Hello all. I am new to this forum and have been enjoying the info from many posts over the last week or so. I expect to lean on some the experts and folks that have been there, done that for our project.
We have puchased about 3/4 of an acre of wooded land about 1/2 mile from the water front at lake Eufaula, OK. I have start doing some clearing, but have quite a bit left to do. It has electric, but no water or septic. Water will need to be a well at some point, but a neighboring lot has an abandoned well on it that I may be able to use temporarily.
We are transitioning from tent camping, straight to our own build, so it is a fairly big step. Add to that, I have been recently diagnosed with MS, so it is possible that at some point in the build, I might not be able to finish, but I am not going to "what if" myself into deciding not to press forward. We are not wealthy, so the builds will have to be done in stages. Starting next spring, the current plan is to build a 12 x 12 micro cabin, with loft, that will eventually become a bedroom for the macro cabin. The micro will have 10' walls and a 12/12 pitch roof and a shed dormer. For the Macro, I am looking at 16 x24 with 10' walls and loft, or 20 x 30 with 8' walls and loft.
I have started building a model for what I am wanting to do for the micro, and would appreciate ideas, and comments.
I will try to put photos below, if I can figure out how to do it.
Thanks all. Chris.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533741_4985868004423_260110797_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/63357_4985868124426_1788520140_n.jpg)
I think this ought to be made a sticky topic. I'm convinced...
Some gentle constructive critique;
The kneewalls should probably be replaced with balloon framing but either way the ridge should be designed as a beam supported by built up posts at each end. Those posts need to continue down to support below, those are unframed walls in the model at the moment. It would be typical to run the floor joists the other direction but with a structural ridge this is ok. I'd size the opening in the second floor for a code spiral stair 5'x5' finished opening IIRC, the door in that area would cause a problem.
I've taken to letting in 2x6 ledgers centered 3' off the floor around the bathroom walls for future grabrails while we are framing, we do the same for cabinets, you may want to think about where you might want more blocking buried for later. Slab on grade or a low crawl with sitework designed for accessability. It is very hard to catch up to a falling grade with a ramp. Carry the accessability thoughts throughout the house, maybe a curbless shower or euro bath, door widths, etc. Generally accessible and micro don't go together very well.
I've burned up 10 houses worth of model studs this week from scrap rippings, have often thought about selling model kits. Especially for first timers it is very educational to build it to scale first and work through some of the unforseen tough spots. I used our model to confirm overhangs, sun angles and apparently to give the cat a playhouse. When I was done one of the guys took it home for his kids to play with.
Thanks for the comments. I had already moved my thought process to balloon walls after I started building the model. The opening for the loft is planned at 5 x 5 finished opening, however, where I am building, there is no code. The reason for the ridge board and not a ridge beam is I was wanting about 7' of headroom in the center of the loft. Can I still have built up supports on the gable ends for the ridge board? You may not be able to see them in the pictures, but I was planning on 2x4 supports under the 2x8 ridge board as well to give a little more support.
Also, I did not notch the rafters in the model to sit on the header, but am planning on it in the build.
This will be built on piers as there is some grade on the lot, slight downward slope from the road.
Chris
It needs to have a ridge beam for that roof configuration. For that building a double 2x10 or larger will do the job but you may want to bump that up to provide enough depth for the plumb cut of the rafters to bear against. I'm typically framing with 2x12 rafters to get insulation depth and venting. A single lvl would do it as well. For a double 2x ridge I typically use 4 studs to create the post. 2 under and 2 that run alongside to create a pocket the ridgebeam drops into. I haven't checked but the ridge is supporting about 2600 lbs, each end post is supporting half of that, should be good.
It looks like OK generally uses the 09 IRC;
http://www.iccsafe.org/gr/Documents/jurisdictionadoptions.pdf
Very cool model. I wish I had done that, though Google Sketchup is the next best thing, virtually anyway.
Was initially planning on 2x6 rafters, but that would not allow for any venting. If I go to 2x8 rafters, I should be able to have it vented and still use r-19 insulation, correct? Should the rafters be 16" oc, or can I get away with 24" oc?
I am still wanting peak at 16', 8' ceilings in first floor, 7' headroom at center of loft. Can I still use 2x6 floor joists for the loft? Is there a maximum depth that the ridge beam and/or rafters can be notched, like the picture below? If I can go with about a 4" notch, then I should be close to the 7' headroom, correct?
(http://www.diychatroom.com/attachments/f19/20231d1273198742t-gap-between-ridge-beam-ridge-board-rafter-board-beam-3.jpg)
I am needing some opinions. My lot is aproximately 3/4 of an acre, about 1/2 mile north of the waterline at Lake Eufaula, in Oklahoma. It is about 2 1/4 hours drive from our home. The lot is 75' along the road, and 300' back towards the lake, with some downward sloping about 60' back. I have started clearing some, but it will be slow going as I am doing it all myself, with a chainsaw and my truck. I am planning on leaving most of the larger trees, but clearing out brush, small trees, and cleaning up the larger ones.
I am close to having it clear enough to start building the 12 x 12, and have decided to make the macro cabin a 16 x 24, much like Lemay's design, only butted up to the 12x12 which will then become a bedroom.
My dilemma is, do I start on the 12 x 12 so we have a place to stay while clearing the rest of the lot, or do I clear the rest first? The reason I am struggling with this is there is a descent chance we will have a lake view of some sort once cleared. Once the 12x12 is built, I will be pretty well locked in on the location of the 16x24. It could take an entire spring/summer season to get the lot cleared to my liking, working on weekends.
View of property from the road. The stump in front of the big tree was an 8"-10" diameter cedar.
(https://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u551/dmnynkee01/Eufaula/BE16F342-6C25-4B1C-8F36-27338E815CFC-4282-000002A89189F72C.jpg)
I would thin to get a good handle on what view is where before any building starts. We used an RV as "home" fpr a couple of years while sorting through things like the view, getting to know where the rainfall and snow melts runs, the direction of prevailing winds etc. While thinning ask yourself what you'd want in case some mature trees died. That is you probably want to have some immature young trees mixed in with the maure ones. Plus some saplings so the entire cycle of tree life is represented. And do get rid of the undergrowth that is unnatural. Most locations should have a state forester that can be of great help when it comes to deciding on a thinning plan.
I prefer the term "thinning" to clearing, unless the idea is to cut down and remove everything as you would in the areas the home is to be located.
Thinning would be correct for what I am wanting to do. The 12x12 will be our "RV" for a couple of years. This is just going to be a summer weekend/vacation cabin, and not a permanent residence. I haven't been out there for a couple of months, but am thinking about going out sometime in the next couple of weeks. Hoping that most of the leaves will have fallen, and will be able to get a better idea how to proceed. I don't want to wait too long before starting the build, as stated in my first post, time may become an issue.
Here is my sketch of the 12 x 12 foundation. Planning on 2x8 joists, 16" OC, with blocking (not shown in sketch). Looking at span charts, the 11 1/2' span should be a non issue, which allows me to eliminate a center row of piers which I had first thought I would need. For sketch purposes, I used triple 2x8x12's for my beams, but I think that may be overkill. I should be fine using single 4x6x12's, or maybe double 2x6x12's with osb sandwiched? Alslo planning on 8" sonotube type forms for the piers, with 7" of cantilever from the center of beams.
(https://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u551/dmnynkee01/12x12foundation.jpg)
Thought about it some more, and I think I will stick with the triple 2x8's for the beams. Since I am doing 1 1/2 story, 4x6 doesn't seem like it would be beefy enough for the potential load.
Here is my rough sketchup of the direction I am wanting to go with the total build. The 5x5 loft opening in the 12x12 will either be walled up, or more preferable would be to floor it in.
(https://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u551/dmnynkee01/CabinConcept.jpg)
for the small difference in cost, I would use a larger floor joist.
a bouncy floor is very annoying, and you will not regret going stronger.
I am very excited to watch your build, I have a countryplan in skiatook ok
Floor joists: 2x8's of most #2 commonly used species make the 12 foot span, but some just barely. Check this link (http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp) Span charts and the calculator provide minimums. Or another way to look at it, the worst possible thing a code inspector would approve.
Triple 2x8 for side beams work for that loading and spacing of supports.
How about the piers themselves and the connections to the beams? Bracing pier to beam and pier to joist (90 degrees to each other in other words)
You do know that a code inspector would ask for the engineering on a pier and beam if he was really doing a proper job??
I looked here http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/floor-joists-span-d_1479.html (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/floor-joists-span-d_1479.html) for the span I was figuring, and it shows 14' 1" for 30 lbs psf, and since the span, between the beams is about 10'6", I thought I was in good shape. Using your link, 2x8 #2 southern pine, which is what is carried by the box stores out my way, shows 14'2" with a 40 lsb psf load.
There is no code where I am building, and the only inspections that will be done would be for septic, when we get to that point sometime down the road. That being said, I still want to build to code as much as possible for the safety aspect it provides, if for no other reason. I want things to be right, but I don't want to be wasteful by overbuilding where it is not needed.
For the piers, I am thinking in the soil about 18" deep, wider at the base (12"-14" or so) with 6" of gravel, then above ground will be the 8" tubes, and will vary from 12"-18" high. I will also use rebar in my piers. Beams connected to the concrete piers using Simpson PB66 post bases that will be set into the piers. I have not worked through connecting and bracing the joists to the beams, but I believe Simpson will be heavily involved.
Quoteshows 14'2" with a 40 lsb psf load.
Hmmmm... I get that 14-2 with 30 psf, not 40. .. 40 psf gives me 12-10 on SYP#2
Those are maximum spans for minimal performance, stretching to the limit of the L/360 deflection. For a part time cabin 30 psf may be realistic unless you plan on waterbeds, big gun safes, shelves of books and so on.
Another way to look at the floor joists is to build this as a lab and then see how it performs before going on to the next size. :)
30 live load, 10 dead load is where my 40 came from. I think 30 live load would be realistic. From what I was looking at the other day, Oklahoma snow load rating is 5-20 psf which is somewhat reduced even more with the 12/12 pitch roof.....and this will be a part time cabin, with no waterbeds or gun safes ;D.
Quote...don't want to be wasteful by overbuilding where it is not needed.
If we build to the code that would mean in many cases there is no possibility of overbuilding, as codes are minimums. At least that is one way to interpret it.
Piers in the ground 18 inches will offer very little lateral support of themselves. You can not count on the upper 12 or so inches providing much support when the soil gets wet from a lot of rain for example. Even if you don't need the depth for frost deeper may be better for stability assurance. But I'm not an engineer and this is getting into an engineers territory. A concrete footer about 16x16x8 is most often used. If gravel is used under the footing it must be well compacted... better IMO, to simply dig down and place the concrete on undisturbed soil.
Have a look at Bigfoot Footing Systems.
Some soils are not at all suited for piers which is one reason you don't find them listed as a accepted system
In case you have not seen it the entire IRC code is online for free.
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/index.htm (http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/index.htm)
Iy is what most states use, although some modify some parts. It is full of very useful information. Takes a little study at times, but then many worthwhile things do.
Quote from: MountainDon on November 27, 2012, 03:19:08 PM
Even if you don't need the depth for frost deeper may be better for stability assurance.
Understanding that you are "not an engineer", and there are soil variables, how deep would you feel is appropriate for the 12 x 12 piers? 2'-3' maybe? When it comes to the 16x24, I was planning on those being deeper, larger diameter, and 3 rows instead of 2.
I very much appreciate the input Don. From evrything I have read on other threads as well as my own, I can honestly say I value your opinions.
Quote from: DmnYnkee01 on November 27, 2012, 03:43:50 PM
Understanding that you are "not an engineer", and there are soil variables, how deep would you feel is appropriate for the 12 x 12 piers? 2'-3' maybe? When it comes to the 16x24, I was planning on those being deeper, larger diameter, and 3 rows instead of 2.
I very much appreciate the input Don. From evrything I have read on other threads as well as my own, I can honestly say I value your opinions.
since it is only a 12' run, I would pour (2) 16" wide by 18" deep footings with bolts or post brackets protruding.
It would probably not use anymore concrete than the pier, and you would not have to worry about the earth holding your lateral.
By my calculations, that would take approximately 80 bags of 80 lb concrate, 40 for each run. I am figuring about 4 bags per pier, so maybe 25 bags total, which is about $220 less concrete. I just can't justify in my mind spending $300+ just on concrete for a 12 x 12, then the manual mixing for 80 bags is a real turn off :-\
But then again, it's late, I'm tired, and my calcuations could be way off.
your calculation is right for the footings about 1.77 yards.
last time i ordered a concrete truck it was 95.00 a yard, no telling what it is now.
I've found my cement mixer to be one of my best investments. About $300 at Lowe's brand new and I can use it later for whatever i want. Or sell it after i'm done and recoup half of the investment......just a thought.
Looking forward to seeing your progress [cool] models!
No matter how you do the piers they will almost certainly not be as good a a continuous perimeter foundation.
Since your frost depth is so shallow, why not just do it the right way and never have to worry about it again
If you only have to go down 18", dig a trench around the perimeter - not much more digging than you're gonna do going deeper for all those piers. Lay out 2X4 or 2x6 forms inside the trench (depending on what you'll use for the framing as these can be re-used).
The continuous footer only needs to be 12" wide and 6" thick. 12ft X 12ft that's only 54 60 lb bags of concrete (41 if you use 80 lb bags). http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/howmuch/calculator.htm Yes it's some work, but very doable. I've done it with a 16 x 24 building, by myself.
Then dry stack 8x8x16 blocks w/ SBC and you have a real, code compliant, foundation that should last as long as you (and your kids). You could also mortar the blocks but that always seems to intimidate people even though it's easy.
Sometimes going the easy route ends up not being easier, or cheaper, in the long run.
Just my two cents.
All good ideas and info. I still want a crawl space I think. For continuous perimeter, 2 layers of block would get be about 4" above grade, in theory, so I would need 4 layers of block stacked on top of the footing @ approximately $70 per layer to get 20" of crawl space. Add that to the cost of the concrete, and that puts the total cost of foundation up around $500.
I know the foundation is an area where you don't want to cut corners, but I am on a shoestring budget. I was planning on tieing the piers together about 1/3 of the way up with 2x and then skirt, with heavy duty lattice or something along those lines. That was the reason for my 7" of cantilever, so I could cleanly skirt the underneath. I currently have budgeted about $250 for the 12x12 foundation, which includes the piers and beams.
Something like this is what I envisioned, I am just not very good at sketchup :)
(https://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u551/dmnynkee01/Foundation2.jpg)
Chris,
Currently building in NE OK just up the road from you. Our initial build is a 14x32 post and pier with a 6/12 roof.
I figured the OK frost line to be approx 18 inches to be safe. I hand dug 21 holes 24 inches deep and 24 inches round.
Seven holes per beam row with 3 beams planned.
I mixed two 80 bags of Quikrete per hole and added rebar so to tie in with the pier and let cure.
I mixed 1.5 bags of Quikrete per pier and set the appropriate size Simpson post bracket on top.
The pier was formed by cutting the bottom out of a 5 gallon bucket and setting that upside down on the cured footing.
I set the post bracket in the pier cement and used wood blocks across the bucket and thru the bracket so it would not sink.
Let sit for one day and move on to the next pier.
My plan and timing allowed me to sync my hole digging with the footing and pier pours. Dig a hole, pour the footing and let cure. Move onto the next hole dig, pour the footing and pour the first pier on the first footing once cured. That broke up the process and we saw immediate progress instead of a lot of holes or a lot of pours at once.
Once the piers were done, I positioned approximate P/T post lengths in each bracket and used the infamous "Water Level" to mark the
final post heights and made the final cuts securing them in place, straight and level. Amazing accuracy with the water level.
From there, we made 3 beams by combining two 2x8's with 1/2 inch plywood sandwiched in between.
With 2x8 floor joists and 3/4 inch T/G plywood sub-floor added, we went vertical from there.
I did add PT 4x4 angled bracing to each post and 2x6 angled bracing between the beams.
We ended up with a very solid base.
Since we will be slowly adding extensions on each end and side with shed-type roofs, enclosing the crawl space will be accomplished via the extensions. I avoided any cantilever ideas so I didn't restrict any weight concerns with the additions.
With your 12x12 drawing, add a center beam with post and pier and you will have an easier and cheaper time clearing any span calculations.
Hey, these are my thoughts and they are free. Good luck in your endeavor.
Howie
I understand budgets. My personal experience with many different things is that we sometimes have to scale back what we want because what we want is not possible within the budget limit we have have set. Sometimes it simply means a delay while we save up. Sometimes it means we make a decision to just do without the item altogether. Personal experience has also shown me the follies of taking shortcuts or buying something and stretching its capabilities beyond it design.
Some of my personal worst experiences have involved trying to do too much with too little and in taking on tasks I thought I knew well, but in reality did not.
If the readers here have read my entire cabin topic they will know I have acknowledged that I made an error when designing our cabin. I have taken some remedial actions however they are not providing the same quality end result as I could have had if I had approached things differently. My knowledge has grown along the journey. I try to pass it on. Whether or not anyone listens is not my personal worry I guess.
I think before you make any final decisions about your foundation you should read through this thread http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4952.0
The whole thread is interesting, with a very enthusiastic builder, but it starts to get especially interesting on page 9.
You have tornadoes in OK, right?
I'll throw in a gravel trench and treated wood crawlspace foundation. Stronger than piers, there's an approved method described in the codebook, and probably worth pricing out. It sounds like you could get 2 rips out of a sheet. I've dug footing trenches with a garden tiller before.
Ok, been playing with sketchup again. Thoughts on images below? 12" wide x 6" thick perimeter footer (thanks archimedes) , 18-24" deep, with 6x6 posts mounted on top of footer with post base. 8 Posts, approximately 36" tall, half in the ground and half out. Beams are triple 2x8's all the way around, and 4x4 bracing from posts to beams. Would price out around $500, also.
(https://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u551/dmnynkee01/foundation3.jpg)
(https://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u551/dmnynkee01/foundation4.jpg)
A good start, you have a continuous perimeter footing. Pretty easy to build more strength now.
This would be approaching code and considerably stronger than posts. You could build block corners 4' out of each corner, pour the corner and each end cell embedding an anchor bolt tied to upturned rebar from the footing. The girders would become single rims on sills with a pair of short headers inside the rims over the 4' gaps between the low wide piers.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/cmu12x12.jpg)
Building walls of some sort, even low wide wall sections, whether sheathed treated wood frames or masonry is going to be much stronger than a braced post. As an added benefit when the floor joists are on walls as opposed to girders you've eliminated a good deal of bounce in the floor.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/pwf12x12.jpg)
I did some reading on the treated wood foundation, and thought it was an interesting concept. As shown in your sketch, it would also price out around $500, but that is not including the gravel that is needed to work as a french drain for that type of foundation. I would estimate another $100-200 in gravel.
For the block foundation, I would like to stay away from that option. To me, concrete block and cabin in the woods don't fit together. I honestly have never liked the look of a block foundation. I suppose I could put a rock veneer of sorts on it at some point, but would still rather avoid that option.
If I am coming across as hard headed or stubborn, I apologize. I really tend to over think things, sometimes to a fault. :-\
The PWF is what I think I would have ended up using if at the time I knew what I know now.
I like rocks ;D
If you go with the braced posts on a strip footing I'd be tempted to run the braces from the post bottom up to the girder and have a 2x6 skirtboard down there to nail everything to. If it's down on concrete under load it isn't going to slip there. With a skillsaw you could half lap 4x6's and make big X's between posts as well. One thing to think about with posts on a thin strip of concrete, the footing is meant to be uniformly loaded and these will be point loads you don't want to "punch through". Digging a little deeper, smoothly, in the post areas and inserting some rebar in both directions under the post areas wouldn't hurt.
This is a drawing I had, it's another way to brace the posts, run them full height, up to the walltops and let the wall sheathing brace them. This is drawn on spot footings but would certainly be stronger on a continuous one, the shorter the posts below the floor the better, kneebraces certainly wouldn't hurt but notice this just eliminated a weak hinge point where your short post connects to the floor, this has a big lever buried up in the wall. Now rather than worrying about kneebraces slipping and the post to floor connection allowing the post to tip... we check the post for flexure, it's about the strength of materials then, we have a moment resisting connection.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/1624barn-2.jpg)
Quote from: DmnYnkee01 on November 28, 2012, 11:57:33 AM
I know the foundation is an area where you don't want to cut corners, but I am on a shoestring budget.
By the time you add up the PT posts, brackets, beams large enough to span a distance, there is usually very little to no difference in cost between most foundation methods including post and pier.
Concrete and mortar are two of the cheapest materials in building. They stand up great in a moist environment below grade. In my reading of the PT wood foundation guide, you are in a southern region which is more susceptible to termite and rot damage.
Why not just buy some mortar and build with stone? Cheap, aesthetically pleasing, stable, heavy. Very labor intensive though.
I guess I should ask. I'm from the East. When I hear the state OK, I think of high wind events. Is that a possibility in your area?
Yes, OK can have some high wind events, mostly from thunderstorms, which can also bring tornados. I believe the big tree in one of my ealier pictures was altually topped by a tornado in the past as it is not nearly as tall as you would expect with such a large base, 4-5' diameter.
I am actually starting to think the PWF might be the best way to go. It is a foundation, with the skirting built in, so that would also save some cost. I also see people giving away gravel on craigslist all the time around here, so I will try to aquire that way if I can. I will use gravel for the drive as well, so it can always be used.
What I have seen on the PWF, they don't use concrete, but use 2x as a footer. It said 2x6,8,10,12 should be used, depending on the load. Are there charts that have load specs for this? Replacing close to a yard of concrete with (4) 2x12x12 would also be a savings, and much easier than concrete with no cure time. Thoughts?
Another aspect of the PWF that I like, is it will give me the ability to build it in sections at home, and then transport to the site. I think I could have one 24"spacing on the gable end (lowest load area if I stay away from center) of the foundation where I could create an access door for the crawl space. I would have never even thought about using PWF if not for this site. Thank you all!
QuoteI also see people giving away gravel on craigslist all the time around here
You want rock with broken edges though as in crushed rock, not river gravel with rounded edges. Crushed rock will pack and lock.
if I started my build today, I would use a PWF.
Found an excellent resource online for the PWF. http://www.raisedfloorlivingpro.com/pdfs/publications/Permanent-Wood-Foundations-Design-and-Construction-Guide.pdf (http://www.raisedfloorlivingpro.com/pdfs/publications/Permanent-Wood-Foundations-Design-and-Construction-Guide.pdf) In case anyone else reading this thread is interested.
Looking through this, my application would only require a 2x8 for the footer, but I think I will do 2x10 (still cheaper and easier than messing with concrete!). It calls for gravel of the smaller size. Too bad, as I found 1"-1 1/2" gravel (crushed rock) here local for $50, per pickup load, that someone was needing to get rid of.
I am already working on getting a quote for rental of a Terramite 8ft backhoe. If reasonable, I may go that route instead of trying to dig 44 feet of trench by hand. We may be able to get back out there on Sunday, as the weather looks like it will be perfect. I want to get more "thinning" ;) done, and stake out rough locations for the micro and macro and get a better idea on any grade I need to consider.
That's the guide I had in mind, but couldn't find. (Didn't take the time to find :-[ )
I built a 12x16 manshed here in Tulsa a couple of years ago. I used 8" sonotubes and beams. I worry about it folding over in a tornado, but seems solid so far.
If I were to do it again, I think I would use a PWF. The only problem there is finding the correct wood. The wolmanized finder app seems to say that the closest dealers are in either Tx or MO, so I wonder about the cost.
There are other branded names of PT that is foundation rated. You do have to ask for it as not too many places carry it in stock. I found a local dealer who would order it in and the price was quite reasonable.
When I built mine I just went to the local building supply and they were able to order it for me.
I think either Fox or Forrest here in OKC will be able to order for me.
A person should be able to use standard treated lumber for the double top plates, correct? Zinc coated fasteners would work, but stainless is best, correct?
What would be the best method for treating/sealing any cuts made that will be below grade?
I used PWF materials for all of the foundation including double top plates. The cost difference was not that bad.
Just when I thought I had a plan, looks like I may be back to the drawing board. You would have thought I was speaking in Swahili when I asked if they could order in foundation grade PT lumber, I even specified .60 and not the .40 that they carried in stock. Of the 5 places I called, only 1 seemed to have a clue, but said he would most likely have to order it in full bunks. That would put my $500 foundation up around $10,000, lol.
I am still waiting for a couple of calls back, but it doesn't look good. >:(
I ran into the same issue of bunk quantites when I went to try and order from lowes. Try the local lumber yards, thats where i was able to buy whatever quantity I wanted.
DmnYnkee01...
FIY, in most areas (by code) the live load requirements for living spaces are 40#/sf and for sleeping spaces #30/sf. Figuring a dead load of 10#, to get 50# total load with SYP#2 you would need to space the 2x8's at 12"oc.
I am seeing 12' 10" maximum span for 50#/sf on 2x8#2 SYP at 16" oc using the link provided by Mtn Don, which still surpasses my span by 2'+, however, I think 40#/sf is more than reasonable for how we are going to use the space, and how often if will be used. I am comfortable using 2x8's for my floor joists. I just need to decide on my foundation at this point. I found a place closer to the site that would be able to do half bunks...still doesn't help me.
I think I am back to the piers, but using 6x6 up to the beams.
Hmmm... The IRC Table 502.3.1 indicates the same thing as the AWC. ??? I know there has been some downgrading on southern pine, perhaps tha has something to do with this? ??? It is always good to have another person who knows how to look at plans, ideas and proposed designs that come along.
The 2x8's are fine for full 40 lb LL+ 10lb DL @16"oc even if #2 SPF, from the codebook table. I've done it in true #2 Hem-Fir which is rated for right at 12', and it did feel like a minimal floor. In SYP it feels and is fine.
I'm not a fan of balancing a post on a pier, what about perimeter pony walls of some type in the pier saddles. Plywood sheathing walls is going to brace them better than trying to brace posts. I'd use treated for those parts but the would be above ground. Foundation grade might be sticks you can select out of the bundles already in the store. It is simply .60 retention with no heartwood, find the pile and see if you can pull out enough saps.What height are you trying to get between the pier saddle and the underside of the floor?
I'm happier with my piers now that I built a shear wall between some of them. That would be much easier to do now than later like I did. A half sheet of 3/4 PT plywood, above ground like Don_P said, would probably be the minimum height you'd want to use. One 4x8 = 2- 2x8. Frame it like a short stud wall. If you make the floor joists line up with one side or the other of the pier then a sheet can cover the joist, extend down over the wall framing and lap over the pier. Nail in every three inches. LINK... (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.msg164063#msg164063) I did not take many pictures, but would be happy to see what drawings I might still have someplace.
It's not as good as a real PWF because the shear wall is shorter, but I'd wager it would be better than any other pier foundation in this forum.
I don't have a specific height I am trying to get to, but want enough room the be able to get under there and insulate. I also need to be mindful of how the 16 x 24 will sit and tie in to the 12 x 12, even though it may be a couple of years before breaking ground on the larger. I figure the crawl space would be about 12" to 24" depending on the grade.
If I were to sit a pony wall in the pier saddles, then I would need to level about 40 studs before adding the top plates. Would it make more sense to just level the posts, then wall between the posts, and use top plates and sheathing over all?
That would work, the pier is still there and not a great thing but if you're going to do it this at least puts something better braced and connected between the floor and the pier than a post and kneebraces alone. In other words I would rather see you on a prescriptive foundation but if you are not going that route it is not necessary to revert all the way back to an unbraced or poorly braced post design, that seems to be the default position of many when rejecting a conventional foundation. There are aspects of the pwf and postframe that can probably help improve on that. So that's sort of where my thoughts are headed.
If you look at post frame construction there is a skirtboard, usually a treated 2x12 running around the perimeter across and attached to the posts at grade. The sheathing, in that case ribbed metal, is connected from the bottoms of the posts to the eaves, that is very good lateral bracing. The framing posts run continuously too. Anything you can do to sheath the entire wall and make it act as a unit is going to make it stronger. The stud framing is keeping the sheathing from buckling out of plane when the wall is trying to rack. Running the bottom 4' row of sheathing up onto the walls, blocking the edges and going up from there with untreated sheathing would help tie it together. Stepping way out there, you could balloon frame walls from the pier saddles to the eaves.
Wasn't able to get out there this weekend. The hot water shower valve in our master bath failed Sunday morning, so I had to spend the morning fixing it, which killed our trip out to the site. Keeping our fingers crossed for good weather this coming Sunday, so we can try again.
As far as foundation.... Since I am planning on 10' sidewalls with the cabins, by sheathing the foundation and up 2' on the stucture walls, it will work out well when it comes time to sheath the rest. Would that be sufficient for tying things together and having a well braced foundation?
Well, it's a step along the path. The sheathed walls accept and distribute the load better than individual highly loaded kneebraces. So for that portion of the foundation I'm confident that you have it adequately built and braced. To make it prescriptive refer to section R602.9 on cripple walls
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_6_par026.htm?bu2=undefined
It should still be on a continuous foundation. The drawing in the text shows a stemwall from the footing to just above grade and the sheathed cripple wall between stemwall and floor. What they are trying to develop in those minimums is adequate resistance to sliding or overturning. The spot piers are still a problem in that regard. I was talking with an engineer about this, his thought was a gravel filled trench with a couple of courses of ICF foam forms that run 4' out of each corner. If you read the footing part of the precast foundation section with a little squint you can get there, I like the bracing aspect over piers. I'd bet an ICF dealer would have that in leftovers.
I think it's worth pointing out at this point that a piece of 3/4" PT plywood runs about $37 (and that's for conventional PT not PWF PT). You'll need 1.5 sheets per side, or about $56 per side. And that's before you buy all the 2x4's, posts, piers, and Simpson brackets ( if you haven't already priced them, Mr. Simpson doesn't give his stuff away cheap)
Doing the foundation in block you would need 9 blocks per row, probably 3 rows high per side (maybe 4) so 27 - 36 blocks. That's about $30 - $40 per side for the blocks. Plus about a bag of mortar per side at $3- $4 a bag.
You will have a substantially better, stronger, safer, and cheaper, foundation when you're done.
I know when the fever to start building bites, it's hard to resist. But sometimes it's better to slow down and consider your options.
You have gotten some very good advice in this thread.
And now I'll shut up. ;) d*
If the appearance of the concrete block wall is a factor in not choosing that, it can be covered... furring strips and metal roof/wall panels for example.
How difficult is it to make forms for a poured foundation? Can you just fill a continuous trench, and just have forrms at grade for prepping to accept walls? Or do you need to pour the footing, then come back later with the foundation wall? I just verified that the concrete truck will be able to get to my site. There is a fairly steep hill getting there, which had me concerned. Right now, conrete is at $87/yard, with a $45 delivery charge for less than 4 yards.
Regardless of which direction I go, I will not be mixing the concrete myself. [cool]
$87 a yard is a good price, that's good news.
The reason why I suggested CMU's is because it's a pretty simple DIY project. You could build forms and pour the whole thing, but I think you're starting to get beyond a simple DIY, IMHO. Doesn't mean it can't be done, just takes a little more skill.
The money you spend renting or building forms could be spent on the block. Then there's no tear down or return of the forms necessary. Dry stack the block, surface bonding cement to cover the blocks, if you don't like the look. You could even fill the blocks if you want a sold concrete foundation, but not necessary.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=surface+bonding+cement&view=detail&mid=56C4DE5A4504A0D0A40F56C4DE5A4504A0D0A40F&first=0
I hate the color they used in the above video, but you can use any color you like, or no color at all.