The subject of backwoods encounters with bears has come up a few times here and there. Some of us have guns, some of us don't, some may have bear spray (concentrated pepper spray), some may have both, some trust in God. ??? Many have opined that bear spray may be, or is, the better choice. In my reading up I have come to the conclusion that the 45 revolver I wear most of the time up in the mountains is best for visual deterrance of the 2 legged type of predator.
Here's the latest, an article from today's Salt lake Tribune.
Wildlife encounters: If you meet a bear, don't shoot. Spray
If you're roaming bear country, your best protection against an unpleasant encounter is a can of bear spray, not a gun, according to Brigham Young University wildlife biologist Tom Smith.
Smith's team, which included Stephen Herrero, a world authority on bear attacks, has studied 600 bear encounters in Alaska over two decades. In 72 incidents in which bear spray was used properly, the bear stopped charging more than 90 percent of the time, according to a study Smith published in the April edition of the Journal of Wildlife Management. People using guns, by contrast, stood a one-in-three chance of failing to deter the bear, according to an earlier study.
"The probability is the bear spray will outperform a firearm and it's easy to see why. The spray is easy to deploy. The rifle is just difficult to use," Smith said. Stopping a charging bear with bullets required, on average, four hits.
Most of the 72 bear spray deployments Smith studied involved grizzly bears; the rest were black and polar bears. His team studied newspaper accounts, anecdotes and reports from wildlife agencies to determine the bears' activity before being sprayed, the distance involved, time of day, wind effects, mechanical problems and dosage of spray. Of the 150 people involved, just three injuries were reported and none required hospitalization.
"Tom is the best person to do this study because he has so much hands-on experience with bears," said Chuck Bartlebaugh, a vocal bear-spray advocate who leads the Center for Wildlife Information in Missoula, Mont. "We need a similar study done for the Intermountain region with inland grizzly bears who tend to be more aggressive because they don't have the salmon runs."
Last year was the worst on record for human-bear conflicts in Utah, with 203 black bear encounters, including a fatal mauling in American Fork Canyon. That total was substantially higher than in the previous four years combined, probably the result of poor natural food sources and a high number of fledgling juveniles leaving their home turf, according to Kevin Bunnell, large-mammal coordinator for the Division of Wildlife Resources.
Utah's wet winter bodes well for the coming season, "but it can turn south in a hurry," Bunnell said. "A single late freeze can have a big impact. So can a hot, dry July or August."
Smith's findings should debunk common reasons given for not carrying bear spray, which Smith calls ''an olfactory assault weapon.'' Although wind can interfere with spray accuracy, wind rarely reduced the spray's effectiveness, probably because most discharges occur in wooded areas and the spray exits the nozzle at 70 mph. His team found no instances in which the spray malfunctioned and only two instances in which the sprayers incapacitated themselves.
"Bear spray diffuses potentially dangerous situations in the short term by providing the user time to move out of harm's way and allowing the bear time to reassess the situation and move on," Smith wrote. "When food or garbage is involved with bear conflict, bear spray is effective initially, but one can expect bears to continue returning until these attractants are removed or otherwise secured."
Smith's study, funded by his former employer, the U.S. Geological Society and the Alaska Science Center, shows that bear spray can help conserve grizzlies, protected as a threatened species.
Every fall in the lands around Glacier and Yellowstone national parks, elk hunters kill grizzly bears in self-defense. According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, between 1980 and 2002, 49 grizzlies were fatally shot by people protecting themselves around Yellowstone (accounting for nearly one in six of all known bear deaths). Another 23 were shot around Glacier.
"In most cases there are no attempts to carry bear spray, much less use it. Every time a hunter decides to shoot instead of use bear spray they are making a decision they are going to set back grizzly bear recovery," said Brian Peck, of the Great Bear Foundation. "Had those people used bear spray, not only would [the bears] be alive, they would know that this red hot spray stuff will be really nasty and to avoid it and they would pass this information on. Bears are smart."
After much thought it seems to me that during an encounter with a bear, the thought process of a revolver wielder could go something like this; surprise at first contact and a little concern as the bear moves towards him. A self assured 'I'll show him who's boss' as he pulls the revolver from he holster, a satisfied smile as the first couple shots are loosed, disbelief, shock and fear as the bear doesn't miss a beat and charges harder now that he's really angry... As the bear tears off an arm or a leg, or bites his face/head, "maybe I should have bought that bear spray?"
Bear Spray is probably even better than the 45/70 Marlin. :-\
FWIW, some people believe bells attract bears because of their curiosity. Talking and other human noises may be better. :-\
There are several brands; do a Google. I like the Counter Assault (http://www.counterassault.com/) brand over the others. It meets or exceeds all the EPA's recommendations for bear spray. They have a comparison chart. Of course they want you select their product, but their numbers seem to be correct.
Other related links, in no special order...
http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/wildlife/igbc/Spray.htm
http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/b_spray.html
http://www.igbconline.org/
http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm
http://www.centerforwildlifeinformation.org/BeBearAware/BearSpray/bearspray.html
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:EqiMjWFVK80J:www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%2520spray.pdf+bear+spray&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us
...due to forum message length restriction, the balance of the article, and further comments are in the next post.
A man hires an outfitter to take him bear hunting. The man asks what wepons he should bring. The outfitter tells him to bring a 300 winchester magnum, a 44 magnum revolver and a bowie knife. The man ponders a moment then asks, I can see the rifle and the revolver but what's the knife for? Well, the outfitter says, first you fire as many shots as you can with the rifle. Then as he charges you empty the revolver into him. Then you pull the knife out and cut your own throat before he eats you.
And on another hunt;
Outfitter: File the sights off your bear rifle.
Hunter: Why?
Outfitter: So it won't hurt so bad when the bear shoves it up your a$$.
Good article Don, and fairly factual.
I've had a lot of experience with bears. I grew up in bear country and the farm is thriving with them...including cubs.
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/DSC_0113.jpg)
IMHO your (and my) 45/70 is the best bear medicine on earth....but only if you know the gun inside and out. There is very little difference between shooting an attacking bear and an attacking human. It has to be automatic. That means burning up a lot of ammo. It's fun for me but many people don;t like to shoot and don't want to spend the money involved. I handload and it is still an expensive habit.
I also carry bear spray...In the woods and out. Shooting beats is depressing and shooting people is heavy on the paperwork :)
Black bears are more serious than Grizzles. Grizzly bears will bluff most of the time, 80 percent of black bear charges are real.
Pepper will turn a bear that is not on a rampage but if he wants you, a bullet is the only sure answer.
I vote for carry both and stay on your toes.
We need an over/under; 45/70 and bear spray. :)
Quote from: MountainDon on March 26, 2008, 08:09:14 PM
We need an over/under; 45/70 and bear spray. :)
Boy, wouldn't that be nice! I have an over/under .308-12ga.....but it ain't a 45/70. Most people don't understand how strong those little guide guns are. I've loaded some that were just shy of .458 Mag ballistics. Kicks like a Christmas Mule, but sure does what it's supposed to do. ;D
For those with deep pockets these look like really fine 45/70 ammo. (John C let me know about them)
Dang, I hijacked my own thread. d*
QuoteI hijacked my own thread.
That's funny rofl
So where are you headed with this?? Spray them with 45-70's??? We're probably headed towards some black bears issues here as well. The bear population has increased and some of the neighbors think they are cute, especially the momma bears with those cudly cubs. Darwin award candidates in the making.
QuoteKicks like a Christmas Mule
What's the saying?"Kills at one end, maims at the other">
Hang a pepper canister in place of the light?
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddsnends2/Lightmount.jpg)
Laser on that light, Don? hmm I would have an uneasy feeling if a red dot hit me in the forehead.
Found this on the Alaska Gold Forum.
QuoteQuote: akbushcop at 11:25:37 Thu Mar 27 2008
I've used the pepper spray before. It's nice unless the wind is blowing in the wrong direction or it's raining. Also it shouldn't be carried in your front vest pocket with the safety off. I would have thought after getting sprayed in the face 3 times I would have learned my lesson. I can testify the stuff works on humans very well....
lol thats funny I dont care who you are...
I had some pepper spray on the shelf for a few years and it somehow leaked and it took me a few weeks to figure out what the heck was making my eyes irritated until I picked up the spray one time and it felt empty so I shook it and it leaked a little more on me..
I kept it on the shelf due to in colorado alot of Fed Parks and I coudlnt hike in them legally with a weapon but I will never buy it agian unless forced into that situation.
More from AGF
QuoteYa right. Some researchers are idiots too.
"Researchers found 11 incidents where bear spray applied to objects like tents, with the intent to repel bears, backfired and attracted them."
How stupid! Pepper spray is a condiment to bears just as salt and pepper is to a human.
In the Alaska bush I always carry a pistol grip Mossberg 12 gauge that I call my "bear tamer". It is realitively light weight yet when loaded with slugs will slow down most any bear. I do give them a chance with a "cracker" round designed to scare them away. Then, if it ain't running away the bear may likely die. I would hate to kill a bear, or any animal, but if in doubt the animal dies before my safety is in question.
I'm not a hunter. I don't beleve in killing animals (unless it barks all night). But when an animal threatens you why would you not stop it from hurting you with something more than a condiment.
I really want to say something here about all the environmentalest, global warming idots form California... but I wont.
---
Walt
and
QuoteWalt-
Not all people from California are sandal wearing, quiche eaten, white wine swilling, tree hugging left wing commie pinko enviro-nuts.
there are lots of them but then there are those of us that are politically just to right of Attila The Hun and think that we should have many fewer Nat Parks and a lot less regulation.
Ken
http://bb.bbboy.net/alaskagoldforum-viewthread?forum=2&thread=688
and me of course...
QuoteYou got it, Ken. My neighbor and I have both killed bears breaking into our places. 3rd night I was sleeping outside with a 30.06 waiting for it. That was the last night it bothered us.
Two Fish and game offices told me if they were a threat to our safety, don't wait for the permit -- just shoot them. Local warden was a sandal wearing, quiche eaten, white wine swilling, tree hugging left wing commie pinko enviro-nut.
He turned out to be OK after he got here with my permit. I called the USDA trapper and told him to call the warden and bring up my permit -- he was supposed to get it there the night before.
Earlier he told my wife they didn't want wounded bears running around for them to chase down, so I only used one bullet from about 20 feet and shot it straight up it's nose. I wasn't going to give him the satisfaction of thinking I couldn't shoot straight and shoot more than once.
---
Mariposa - South end of the California Mother Lode
Glenn
QuotePepper spray not enough for bear attacks
Forum: Appalachian Trail
Re: Question Smokey the Bears (John & Cathy)
Date: 2000, Nov 07
From: Chris Deile
The bear attack in the Smokies (spring '00) which the woman was mauled and killed was, as reported, a rare occurrance. However, the Tennessean newspaper refused to publish my editorial sharing of our bear attack in Alaska in '96. ('A Can of Spray, A Lot of Luck'; Anchorage Daily News; 9/29/96) Missionary friend Keith benner and I attacked by brown bear--sprayed it in charge--but I was knocked down with side-arm swipe to the chest. Sprayed rest in its mouth--bear ran away--I jumped up--bear made u-turn, charged again. Resigned myself to being mauled but bear went around me, knocking Keith against tree before leaving. Pepper spray allowed a face to face encounter--risking mauling and death--whereas a firearm could have stopped it in its charge. almost all National Parks prohibit firearms (for us--but Rangers use them for bear protection, esp. in Glacier N.P.--where most bear attcks in "Lower '48" occur--meanwhile advising us to use pepper spray) [Wrangell-St.Elias National Park--Alaska--is the only N.P. to allow friearms for bear protection]. The woman killed in Smoky N.P. could still be alive were she allowed a firearm for defense. Finally, in follow up ADN article (10/06/96) biologists had determined pepper spray is ineffective on black bears due to a unique protective mucous coating. Information one will not find in propagandic outdoors magazines, etc. The Fort Collins Coloradoan did print my editorial this year--sorry do not have date available. Many rejections otherwise--few will print. GORP.com has banned my entries, and they manipulated my former posts--removing my strong arguments, leaving my weaker ones containing error. Best wishes to all---
Quote
http://www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/get/trails/Appalachian/350/1.html
Pepper spray not enough for bear attacks
PEPPER SPRAY
INEFFECTIVE
AGAINST BEARS
1. Although the (spring '00) bear mauling of the woman in the Smokies was a rarity, bear protection seems best with a firearm.
Missionary friend Keith Benner and I were attacked by brown bear (grizzly) along Kenai River in Alaska ('A Can of Spray, A Lot of Luck; Anchorage Daily News; 9/29/96).
Sprayed bear in charge--
I was knocked down with side-arm swipe to chest--
sprayed rest in bears mouth--bear ran away--
I jumped up---Bear made U-turn, charged again.
Resigned myself to being mauled--turned back to it so as not to see--
but bear went around me knocking Keith against tree before leaving. Pepper spray allowed face to face encounter--risking mauling and death--whereas a firearm (.338 rifle) could have stopped the bear in its charge.
Furthermore, ADN followup article cited biologists finding pepper spray ineffective on black bears due to a unique protective mucous coating (10/06/96).
http://www.trailquest.net/bears.html http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/092399/out_bears.html http://www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/get/trails/Appalachian/368.html
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
2. BEAR BLASTED WITH PEPPER SPRAY, HAD TO BE KILLED
The bear finally turned and ran after counselors blasted her with pepper spray and fired a flare at her feet, Prysunka said. Later Saturday, following the morning attack, officials found the sow in the campsite area on Deer Island in southeast Alaska and
killed her.
April 26, 2004
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20040426-2025-bearmauling.html11
http://www.geocities.com/alaskanativebaskets/pepper.notenuf.bear.html
Alaskan Native Baskets
Sorry guys -- I say a big gun is the only deterrent. Save the Pepper Juice for your enchiladas. At the risk of your own life, don't listen to them California sandal wearing, quiche eaten, white wine swilling, tree hugging left wing commie pinko enviro-nuts.
d* :)
The one mainly trying to save the bears was a recovering drug addict when he was eaten by the bears per an above linked article. An idiot.
Gun. That way you have something to eat afterwards. Mmmmm bear sausage is awesome!
Quote from: Daddymem on March 27, 2008, 02:05:45 PM
Gun. That way you have something to eat afterwards. Mmmmm bear sausage is awesome!
Depends on what they've been eating Daddymem. I learned my lesson early about eating garbage dump bears. :o
Around here G&F won't let you keep the dead marauding bear.
Shhhh --
I just bury them anyway. Someone told me they wouldn't skin them because they looked just like a man hanging there.
...and when the ticks start writhing and crawling off the dead bear I just don't feel much like eating it.
Warden spied my backhoe and asked me to bury the last one without taking any body parts for the natives etc. I buried it.
He said it would save him some work.
I found a reason to use bear spray.
Spike and I went prospecting a couple miles from the house. Found a mine -- decided to go look... but wait -- what's that nasty looking pile over there -- black -- berry seeds ugh--bear crap.
I grabbed the pruners to cut the vines and roots away from the opening to the drift.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/bearhole.jpg)
It was about a 30 degree angle down to the floor of the tunnel. I checked for loose hanging rocks then slid down in and stood up.
Things looked good -- decent porphyry clay walls. I started into the drift. Spike was whining a bit and didn't want to come in, but slowly he eased a bit into the tunnel. I went back about 50 feet to an intersection...a bit of water. Hmm - whats that funny looking black stuff? Another bear dump -- that's what . We decided now was a good time to leave.
May even consider some of that pepper spray. Not a great place to shoot even if I remembered my gun, and a .380 pistol would only make it mad anyway. Guess I should file the sights off of that gun too. [crz]
;D ;D
In this area there is a wild edible root called a "ramp" which is a cross between a onion and a garlic. This time of the year they are dug and consumed. This past week a guy was digging ramps near a old tree top. When he looked around to his dismay there was a 250# black bear standing on his back two legs with his ears turned back. "Easy as you go" he back up against a nearby tree and pulled out his pistol and started talking to the bear. He said that he was really too close to try moving away. Funny he said as he talked to the bear the bears ears would go point forward and then return to the back position when he stopped. After several minutes of converation the bear dropped down and wandered off. Someone asked him what he talked about and he said I was telling he bear that these were my ramps and I have worked too hard to give them to you.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on April 07, 2008, 12:10:03 AM
May even consider some of that pepper spray. Not a great place to shoot even if I remembered my gun, and a .380 pistol would only make it mad anyway. Guess I should file the sights off of that gun too. [crz]
Probably not a good spot to open up a pepper spray either. Unless you are wearing a mask.
Oh boy. Not trying to start any flame wars. Just one knuckleheaded opinion below.Apologies in advance as I predict this will be a long winded one...
Is the bear attacking (charging) or posturing (threatening)? Best way to put a bear down if you are hunting it is to fire a heavy caliber that penetrates through both shoulders. You won't get that target picture if it is charging.
Consider this. To stop a bear that is intent on hurting you (not bluffing), you will absolutely have to hit it in the central nervous system. BTW... this is also true for being attacked by a man with a knife. I forget the distance my FBI neighbor (former green beret, former secret service, short little cold-eyed guy) told me, but I seem to recall that it is something like 21 feet of comfort to stop a knife attack with a gun. It can be done in shorter range, but the odds change that you are going to be hurt.
Anyway, I like to holster up and play cowboy as much as anybody else. I'm also a competitive shooter and have done well at the collegiate and national level. No way in hell am I going to count on my skills with a handgun to "stop" a bear. If he is standing still and fussing at me, I could shoot him through his 'noggin. I do have to admit, that from a long distance you might have a chance of stopping that bear with a rifle before it gets to you. Within 20 yards, I bet on the bear.
Just for grins, try this for target practice.
Get an old tire. Tape a chunk of cardboard on both sides. Run a short dowel through the cardboard, and on one side of the dowel, attach another piece of cardboard, maybe 4" in diameter. Find a rocky hill, and figure out a way to stand down at the bottom of that hill while the tire is rolling at you. Don't start to shoot until the tire is going at least 20mph. I would bet (with generous odds) that most of us could not consistently hit that target with any projectile that comes out of a rifled barrel..pistol or long-gun. Try it! Heck, just for fun, run that tire sideways and try to hit the cardboard in the middle from 20 yards away.
I think the only practical defense from a gun standpoint is a 12ga, with single or double ought loads. Wide choked as possible, although that isn't really going to make much difference at 10 feet. But at least you get multiple projectiles.
Now how practical is it to carry a 12ga everywhere you go in the woods? I can't even manage to keep track of my wading staff while working my fly rod.
I'm going to count on counter assault spray in my left hand and and my Kimber .45 in my right. We all have to make our own choices on this, but I can't count on my shooting skills to stop a bear. I trust the odds of the bear spray for my conditions. BTW..This is not your mom's mace cannister.
I hope this link works... do note that in small quantities, bears are attracted to the smell. If you have to spray, go change your clothes asap. Especially your britches ;)
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:oAFMUif2qpoJ:www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm+counter+assault+bear+spray+video&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Stay safe!
-f-
Quote from: gandalfthegrey on April 07, 2008, 10:21:08 AM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on April 07, 2008, 12:10:03 AM
May even consider some of that pepper spray. Not a great place to shoot even if I remembered my gun, and a .380 pistol would only make it mad anyway. Guess I should file the sights off of that gun too. [crz]
Probably not a good spot to open up a pepper spray either. Unless you are wearing a mask.
Good point there too. I guess that's the part about spraying yourself with condiments for the bear who enjoys a good fresh pepper steak. [crz]
Anybody heard or knows what happens if you walk up on a hibernating bear. (Besides having the sights filed off your gun)? ???
I don't really have any illusions about my little .380 auto having any effect on a bear, Frank, but thanks for the warning anyway. It's more for protection from the dope growers where I may get to at least use it to make shooting noises back at them.
For the bear at this point -- I'm headed the other way.
At home with access to my rifle and a better edge I will shoot if there is a persistent problem only. If they are just passing through I leave them alone.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on April 07, 2008, 12:00:24 PM
At home with access to my rifle and a better edge I will shoot if there is a persistent problem only. If they are just passing through I leave them alone.
I've read that it is not bad to harrass them though. The rangers at Yosemite have taken to shooting bears with clear paint balls to discourage them from being around people and to retrain them that we are not benign. I wonder about this though, as some types of animals seem to remember taunting and appear to carry a grudge!
I have a different opinion on Cougars. I will shoot first and ask questions later....luckily NM has a very long cougar season for private land owners and the harvest does not count against the hunt unit headcount.
I almost agree with NM Glenn.
Spray won't help with a bear that's closed in.
Being in that hole is a dangerous thing to do. A charge in there is going to get you hurt. As pointed out, unless you hit the brain or spine, he will have enough steam to eat you for lunch before he dies.
Take a shotgun with buckshot and clear the hole before you start looking for gold.
I don't mind keeping close quarters with them, but only in the open.
I don't think I want to share that hole with that bear either. I cleared out of there right away.
I would still like to check it out though as it was in one of the most interesting mining areas around here.
I don't currently have a shotgun -- had an old single shot but ex-DIL got it back without asking -- previously belonged to her deceased dad.
No telling how far that hole goes until investigated. I don't know if a 12 ga w/ buckshot would clear that bear out or not. Seems it should leave or may have already left after hibernation.
Ideas? I don't really wish to help clean up the gene pool yet --- although it is probably too late to worry about that. The damage has already been done. d*
Shotgun info.
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/shotgunpace.htm
Looks like I may start looking for a Remington 870 - looks decent and relatively cheap.
Glenn, for short range stopping power (under 20 yards) a 12 ga with buckshot is the standard. It will kill any thin skinned game on the planet.
Which shotgun will start fights most places. I have always liked thee Mossberg 500 unless I plan on an extended magazine.
They make a bazillion 500 models, the JIC (Just In Case) could be the ticket.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddsnends2/51340.jpg)
$310-330 local, also stainless or camo for extra
Doesn't come with bear spray.
RE:
Quotethe JIC (Just In Case)
Love it. It need a pull strap on the case, maybe red with "Pull here in case of emergency"
Now your going to make me eat crow Don. The 500 has a tang safety that is awkward to reach with a pistol grip. The 870 has a crossbolt safety that's better suited to a pistol grip.
Speed is important.
AS far as I know, all 500's use the same receiver.
Never thought of that... would be hard to get your thumb up top... ??? I just knew I'd seen that gun a while back and thought the idea of their case was very cool. Keep it dry and clean no matter what. Sort of like my take down fishing rod case.
Still you can have much the same package in a Remington. Too bad it's not legal for us run of the mill civvies to own a 14" barrel 870 / pistol grip. :-\
Here watch this. Its a utube link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c
I bet that would stop any bear.
Larry
The Atchisson Assault shotgun, AA12.
I dunno... ??? it only fires about 300 rounds-per-minute. Pretty slow ;D ;D
Don,
Yeah your right with triple ought 000 buck 300 X 9=2700 projectiles a minuite. ;D
Larry
Quote from: MountainDon on April 08, 2008, 02:24:16 PM
Never thought of that... would be hard to get your thumb up top... ??? I just knew I'd seen that gun a while back and thought the idea of their case was very cool. Keep it dry and clean no matter what. Sort of like my take down fishing rod case.
Still you can have much the same package in a Remington. Too bad it's not legal for us run of the mill civvies to own a 14" barrel 870 / pistol grip. :-\
It's perfectly legal in most states Don.
You have to pay the ATF a 200.00 registration fee and the gun is legal at any length.
I built a 12 ga inline muzzleloading pistol. No fee for that at all.
I've always balked whenever large fees and special registrations came up.... but that is interesting to know/remember.
That sure would be a handy length to take along.
8)
If you use slugs in case of bear, do you need the rifled slug barrel or is it just less accurate in the standard barrel?
The rifling is on the slug base so just a smooth bore would work.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on April 09, 2008, 01:36:01 AM
If you use slugs in case of bear, do you need the rifled slug barrel or is it just less accurate in the standard barrel?
If we are still talking about bear attacks, at inside of 20 yards it won't matter much.
I guess inside of 20 yards I'd be dead meat anyway. Probably no need to worry about that as if it ever happened, I probably wouldn't have access to a gun, it wouldn't do any good anyway and if it was a situation where I had access and a choice, I would still go for my 30.06.
I dunno Glenn, with a 12 ga, you would have an interesting chance I think. I'd pay to watch and would probably even bet on you. Although I don't think I'd want slugs for that. Buckshot would be better. I think you would have better than a 50/50 chance.
12ga with slugs has been known to be an effective round for African lions. And they can be very accurate, even in a smoothbore. I had an old O/U that allowed me to shoot 20ga slugs out of the bottom barrel and 22mag out of the top. I used to use this to hunt deer and squirrels on the same day. My iron sights were set for the slug, and a scope for the .22. I could hit a paint bucket at 50 yards out of that smoothbore 20ga 100% from a rest.
Just a gi-normous BB gun!
So.. what do you think folks... Glenn + 12ga vs. the bear. $10 cover charge..I think I'd go 3:1 favoring Glenn.
Here's an interesting picture of one of the cabins on the property I am building on. Note the paw print smears on the window too. Must not have wanted to get in too badly. One of the corners had a chunk chewed out of it.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q46/nm_longshot/paw.jpg)
A rather long account of a friend from frontierFreedom Forum
THE LONGEST MINUTE
Doug White
September 16, 2006
We all have read about or seen movies entitled, 'The Longest Day', 'The Longest Yard', or 'The Longest Mile'. Well, I am going to tell you about "The Longest Minute" of my life.
Reed Thompson and I had been hunting hard for five days. The day was Thursday, September 7, 2006. The weather had turned from beautiful sunny skies to gale force winds and the blasting rain that comes with fall storms. Never has the weather dictated hunting time to us, so out we ventured into the Alaska bush. Not seeing a single bull for several days, we decided to hunt an area downstream that had always produced one.
Late in the evening, we were walking down a raised half mile long finger of ground that was full of grass and alders. This turf was slightly higher than the swampy tundra on either side of it. We had slogged across the swamp as quickly as possible, during a sudden deluge, to get to the downwind point. Our hope was that our passage would not be observed with the sudden increased wind and rain. About halfway down the finger, Reed turned to me and said, "I think there is a moose up ahead. It looks like two white sticks in the grass. It would surprise me if it was not a moose." I glassed the area about one hundred yards ahead and to the left. With Reed's help, I zeroed in on the two white sticks and watched them for several minutes. With the slightest movement, the two sticks transformed into a white paddle and then back to the two sticks. The bull had moved his head ever so slightly.
I moved my scope out to ten-power and focused in on the two white sticks as Reed moved about ten yards further down the high ground. Then as Reed focused on the white points, I moved to his location for a better shot. Reed began moving toward our quarry as I watched for movement though the scope. With nothing solid or high enough to rest my rifle on, I was forced to aim free-hand. When Reed had taken a few steps, I saw the horns rock to the right and then back to the left. The big boy then stood up and was looking directly our way. Even with the forty mile an hour winds blowing directly at us, he sensed our presence. I squeezed off a round from my Browning .338 and felt good about the shot, but the bull took two or three steps to my right and disappeared out of sight behind some alders. Reed could still see him and shouted, "Do you want me to shoot him?" I yelled back at him to go ahead because I did not want the bull running too far. I heard his shot as I was scrambling forward to get a better look. After a thirty yard hustle, I was able to see the huge fellow still standing. I put another shot into him and watched him drop. We both hesitantly, but with great excitement, approached this giant and realized that he was dead. This was a mature bull with a beautiful rack and the biggest body mass I had ever seen. The fun was definitely over; now, the real work was ready to begin. After consulting the GPS, we noted that we were a half mile from the slough and boat. It was decided that both of us should return to the boat to discard unnecessary items and return with the gear needed to prepare and pack out the meat. We placed red and blue handkerchiefs high in an alder bush so that the sight could be located from the adjacent high ground. This was the easiest half mile hike of the day. I was pumped up and excited beyond explanation.
Continued
Continuation
At the boat, we left our heavy rifles. We gathered our pack frames, game bags, ropes, and knives. After Reed repositioned the boat, to compensate for the upcoming low tide, I asked him, with hand signals, if he remembered to get the handguns. He did not understand my award winning charade performance, but I let it pass after observing his revolver strapped to his chest.
Upon returning to the moose, we were hot, sweaty, and wet. The rain had abated for awhile, so we removed our rain gear and hung them in a small tree about five yards perpendicular to the moose's belly. Reed removed his revolver, hung it on a branch opposite his jacket, and brought to my attention that it was hanging there.
With darkness approaching, we decided on removing the top front and rear quarters, tie them to our pack frames, gut him out, and then roll the behemoth over to cool through the night. We would return in the morning to finish up. Two non-spoken traditions when hunting are: whoever pulls the trigger 1) does the gutting and 2) hauls the horns out of the woods. After removing the two quarters, it was time to remove the internal organs. After cutting, tearing, and ripping, I had removed all but the heart and part of the esophagus. Darkness was settling in pretty fast and I could barely move my arms. At this point, Reed said that he would trade places with me. Instead of moving up behind the moose, I just scooted to the rear leg area and watched Reed crawl up inside the gut cavity. After a couple of cuts the ordeal was over. As Reed pulled the heart out and tossed it behind us, a loud "HUFF" snapped us to our feet. Turning around, we saw standing before us, on his hind legs a large, chocolate brown grizzly bear. The next minute seemed to last an eternity. The term surreal is so over used, but the next minute was dreamlike, bizarre, fantastic, and unreal.
The bear was standing next to the tree where the pistol was hanging. We both started shouting and waving our arms back and forth, as we moved somewhat to our right, toward the tail end of the moose. The bear came down off his back legs, onto all fours, and started circling to his right -- toward the head of the bull. My only thought was to get to the gun so that we could scare him off. I sensed that he charged us from the head of the moose as I broke for the gun. Reed commented later that the bear vaulted over the moose and went straight for him. Halfway to the tree, I tripped on a fallen log and went down on all fours. From my peripheral vision on my right, I saw the bear going after Reed, who had moved into the tall (5 foot) grass. It appeared that the bear had knocked Reed down and was standing over him. My worst fear was that my friend was being mauled. I did not know how I would get him back to the boat and then home.
Continued
Continuation:
I grabbed the holster but was unable to remove the revolver, regardless of how hard I tugged. As I looked up, I saw the bear charging toward me. I started backing up as I continued screaming and hollering at the bear. I was frustrated that the pistol would not break free from the holster. With the bear almost on top of me, I fell over another log. I did a back drop and felt him grab my left leg. His huge head was above my lap, just out of reach of my holstered club. I tried to hit him with the pistol but a crazy thought entered my mind that I could scare him into thinking I was going to shoot by waving it back and forth. Unable to remove the pistol from the holster, I tried to shoot through it, but the strap held the hammer down on the single action revolver. Just when I thought all was lost, the bear rose up, pivoted 90 degrees to his left, and was gone. The grizzly had charged back in the direction of Reed as he had jumped up and yelled once again. Later, Reed stated that he had seen the bear knock me down and thought he was mauling me. The thought entered his mind that he was toast. He was alone in the grass with no weapon. I was down and I had the gun. When the bear started moving toward him, Reed dropped back down into the low wallow area where he had fallen during the initial charge. Reed saw the bear's face about a foot from his own. He could hear the bear trying to sniff him out. At that point, the bear stood up, pivoted to his right, and charged back to me.
When Reed distracted the bear from its attack on me, I had time to concentrate on the holster. I saw a buckle with a strap running through it. I could not figure out how it held the gun in place, so I grabbed the buckle and attempted to \rip it off. To my surprise, the buckle was actually a snap and the strap peeled away. As I pulled the revolver out, a sudden calm came over me, and I knew everything would be fine. I looked in the direction of Reed only to once again see the bear charging at me. He was about ten feet away coming up and over the initial log that I had tripped over. That was when I pointed the revolver and fired at center mass. The 44 magnum boomed in the night and the boar fell straight down, his head three feet away from where I stood. As he fell, he bit at the ground and ended up with a mouthful of sod. I stood in a dumbfounded stupor. I had no expectation that the pistol would kill the bear. My hope was that the shot would sting the bear and help scare him away along with the flame and loud report. As his head sagged to the ground, I shot him three more times in quick succession, out of fear and anger.
My next sensation was hearing Reed's voice ask if the bear was dead. I answered, "Yes". He then yelled at me to save the rest of the rounds because we still had to walk out, and he did not have any more bullets with him. The minute was over. We hugged each other for a long time, before packing out the two quarters.
_From ________________
Jim (Alaska)
Alaska Gold Forum
Jim Foley's Alaska
Good story!
Glenn, use buckshot!
First there is the multiple projectile theory!
Second, your more likely to hit the spine or brain.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on April 09, 2008, 06:51:41 PM
So.. what do you think folks... Glenn + 12ga vs. the bear. $10 cover charge..I think I'd go 3:1 favoring Glenn.
I've really been mulling the spray/revolver/rifle/shotgun question around at lot over the winter.
1. spray This is a must have. One for each of us.
2. revolver Maybe it's the subliminal cowboy that likes this. :-\ But useless for a bear for real protection.
3. rifle I have an emotional bond with the 45-70...
4. shotgun ...but a 12 ga. pump with buckshot seems to find favor with a lot of folks. Not sure about the pistol grip. I have to investigate that more... mostly it seems to be easier to haul around. ???
Glenn w/12 ga. buckshot vs the bear... ??? I'll go with Glenn.
Quote from: MountainDon on April 09, 2008, 08:52:10 PM
Quote from: NM_Shooter on April 09, 2008, 06:51:41 PM
So.. what do you think folks... Glenn + 12ga vs. the bear. $10 cover charge..I think I'd go 3:1 favoring Glenn.
I've really been mulling the spray/revolver/rifle/shotgun question around at lot over the winter.
1. spray This is a must have. One for each of us.
2. revolver Maybe it's the subliminal cowboy that likes this. :-\ But useless for a bear for real protection.
3. rifle I have an emotional bond with the 45-70...
4. shotgun ...but a 12 ga. pump with buckshot seems to find favor with a lot of folks. Not sure about the pistol grip. I have to investigate that more... mostly it seems to be easier to haul around. ???
Glenn w/12 ga. buckshot vs the bear... ??? I'll go with Glenn.
I don't like the pistol grip because it is lousey for aiming and having the butt end on a shot gun is handy for stabilizing the gun even if your shooting off the hip. You shoot 3 1/2" Mags off only your wrist and you will probley only do it a couple times. A folding stock might be nice for packing it around but for me I want the real thing not the TV Show Shooters. Real hard to line up your sites/barrle on a target with a pistol grip and if it is a bear you may only get one shot! Mark
Quote from: MountainDon on April 09, 2008, 08:52:10 PM
Quote from: NM_Shooter on April 09, 2008, 06:51:41 PM
So.. what do you think folks... Glenn + 12ga vs. the bear. $10 cover charge..I think I'd go 3:1 favoring Glenn.
I've really been mulling the spray/revolver/rifle/shotgun question around at lot over the winter.
1. spray This is a must have. One for each of us.
2. revolver Maybe it's the subliminal cowboy that likes this. :-\ But useless for a bear for real protection.
3. rifle I have an emotional bond with the 45-70...
4. shotgun ...but a 12 ga. pump with buckshot seems to find favor with a lot of folks. Not sure about the pistol grip. I have to investigate that more... mostly it seems to be easier to haul around. ???
Glenn w/12 ga. buckshot vs the bear... ??? I'll go with Glenn.
I understand all your issues Don. My 45/70 is my baby, friend and pride and joy. I will always have a place for it in my hunting rifles. It's name is Thumper BTW. My 44 mag (named bumper) goes when I don't carry anything else. Tomorrow when I go to the farm to spread gravel and Bigkidd helps with other stuff, it's going along. My 410/45lc derringer (The Baby Boomer) goes fishing with me and in my pocket sometimes in the city.
None of my other guns have names. The 45/70 is difficult to disassemble and clean if it really gets crudded up inside. I also don't want to take a chance of dunking it in the river.
I built this recent shotgun for some specific reasons. It's easy to hit with at close range (I don't shoot as well as I used to) It will take a beating or dunking and is easy to clean. Screw up the barrel...no problem, just throw another on. It is very powerful and unbelievably versicle, requiring just a handful of different shells. It's accurate enough to 100 yards with slugs, will shoot small game or snakes with birdshot and extremely deadly at close range with buckshot.
With a good sling it's easy to carry and still be lightening fast to use.
It's a walkin around gun! ;D
Change is difficult to get used to...It happens. My favorite city gun has always been a 3 inch S&W 44 Special. Recently, I've started carrying a M26 tasr. Sometimes with the baby boomer. Why...As I've gotten older, I have developed a greater respect for life (Even low life, money stealing, city dwelling, dope smoking yankee transplants) ;D. To be honest, I'm not sure I can shoot anyone anymore. Go figure!
Believe me there is a method to this madness. Load the pump with buckshot OO with the exception of the last in the magazine and use a slug. That way the first shot which would be with further distance and the shock affect will slow the target down and give plenty of time to shuck the OO for follow-up closer shots. Use just the opposite effect for two legged. Buck first and then slug. Don't ask me how I know this.
Damn Yankees. I learned to say that trucking in Texas.
The guys on the AGF didn't recommend the pistol grip on the shotgun. Seems it would be hard to control and probably tear my wrist off.
Buckshot size for Bear? Looks like John just posted 00 -- although I prefer to wait until it leaves for the summer -- I hope. I've been thinking about putting fishing line across the opening to see if it's used or not...although it could still be sleeping in there. I wonder if they get mad if you wake them up?
Maybe I should take it a cup of coffee and the Sunday Morning paper. hmm
Gandalf, that was actually Jim Alaska?
I type at him on the AGF.
Might be time for a gamecam Glenn. I just ordered 2 of these:
http://www.scouting-cam.com/scgusgscca.html
That could be a good idea - If I hid it well enough to keep it from getting ripped off. Not many people down there but it is BLM land or right next to it. I don't know where the line is for sure.
If you're interested in more, lots more info, on game cameras go to http://www.chasingame.com/forum/index.php
There's guys there who've given the cameras a 3D camo job, beginning with liquid nails and then camo paint. There are also steel cases avaiable. :-\
I've shot the pistol gripped shotguns and didn't feel like I could control them very well. If I was in an area with large bears and was willing to carry a long arm it would be the 45-70 lever action. A .44 mag revolver would be my handgun of choice.
Here in the southeast where everything except hogs are smaller my walking around guns are a 30-30 or a .44 mag rifle. If I lived in S GA where hogzilla resides I might want that 45-70. I've alway lived in woodsy, brushy areas where long shots were not likely. I've owned a few long range rifles but have never hunted an area where they would be necessary. On my property if you just sit still on a stump for a while you'll get a 25 - 40 yd. shot at a deer. You don't need to be a great marksman or have a big gun for that.
A 250 lb. bear would be an average black bear hereabouts. Neither as large, aggressive or tenacious as the western varieties.
Thanks Don.
Guess I better research the boundaries and see what my chances are of actually getting to play there.
This mine is one of few open ones in one of the hottest mining districts around here and about 2 miles from my house-- dates back to about 1860. I just wish I knew if that bear was home or not. Guess I better read up on the sleeping habits of bears now.
Hey Glenn have you seen the movie
The Ghost and the Darkness?
True story mostly. The real Lions of Tsavo were mane less.
No - haven't seen that one.
peter nap hangs around that game camera site as well. He supplied the lead.
http://www.chasingame.com/forum/index.php
Quote from: glenn kangiser on April 09, 2008, 10:00:01 PM
Gandalf, that was actually Jim Alaska?
I type at him on the AGF.
The one and only! He does get around.
I've lived in Alaska for over 40 years and I can't remember a bear attack (black or brown) that was initiated more than 25-30 yards away---almost always when the bear is either surprised or is protecting a previous kill such as a moose carcass. Believe me a big brownie can cover that distance at least as fast as a good quarterhorse. I don't know any experienced hunter/fisherman here who would not prefer a 12 ga loaded with 00 buck and slugs for their last ditch weapon---though those large bear sprays (not people sprayers) also have proven to be pretty effective. A handgun is certainly better than nothing but unless the person holding it is extremely good (and lucky) he will probably not be able to strike the very small spot on a grizzlies' forehead to bring it down immediately. Bears seldom stand up as they attack---usually only when they are not sure what you are and are trying to get a better look at you which means a successful frontal heart shot is also unlikely. A major advantage to a load of 00 from a 12 ga at close range is the good chance of blinding a charging bear. Also, the shocking power of a 12 ga 1 1/4 oz slug or even the 00 is truly stupendous. I have never personally had to survive a bear charge, but I have had four friends mauled by brownies, two were killed, two survived. One survivor had a 30.06, though he never got a shot off before the bear was on him, one had a 44 magnum and he failed to get an effective shot off before TWO browns took turns on him (he had interrupted a brown bear honeymoon near Skwenta) His story of survival was printed in Readers Digest several years ago. The two killed (mother & son) were jogging just outside Anchorage when they surprised a brown bear who had a fresh moose kill just off the trail they were on.
Thanks, rwanders. A while back on another thread about bears and defense another Alaskan ststed very much the same thing.
Over the years I have been fortunate. Fortunate in that a couple times as I proceeded up a trail I was downwind (sheer dumb luck) and saw the bears before they saw me, but they were only about 50-60 feet ahead, just over a slight rise. (Mom and cubs once, on opposite sides of the trail.) That could have had a different end result. That was in a national park in BC and back then I didn't even have bear spray! I always wondered what if the bears had smelled me, would they have have retreated before I ever saw them? :o
Fortunate in that I once woke early, heard rummaging noises outside the tent, peered out and saw a bear sitting on the picnic table across the campground road. Also in a national park. I quietly got in the car and took pictures as the bear destroyed the picnic cooler.
There have been some other times along trails and in campgrounds but those are the ones that stick in my mind the most. Fortunately I keep a clean camp and the less tidy campers get visited before myself.
Last year we were alerted to the presence of a bear in the immediate vicinity by a still warm pile of stool and suspicious nearby noises. It sounded very close. The area is well treed with low long range visibility due to low bushy trailside vegetation. Of course we know there are bears around us, this was just a hot reminder.
I think my luck must be wearing thin so I want to up the ante.
On the pistol grip yes/no question... something I just discovered for anyone looking at a new shotgun ... there is an 18 1/2 inch barrel model 500 that comes with the pistol grip included. Same safety operation issue as Peter mentioned. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Just for a weird hijack offering:
A kid showed up at a sporting clay shoot that I was at with a pistol grip shotgun. It had a buttstock, but also a pistol grip, sort of like an AR15. I think it was a Mossberg...People sort of snickered, but he broke 70/100 that day and beat most shooters. (While using the pistol grip, no less)
Quote from: NM_Shooter on April 11, 2008, 10:07:41 AM
Just for a weird hijack offering:
A kid showed up at a sporting clay shoot that I was at with a pistol grip shotgun. It had a buttstock, but also a pistol grip, sort of like an AR15. I think it was a Mossberg...People sort of snickered, but he broke 70/100 that day and beat most shooters. (While using the pistol grip, no less)
Now that pistol grip added to the buttstock is nice! I am thinking of adding one to my defence shotgun. It gives you a solid grip to pull the stock into your sholder and also allow you hand to take some of the kick. The pistol grip I don't like is the one they put on after they remove the stock and try to make it look like a pistol instead. Mark
More reading. More looking.
There is no doubt at all that a good bear spray should be carried by both parties (me & K) up in the mountains.
But the large bore rifle vs shotgun thing has me wondering still. The more I read about shotguns and dangerous animals I see more disagreement on 00 buckshot vs rifled slugs.
Looking at the ability to penetrate thick fur and hide deeply enough to do damage, it seems that buckshot is at the bottom of the list, a slug are better, but a 400 gr. 45-70 bullet penetrates best of the three. But I'm still looking.
Where does the 30.06 fit into the above power ranges you mention, Don? I'm not familiar with the 45-70.
It's my only larger rifle -- learned to shoot with one and it's all I ever got.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on April 12, 2008, 01:49:09 AM
Where does the 30.06 fit into the above power ranges you mention, Don? I'm not familiar with the 45-70.
It's my only larger rifle -- learned to shoot with one and it's all I ever got.
Boy....this subject has started more bar fights than looksom ladies.
My opinion.... ???, All three are world class cartridges !!!!!!
All three have killed everything in the world including Elephant.
The Marlin Guide Gun, which Don and I both have abd both love, was designed for people in Bear country.
So here is my opinion without throwing ballistic coefficients. Sectional densities Velocities, etc at you:
under 20 yards, the 12 ga with buckshot, wither 00 or 000.
20 to 100 yards, the 45/70.
100 to 275 yards, the 30/06 with 189 gr bullets
Guys,
A real good brush gun is a Ruger .44mag carbine. Still only good out to about 100 yards. But its fairly light and holds five rounds. What I realy like about it is its short enough to get into action quickly and automatic. I have even shot one single handed and its not to bad to control. Does kick pretty good being short and light though about like a single shot 12ga. with 3in. mag.. If interested in one of these get an older model they have changed, the new ones are not as dependable. I found one last year at a gun show I should have bought for $400.
Larry
QuoteBoy....this subject has started more bar fights than looksom ladies.
No kidding! Let's confuse this even more
Downrange as Peter said the 30-06 would be the best of these three although still considered light for big bear. If I had to use it up close I'd use 200 - 220 grain solid bullets.
Up close and personal the shotgun or 45-70 would likely be better. Either of those is throwing about an ounce of lead at the critter, more than twice the 180 grain 30-06 load. The 30-06 bullet is meant to hold velocity and expand at the remaining velocity 100 - 200 yds downrange. At point blank range on a thick boned animal it is more likely to fragment and less likely to break heavy bone than the others.
This thread has only touched on shot placement. rwanders brought up the difficulties of a brain or heart shot if the bear is charging. The buckshot in the eyes might be one strategy with the hope of hitting the brain or at least buying time for follow up shot(s). Another would be to try to go through a shoulder and hit other vital organs or spine. A shattered shoulder will likely cause the bear to stumble again giving you some time. For that shot the 12 ga. slug or 45-70 is far better.
There is one other issue with the 45-70. A lot of ammo manufacturers sell loads suitable for use in the late civil war era Trapdoor Springfield. These loads intended for that comparatively weak action are pretty wimpy by modern standards. The Marlin lever action and several others can handle MUCH hotter loads. That ammo will have a warning on the box "only for use in ............" Garrett cartridges has a 45-70 load with a 540 grain bullet.
These are the rumination of a one who has NOT been there - done that. I've shot a lot and hunted some but never where big critters with bad attitudes live.
Anything in roughly the 30-06 class and up can and has killed anything that walks the planet. It has been said that the lowly 7x57 Mauser (less powerful than 30-06) has killed more Elephants than any other cartridge. Military surplus rifles in that caliber were plentiful and cheap in Africa after the Boer War. A lot of the Ivory hunters in the early 1900's used it and the even less powerful 6x55 Swede. W.D.M. "Karamojo" Bell used the later to kill most of his roughly 1000 elephants. In todays would it is illegal to hunt the big 5 with anything smaller than a .375 mag. which has roughly twice the power. Most hunters uses even more powerful cartridges. Poachers still often use the smaller guns. I have a friend who is the editor of African Hunter web site. I always liked his description of a brain shot on an elephant. "It's like trying to hit a basketball somewhere inside a Volkswagen". Clearly he favored body shots.
So in the end choose your weapon, pick your shot(s), run like hell, change your shorts.
This is getting interesting - thanks. guys.
Lot's of calibers discussed here
http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm)
BTW It is my understanding that Native Americans in the north used to hunt polar bear with .22 hornet rifles. While better than a spear still not for the faint of heart.
Found this excerpt while poking about the web... Definitely not enough gun
I had one rush me when i was about 6. It was a black bear though, and not as big as that one. My dog scared it off. I remember standing there frozen holding my water gun pointed at the bear.
Proud Canadian Redneck
Rifle Cartridge Killing Power List
taken from http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power_list.htm
Factors included in the calculations factors are velocity, energy, bullet weight, sectional density (SD), and bullet cross-sectional area (frontal area).
The calcs were were done for 100 yards, which is not the range we'd be talking here, but it's something to look at. Here is the formula:
Energy at 100 yards (in foot pounds) x Sectional Density (taken from reloading manuals) x Bullet Frontal Area (in square inches) = Killing Power figure at 100 yards.
some of the numbers...
.223 WSSM (64 grain at 3600 fps) - 10.1
.243 Winchester (100 grain at 2960 fps) - 18.1
.25-06 Remington (120 grain at 2990 fps) - 26.5
.270 Winchester (130 grain at 3150 fps) - 35.0
.270 Winchester (150 grain at 2850 fps) - 37.4
7mm-08 Remington (140 grain at 2860 fps) - 33.6
.30-30 Winchester (150 grain at 2390 fps) - 22.8
.30-30 Winchester (170 grain at 2200 fps) - 25.4
.308 Winchester (150 grain at 2820 fps) - 34.7
.308 Winchester (180 grain at 2620 fps) - 46.2
.30-06 Springfield (150 grain at 2920 fps) - 37.3
.30-06 Springfield (180 grain at 2700 fps) - 49.2
.303 British (180 grain at 2460 fps) - 40.1
.338 Winchester Magnum (250 grain at 2650 fps) - 94.8
.357 Magnum (Rifle) (158 grain at 1830 fps) - 12.7
.44 Remington Magnum (Rifle) (240 grain at 1760 fps) - 26.4
.444 Marlin (265 grain at 2325 fps) - 63.4
.45-70 Government (300 grain at 1810 fps) - 50.1
.45-70 Government (405 grain at 1330 fps) - 55.0
.450 Marlin (350 grain at 2100 fps) - 88.9
.458 Winchester Magnum (500 grain at 2090 fps) - 217.3
I don't have the 100 yd. ballistics but compare these 45-70 #'s to the Muzzle Vel. in () above.
420-gr @ 1850-fps
540-gr @ 1550-fps
from Garrett cartridges
Well, when I was about 18 y/o, a friend & I were camping up by Tenaya Lake in Yosemite - had a small fire, laid our sleeping bags on the ground, our ice chest on the picnic table & went to sleep. A crash woke us up, we looked & there was a big brown bear - it had just knocked our ice chest on the ground... I froze, thinking if I was quiet, it would leave us alone. My friend started yelling & successfully fought it off with handfuls of sand ::) :o
She & I ended up sleeping in the car for the rest of the night c*
Quotesuccessfully fought it off with handfuls of sand
There you go Don & Glenn. A small child and two young women fought off bears with a water pistol and handfuls of sand, while we contemplate high powered rifles. Men are such wimps ;D
Sorry to disagree with you, John, but I can't think of anything more fierce than a screaming woman throwing handfuls of sand.
I don't blame the bear for running away and I don't feel a man should be belittled or called a wimp for doing similar. [crz]
QuoteI can't think of anything more fierce than a screaming woman throwing handfuls of sand.
Ummmm ... handfuls of cast iron cookware perhaps???
I knew one who effectively used that also. No -- I wasn't married to her.
Years ago I was visiting some friends overnight. His wife was pregnant at the time. That morning she offered to cook us breakfast. We where sitting in the living room talking when all the sudden a cast iron skillet came flying across the room followed by "Cook your own breakfast!". Needless to say we decided to eat out.
[quote author=John C link=topic=4252.msg52855#msg52855 date=1208020953
There you go Don & Glenn. A small child and two young women fought off bears with a water pistol and handfuls of sand, while we contemplate high powered rifles. Men are such wimps ;D
[/quote]
I believe the startle factor comes into play at times too. Works both ways too. ;D
Quote from: John C on April 12, 2008, 09:07:15 AM
There is one other issue with the 45-70. A lot of ammo manufacturers sell loads suitable for use in the late civil war era Trapdoor Springfield. These loads intended for that comparatively weak action are pretty wimpy by modern standards. The Marlin lever action and several others can handle MUCH hotter loads. That ammo will have a warning on the box "only for use in ............" Garrett cartridges has a 45-70 load with a 540 grain bullet.
Very true. I have no doubt the Garrett's are truly fine. There are a number of ammo manufacturers who load the 45-70 for modern firearms, other than Garrett. Grizzly and Buffalo Bore have some potent +P loads with heavy bullets and their prices are not as dear as Garrett.
Of course you can always hand load anything your heat desires.
I don't know how many of you read all the way through the info reference that NM_Shooter posted back a ways... but one handy hint was to carry a small amount of baby Shampoo, the No-Tears type, just in case you got some on yourself, in your own eyes sometime. :D
I had a friend here in Alaska back in 1968 who bought a 458 Mag (beautiful gun!) and decided to take it on a caribou hunt at Eureka. Made a beautiful shoulder shot on a large caribou from about 200 yards. It went down like a bag of cement. Whenever we got up to it the entrance point was perfect. However, the exit wound on the other side was very interesting----when I stopped laughing, I walked over and picked up the forequarter it had ripped completely off that bull. The lung cavity looked like a grenade had gone off in it. I don't know what you really need one of those behemoths for----seems like overkill even for a Kodiak Brown Bear.
My African hunter friend has a .458 Lott, a souped up .458 Win Mag. Ammo is about $5 a shot. When we go to the range people are begging him to let them fire of a few. One or two usually does it, both for their wallet and their shoulder. I've never fired the thing. I wear ear plugs & ear muffs when I'm at the adjacent firing bench shooting my array of sissy guns. He did go shoot a water buffalo in heavy cover... probably a good tool for that job.
I find it difficult to imagine what it would feel like firing one of those. :o
I ordered two replacement Counter Assault bear sprays today. They were getting on in years.
FWIW, here's a recoil chart to go along with the previous one
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
The author opines that for most people 15 foot pounds of free recoil energy and 10 fps of recoil velocity represent the approximate upper limit of the comfort level. I think I'd go along with that.
...excerpts... pounds foot-pounds feet per sec.
Cartridge (Wb@MV) Rifle Weight Recoil energy Recoil velocity
.22 LR (40 at 1165) 4.0 0.2 n/a
.223 Rem. (62 at 3025) 7.0 3.9 6.0
.22-250 Rem. (55 at 3600) 8.5 4.7 6.0
.243 Win. (100 at 2960) 7.5 8.8 8.7
.270 Win. (150 at 2900) 8.0 17.0 11.7
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860) 8.0 12.6 10.1
.30-30 Win. (150 at 2400) 7.5 10.6 9.5
.30-30 Win. (170 at 2200) 7.5 11.0 9.7
.308 Win. (150 at 2800) 7.5 15.8 11.7
.308 Win. (180 at 2610) 8.0 17.5 11.9
.30-06 Spfd. (150 at 2910) 8.0 17.6 11.9
.30-06 Spfd. (180 at 2700) 8.0 20.3 12.8
.338 Win. Mag. (250 at 2700) 9.0 33.1 15.4
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1760) 7.5 11.2 9.8
.444 Marlin (240 at 2400) 7.5 23.3 14.2
.450 Marlin (350 at 2000) 7.0 37.2 18.5
.45-70 (300 at 1800) 7.0 23.9 14.8
.45-70 (405 at 1330) 7.5 18.7 12.7
.458 Win. Mag. (500 at 2100) 9.0 62.3 21.1
.458 Lott (500 at 2300) 10.0 70.4 21.3
.50 BMG (647 at 2710) 30.0 70.0 12.3
When sitting at the bench sighting it in Alan would put a 1/2 full bag of lead shot between the rifle and his shoulder. Pilgrims who just wanted to shoot the thing would just sit down and press the thing against their t-shirt and tell him the trick is a firm grip. Then BOOM and "Whoa...Crap ... That Hurts". I'm chuckling as I type remembering ... Twenty or so minutes later someone who hadn't seen the show would ask if they could shoot it.
My single shot .44 mag rifle is under 7 pounds. Because it's a single shot I can seat the bullet out a bit and fill the additional space with powder. With that & the longer barrel I drive the 240 gr. bullet @ 2300 fps (chronographed). It has a curved plastic butt plate and smacks you pretty good. If I'm going to shoot a lot from the bench I use a .243 that weighs about 8.5 lbs. No worries. A few years ago I worked up a load for the .44 that is actually a little less powerful than factory ammo but shoots ok. I also have a very light load... I think it starts the 240 gr bullet out at about 900 fps. It's good for small game since the bullet doesn't expand. And some shotshells for the occasional snake. It makes a good all round Eastern woods rifle. Unfortunately it's the hot load that is the most accurate.
In 1805 as the Lewis & Clark Expedition approached the Rocky Mountains the local Indians warned them of the large, ferocious bears the would encounter in that region. The men of the expedition dismissed the warning as those of people who only had primitive weapons. They had Kentucky long rifles that could kill anything.
After they encountered the bears and had been driven up trees, forced into rivers and forced to flee from bears that had taken 10 or 12 good hits, Meriwether Lewis wrote in his journal, "I believe the mens curiosity with regard to this animal has been satisfied".
What a rude awakening. They should have listened. I wonder if they lost any men to the bears?
Nope. One of the amazing things about the Lewis & Clark Expedition is that they only suffered one fatality. Early in the expedition one of the men died of what is now believed to have been a ruptured appendix. At that time there was nothing anyone could have done for him.
Those were also very tough men. I read a recent book on their expedition. Really an amazing trip.
No Kidding!
Patrick Gass tried to enlist when the Civil War started.... He was nearly 90 and had lost an eye in the War of 1812.
This is too funny. From the Wikipedia article on Patrick Gass
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/GassBearPix1807.jpg)
Nobody who came out west back then expected any government welfare. They didn't expect somebody else to make good on any errors they made.
I don't wannt to hijack this thread too bad. Maybe we need a Mountain Men (& Women) of yesterday topic? I have a new book I'll pop into the Book Corner Topic later.
gotta run...
It wasn't just the mountain men. I used to do a lot of sailing. In sailing parlance those were "the days of wooden ships and iron men".
rofl
John C That's hillarious. Somewhere in my family archive there is a picture of my older brother in that same situation. He was a boy scout at the jamborie (Yellowstone I believe). Thanks for that. rofl
Quote from: John C on April 14, 2008, 12:41:15 PM
It wasn't just the mountain men. I used to do a lot of sailing. In sailing parlance those were "the days of wooden ships and iron men"
If anyone has any doubt of that statement they should try to visit a historical sailing ship from the 1700's through 1800's. What passed for crew's quarters wouldn't be tolerated in any of our modern day jails and prisons. You could never even stand upright below decks. And lights were usually forbidden as they were candles or oil lamps and the fire danger was too great.
It boggles the mind to think that men volunteered to go to sea and live under such conditions, not only for months at a time, but for years as in the old whaling vessels. Whalers would set out from New England, travel round the 'horn', spend a couple years in the pacific, then sail back home.
It could have been for the "love of the sea" which I doubt. Just like now it was for the money and a job. Sort of like the crab fishing in Alaska. The work is terrible with a lot of risk but the money is good if you survive the ocean in the winter months. I am sure it took a special kind of individual sort of like the earlier pioneers to seek that type of endeavor.
Back to the bears...
Counter Assault has a "new" product. It was added to their line last year, but I never saw it until the other day.
It's a portable electric bear fence for protecting your victuals, etc.
http://counterassault.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=3
rwanders sent me this as he was having a posting issue...
This is another technique used on occasion in Alaska when dealing with polar bears.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/animals/image001.jpg)
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/animals/image002.jpg)
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/animals/image003.jpg)
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/animals/image004.jpg)
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/animals/image005.jpg)
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/animals/image006.jpg)
What a game of tag! I hope this all turned out with a satisfactory ending.
Whoa!! There was something weird going on there! I thought that got double posted; it was a set of quints! d* d*
The only thing that comes to mind is that he must have locked his keys in the Bronco. Either that or he left his mind at home as he passed both doors a couple of times.
Whoa.
So what needed to happen before the other photographer put down the camera and pulled out a gun?
Or maybe there was another, one with a gun one with a camera?
At least I hope there was a gunner along. I didn't post one line of the description... something about the hazards of Alaskan photography. Note the very healthy sized tripod leaning against the pickup truck.
Got to admit that's a nice looking bear. :)
Here's the best end of a polar bear to be seeing.
(Taken in the town of Churchill, Manitoba. A too common sight. Bears, not the butts)
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/animals/polar-bear-trio_63.jpg)
After a successful afternoon I've got my new hiking/atv'ing/jeeping/hanging around the mountains animal defense firearm. Maybe we'll call it Puff. ???
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddsnends2/M500.jpg)
Everything came together nicely, a special sale on a NIB Mossberg 500 12 gauge dual barrel kit (one each 28" and 18.5"), synthetic stock plus pistol grip, from my friendly neighborhood gunsmith Joe, for $280. And I sold a mint condition walnut stock Mossberg 500 12 gauge w/28" barrel and cheap nylon sling for $200. I would have paid that difference for a new 18.5" barrel and still had the wood stock. The new one's all black too.
Of course now I need swivels, a new sling (or maybe a loop type ???) and I want a red dot sight as well. ???
Nice set up! I think that will do the job with out a problem. Now pick up some OO buck and a few slugs to put in the extended mag. If it will chamber the 3 1/2 inch Mag use that load it kicks but also drops them dead!! Mark
The 500's goes to 3 inch. Already threw the mag dowel out (actually tucked it away with the 28" barrel just in case) and have a supply of 00 and rifled slugs. Hopefully we'll go play in the mountains Sunday. Gotta see what the snow's doing anyways.
Quote from: MountainDon on April 18, 2008, 08:15:41 PM
The 500's goes to 3 inch. Already threw the mag dowel out (actually tucked it away with the 28" barrel just in case) and have a supply of 00 and rifled slugs. Hopefully we'll go play in the mountains Sunday. Gotta see what the snow's doing anyways.
Don't worry 3" will do the job. With a full loaded mag the first ones are easy on the sholder but as it gets lighter the last one jerks the eyeballs some in the sockets. I have shot a full box of 20 - 3" mags in a row and it is a blast to say the least! Nice part of the 3" mag Slug it will flip a round of fire wood when it hits it. Mark
I wondered how you split your firewood Mark. Now I know. ;)
[cool] [cool] [cool]
Very nice. Enjoy it and I hope you never need to test its effectiveness on an angry bear.
Bear gave off no reasons for concern before trainer's death
article>
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_re_us/grizzly_attack (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_re_us/grizzly_attack)
Anyone seen the movie Into the Blue? Watch it with the directors commentary. They worked in very close proximity with the sharks. Real sharks not CG or mechanical (as in Jaws). The director wanted to tie fish heads etc to the actors wet suits to get the sharks closer. I've spent a lot of time diving and that seems just NUTS to me.
Quote from: John C on April 23, 2008, 08:22:31 AM
Bear gave off no reasons for concern before trainer's death
article>
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_re_us/grizzly_attack (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_re_us/grizzly_attack)
Anyone seen the movie Into the Blue? Watch it with the directors commentary. They worked in very close proximity with the sharks. Real sharks not CG or mechanical (as in Jaws). The director wanted to tie fish heads etc to the actors wet suits to get the sharks closer. I've spent a lot of time diving and that seems just NUTS to me.
That's the most stupid thing I ever heard of John. I've had 1 close call with sharks and that was enough. I was diving in the York River, right at the mouth of the bay, and 2 Bull sharks came in following a school of Rays. The damn things just kept hanging around. It is the most helpless I've ever felt.
Watched a new series on the Discovery Channel titled "Aventure in Alaska" in which they commented that there had only been 6 people killed in Alaska since the year 2000 from bear attacks. A number of others were mauled but didn't give the ##'s.
Yes, and my info showed that 4 of the 6 that were killed were killed in two separate attacks on couples.
A total of 26 recorded deaths by bear mauling in the US and Canada, Alaska to Tennessee in the years May 2000. But I've not seen a compilation on the number of attacks that resulted in injuries, not death. ??? Not dramatic enough to make the news?
I found that two people, one in AK and one in Canada have been attcked by bears twice and survived.
Two accounts of separate attacks, one fatal, one not.
survivor: (a very engrossing tale)
http://www.biggamehunt.net/sections/Alaska/Bear_Attack_08150112.html
death: http://www.kaniut.com/abtsam.htm
Yet another bear attack in Canada but the victim survived. Aired today. Has anyone considered a stun gun for the up close and personal when everything else failed?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354615,00.html
QuoteHas anyone considered a stun gun for the up close and personal when everything else failed?
That's an interesting idea, but I wouldn't volunteer to be the field tester for the prototype bear stun gun ;D
A stun gun will sting them but just like a human, won't stop a determined attack. I am a great believer in Tasers and carry one more than a firearm in the city....but a bear has an entirely different nervous system.
There is a Taser Red that was made for use on animals but wasn't very successful.
I realize this wouldn't be the choice of weapons of defense but in watching the video of the guy in Canada that was being mauled by the bear I thought it might be nice to have in that situation. If everytime he bit down he was jolted he might soon realize the simularity and leave a little earlier. Apparently he was carring an axe but realized it was too late for any defensive moves and just threw it down. Then playing dead was the only option left. At that point I was wondering about a stun gun.
The new series of the Alaskan Adventure mentioned that the .338 cal was the all around for alaska. Just threw that in.
Would a stun gun trigger the bears eating reflex? [hungry]
Not real sure but touching an electric fence doesn't trigger mine.
I think my rubber decoy was carrying a stun gun ;D
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/bt3.jpg)
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/bt4.jpg)
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/bt5.jpg)
Maybe it is early mating season Peter. We'll see when it done and has no feathers then we will know for sure a "bareturkey".
A friend of mine had put up a 3D archery course on Friday for a weekend shoot. When Saturday morning came around 8 out of the twelve targets fell prey to the bear overnight.
I may put a deer target up next week.
This was funny because everytime he came back, he'd bite that turkey ;D
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/bt9.jpg)
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/bt8.jpg)
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/bt7.jpg)
Peter I have three full body geese decoys along the drive next to the creek. A couple years ago on a full moon night soemthing jumped one of them and left 4 teeth marks in the back. Still not sure what it was. Probably a coyote or bobcat. I can imagine the surprise he got when there was no feathers or blood to taste. What ever it was it hadn't returned for another meal.
Actually they work pretty good as I am always seeing wild geese standing amoung them and along the road.
Been worring about my son's two pigs about 60# now. Probably about the right size for a bear meal. They are fenced with what little good that will do.
And yet another child attacked by bear or mountian lion.
from this link: http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/index.php?smp=&lang=eng (http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/index.php?smp=&lang=eng)
A 5-year-old boy hiking with his family near Sandia Peak has survived an attack from an unidentified species of large animal, a spokesman for the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish said Sunday. Bernalillo County Sheriff Darren White said the family was hiking near the popular Balsam Glade area on the east side of the Sandia Mountains on Saturday evening when the boy ran ahead of his parents. A sheriff's department report identified the boy as Jose Salazar Jr. of Albuqureque. The boy's parents saw the animal emerge from the brush and start dragging away their child, White said. The father then chased the animal, which let go of his son. White said the animal was a mountain lion, but Ross Morgan, a spokesman for Game and Fish, said dogs trained to track mountain lions picked up no scent in the area Saturday night or Sunday. "The dad described it as a short, stocky, dark brown animal," Morgan said. Neither White nor Morgan released the victim's name. The boy suffered puncture wounds to his head, neck and back. He was in serious condition at University of New Mexico Hospital on Saturday, White said. A hospital spokeswoman said Sunday the family declined to make the boy's condition public. Morgan said hikers in the area Sunday were told about the attack, but the news did not deter them from hiking.)
That's near us (suburban home)... well, across the Sandia Mountains. There are signs warning about that being Bear and Cougar Country. If the kid hadn't run ahead MTL the attack would not have happened. The attack has more characteristics of a Cougar attack than a bear. And the boy had more than puncture wounds according to another report; it stated that a large piece of scalp was loose. The boys father ripped his shirt off to bind the wound and hide it from his wife, the boys mother.
One strange thing is that the 'crack' team of dogs and the handler that were brought in found to Cougar scent. The dogs are trained to react to Cougars and nothing else. ??? So maybe it wasn't a Cougar. Hard to say now. In any event, don't let your small kids get ahead or behind you.
'He's eating my brain. I can feel it,' recalls bear attack survivor
Last Updated: Friday, May 16, 2008 | 11:09 PM ET
CBC News
(http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2008/05/16/bc-080516-bear-maul1.jpg)
Saanich resident Brent Case says the bear came from behind him, and started gnawing at the back of his head before tearing away at his scalp. (CBC) Excerpt from below article:
A 53-year-old man managed to drive to safety after a grizzly bear mauled his head and tossed him to the ground in the woods near Bella Coola, about 700 kilometres north of Vancouver.
The attack took place on May 3 when Brent Case was on a surveying job along the rugged Central Coast area.
"He came up from behind me and started gnawing at the back of my head. It just started ripping the scalp off the head," Case, who lives in Saanich, B.C., told CBC News on Friday. continued...
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/05/16/bc-bear-mauls-man.html
Sign to protect tourist from bear attacks
(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/scenes/country%20plans/untitled-8.jpg)
That's a good one. Here is an article about more bear dinners.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/starving-bears-eat-russian-guards/2008/07/24/1216492641726.html
Quote from: glenn kangiser on July 26, 2008, 04:23:01 PM
That's a good one. Here is an article about more bear dinners.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/starving-bears-eat-russian-guards/2008/07/24/1216492641726.html
Wow... what a scary story. Sounds like a made-for-TV drama.
I suspect that this suggestion is a little late, but maybe if they shot the poachers they wouldn't now have to shoot the bears.
In just checked for updates and it looks like they are not going to shoot the bears unless they become a real threat. ??? d*
Was browsing through a magazine in a doc's office and found a small piece on deterring bear attacks. From June 2008 of Camping Life
They said that this data was based on research of 20 years if incidents. Claims that spray halts aggressive bear behavior in 92 percent of cases. Guns were effective in 67 percent.
"According to Smith, those armed with guns had trouble shooting accurately during the grizzly's terrifying charge. His data also showed that it takes an average of four hits to stop a bear."
Findings reported in April issue of Wildlife Society's Journal of Wildlife Management. More info at joomla.wildlife.org, but it appears you have to have a membership to access old issues.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on July 28, 2008, 10:33:58 AM
They said that this data was based on research of 20 years if incidents. Claims that spray halts aggressive bear behavior in 92 percent of cases. Guns were effective in 67 percent.
I read that, or something similar, a while back too. I wish bear spray had a range as good as the 12 Ga. though. And the article doesn't get into calibers and types of guns. A .38 isn't going to faze a bear intent on agression.
Neighbor building a cabin on the other ridge top from me has a pest. 125# black that has so far bit holes in his water jugs, tried to bite in his generator gas tank and unhooked his electric cable to his RV from the generator. I told him the bear is trying to tell him "You are in my spot".
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/10/08/bc-bear-attack-survivor.html
I hope the Chicago Cubs offered that guy a contract.
That was one scary bear story. There was another very similar one a while back. The head bites were almost the same.
I found it. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/05/16/bc-bear-mauls-man.html