06, 2012, 04:47:55 PM

Well, I've done a few more videos showing the cupping problem at the top of the ridge beams. This video shows just how large the gap really came to be up there. I clamp it in this video and then screwed it in many places more.

I had a friend ask me if I glued them together. Well, I didn't really think about doing that but I really should have. Even though I lifted them up there one by one, I could have glued them together and screwed them much more then I did at first. When I first put those 2 beams up there. I nailed them together and then also screwed them in a few places but kind of roughed it in. I told myself that I would add more screws and nails later. Well, then I began to put my rafters up and forgot about adding even more nails and screws. Then a storm came.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuhXMLmEQiI

This next video below shows how the bottom of those beams are fairly tight together, they didn't separate hardly at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnfztcdGAE0

And then I covered the top of the ridge beam with a tarp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp3EmXn0nmY

ajbremer · June 06, 2012, 10:08:27 PM

I guess I'm going to have to purchase 4 - 2x8x18 footers for my barge rafters. I just realized that when I went to cut the angle on those 2x8x16's for my rafters, I almost used up the whole board. There was only about an 1/8th or 1/4 inch left on the board. That means that 16 footer barge rafters won't be able to reach each other up there at the top. I had planed on the barge rafters meeting each other and possibly adding some sort of gusset to help them stay together.

I'm guessing that if I was to use the whole length of a 16 footer for a barge rafter, cut the ~45 degree at the end of it, and have the rafter tail flush with all the other rafter tails - there would be something like 1-1/2" to 2" of air between them up there at the top.

I've thought about putting some kind of ridge extension up there going out to meet the barge ends but I'm not sure how that could be possible. I have enough 2x8x16's left and I was hoping to use them.

Any suggestions?

June 07, 2012, 06:15:53 AM

The gusset and a fill between the tops sounds fine, a vertical block will probably have more grain to avoid splitting than a horizontal fill. You can run a horizontal fill block back to the wall up there if it helps with nailing. This is getting into "backup" more than structural framing, framing to hold finish materials up.

ajbremer · June 07, 2012, 11:59:24 AM

Thursday Morning - June 7th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got my 1st barge rafter into position so far this morning. I thought I would 'cage it in' so I put a 2x4 against the existing rafter tails, another 2x4 against the wall and under the rafters, and one more up high and under the rafters - all boards protrud beyond the lookouts. This then made a way to hold the barge rafter into position. Then I strapped it with a couple of straps to keep it safely in its position until I get up there and nail it flush to and against the lookouts. I have 7 lookouts each side, used 2x6's, and their 2 feet from each other.

Now the way I got it up and into position by myself (and a little help from the wife) was this. I lifted it up and laid it flat on top of the lookouts. My wife was there near the bottom steadying it for me. I slowly slid it over near the very edge and then simply held on tight while letting it slowly and easily fall into position - that's it.

After it's all nailed, I'll get up top and cut the ~45 degree plumb cut to match the other rafter. They probably won't reach each other so I'll have to do some thinking up there as I've mentioned in previous posts above.

I took a picture of it and also made a nice video of how I did it. Check that video out please:

Here's the picture, the video link is after it:

Here's the video of how I got my first barge rafter into position:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnkkuDP1evY

ajbremer · June 07, 2012, 01:44:42 PM

Thursday Afternoon - June 7th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

My Dad, Clarence Bremer, passed away the day before yesterday at 83 years old June 5th, 2012 @ 1pm. He was in an assisted living home near Zolfo Springs, Florida. He was my mothers companion for 57 years and my dad for almost 56 years.

He never built a countryplan place like I'm doing but he worked construction for just a few years and then went along with my mom into GM and they both retired from there after 35 or so years. I remember when he built the external 2 car garage at the house where I 'grew tall', he did a great job on it but I paid no attention to what he was doing, I was probably 12 or 13 years old at the time and didn't care about that stuff.

Maybe 3 or 4 years ago I wrote a song about my relationship with my father. I got to play it for him a year or so ago and he was happy. I used my cheap old Casio keyboard to do the drum track and played my acoustic guitar and sang and recorded it myself. The track came out pretty good for being cheap and free software.

Here's the song I wrote awhile back, "Love You Dad" : http://hockeya.com/music/love_you_dad.mp3

June 07, 2012, 03:02:55 PM

AJ, I am sorry for your loss. It sounds, though, like you have some truly great memories to carry with you. It is so true that we just don't listen sometimes when we're younger to the wisdom of those put in charge of our youth. I know I wish I'd listened to my dad when he talked about birds and gardening.

I hope you and yours are able to celebrate a life well lived. (insert smiley raising a toast here)

ajbremer · June 07, 2012, 03:40:19 PM

Thank you kindly JavaMan

pmichelsen · June 07, 2012, 04:34:48 PM

Quote from: ajbremer on June 07, 2012, 01:44:42 PM
...he did a great job on it but I paid no attention to what he was doing, I was probably 12 or 13 years old at the time and didn't care about that stuff.

Isn't that the truth, had I taken the trade I would have been a fourth generation plumber and when I was in high school my father would always try and get me to come work with him and I always had better things to do. Now I often do side jobs a lot of them being plumbing jobs and I always have to call him and without fail his first response is "you know I tried to teach you all of this when you were younger..."

Sorry for your loss...

ColchesterCabin · June 07, 2012, 04:56:24 PM

AJ, sorry to hear about your loss man, I listen to your song and read your words several times and I think he would have been proud to see what you've done with this build. Hopefully you shared that song with him. I recently lost my grand mother and when we buried her we bruried her iwth my grand father. Unfortunately we don't listen as kids and we always seem to look back with a ittle regret. I know I have as well!

Keep rocking the build man....

June 07, 2012, 05:30:40 PM

AJ sorry for your loss.

We just celebrated my fathers 86th Birthday yesterday. There is a song which pretty well sums up most Father/Son relationships but I can't recall the name but has the wording as "he's grown up just like me". That pretty well sums up most. I know he is proud of what you have accomplished in life. Mine is and constantly praises my accomplishments. He worked in a similar field as I did for some 42 years. Keep hammering.

ajbremer · June 08, 2012, 01:00:16 PM

Friday June 8th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I'll need some help here. I have both barge rafters up on my east gable end. One is nailed in place and the other is waiting for me to cut the angle at the top before I nail it.

The 2x8x16 footers are not long enough to meet each other perfectly so I'll have to form a gusset and/or make a ridge beam/board extension.

I made a video of the 'situation' and ask for comments in it. I asked about this in some posts above and got some suggestions but now you'll be able to see for yourself what's up.

Here's a picture, the video is after:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFhH2xCYLas

Duane Flanders · June 08, 2012, 06:52:34 PM

I have been lurking watching your build. It looks like you are doing a good job.

Why don't you mark where the boards cross at the top and bottom and make your cuts. There would be a small square missing at the top, but if you are going to be putting on facia boards and soffits underneath, it will never be seen. This isn't a structural component so the little bit missing shouldn't be a problem.

Sorry to hear about you loss.

Redoverfarm, The song is Cat's in the Cradle by Harry Chapin

kenhill · June 08, 2012, 07:02:57 PM

There is also Father and Son by Cat Stevens.

Harry Chapin came to my college 3 times in 4 years (Geneseo, NY). Tragic to loose him so early in his career.

Bob S. · June 08, 2012, 08:50:59 PM

I think Duane has it right on. No problem just cover it up and drive on.
I love your build and realy appreciate that you are taking the time to post all your problems and insights. I like that you are a rank amateur and how you are solving your problems.

June 08, 2012, 09:52:57 PM

I'm sorry to hear about your Dad Al.
Mom has been making dad thin his "empire" so he doesn't catch the bus and leave her with a pile of junk to clean up. His idea is to bring all that good junk to my house. Whenever my wife has the estate sale I'm sure people are going to be wondering just what to bid on a set of old box locks and door hinges and why I would ever save them. I was a kid when we took them off

.

I usually scab on a piece of 2x, notched around the top lookout, to the inside of the fly and splice them together when they are short. A piece of scrap osb sawed to lap onto both sides and screwed to the inside would also do it. A chunk standing vertical for fill in between flys at the peak could be screwed in from the backside. Often on 12/12's rather than mitering the peak of the fascia I'll run one by the other to lap the stacked joints.

Redoverfarm · June 09, 2012, 06:50:42 AM

Don_P I think what aj is struggling with is that he is not going to finish the soffit area due to time restraints and probably is debating on what it's appearence will be with the splice. Once the framework is in place it shouldn't take long to cover the soffit area but maybe it is a little daunting haveing never attempted this stage of building. If done correctly I don't think it will be that noticable.

ajbremer · June 09, 2012, 07:42:54 AM

Saturday Morning - June 9th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks guys for all of the response, they get me to thinking and are a great help and I need all of that I can get!

I didn't have time to post a few more videos yesterday but I've finished them now.

This first video shows how I can reach out so far to nail a couple of 2x4's to the last rafter tails to act as an end support while I slide the fly rafter into position. Remember, I also have a stick of 2x4 under the last 2 rafters and sticking out beyond the lookouts to act as 1 of the 2 main supports, the other main support 2x4 is under those same last 2 rafters up at the top. Together, these three 2x4 sticks freely support the fly rafter.

I initially lean it into position and then strap around it to keep it in place while I reach way out there to nail it to the ends of the looks outs.

This second video actually shows the whole process of me sliding the fly rafter on top of the lookouts and then dropping it into position. My wife was taking the videos and she had some settings incorrect so they are not the usual clearness of my other videos - especially this 1st video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik0pdPEuHuI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAEFYCg60rY

UK4X4 · June 09, 2012, 12:58:38 PM

Being a Brit - we have posh names for "Architectural" details

The words I found for for covering up a rough joint in a facia or barge board are

Barge board finial
facia Finial
Gable end finial

everything from a simple diamond shape to a gargoyle

ColchesterCabin · June 09, 2012, 05:14:32 PM

come on AL doesn't a gargoyle soon awesome. I think they hide all kinds...lol

ajbremer · June 09, 2012, 06:11:12 PM

Hey, you guys are cool!

Well, I did it. I tried using both sides of my brain to come up with a solution to my upper fly rafter joint situation.

I figured that the best way that it 'should have been done' was to have my beam long enough and the fly rafters would simply attach to the beam just like all the other rafters did. So, that's what I did.

I have 3 pictures and one video, the video is pretty informative and revealing so check it out if ya can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FKUQxhs4cg

June 09, 2012, 06:27:03 PM

Way to go AJ. Going to make a carpenter out of you yet.

ColchesterCabin · June 09, 2012, 06:46:25 PM

Nicely done, very creative solution to your problem

ajbremer · June 10, 2012, 06:28:30 AM

Sunday Morning - June 10th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

After I spent so much time figuring out the barge rafter installation process on my east gable end, which is now complete, I started on my west gable end near the end of the day yesterday. Wow, it went so much faster because I had the system down.

I snapped a line across my lookout ends, cut them with the circular saw, installed those 3 temporary 2x4's that I use to hold up the fly, laid my fly rafter flat wise onto the lookouts and then slide it out and down into position, strapped it, nailed it, and then removed the temporary 2x's - all within about an hour and a half!

Did I overkill by way of using 2x6's on 2 foot centers for my lookouts, is that a little too much, could I have used 2x4's on 4 foot centers? That's a lot of weight sticking out there isn't it? I'm glad I did do it the way I did, I think it'll be really strong once all the roof is on BUT I still should be very careful about putting my weight over that protruding area while I'm working up there.

I have read that notching the end rafter for lookouts is the only exception to the rule for never notching rafters because of weakness. The reason the end rafter can be notched is because it is studded on a load bearing wall (the gable end).

Here's the south side view:

Don_P · June 10, 2012, 07:49:32 AM

You are right regarding notching the rafter at the wall, it is not a spanning member.

I've wondered whether to mention the difference in lookout methods, but here we are so let's.
Flatways 2x's are marginal for overhangs. In your case you chose this method and I think it is fine in your climate. The 2x6's are probably overkill there but since you are using them as a ladder and understand the implications of going outboard, tearing out inboard can also happen. A 2x6 with another nail and some more meat doesn't bother me. I try to keep my weight near the notch.

The lookout laying flat has much less bending strength than if it were up on edge, I posted pics of that method a few pages back. As wind and snow loads increase that is the best way to frame the overhang. As it gets windier from there, start hurricane tieing those upright lookouts down to the sheathed wall.

At the weakest end of that series of methods is the hung on "hog trough" a foot wide 2x4 ladder nailed to the wall and held up by the sheathing. You can generally spot them driving around and sure know it when you step on one.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it before when you weren't sure if you'd be able to frame overhangs. In the northeast the old Cape Cod style of abbreviated overhangs was all about ice damming in poorly insulated and vented buildings. If there was snow up there it melted, ran down and refroze into a dam on any protruding overhang. The pooling water finally ran inside after the dam grew high enough and the lake was over the warm interior. They needed to get the melt off before it could refreeze. A detail for a region and a time.

Redoverfarm · June 10, 2012, 10:46:12 AM

Don_P I have always practiced to vent the soffit area on the lookout rafters as well as the house rafters. But then again it was only benifical if you used a ridge vent. Speaking of the soffit I think that AJ will have to get creative. While the matching beam protrusion in the ridge of the barge rafter he has created another small inconvience when it comes to the soffit. The beam demensions allow it to drop below the rafter thickness so convientional soffit placement and attachment is challanged. If hindsight is 20/20 the ridge extension should have probably been cut down heightwise to match the rafter heigth. What was taken off the bottom would have been concealed (in comparison with the house ridge) by the soffit and wall sheeting. I guess he could eliminate that pitch at the very top and place a portion of the soffit flat (dropped down below that beam bottom) or just have that little triangle present.