Why are you building your own and how are you paying for it?

[glenn kangiser]

Another thing here from the I forgot to ask department.  I get lots of materials left over from my jobs.  I was working on my shop today and in fact I have built the whole thing from left overs except - I bought the concrete for the slab.

So I have approximately 1200 square feet of shop for about $1200.  It's not beautiful -- its functional.  If I bought a shop that size installed, It would probably cost me $25000 to $30,000.  It was a necessity for my families welfare and my ability to provide for them and make a living.  It was necessary for my pursuit of happiness.  The state doesn't own me or my land.  When they buy it from me at my price, they can dictate to me what I can or can't do. I paid cash for the concrete on my monthly account.

Whether you could do this or not depends on your situation.  Whether I ever have a problem with them or not remains to be seen.

[desdawg]

I like the challenge. It is nice to be able to stand back and look at what you accomplished at the end of the day knowing it is permanent and will be used for many years to come. Cash is king if you can be patient enough to do it that way. Tons of building material makes it's  way to the landfills every year. If you can find a way to divert some of that to your driveway.......... it takes longer to build with that type of material but I find the savings are worth the trouble. I recently got several thousand dollars worth of material from a company tearing down houses. I paid $1500 and I got to pull all the nails, stack it and band it. It took the better part of three weeks to haul, clean, sort and strap it up into bunks but it makes for a good non-taxable reverse income. Not money coming in but not money going out either. I can now add 900 sq. ft to my house + an attached double car garage (including roof trusses) and still have lots of lumber left over. Now if I could just figure out how to get budget priced concrete.....

[glenn kangiser]

I just happened across this article.  Seemed appropriate for here.  Building with limited means.

http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/limited.htm

[desdawg]

That is a great article Glenn. It should provide some inspiration for many and yet contains the caveat that it isn't necessarily for everyone. I am at the drawing board stage for my addition now. I never quite made it to the CAD stage of the game so it will be done the old fashioned way. When I discovered the used material I did what Thomas Elpel mentioned and drew a few boxes, rearranging here and there just to see if I could make the trusses work and get some quantity ideas for the balance of the materials. Now I will refine that rough plan, submit for a permit and probably get started next fall when AZ cools down again. I have the luxury of time being on my side and with the savings on the material I believe it is doable. Of course when it is done the County Assessor will have his way with me and my utility bills will about double with more space to heat and cool. Some of life's tradeoffs really suck. I wish I knew how to dodge those bullets without getting arrested. LOL, I will work on it.

[MikeT]

Over the course of this three year project (between property purchase and now), I have noticed an interesting increase in people's awareness of and appreciation for re-using salvage building materials.  About five years ago, I built a garage and used as much reclaimed and recycled materials as I could.  The problem at that time wasn't getting the materials, they were plentiful.  Craigslist was just getting started (in Portland, at least) and I was able to get lots of good quality wood for free or close to free.  The challenge then was getting the building inspector to okay the use of these materials. 

Fast forward to 2008.  I find that while recycled materials are still relatively plentiful, the competition/ demand and value of them has increased.   I find myself competing with small contractors (one man operations and such ) for materials--they are combing the ads and rebuilding centers for deals too and they have more flexible time than I do, so they seem to be getting the "good stuff" before I get to it.  And materials that people used to give away, is now going for a price.  It is still better than buying new in most cases, plus it has the environmentally friendly angle.

Then there are the inspectors.  I find with more contractors and DIYers using these materials, the inspectors are more accepting of using these materials in the projects.

With this economic downturn, it will be interesting to see the effect on the supply of these materials and the demand as well.

mt

[John Raabe]

A most interesting thread! 

Lots of solid advice and a look into that most important foundation of any building project - motivation!

Glenn: Thanks for the article and the links to the work of Thomas J. Elpel. Wow! Books, workshops, a wilderness adventure school. Looks like a home built industry!
http://www.hollowtop.com/

[Drew]

My mother was a Depression Baby and used to say I left enough food on my plate to feed an army.  We had a cadre of cranky people telling us to close the door because we're "Not paying to heat the outdoors."

"Waste not, want not."

What a big bunch of pains in the bicycle seat.  Then came the energy crisis as told by Richard Nixon (Whom everybody believed, right?) which made me late for school because we had to wait in line for $.60 gas.  Later came the drought (Which one?  Oh the one in California in 1975) which went on and on.  It never bothered me.  The faucet always came on and I didn't like showers much anyway.

So now we've shuffled all those boring old people out to assisted living or wherever and we can live our lives.

Except that my kids can't seem to turn a light off when they leave a room.  And have you seen the amount of crap on the curb on trash collection days?  Do you have to wash your car with that stuff?  It goes out to the bay!  Another new TV?  To watch what, pray tell?  And why do you need the F350 dualie for a commute car, Brad?  You're an unmarried marketing director!  And close that door!  I'm not paying to heat the out doors!

Hey! Come back here!  I'm talking to you!

[n74tg]

After reading the recent posts to this thread, it made me realize several reasons for building my own house that weren't posted before.  These reasons are probably even more important than any of the reasons I previously posted (it's funny how you sometimes forget the most important things).

I too believe there are "hard times a comin", and I don't just mean recession/depression.  What with peak oil out there (no, it's already here), global warming, the credit crisis (much bigger than the subprime mortgage crisis), worldwide Islamo-fascism problems, exploding world population growth, a war in Iraq that isn't going to go away (no matter who is elected), a 9 trillion dollar deficit...need I go on...I think that now is the time to be pathologically frugal (call it cheap if you want to, everybody else I know does), and self-sufficient to the maximum degree possible.  Part of that self-sufficiency thing is being absolutely debt-free and staying that way.  The other part is doing as many things yourself as you can; so building the house myself is a logical extension of that.

I learned my lesson back in 1983, when my adjustable mortgage rate was 13% and the payment had just jumped up $400 per month, the same year I got both divorced and lost my job.  I call it the triple whammy.  Things weren't looking good for the boy.  I did get work, but at 1/3 of the previous salary.  Two years later, after getting over that big hurdle I made a commitment to get and stay debt free and to start seriously putting money aside.  So, I guess I've thought this way for going on 20 years now.  I attribute being able to retire at age 48 to this attitude (and to some really good luck).   

Please don't take any of this as bragging.  It's probably a good thing that the triple whammy happened to me when it did.  It made me wake up and start taking care of my business like I should have been doing all along.  It kept me from doing stupid things like "cash-out refinances", over using credit cards and continuing to buy bigger and bigger houses along the way. 

Okay, the sermon is over.   

P.S.  It's too bad all the good people on this forum can't all live in the same area...just think of it... there wouldn't be anything we couldn't build...or do...or fix.

[glenn kangiser]

A most interesting thread! 

Lots of solid advice and a look into that most important foundation of any building project - motivation!

Glenn: Thanks for the article and the links to the work of Thomas J. Elpel. Wow! Books, workshops, a wilderness adventure school. Looks like a home built industry!
http://www.hollowtop.com/

I found it looking for floor spans.  It is very interesting although I just skimmed it. 

More cool stuff on another of his sites.

http://www.hollowtop.com/tunnel.html

[Drew]

Naw, n74tg, that's not bragging.  That's inspiring and encouraging, and we all profit by hearing stories like that.

In this company I am called a "Contractor".  My badge says "Contingent Staff" in red letters.  I'm a project manager and companies engage me to come work for them under contract for 3, 4 or 6 months at a time.  I've been in this 4 month gig for 17 months now.

Some people look at the contractors and wonder why they don't try to become employees.  You can get paid time off, an annual bonus, matching 401(k), why not become an employee?  And job security!  How much are you really making as a contractor to make up for all of that?

In the 17 months I've been here I've seen two major layoffs.  There was also one when I was here four years ago.

I had this boss here and he and I got along pretty well.  He took work home at night.  He's a director and wonders what he has to do to become a vice president.  He's a smart, active, motivated guy, and he's taking the hose to the wrong burning building.

"I look at my friends and I see that they have a nice car and a great big TV," he says, "And I admit it burns me that I don't have them and I want them."

"Are you looking at one friend with the car and another friend with the TV?  Do either have both or did they make a choice?"

"Yeah, I hadn't thought of that."

"Do either of them ride centuries with you?"

"No, they don't."

"If you buy the biggest TV in the neighborhood, how long will it be until someone buys a bigger one for less money than you spent?"

"Yeah, I see where you're going."

I told him about our plan to sell the city house and build our farm.  I told him about the three phases of life around learning a trade, learning yourself, and securing your final comfort.  I told him about the hedonic treadmill.  I don't think he'll stop going to Best Buy, but I don't think the believes that it is the only answer anymore.

[Sassy]

Except that my kids can't seem to turn a light off when they leave a room.  And have you seen the amount of crap on the curb on trash collection days?  Do you have to wash your car with that stuff?  It goes out to the bay!  Another new TV?  To watch what, pray tell?  And why do you need the F350 dualie for a commute car, Brad?  You're an unmarried marketing director!  And close that door!  I'm not paying to heat the out doors!

Hey! Come back here!  I'm talking to you!     Drew, it's funny how we are determined to not say the same things our parents told us & then....   

P.S.  It's too bad all the good people on this forum can't all live in the same area...just think of it... there wouldn't be anything we couldn't build...or do...or fix.  That would be quite a community, wouldn't it n74g!

We started building our own place because we didn't have the money & didn't want to get a big mortgage.  Glenn has enough experience with building & wanted to try some alternative ways of construction...  he's very resourceful in finding free, near free, good deals or trades & can use most anything & make something out of it    A lot of what we've done is experimental - we've found some things that don't work as well as others...  he does the research - I just kinda go along for the ride, help where I can, make suggestions, be the gofer, do the support work so he doesn't have to be bothered with it...  I don't always know what he has in mind  so can't just go ahead & do my own thing - our place is totally unconventional...     The feeling of building your own place is so much better than buying a ready made place that - if it is what you really want, it too over-priced or if it is somewhat reasonable, you  are already thinking of all the things you need to fix, change etc before it is truly your home...  building it yourself is quite an accomplishment! 

We also wanted to be pretty independent - not reliant on the gov't support systems (power, water, etc)  So, when everyone else is out of power, we don't even have a clue    Our garden is another thing that gives us fresh veggies - it does take a lot of water in our hot, dry climate & we need to continue to work on better ways of "farming" - hopefully, one of these days, we'll be able to get some animals again - goats, sheep, chickens etc for milk, eggs, meat...  haven't gotten to the vegetarian stage yet, Drew - but I will go days without eating any meat... 

Yeah, our community would be quite unique if everyone on CP were living close by 

[Jared Drake]

Well, at least I know now I'm not some doomsday prophet, because I was really getting the impression that most people here built their own houses just because they had well paying jobs and could afford two houses. One in town where they worked, and another out in the desert, or in Alaska. (Man what a sweet view that guy has) Me, I'm broke. That's my motivation. Thank God and Uncle Sam for income tax season, because that's helping get us out of debt. It really makes me feel good to know that the gov't is giving us a tax rebate in the middle of this year to try and get us to spend, but I'm taking mine and paying off some debt. Not quite what Uncle Sam had in mind, but it works for me. I'm also considering a second job to get me where I'm going a little quicker.
Jared

[Drew]

Good plan for the tax rebate, Jared.  It might not be what the manufacturer had in mind, but as many eminent economists have stated that individuals will act in their own best interest.  There's a surprise, huh?

This won't be our second house, but our only house.  Our plan involves going into town as necessary (Some people in our industry can telecommute) and stay in ether a hotel or a studio apartment, depending on how may days we need to be there.  Either one would be tax deductible to me as a business expense.  It doesn't make it free housing, just less expensive.   However, I can still get by on a whole lot less with my mindset and the fact that I have a beautiful farm to go back to.  It sure beats my mortgage.

[brian_nj]

Well the most basic reason we are building ourselves is to get things done to the quality level that we desire. I have been in new home construction for too long not to know about all the shortcuts that are taken in a lot of buildings. We want things to be solid and correctly built. By providing the labor ourselves it alows us to use higher quality components and add more features that we want.

We plan to pay for the building in cash as we go as I have had a mortgage long enough and am tired of owing people. That coupled with the current state of the economy I would feel a lot better if we owned it ought right.

[miman]

i bought my land 9 years ago. 21.000 on a canal leading to 350 acer lake. it was more than i wanted to spend at the time, but it appreciated rapidly. i bought on l.c and used some of the money i should have put down to install a septic field. on the advice on my real estate agent, she suggested the deal should be contingent upon receiving a septic permit, not just a perk test. luckily  the land perked and a contractor put the tank/field in for 1500. i have had nine years to save building material for my project. the local lowes in my are cull out a lot of plywood, i was able to buy all my 3/4 material for $5 dollars a sheet. 7/16 $3. i bought enough fibercon decking to build and 12x16 deck for $45. if you look, you can find the deals. if your in hurry and want it tomorrow your going to pay, it's call a mortgage. the trick is to buy only what you will need, as your plans will change a million times. i have found so many good deals, that my wife calls our basement lowes. it has also been nine years of parking outside and not in the garage. i have found the most important tool i have is a ford ranger pick-up truck. the michigan winter has stopped me, but come april i will start the mechanical. so far i have about 14,000 into the cabin, the cabin will have ikea kitchen cabinets, kohler memoir lav fixtures, aqua glass shower, vermont casting wood stove, nickel fixtures, slate flooring, suntouch electric heated flooring (bathroom only) and  a great room filled with bruce hardwood flooring (200 sq feet). the exterior will be cover in t1-11 with a lot of cedar shakes. my peaks and pump-out will be covered with shakes. the only things i have paid  retail on have been the roof trusses, shingles and 1/2 roof osb roof deckings. my point, just because your building on a budget, your home/cottage/cabin doesn't have to look like it. the deals are out there, go find them. you can find a link to my cabin under owner builder forum. 20x36 michigan cabin.

[n74tg]

Wow --- guys if you haven't checked out that hollowtop.com website, go do it quick.   Here is a reference from hollowtop to exactly what many in this thread have been talking about.  Check it out.

http://www.greenuniversity.net/Green_Economics/jobtrap.htm

[StinkerBell]

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3958.msg46807;boardseen#new

This thread is about Thomas Elpel.

[Jared Drake]

Wow, I guess this thread really struck a cord. I didn't expect it to, but I should've expected it. It's fun to read. Wow, my thread's on the front freakin' page! How cool is that?
Jared

[Erin]

I guess we're in the same boat as Jared.  We would never be able to afford to build if we didn't do it ourselves. 
More importantly, both  my husband and myself tend to be DIYers anyway.  My husband is known as McGuyver because he can make anything work with the proper application of duct tape and baling wire.    A friend of mine gave me her broken treadmill saying, "if anyone can fix it, Travis can."  And he did.  And it works better than it did before because he modified it while he was at it.  They, meanwhile, spent $600 for a new one...
And I think also is the fact that both of us grew up watching our parents take care of things themselves.  My dad, for example, is a lawyer.  But he's also an adequate shade-tree mechanic and a quality carpenter.  When I was 5 I got to help him tear down an old barn.  When I was 6-8 I got to help him rebuild it as our cabin.  Needed a wider driveway?  We dug it out and poored it outselves. 

I guess the biggest lesson I learned was that you don't pay people to do something that you can do yourself. 

So far as financing.  We're going to pay as much as possible with cash, but there is going to be some that is financed via credit cards and re-fied, if needed, as a mortgage.

[Sassy]

Erin, your dad sounds like mine - when I was growing up, he took care of the mechanical things - he built additions to our houses, started digging by hand one evening in the backyard - wouldn't tell us what he was doing, then some of the neighbors got involved - come to find out, he was digging a pool that the whole neighborhood helped build & we all enjoyed swimming in!  He built shelves, headboards for beds, remodeled, gardened, landscaped, poured cement for sidewalks, driveways, farmed - my brothers are like that, especially my younger one & so is Glenn - whatever needs to be done, they can do it - pretty nice    now sometimes, getting them to do it is another thing 

[Redoverfarm]

Well the original topic takes on new meaning when things change.  Originally I was building the cabin to sell and become debt free. Therefore I was going somewhat out on a limb with the finances figuring that I could keep up with the intrest until it was sold. Now I have thought more on keeping the cabin. Yeah I've grown a little attached to it. Can I still keep it. The answer is "Yes" but will I be debt free the answer is no.  So I guess there is a trade off somewhere in this scenerio.   Eventually I will get there debt free I mean but not as soon as I would have liked to.

[Jared Drake]

My dad wasn't a DIY'er. He got his Ph.D. and made enough to pay people to do the things he didn't know how to do. In his defense, he was always busy and some school board meetings (he was superintendant) would last until well after midnight. His hobby was cattle farming, which he did on his 50 acres until he retired and decided he was too old to keep up with cattle. I'd considered a cabin there, since the land was free and nobody is living there, but my brother already has a trailer there that's vacant, so if we went out there we would just buy the trailer and live there. My point is: When it comes to building, I'm going to have to learn as I go. Fun.
Jared

[Sassy]

I'm sure that's what my dad did...  he was a B52 instructor pilot for a good part of his career - he retired when he was 49 & bought 100 acres with old farm homes on them (2 separate plots next to each other) we had to plant 40 acres of almonds, the rest was already planted...  my dad found out later that us kids had planted them facing the wrong way - I guess there is some type of knot - don't remember if it is the grafted area but it's supposed to be pointing a certain way - hey, the trees did great anyway... he built a large family room, then remodeled the kitchen, then 2500 sq ft upstairs addition that my brothers helped with; my older brother built a 2500 sq ft home with 5 car garage (now part of that is converted into an office, bathroom & work out room; my other brother added on probably 2000 sq ft to his 100 y/o home - downstairs & upstairs - then just recently remodeled the whole thing - looks beautiful!  A couple summers ago he built a pool & last summer a pool house/barbecue area...  he also built a big shop...  they've all done it with very little money, bought at auctions, sales, etc - lots of physical labor on their parts...  on the other hand, my sister & her husband just remodeled their home - have spent probably $100,000 - they would rather pay someone to do the work...  so everyone has their way of doing things...  when we remodeled our house in the valley, we took out walls, totally gutted the kitchen - new electrical wiring, insulation, walls, some of the plumbing replaced, new fixtures, built-ins, cabinets, tile on floor & counters; built a couple walk in closets for bedrooms, pantry in kitchen, redid the living room...  we spent about $20,000 - if we'd had someone else do it, it probably would have been $100,000 like my sister's.   Now we've built the cabin - in stages - there's still a lot to do but as is, perfectly liveable (except I need more CLOSETS!  )  We bought another 40 acres after this one with a home already there - Glenn & my brother remodeled it - kitchen, living room, bathrooms...  new windows, sliding glass door, arched doorway into the kitchen that used to be totally closed up with no VIEWS but now with the archway & new, bigger windows placed a bit lower - 360 views - the house is at the top of a mountain with a wrap-around porch....  we're renting that one out.  We have a mobile home on our property in the valley that Glenn's son lived in - he added a couple additions to it.  Oh, years ago, Glenn added a 2 story addition to the house there including a bathroom & 2 bedrooms... so lots of experience in the family on our own stuff - Glenn's done lots of remodels on other homes...  you gotta do it yourself if you want it unless you have tons of money.  Besides, when you do it yourself, you have the satisfaction of seeing the works of your hands - if you can't do it all, just farm out what you don't know - you still have the satisfaction of having planned, designed your personal touches & done what you can...   

[n74tg]

Sassy:
I flew B-52's also; Ellsworth, 1975-1981.  When did your dad retire and from where.  Was he ever at Ellsworth?

Tony

[Sassy]

he retired in 1971 Castle AFB  he was in Vietnam '68-69 for 18 mo's