Greetings to forum members! First off, I've browsed and searched through the site, and am amazed at how much material is available...thanks to its community & members. This really is an asset.
My wife and I are about to begin an adventure by building a sub 200 sq ft "cabin" (12'x16') on our 2 acre lot up on Mt Hood (~3,000 ft elevation). It's been in my name longer than I've been alive, but even though I'm "grand father'd" we don't want to face all the permitting requirements, as we would like to build a larger residence later sometime, and while I've worked as a mechanic and welder, I have little experience in homebuilding besides some projects. Had plans to start last Summer, but the place needed to be cleaned up which took a good deal of time (okay...A LOT of time). Finally graduating after 12 years of University, and sprinting into the career marathon had some leverage on my spare time as well... Already have most the tools including saws, ladders, welders, generator, air compressors, common sense, etc.
Anyhow, we plan to use our "Big Enchilada" kit, and the 12'x18' plans. I swung by the county planning department to inquire about building a sub 200 sq ft "utility" building. Already figure'd out where to place the building, but still have about 2' of snow on the ground. Will be shooting for something like Bishopknight did with his cabin: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4569.0.
According to the Planning Department, my frost depth is 24", and the required snow load is 150 lbs with wind rating requirements at 94.5 mph gust. I am assuming that I will need to upgrade my materials to 2"x6" instead of 2"x4", and follow the "sonotube" or "cold climate" footings as per: http://countryplans.com/foundation/index.html. I am still considering whether it would be best to add a third row of footings for additional footing, and offset/increase the footings to nine (9) instead of six (6).
Also have to figure out how to meet the State of Oregon requirement that the middle/midline of the roof (between the crown and eaves) must be 10' from the bottom of the "finished floor"/bottom of structure. All three (3) planners had different definitions on this one, but I want to make certain that I'm staying kosher. Plan to use metal roofing, and figure that this will allow me to adjust angles/extend eves if necessary.
Any ideas, recommendations, or additional insight would be much appreciated! Thanking you all in advance!
Property Shots:
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/P8182255.jpg)
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/P8182251.jpg)
Let us know what you find out about that rule - it doesn't seem easy to understand - does that mean a low pitch roof - in a high snow load area?
I am originally from Lincoln City.
Yeah, all I could understand was that regardless of <200 sq ft, the mid line of the roof (from crown to eaves) could not be more than 10 ft from the finished floor. Nowhere in any of the county handouts (nor OAR's) could I find anything regarding this, but got numerous answers from the planning department from "finished floor", "ground", and "bottom of structure not including pillars".
That's a hard one to understand. ???
Are they really meaning that the 10 foot distance is a maximum distance from the floor to the roof, and not a minimum distance, or even an exact measurement. I could maybe understand if it was a minimum distance, and that would be easy to meet.
If it's a maximum that seems nuts; it would totally make it impossible to make a 10 ft high interior ceiling height for example. Plus it seems screwy in light of the need to build to 150 lb snow figures. Steep would be a good roof for those conditions.
Best of luck on sorting that out and I'm really interested in knowing the answer.
Don't ya just love red tape?
... and you have nice trees. :)
Beautiful lot . . .
Thanks guys. Got alot to figure out, and am waiting for the snow to recede.
Any guidance as to my foundation post quandry? Was planning on doing another row of posts (9 instead of 6), but I dont want to just waste money. With a frost line depth of 24", I was going to go 36" with the 10" sonotubes, and then do the 6"x6" PTW posts to the crossbeams using Simpson brackets to "adjust height as necessary".
Am I on the right page with this reasoning, or is it advisable to simply level out the concrete posts directly to the crossbeams? It would be nice to allow some adjustability in case of settling...
Are you saying, put a short post between a sono tube and beam? ??? I think you would loose some strenght. Having it like that sound like a place to flex. Putting the beam directly on your sono tubes would be more secure. you could still use an adjustable connector if you think theres a need.
Number One; correctly done footings will not require adjustments. Leveling the tops of the poured concrete can be done if you take your time and properly brace the sonotubes so they do not move when you pour and tamp the concrete.
The number of footings and piers/posts required depends on the ability of the ground to bear the loads and the size of the beams being placed on the piers/posts. If your soil is average the way John has drawn the plans will be sufficient, depending on approval from the local permit department.
Footings 36 " deep should work fine.
Glad I asked. I was already reconsidering that idea as it seemed somewhat counterintuitive, and began wondering why I couldnt just go straight to the concrete posts (plan to use 10" sonotubes, and make due with eight (8) footings on two crossbeams). Just more concerned with the snow loads, etc. Any better ideas?
Almost forgot...what am I looking at to meet the 150 lb snow load requirement? I'm assuming something more than 2x4 framing and perhaps more than 2x8 crossbeams, etc...Planning on 2x6 framing, but am unsure regarding the 2x8 crossbeams and rafters.
I'm going to guess that that loading will require and answer from a local pro - not sure if anyone here has had to deal with that.
Also the funny requirements there as to roof height may make that mandatory. A truss company may be the cheapest way to get that accomplished.
The AWC calculator...
http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/reversecalc/reversecalc.asp (http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/reversecalc/reversecalc.asp)
or
http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp (http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp)
... indicates that for a gable roof, 12 foot wall to wall distance, 6 foot horizontal rafter span, 16" OC rafter spacing, deflection L/240, snow load 150 PSF, 10 LSF dead load....
S-P-F #2, 2x6 lumber will meet the specs. 2x6 is at the limit though, so 2x8 would provide a measure of security. 2x6 at 12" OC would also be better but not as good as 2x8 at 16" OC.
You still need to clear up that 10 foot number to see just what it is they mean. ???
As the county planner described it on a napkin (I'm not joking):
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/CabinRule.jpg)
What's funny, is that NONE of the public material mentions the 10' rule, and I searched the Oregon Code to no avail...I'm going to have to reconfim this with upper management who might be able to describe it on tissue paper for a more formal description.
Thanks for the great tool (AWC calculator)! I saw where it was referenced in a thread, but didnt see it linked.
Will have to think about the 2x6 vs 2x8 issue. 2x8 will eat up ALOT of space, and a metal roof it might help with the load as well. Any additional thoughts would be much appreciated.
Had'nt thought of a truss company, but its something I'll definitely look into it...as always it depends on costs! I do have access to a 5 ton military wrecker (crane) for mounting trusses if needed...did some backyard gardening last year with it.
With it being stated that it's a minimum of 10 feet, that should be workable without too much bother.
Okay. Got clarification from 5 county planners today as I was driving back from Olympia.
The 10 foot "rule" states that the maximum distance from the "finished floor" (where one stands) and the "median height" of the roof...
So my concerns are a little alleviated, but will probably be forced to use 7' walls and low eaves to meet this requirement.
Any other ideas would be much appreciated.
11' on one side, 9 on the other, living roof with 2x12 rafters 12" on center. Build a loft that floats in the middle (doesn't touch the walls) so that the bottom space gets nice light. Those are my ideas anyway ;D
Quote from: Jens on February 24, 2009, 12:43:51 AM
11' on one side, 9 on the other, living roof with 2x12 rafters 12" on center. Build a loft that floats in the middle (doesn't touch the walls) so that the bottom space gets nice light. Those are my ideas anyway ;D
Could you elaborate? Kinda lost me with the 11/9 thing...and 12" rafters?
Quote from: DirtyLittleSecret on February 23, 2009, 11:45:12 PM
Okay. Got clarification from 5 county planners today as I was driving back from Olympia.
The 10 foot "rule" states that the maximum distance from the "finished floor" (where one stands) and the "median height" of the roof...
So my concerns are a little alleviated, but will probably be forced to use 7' walls and low eaves to meet this requirement.
Any other ideas would be much appreciated.
That's a stupid rule!
There I feel better. ;) I really do have trouble
understanding why it's a maximum distance? ???
Seven foot ceiling height is going to feel cramped, IMO. BTW, that is the bare minimum code height for finished floor to lowest projection from the ceiling. Sort of precludes the use of any ceiling fans and limits ceiling light fixtures too.
That 10 foot distance would also mean nobody could build a room with a ten foot ceiling height and that is a commonplace feature in many upper scale homes I've seen. ???
You have all my sympathies in dealing with that rule. :(
You can access online versions of the Oregon 2008 code (no print, no save)
HERE. (http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/oregon/08_Residential/08Res_Frameset.html)
Sorry bout that. Shed roof, one wall is 11', the opposite wall is 9'. Run 2x12 rafters, 12 or 16" on center, gives good support for a living roof, especially one with snow on it. BTW, I can't remember how much snow is common up there. Snow held onto the living roof, will actually increase the R value of the roof. Run a few ceiling joists at the loft height, probably 7' or so, and have the loft itself just sit in the center of the room, not touching the walls...just a thought. Or it could be a twin bed deep loft along the high side, more of a bunk. Then again, set a queen sized loft at one end, at 5-6', and have closet and seating underneath. IDK, just thoughts.
See the shed roofed idea here http://www.jshow.com/y2k/listings/29.html
Quote from: Jens on February 25, 2009, 10:10:39 AM
Sorry bout that. Shed roof, one wall is 11', the opposite wall is 9'. Run 2x12 rafters, 12 or 16" on center, gives good support for a living roof, especially one with snow on it. BTW, I can't remember how much snow is common up there. Snow held onto the living roof, will actually increase the R value of the roof. Run a few ceiling joists at the loft height, probably 7' or so, and have the loft itself just sit in the center of the room, not touching the walls...just a thought. Or it could be a twin bed deep loft along the high side, more of a bunk. Then again, set a queen sized loft at one end, at 5-6', and have closet and seating underneath. IDK, just thoughts.
See the shed roofed idea here http://www.jshow.com/y2k/listings/29.html
Got it now. Very good idea going with the shed roof, but I think my wife would kill me with the snowload being so high (150 lb). My original idea was to simply do a steep pitch and simply lower the eaves (say 2-2.5" eaves) to MAKE it fit the 10' maximum requirement. This would effectively lower the "center/middle" of the roofline while allowing for a fair loft.
you could put half of the house underground, put in a false floor, get it checked off, then remove the floor!
BTW, I can't imagine the described roof not taking that snow load. Not saying you or your wife want it, just that it shouldn't be a problem. Here is the chance for an engineer to chime in ;D
The AWC calculator comes up with 2x12 of most commonly species being okay 12" OC with 150 lbs snow load, 15 lb dead load, L/240, in #2 or better. 12 foot span was used.
I was curious, to say the leastm about what that 10 foot rulw would mean for a 12 foot wide cabin. So I drew it out on paper. I show three different pitches, 4:12. 10:12, 10:12. I don't like the 12:12 as the extra overhang needed to meet that 10 foot rule drops the eves down too low, IMO. It gets in the way of the windows. It would appear the 10:12 would work.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/construction/10foot-rule.jpg)
Do FWIW, there it is.
Figure'd its about time to share what's been accomplished thus far...
Got the well replumbed with new pipe, fittings, pump, and exterior piping to two freeze proof spigots. Trenched 150', and used PEX for the runout. Used a 1HP Harbor Freight pump for now, and have good pressure. Since the county told me that there is a "lost power line" in this vicinity, and they were not able to locate it, I decided to hand dig the trench 3'. Glad that part is over!
Poured 56 bags of 80# Quickrete 5000 into 10" tubes with BF24 footers for the foundation. Dirty work, but glad I'll never worry about whether its enough. I know my bracing wasnt perfect, but it worked. Used the Simpson mounts CF66(?) as PEG and Don advised, and let it cure for a week. A BIG thank you from everyone thus far for all the sage advice. Used a great deal of your input, and for a novice Ive got some results. Also found that my local lumber yard does carry Advantex (but nobody here in the NW is listed with them). Used Simpson strong ties everywhere I could, etc...
BTW: Is there a general rule in regards to cross bracing these floors? Every other joist @ 45 degrees or something of the sort?
The last two days I got busy and got thus far:
Jerry rigged bracing for concrete:
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/IMG00099.jpg)
Joists (2x10 @ 16" o/c):
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/IMG00102.jpg)
Subflooring done!
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/IMG00104.jpg)
Looks great!
You mixed all that concrete AND dug 150' trench by hand? Man...you have got to be ready for a vacation! :o
Yeah, a little tired, but I kinda wanted to do much of the grunt work by hand (a good excuse). Finally got the ok from work to finally take a few days off next month and will give a good college try...
Have a few questions though, and hope that I can bother you all some more. Figure there are so many opportunities wasted by projects which never got the insight of those with the experience of "coulda, woulda, shoulda". If anyone can see anything needing changing, or have some neat ideas please share!
Will be "prebuilding" the two gable walls on the deck before vacation time to get a head start on things. Curious whether its a good idea to add hurricane ties (ie: H 2.5's) for the 2x6 studs? Planning to use 2x8's @ 16' o/c for the ceiling joists (for a double loft) and rafters since I want it stout for snow country.
Had a few days off after a week in DC, and got to swinging...decided to go with the Huber Zip System siding and roofing rather than the standard sheets/tar paper (nothing wrong with it though I was physically limited as is!).
Camping spot w/ BBQ:
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/P6182573.jpg)
2x6 framing (was a heavy lift):
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/P6182571.jpg)
More framing:
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/P6182572.jpg)
Sheeting up, and scratching my head on the rafters (2x8x12's). Had two books that made little sense. Finally told myself that this wasnt rocket science and sharpened my pencil to figure it out...unfortunately I think I overlooked one issue...the gable overhangs. Should I just cut out slots for 2x6 crossmembers with my recip saw and knock them in? Or, is there a better/easier way?
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/P6202579.jpg)
Anyone got some ideas as to how I should add the support members for the outside rafters (24" overhang)?
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/P6212581.jpg)
As it sits today:
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/P6212584.jpg)
BTW: I'm new to all of this so go easy on me for the oversight. I've learned that a 10:12 roof makes for heavy work with 4x8' sheeting, and one can never have enough nails or Zip tape. Most of what I've applied I learned by browsing this site and my doodle pad. If I'm missing anything please let me know. Next on my list is finishing the roof sheeting, gables, metal roofing, and hardipanel siding.
I assume they are there but do you have ceiling joists to keep the walls from spreading? They don't seem to show in the picture.
I assume you could brace the overhangs with soffit framing. (Note that I am a structural steel guy that knows enough about framing only to be dangerous).
http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14044/css/14044_47.htm check this out.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/14044_47_1.jpg)
Quote from: glenn kangiser on June 24, 2009, 12:21:52 AM
http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14044/css/14044_47.htm check this out.
Thanks Glenn . . . This is one of the most informative construction sites I have seen.
http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14044/index.htm (http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14044/index.htm)
/
Table 802.5.1(9) in the IRC codebook gives the minimum connection required in the joint between rafter and ceiling joist depending on snow load.
This is a calc I put together after a class on rafter/ceiling joist design, I suspect your snowload is going to be off the chart.
http://windyhilllogworks.com/Calcs/Sloped%20Rafter%20Design%20for%20Bending1.htm
I like Glenn's pic better I might steal it and put it on top of the page, I'm assuming that is a government publication?
The right side shoe on most skillsaws is 1-1/2" from edge of saw to edge of shoe. This would give you a 1-5/8" plunge cut for notching for the lookouts then a sawzall for the vertical parts of the notch. That would give a better cut. Then rip some shim to take up the difference and put it under the lookout.
The ridge should be wide enough to extend to the bottom of the rafter plumb cuts and then the hardware is unneccessary. Not trying to pick it apart just save folks looking on some bucks and possible inspector trouble.
Here's another valuable on-line building manual (PDF) that has been linked to before.
http://www.awc.org/pdf/WCD1-300.pdf
The tpub link above was not very readable on my computer for some reason.
Hey Don_P! Thanks for the great Rafter Design chart you worked up!
Glad to have someone here with this kind of information. Much appreciated :D :D :D :D
Question: Could DLS use exposed rafter ties at alternative rafters to handle the outward thrust? And, could he get enough nails in to handle the shear? (I assume that as snow loads accumulate that this will likely be the limiting factor.) This way he could have a more open feel to this little building.
thanks John, I haven't checked any of DLS's numbers on it , just stuck it up there. I recall he was talking about a loft floor so we probably aren't seeing everything in the pics. At 150 psf that 4' eaves overhang needs checking too.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on June 24, 2009, 12:21:52 AM
I assume they are there but do you have ceiling joists to keep the walls from spreading? They don't seem to show in the picture.
I assume you could brace the overhangs with soffit framing. (Note that I am a structural steel guy that knows enough about framing only to be dangerous).
http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14044/css/14044_47.htm check this out.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/14044_47_1.jpg)
Thanks for all the great stuff guys. I did add ceiling joists (pbucket wont load right now, but there are 7 joists w/ 2x8's).
Poor photo:
(https://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/gstupid/P6182575.jpg)
Does anyone have an example of the soffit framing? I'm assuming this is different from the lookout design? Sounds like I need to plan on notching out my rafters this weekend and wrapping up the gables.
Quote from: Don_P on June 24, 2009, 09:21:38 AM
The right side shoe on most skillsaws is 1-1/2" from edge of saw to edge of shoe. This would give you a 1-5/8" plunge cut for notching for the lookouts then a sawzall for the vertical parts of the notch. That would give a better cut. Then rip some shim to take up the difference and put it under the lookout.
Good to know. Any idea as to what distance to have the lookouts? I'm assuming every 24" along the rafter?
All ideas are welcomed.
I generally go 2' centers when doing gable overhangs that way. In heavy snow country they should really be up on edge atop an angled gable rake wall, there's ~640lbs bearing on each flatways 2x6 at design load. If you ever see that much snow don't be too suprised if it doesn't make it. A couple of brackets under there would help if you are concerned, look around at Arts and Crafts period homes as you drive around for ideas.
For a level soffit, which would be the best structural thing here apply the subfascia, stringline it and adjust it straight. Run a level from the subfascia back to the building wall at each end and snap a line down the wall. That is the bottom of a 2x4 ledger nailed at each stud. Lookouts are nailed alongside each rafter tail back to the ledger. I usually box the ends of the level soffit at the building line, some folks carry that "pork chop" out to the end of the overhang at the gables, looks too heavy to me on steep pitches with large overhangs though. Apply finish fascia and soffit. If that didn't make sense I can probably find an old photo.
It looks like the ceiling/floor joists are tied to the wall studs and not the rafters, that is a weaker connection there, maybe a few long oly screws down thru the plates into the cj's. Also the joists need to bear on a ledger or something so the floor weight is not just hanging on nails.
Quote from: Don_P on June 25, 2009, 10:56:21 AM
I generally go 2' centers when doing gable overhangs that way. In heavy snow country they should really be up on edge atop an angled gable rake wall, there's ~640lbs bearing on each flatways 2x6 at design load. If you ever see that much snow don't be too suprised if it doesn't make it. A couple of brackets under there would help if you are concerned, look around at Arts and Crafts period homes as you drive around for ideas.
Interesting. Do you have any examples of how this would be constructed? Is it similiar to pg 43 (figure 53):http://www.awc.org/pdf/WCD1-300.pdf?
For a level soffit, which would be the best structural thing here apply the subfascia, stringline it and adjust it straight. Run a level from the subfascia back to the building wall at each end and snap a line down the wall. That is the bottom of a 2x4 ledger nailed at each stud. Lookouts are nailed alongside each rafter tail back to the ledger. I usually box the ends of the level soffit at the building line, some folks carry that "pork chop" out to the end of the overhang at the gables, looks too heavy to me on steep pitches with large overhangs though. Apply finish fascia and soffit. If that didn't make sense I can probably find an old photo.
Made sense enough to me...
It looks like the ceiling/floor joists are tied to the wall studs and not the rafters, that is a weaker connection there, maybe a few long oly screws down thru the plates into the cj's. Also the joists need to bear on a ledger or something so the floor weight is not just hanging on nails.
I did use Simpson hangers for the joists, and added solid bridging. Would lag screws be appropriate for adding strength to the ceiling joists?
Yes, Fig 53 is what I was describing as the best way to frame the overhang.
This is a couple of shots of some support brackets I made to hold up a little shade roof, they were often used as supports under gable overhangs.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/penthouse.jpg)
They are quite strong if you mortise and tennon the brace in.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/locust.jpg)
I really can't tell from the pics exactly how the cj's are framed.