New Well

Started by Mo, January 03, 2007, 07:23:17 PM

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glenn-k

Hey Don -- if I wanted to catch my own rainwater, they would play hell stopping me from doing it on my own land. >:(

Mo

That is right, getting it cleaned out is the problem, when he was blowing it it didn't come out. Is there other ways of cleaning it out?  

I do have 1620 square feet of metal to harvest from, I might have to rethink this :-/



MountainDon

Quote

I do have 1620 square feet of metal to harvest from,  :-/
That'll work as long as it rains. It's possible to build your own ferro-cement stoage tank. My only problem with that would be preventing freeze damage in winter... I haven't looked into all that much yet. If anybody has tips I'd be glad to hear 'em.  A well sure has some advantages over collection.

glenn-k

I assume he is losing his air and water into the formation.  It may or may not produce water - It could just produce it then lose it but you may be able to get it if the bottom is not losing it all.

Yes there is another way of cleaning it out.  It will work with very little water in the well.  He has to put 2 pipes down the well - a small one and a big one.  I have used 3 inch and 4 inch for the big one - smaller would work - probably wouldn't want under 2 inch but I would prefer 3 as a minimum.  For a shallow well the small one could be as small as 1/2 inch but I would prefer 3/4 or 1 inch .  The first thing to g into the well would be a manifold with the small pipe elbowed into the large pipe.  As an alternate method the big pipe can be put into the well near the  bottom then the small one can go inside of it.  I prefer the small one on the outside.  After the mainifold is put into the well then he will begin adding sections of pipe to both the small one and the big one.  
the small one is an air line - the big one is the blow pipe where water and sediment from the bottom of the well come out.  Continue adding pipe to both the large and small until it hits the bottom.  Short sections may be necessary  to keep the big one from sticking up too high.  It canbe under great pressure when the water first comes out and can fold over backwards if it is not secured -- not so bad on a shallow well but wild on a big one.  Around 125 cfm compressor would be ideal but probably a bit less or a larger one would also work.  this shouldn't be a problem for a driller.

This is called a double pipe air lift and it will keep the air from being lost in the formation and bring up even small amounts of water.  A check valve at the bottom of the small pipe will keep it from plugging up with sand if the air is shut off and the well is surged ot open it up.


Mo

Thank you so much, the driller had talked about using the fire departments pump truck, he had never had this problem before. I googled and found this
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/EDISImagePage?imageID=723145048&dlNumber=WI001&tag=IMAGE%20WI:WI001F9&credits=

I can do this if need be. how much water will a 90' deep 7" hole hold if I don't have water and have to divert my rain water somewhere?

Also there is a gas well about 500' from where we drilled, the gas company refractured it about a year ago would that effect the ground enough since the coal seem is at such a shallow depth?

MountainDon

#31
Quote
I can do this if need be. how much water will a 90' deep 7" hole hold if I don't have water and have to divert my rain water somewhere?
Pi   r  squared  times length  = vol of cylinder    
r= radius and length in same units of measurement,   Pi = 3.142 repeating decmal forever
so that's about 180 gallons.

glenn-k

That is exactly it, Mo.

Note that the small pipe can go inside of the big pipe also if necessary due to size or any other reason - you will have to deal with a giant surge of water at the top.  If it is pushed below the big pipe air will go outside and it will not pump - this is sometimes done to surge the well and knock the dirt loose.  Usually I do it the oother way and after the water is pumping it can be shut off allowing the water to fall down the pipe then restart it to surge and clean it.  I usually weld a elbow over a hole on the side of the big pipe about  two or three feet above the bottom but the effect is the same.  The air mixes with the water making it light so unmixed water rushes in the bottom and it all becomes mixed with air and light so it is pushed out the top.  

Assuming sufficient water, and pumping level at 1 to 1 submergence you would get about 1 gallon of water per cubic foot of air --- 2 to 1 submergence will give around 2 gallons of water per cubic foot of air.  If you don't have that much water then lots of air will push whatever is there out.  This is rule of thumb stuff and varies widely.

Anything done to a nearby well can affect your well or groundwater.  I have had my air go underground and come up a well 150 feet away.  They can communicate underground.  They can also be totally separate and sealed if theirs is much deeper and the fracturing was done at a deep depth.  I have seen distant earthquakes break wells in the area i used to drill in.  Actually earthquakes in Japan and other places recently were said to relieve stresses at Yellowstone National Park.

It's a small world after all.  Sorry about that -- now the song is probably going through your head isn't it? :-/ :)

MountainDon

#33
Forgot to mention that the formula will get you the cu.inches then go here http://www.foreign-trade.com/resources/volume.cfm  and plug in the cu.in. and read the table for gallons, liters, whatever.

and would somebody please tell Joni to go home....


glenn-k

Don did the calc that I forgot -- one thing -- I would get a tank if you are down to storing rainwater.  The well if it had water but now does not is losing water into a fracture in the ground.  It would likely take all the water you can give it and keep on going.

If the bottom of the well is losing water it can be plugged with bentonite pellets then maybe you can recover the water from 25 feet - if that is the case you should be able to see the water falling with a mirror and shining the sunlight into the well.  We could see hundreds of feet sometimes that way.  Don't put in too much bentonite if you use it - it could plug off the whole well.  

Check your personal messages at the top of the page-- I will send you my phone number if the driller has any questions.

Mo

 ::)It is quite odd but that is the third time today that song has filled my empty noggin.

As for harvesting if it rained 1" and I had diverted my roof to the empty hole in the ground it would overflow by approximately 700 gallons so I would need a bigger hole.


glenn-k

Thought I'd put the air lift here so we can see what we are talking about.




MountainDon

#37
Quote
If the bottom of the well is losing water it can be plugged with bentonite pellets
It's good to hear there's a good use for bentonite. Once I sat for a whole day in the 4x4 waiting for the sun to dry the ground out enough to make it safe to go down a dugway in Utah. Was even worse trying to go up. The ground there had a layer of bentonite just laying there waiting for an unsuspecting jeep and a rain squall.

Mo

If the water is at the top would lining the rest of the well with solid pipe and closing off the bottom keep the water in?  

I was thinking of putting in a 1000 gallon storage tank and pumping from the well and harvesting from the roof. I think that would be enough.


glenn-k

Nothing much slipperier than bentonite.  I used it once in a while if I was in massive amounts of sand and couldn't drill through - sometimes it helped thicken things up a bit and stop it from flowing into the borehole.

desdawg

If I am not mistaken 1 cu. Ft of water is 7.5 gallons or thereabouts. And you may not have the right to the water under your land but what lands on your roof is fair game.

glenn-k

#41
QuoteIf the water is at the top would lining the rest of the well with solid pipe and closing off the bottom keep the water in?  

No - the bentonite would be the only way to seal the bottom - ok - not the only way, but a good way.  The driller could fill the bottom of the well back up to ja few feet below  the point where he knew he was getting water then pour some bentonite on top or cement bags to seal it.  Being a small well the cement bags wouldn't work well - I used them in larger wells.  The water would go down the outside of the pipe and get away anyway.  The bentonite without the pipe would seal the actual lower borehole and seal off the fractures.  It would probably be easiest to fill the bottom with pea gravel then put about 5 feet of bentonite on top if necessary.  Before going to that trouble I would double pipe it and clean it first.  It may have no problem other than taking all the drillers air and water - it may still produce water with no problem  - just a hole in the formation that will not let the driller get the water to the top with air.  

Note that if he is a rotary driller he could use his drill stem as the big pipe if it is large enough -- then all he has to do is add a small air line down the center to bring the water up if he has a way to hold it up.

glenn-k

#42
QuoteIf I am not mistaken 1 cu. Ft of water is 7.5 gallons or thereabouts. And you may not have the right to the water under your land but what lands on your roof is fair game.


Actually I have heard of places with laws against you taking the rain water - even from your roof.  This is a police state country you know. :-/

And right on the cu-ft gallons.

MountainDon

From what I went and researched tonight on this topic of "stealing" rainwater, here in NM it may very well be illegal to divert such water, not only from your roof, but from what may be running down a slope on your property.  ::) At the same time it may also be illegal under a different set of laws to allow that water to flow out onto public property.  :-? :-? No wonder we have so many lawyers and are the worse off for it.

Keep your pwder dry!

desdawg

#44
Now Glenn, I believe this is possible. In California do you have rain police?   :-? When it isn't raining do they become canola cops?
I know you can't divert a stream or river but come on now, your rain gutters?  :(
Don, it is funny you should mention the slope on your property. I have an area like that I was thinking of damming up, of course using natural materials. I have to haul every drop of water I use up there. Water, if you can get any is roughly 1000 feet deep and I hit bedrock real quick. Drilling would be pretty cost prohibitive. Hauling water entails about 15 miles of rough road and one heck of a climb in a couple of spots. I bring 300 gallons at a time. So harvesting water was on my future agenda. The nice thing about my corner of the planet up there is no one knows I am there. I don't think the water police will find me.  8-)



glenn-k

I haven't found them yet - just heard of them doing it in some areas.

While doing a search for them I found this:

The man who farms water

Colorado has regulations

QuoteRainwater harvesting is the process of
intercepting stormwater run-off and putting it to
beneficial use, such as irrigation. The diversion
or harvest of rainwater is subject to Colorado
law. Any rainwater harvesting strategy more
sophisticated than simply positioning roof gutter
downspouts in areas you wish to water may have
legal barriers.

Texas - looks like you can do it if done right.

QuoteThe State of Texas holds title to surface water in trust for the public welfare. Motl v. Boyd, 116 S.W. 458 (1926);  In re Adjudication of Water Rights of the Upper Guadalupe Segment, 642 S.W.2d 438, 445 (Tx. 1982). Section 11.021 of the Texas Water Code defines the surface water owned by the state to include the water of the ordinary flow, underflow and tides of every flowing river, natural stream and lake and of every bay or arm of the Gulf of Mexico, as well as the storm water, flood water and rainwater of every river, natural stream, canyon, ravine, depression and watershed in the state. In short, any channelized flow of water is deemed to be owned by the state.

Diffused surface water is not state water. These are waters which do not flow in any defined water course but rather cross the surface of the earth in variant and unregulated ways. Diffused surface water is subject to capture and use by the landowner without obtaining permission of the state through a permit. The trick, of course, is capturing the water before it enters any type of creek, ravine, stream or river. Several Texas cases have also recognized that the water in an underground stream or the underflow of a surface stream is state water.

desdawg

That cinches it. I am now a Texazonian.  8-)

Daddymem

Wow, that's nuts.  Groundwater recharge is a concern but that's nuts.  Here in MA, I have to design my storm water systems to approximate pre-construction recharge rates- far more reasonable.

glenn-k

I did find areas where it was recommended, some with credits and one area in India where rainwater harvesting is mandatory.  Lawmakers are never happy.  There has to be some kind of law for us to violate so they can collect fines.

glenn-k

#49
Nearly forgot - I consulted on a well for a school in Kenya yesterday.  Its one of these areas where they have to go over 600 feet for water.  I recommended rainwater harvesting and ferrocrete tanks as once the technology people leave it is possible the well will not be able to be maintained and will slip into non-use.  Well, well, well. :-/

An old friend in the computer industry has formed a group to build several schools there.  I built a building for him in the 80's, in fact he is the one who first taught me to use a spreadsheet.

This is the one in particular --- http://www.buildafricanschools.org/project_sekenani.html