Sustainability

[ailsaek]

Since this forum is about housing, let's ask ourselves a proper question to see where it will lead... Here's a start at that question:

• What characteristics would a house have in order to be sustaining of the earth?

My first thought is that the house should be built of materials which are readilay available and renewable locally.  In New England, that's be cob, pine, or straw bales, I think.  I haven't researched concrete enough to know for sure, but I gather there are a fair number of big problems with its manufacture.  Maximizing the use of passive solar for heating and minimizing the use of fossil fuels would also help.

[glenn-k]

Manufacture of concrete is a major concern to sustainability due to high embodied energy.

What gets me in housing is that an on grade slab for a house uses 3 1/2" to 4" of concrete - the same amount that is capable of supporting a forklift or tractor etc. weighing over 20,000 lbs, just for walking on.  I'm not sure what options code allows, and obviously any alternates would still have to maintain the structural integrity of the house.

This is not an issue with post and pier.  While our group doesn't do much on grade slab, tons of new construction does.

[Amanda_931]

Concrete--seems like I read a year or so ago that we are using a couple of tons (a year?) f0r every human on the planet.

On the other hand, like oil, there are things that it does better than anything else.

Jonsey may be doing as much as any of us (a lot more than me!) to get to sustainability.  I'm fixing to take the car out and get a restaurant meal.  My excuses may be pretty good, but they're still excuses.

[Amanda_931]

a column about breakfast--and oil.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=71299

On the table in my small Berkeley apartment this particular morning is a healthy looking little meal -- a bowl of imported McCann's Irish oatmeal topped with Cascadian Farms organic frozen raspberries, and a cup of Peet's Fair Trade Blend coffee. Like most of us, I prepare my breakfast at home and the ingredients for this one probably cost me about $1.25. (If I went to a café in downtown Berkeley, I'd likely have to add another $6.00, plus tip for the same.)

My breakfast fuels me up with about 400 calories, and it satisfies me. So, for just over a buck and half an hour spent reading the morning paper in my own kitchen, I'm energized for the next few hours. But before I put spoon to cereal, what if I consider this bowl of oatmeal porridge (to which I've just added a little butter, milk, and a shake of salt) from a different perspective. Say, a Saudi Arabian one.

Then, what you'd be likely to see -- what's really there, just hidden from our view (not to say our taste buds) -- is about four ounces of crude oil. Throw in those luscious red raspberries and that cup of java (another three ounces of crude), and don't forget those modest additions of butter, milk, and salt (another ounce), and you've got a tiny bit of the Middle East right here in my kitchen.

Now, let's drill a little deeper into this breakfast. Just where does this tiny gusher of oil actually come from? (We'll let this oil represent all fossil fuels in my breakfast, including natural gas and coal.)

[ailsaek]

Neat article.  I knew some of that, hadn't considered others (the distance manure is trucked just hadn't occurred to me), and am feeling even better about my decision to grow as much of my own as possible when we move to our next place.

[glenn-k]

Good move, Ailsa.  We grow a lot also - enough to have food year round.  Currently cauliflower, chard, fennel, turnips - winter squash - other stuff.

[Texan_lost_in_cali]

I too grow some of my own food, though I would like to grow more. If you think breakfast if intensive think about the building materials that go into just building a small home. Probably the best ideas are a certain moderator's dig a hole use as much salvage material as possible. I have no idea how many gallons of oil one piece of waferboard or plywood cost but I am sure it would be many many.

[glenn-k]

I was remembering the other day that someone was told they couldn't use salvage materials because it didn't increase the tax base.  I don't remember where I heard it.  We need to put a stop to that to increase sustainability.  

Sometimes I just don't understand the mentality or lack thereof of our public servants --how can they be so against the people they serve?  

Time to crawl up out of my hole now.

[sethy]

Aloha all,
Maui Wowee here. Actualluy, it's none other than the fruit of John's loins. I thought he would know it was me in an instant when I posted that response to his Panama stuff. Well he didn't. But that didn't stop him from getting all defensive as usual. HA! HA! Just jerkin' yer chain dad.
I swear, for a guy who's always talking about how people shouldn't take themselves so seriously, he sure takes himself seriously.
So, in the discussion about "sustainable" housing, I like what everyone's saying and it sounds like a lot of us are really looking into the indigenous practices of the area for some ideas about locally appropriate methods.
Here in Hawaii, low rock walls provided a thermal mass and kept the strong winds out while timber posts held up the broad overhanging thatched roof. If you can keep the rain off of you, then temperatures aren't that big of a deal. More appropriately designed modern dwellings will have whole walls will just screen between the posts. The old Hawaiians were smart (or perhaps lucky) enough not to bring mosquitos to the islands on their voyages here, so living in the open air all the time was a pleasure. 8-)

[glenn-k]

Welcome officially to the forum, Seth.  Take it easy on the old fellow now - you know how hard it is to get some of them to change their ways.  (We have to let him be the serious one here because I goof off so much).

We are looking forward to hearing more of your experiences regarding sustainability and indigenous methods of native Hawaiians.  I noticed you are working with bamboo also- is building with bamboo a traditional method also?  

Did you catch our indigenous housing thread here?  It's one of my favorites.  Unfortunately a lot of the building materials used by the indigenous people are not covered in the codes.  No one will spend the money to get a free material accepted.  A work around is to build a post and beam frame - engineering required or possibly a design your dad mentioned using corner brace panels with a long header in between then do as you wish.  Codes are written for the sale of high embodied energy (referred to as emergy sometimes) corporate manufactured materials without much regard for health risks.  I had 2 dogs die of cancer that I'm pretty sure was caused by sleeping on fiberglass insulation.

Indigenous building materials in this part of the Americas could include rock, mud, earth,  adobe, wood, trees and branches.  Some of it can be used in modern building with the addition of concrete or wood bond beams -and thousands of dollars worth of engineering. :-/

Link to Indigenous Housing-- http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1135060015/0

[sethy]

Yeah'
we're growing 8 different species of clumping timber bamboos in our 18 acre organic bamboo plantation. Indigenous bamboo building practices are somewhat limited as far as permanent structures. In South America some beautiful suspension bridges built from Guadua, a type we are growing more extensively than any other, have been made and re-made for centuries. Most cultures that have large native bamboos used them for temporary structures, but I haven't heard of any permanent dwellings made from bamboo, traditionally.
The use of bamboo as a modern building material is being developed right now by people like Simon Velez and Marcelo Viegas of Colombia, and Yorg Stamm from Germany who lives in Colombia. Simon and Marcelo came out here last year to see our project and give some talks on Maui. I went to a ten day bamboo building workshop with Yorg a few months ago.

Simon's work is probably the most impressive ... public pavilions with huge roofs with 30 foot overhangs and stuff like that. Very amazing beautiful structures.  The things that are allowing this type of construction with bamboo are the newly developed joinery techniques using steel bolts passing through concrete-filled chambers of the bamboo, and also modern treatement methods. Boric acid is the principal treatment used around here and in Europe and the States. It works great if kept dry. Down south they use diesel fuel mixed with pesticides. Pleasant.
The truth is that bamboo is a grass and subject to decomposition moreso than many types of wood, so it often needs some kind of treatment if it's to be used structurally. There are many traditional treatement methods including saltwater and fire curing. I've heard mixed opinions on the effectiveness of these methods.

On the other hand, bamboo is a truly sustainable, renewable source of timber. A bamboo clump is a permanent forest plant; many of the species we grow are 60 ft tall with 5 inch diameter culms (poles), while the largest ones are 100 ft tall or more with 10 inch diameter culms. When you harvest from the clump, you leave 70-90% of it there, thus maintaining continuous forest cover. Many of our timber varieties also have choice edible shoots.
Our neighbor is in the final stages of building his legally permitted bamboo home. I believe it is the first one in the County of Maui. He's using a boric acid treated running bamboo from Thailand with lots of steel bolts holding things together, as well as a lot of concrete, local wood, ceramic tile, and copper. It's an amazing piece of work that really blends in with the landscape.

[glenn-k]

Cool stuff, Seth.  Thanks so much for the information.  Do you know of any timber varieties that will grow in California.  I have a year round spring that I considered growing some near a year or two ago.  Would the clumping varieties work in an area like that - so as not to take over the place?

Some people are using bamboo around here to reinforce their strawbale construction.  Many of the strawbale builders around here don't really know what they are doing and end up with a plastic covered stack of straw covered in concrete - stucco to satisfy some of the engineers or codes.  Our county allows strawbale as long as it is in a post and beam frame - and even earth plaster which is what is used by the people who know what they are doing.  The earth plaster will draw the moisture out of the straw as long as it doesn't get into the top of the bales.  Stucco or concrete on the other hand will trap the moisture in as well as plastic or house wrap, causing the bales to rot out.

Seems you are learning similar stuff to what your dad did when he worked with Ken Kern here in CA in the 60's.  Just a chip off the old block, eh?  Just more proof that history does repeat itself.   Sorry 'bout that Seth-- I couldn't resist picking on you a little bit.

My apologies to John.  I didn't mean to imply that you were an old fossil. :-/

[Daddymem]

Glenn:
Some bamboo links I have bookmarked.
http://www.bamboogarden.com/default.htm#Bamboo%20Pictures
Yeah...bamboo in New England
http://www.newengbamboo.com/

We have been toying with the idea of bamboo for screening purposes and with all the interior uses nowadays you can tie your yard right into your living room.
I became interested when I ran into it while surveying a compound on the Cape.

[glenn-k]

Good info, Daddymem- thanks - even one in Oregon.

[ailsaek]

Would you guys count tires and beer cans as sustainable materials?  I mean, they definitely wouldn't be if one were making them only to build houses with, but pulling them out of the waste stream and using them as building materials, does that count as sustainable building?

[jwv]

D%*n John,

I hope you're proud, you and the Mom (sorry, don't know her name) have managed to raise a son who can actually think OUTSIDE the box.  What an accomplishment in this day and age and I hope someday to realize the same.

judy (mom of 2 sons)

http://strawbaleredux.blogspot.com/

[glenn-k]

I guess one thing building with tires does is help to replace materials that may not be as sustainable.  Dumps don't like tires because they don't compact well - they work right up out of the pile as they try to pack them in.  I haven't used any of them yet -considered it a little -maybe later. I know Amanda is up on this stuff more than I am.  A friend built a retaining wall out of them and the earthships plaster over them and use them as the main part of the structure.  I guess I should consider them a bit now that you mentioned it, Ailsa.  My pneumatic rammer would pack them solid relatively easily.

I haven't figured out a use for the beer cans though - except to hold  the beer in while I'm ramming dirt in the tires. :-/

Another point, Seth -- Ken Kern mentioned using bamboo as reinforcing in concrete and the army or military also experimented with it and developed some methods of using it as concrete reinforcement in areas where they needed to build things and there was no steel available.  I read about it a year or two ago- I don't remember much about the success or permanence.

[Daddymem]

Tires are cut up for use as septic leaching area aggregate.
Beer cans around here are turned in for their $0.05 deposit.

[glenn-k]

That's a new one for me.  Our inspector would not know what to do if he saw that --- He studied the rocks we brought in and said some of them were too small - went about 1" to 3" avg 2" - he said the bacteria colonies needed more surface area so he wanted bigger rock - actually the small rocks have more surface area if I figure right.  He'd have a cow if he had to try to figure out a load of rubber.

On the other hand - I guess all the rules and scientific studies go away if you go to plastic infiltration modules because they don't have anything --rocks or rubber and they are still approved- in fact preferred.

It still seems the cans are best for holding the beer, though.  I hate spending $4.00 worth of gas to recycle $2.00 worth of cans.  The rules once again go away if you are going to buy the beer though.

[Daddymem]

Naw, you save up bags and bags of empty cans, then you go in one big trip and walk away with full ones

[bartholomew]

Speaking of which, I don't get that "eating oil for breakfast" piece. Suppose that by buying locally grown food, you can save 5 calories of oil input for each calorie of food. If you're eating 2500 calories a day, that means you're saving 4,500,000 calories of oil a year. In other words, a whopping 1/6 of a gallon per year. For a larger family, you might save 1 gallon a year. Maybe the organic oatmeal eating, fair trade coffee drinking crowd can assuage their consciences as they drive their SUVs to the organic farm. The rest of us would be better off by walking to the corner store; or, if you have to drive, then limiting trips by stocking up as much as is practical.

[ailsaek]

Maybe the organic oatmeal eating, fair trade coffee drinking crowd can assuage their consciences as they drive their SUVs to the organic farm. The rest of us would be better off by walking to the corner store; or, if you have to drive, then limiting trips by stocking up as much as is practical.

Why thank you.  Yes, I do prefer buying veggies at the local organic farm, which is a bit too far away to walk, rather than the gas station/quick mart which is the only source of groceries I can walk to.

I didn't say anyone was defective for not drinking fair trade coffee, so I'd really appreciate not being casually dismissed as irrelevant.

[bartholomew]

Ailsa, no offense was meant as I certainly feel that what you eat, where you buy it, and what you drive is up to you. But trying to save fuel by driving farther in order to buy organic is irrelevant... more gas will be burned in one trip than will be saved in a year's worth of food. Hopefully your decision to buy organic veggies is based on other factors. And of course, once you are growing your own, you elimate the travel aspect altogether.

[glenn-k]

I have friends who grow vegetables -take them to the local farmers market to sell and you really get something worth buying from them-- the garbage you buy at the store -hybrid giant well colored tasteless gobs of goo leave me wanting something that really tastes like our home grown stuff.

I used to truck, hauling produce in a 45' reefer.  Sometimes the stuff was such low quality the dispatcher would tell me the route to drive -roads to take --to avoid the state quality control inspection.  Another reason to grow your own stuff.

[John_M]

Totally off topic but 'geez Glenn, is there any job you have not held in your life....

...I would love to see an accurate list of the things you have done for money......jobs that is!!