Alternative energy, from alternative forces

[Jens]

So I am standing here watching youtube videos on solar arrays, and solar water heaters, and I still can't find any info on making a pv panel from scratch.  It must be possible, I would think. 

Then I got to thinking about other ways to generate electricity. 

1.  I wonder if small hydro turbines could be installed in water lines.  Every time you turn on the water, electricity is generated.  I don't know about you, but in our house, we do a lot of laundry, and dishes.  It would be neat if power could be prodused while doing those things, even if it is a very small amount.

2. wastelines in skyscrapers.  Why couldn't there be turbines in them?

3. skyscrapers with wind turbines not only on the roof, integrated into the architecture, but also integrated along the sides.  The way I picture it, they would be installed within tube-like structures, that have uni-directional inlets, to capture the air currents that occur when wind hits the side of the building and goes up.  Hot air also convects up and over tall buildings, and creates a bit of a current.

4. If you go to the gym, and ride a stationary bike, wouldn't it make more sense to use one that is also a small generator?  I am not a gym goer, but with all of them out there, it could make a difference.  Perhaps it is something that we all should do at home for an hour a day.  Lord knows we would all be healthier for it! 

5.  I know that there are ways to generate electricity with reciprocal action, what about a rocking chair?  If you have two on the porch, and you go sit in them every day and rock away, why not have that hooked up.

I know that none of these would cancel out all of the electricity that we use, but it sure couldn't hurt!

Just a bunch of thoughts, FWIW

[glenn kangiser]

How about parking the work truck on a platform when arriving home at night.  The platform would be hooked to a highly geared generator on one end so a little movement rotated it a lot.  Counter weights would return the platform to the top as the truck is driven off and the generating would go on again as it returned to place.

[MountainDon]

... I still can't find any info on making a pv panel from scratch.  It must be possible, I would think. 

Possible, but not too practical in my book.

Hone up your soldering skills.

[Jens]

How about parking the work truck on a platform when arriving home at night.  The platform would be hooked to a highly geared generator on one end so a little movement rotated it a lot.  Counter weights would return the platform to the top as the truck is driven off and the generating would go on again as it returned to place.

For that matter, install these on every major highway.  I bet the 405 would create a bit of energy at rush hour in LA! 

I have also wondered if solar panels could be made that were like a one way mirror.  They could be installed on the south and west sides of all buildings.  This would be made even easier with the new film PV's that stick on.  I have also imagined a coating, that is made of silicon, that can be sprayed on any surface and would become a producer.  It would have to have (probably) some kind of catalyst to form a molecular reaction to fuse all of the particles together.  I just wonder if it is possible.

Possible, but not too practical in my book.

Hone up your soldering skills.

Yeah, really.  "Thanks for the vote of confidence, friend" (the "" were my attempt at sarcasm in print)

[glenn kangiser]

You can get the pre-made cells to solder together and make your own panel -- space ones at that.  i'll buy mine assembled though.  They are working with the paints and printers.  Some are in limited production.

http://www.partsonsale.com/solarcells.html

[Bill Houghton]

4. If you go to the gym, and ride a stationary bike, wouldn't it make more sense to use one that is also a small generator?  I am not a gym goer, but with all of them out there, it could make a difference.  Perhaps it is something that we all should do at home for an hour a day.  Lord knows we would all be healthier for it! 

20 + years ago I remember reading about a chiropractor that had their only TV hooked to a stationary bike and the only way to watch TV was to pedal.  The kids (one boy, one girl) would help each other out and pedal while the other watched their favorite show.   

Bill in the U.P.

[MountainDon]

Green Microgym in Portland, Ore., Is One of First 'Human-Powered' Facilities in the U.S
There are also some in the UK and Hong Kong; probably other places too.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/SmartHome/Story?id=5754828


"It's a little humbling -- a person can make about a penny's worth of electricity an hour. So it's not a lot," said Michael Tagget, president of Henry Works, adding that on his or her own, an individual can create 50 to 100 watts of electricity.

http://www.henryworks.com/



Price is $1450 FOB El Paso, Texas. The electricity generating Dynamo will be available in March, 2009.

http://www.humandynamo.net/howtobuy.html

[John_C]

So, riding an hour a day, the payback in electric is in about ----- roughly 400 years

A fit cyclist can generate in the neighborhood of 200 watts.  The best pro's , think Lance type, can maintain 400 or so watts for an hour or more.  Top sprinters put out ~ 2000 watts,  but only for a brief duration.

The average folks at the fitness center only generate 50 to 100 watts.  I am guessing this number is the actual electrical output which would also include some conversion losses.

I've been an avid cyclist most of my life. I rode competitively when I was young. These proposals pop up every time there is another energy"crisis" but sadly we just don't put out much energy.  It might make some sense in the fitness center.  Their spin bike are kinda pricey anyway. They have to be built better than what a home user would buy so the added complication might not be a much bigger investment.  There would also be some advertising buzz, being the human powered gym .......   I'm thinking the human powered gym is going to have trouble with air conditioning.

[MountainDon]

 I'm thinking the human powered gym is going to have trouble with air conditioning.

I see similar cost problems with a lot of the other ideas to capture free energy. The mechanical and electrical components cost too much to be of any real use, IMO.

As John stated the bicycle exerciser generator might find a home in an exercise gym. Or someone with deep pockets could buy their own and feel good about it; similar to owning an E85 capable vehicle.

[Pritch]

Hi Jens,

I don't think its feasible to build your own solar cells, but you can build your own panels.  Here is a link I ran across lately of a guy doing just that.  (He also made his own wind generator.) 

http://www.mdpub.com/SolarPanel/index.html

The same issues always seem to crop back up - Either you are expending too much work in order to generate a meager return or you are expending too much cash for the components to ever reach ROI.   

-- Pritch

[JRR]

To sum up the first and second laws of thermodynamics:

"There is no free lunch; ... heck, there isn't even a reasonably priced lunch!"

[lobster]

a practical way to put your kids' excess energy to use...
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2006/07/playpumps_kid_powered_merrygor.html

[MountainDon]

http://www.mdpub.com/SolarPanel/index.html

Two comments FWIW.

1. That guy had lots of patience to do all that soldering and handling of those fragile cells. 

2. I can't help wonder how the plywood support and Plexiglas glazing has stood up over time. PV cells get very hot. In the Southwest, with light or no cooling wind, we typically see modules operating 80–95°F above ambient air temperatures; that means temperatures of over 200 degrees for several hours on a typical summers day.

Maybe I'm too concerned about high temperature degradation of materials. 
That may be because I degrade when exposed to our high outdoor desert temperatures. 
That's why we have the cabin in the 8800 foot mountains. 

[Jens]

I'm not talking about re-inventing the wheel, or trying to get a perpetual energy machine here, just throwing out little thoughts that might be able to make a bit of a difference.  The only real solution, is to just destroy every electricity using practice and technology, along with the information and desire to produce them.

To this day (from what I've heard), not a single alternative energy producer has been developed or manufactured without the use of fossil fuel power plants. 

I think that a lot of small generators could be put in a lot of places we have never thought of before though, and could make a bit of impact.  For example, a hydro turbine is basically an impeller, spinning on a couple of bearings, in a case, that turns a generator.  A generator is simply a magnetic field, revolving around or within a copper coil, correct?

A 200A alternator for a car can be modified for maximum output, without shutting down, if run at 3500 RPM.  Seems to me, like that connected via belt to an exercise bike should do the trick too.  Remember, some people sell small cabins for half a million dollars too, not just overpriced bikes out there.

Maybe I'll just put it on the list of things to try out.  I can rig it up to be a TIG welder, and just get my son to ride it.

I heard somewhere, about small generators that they sell for sailboats.  When you set them in the water, the natural oscillation of the ocean produces some electricity to power small things.  I don't know how small, but I think it was like basic low voltage lighting or something.

[John_C]

So Jens where are you going to find the cyclist who can generate 2400 watts (200A x 12V) for any length of time? 

There are a handful of sprinters in the world who can produce that kind of power for 10 - 12 seconds (eg. Scottish World champion and Olympic triple gold medalist Chris Hoy for one) . 

The average person is doing well to break 100 watts. A dedicated cyclist 150 - 200 watts.  Hooking them up to a 200A alternator isn't going to increase their output.

I built a variety of chargers that were to be dragged behind sailboats when at sea.  They were usually fairly low output but they operated whenever there was enough wind to sail.  During calm periods most folks were motoring.

To this day (from what I've heard), not a single alternative energy producer has been developed or manufactured without the use of fossil fuel power plants. 

Either I don't understand the statement or you are misinformed.  Iceland for example has harnessed their abundant geothermal energy for many uses.  If you mean nothing has been done start to finish without the use of fossil fuels that might be true.  If someone used steel from a conventional foundry (powered by fossil fuels) to build a waterwheel hydro rig, would that compromise the validity of the project?

[devildog]

testing

[MountainDon]

The only real solution, is to just destroy every electricity using practice and technology, along with the information and desire to produce them.

I guess you are kidding around. 

The average person is doing well to break 100 watts.

From what I've found 100 watts would be very good. 75 watts may be more like it for a sustained period of time. Of course the more one would do this, over time they would likely be able to increase their output.

So I will agree that a dedicated person, with time available to spend several hours on a bike in the basement or wherever, could put a little bit of power into a battery bank. But there's one of the problems I see. The battery bank. Most folks don't want to mess with batteries. Batteries are expensive and if the owner screws up, forgets about maintenance, or runs their level of charge down too far, they've just thrown more money out the window than they will ever recoup from pedaling up a few hundred watts every day. Lithium Ion or Nickel Metal Hydride batteries would not require maintenance, but they cost even more than lead-acid.

When I look at providing alternate energy my mind thinks, "will this work for my wife, or my sister, or my non technical neighbor."

[Jens]

I may be missing the point of what you guys are trying to say about producing the watts, but then I don't really understand the relationship between watts and amps anyway.  Don't know if I really want to know either!  Just having thoughts here, but then I am used to having my thoughts immediately shot down!  I guess sometimes, if you think of something, its already been thought of.

Yes Don, I am kidding, but serious at the same time.  The only way to truly green electricity, is to neither require, nor need it.  In many ways, I think we would be much better off as humans, as would the environment, if we just did away with our techno umbilical cord.  Most don't agree with me, I know.  I am a bit crazy.

[John_C]

From what I've found 100 watts would be very good. 75 watts may be more like it for a sustained period of time. Of course the more one would do this, over time they would likely be able to increase their output.

You might be right on that.  I have a lot of information on power output of recreational cyclists, local-club racers and elite racers.  All semi to extremely dedicated cyclists, and virtually none on what the casual person would do while getting a bit of exercise.

One of the major training advances in the last few years has been the development of power meters built into the cranks.  Some provide a printout so output can be graphed for an entire training session.  They can also tell if power output is evenly distributed or if a rider is favoring one leg. Lance Armstrong was one of the pioneers in the use of power monitors during his comeback from cancer surgery.  While he was training in Europe he would send his daily power output records via email to his coach, Chris Carmichael, in the U.S. 

More recently some of the Tour de France competitors have been wired up during the race and their power curves posted daily on cycling web sites.

It an expensive technology but as costs have come down it has become available to the general, if well heeled, public.  I wasn't trying to be too specific, mostly to point out that there just isn't a lot of power there to be harvested. 

Also the drag behind rotors for generating power while under sail were only a modest success.  They often fouled with seaweed and the vibrations were just right for generating shark hits.  Everyone I knew abandoned them for solar panels.

[MountainDon]

I may be missing the point of what you guys are trying to say about producing the watts, but then I don't really understand the relationship between watts and amps anyway.  Don't know if I really want to know either! 

Jens, you must have a little understanding of watts in order to conceive of methods to generate the power.

Basically,  volts x amps = watts.  If you know any two of those the third can be determined.

You have a small TV that's rated at 75 watts. Pedaling a bike generator producing power at a rate of 75 watts would power that TV. That's disregarding any power losses in the wires.

But you couldn't pedal at a consistent enough speed to power the TV directly. You'd have to pedal the bike to charge a battery. Doing that will incur losses. Once the power is in the battery you draw that DC power through an inverter to make AC. That's going to lose 5 -20%.

Batteries being as inefficient as they are, won't give all the power back to you either; you might lose 20% or more.

So at those 75 watt rates you might have to pedal the generator for 1.5 to 2 hours to watch one hour worth of TV.

I don't know if that helps or confuses the issue .


That's way cool technology John. 

[John_C]

I may be missing the point of what you guys are trying to say about producing the watts, but then I don't really understand the relationship between watts and amps anyway.  Don't know if I really want to know either!  Just having thoughts here, but then I am used to having my thoughts immediately shot down!

Not really trying to shoot you down but to point out that the human engine is a fairly low powered one.  I can't take the motor on a chainsaw and power a drag race or a bull dozer with it. 

IF you wanted to harvest the power of a stationary bike you'd probably want to start off with a generator that was optimized for about 100 watts and peaked at maybe 500 or so. You'd want it's internal friction and power losses to be as small as possible because there isn't much there to stsrt out with.  In the end you'd still have to come to grips with the short duration of power output.  How long are you going to sit there and pedal?  1 hr @ 100 watts?  2 hrs. @ 80 watts?  4 hrs. @ 75 watts?

[devildog]

scandarrell0001.jpg wanted to see if this works

[MountainDon]

devildog, you need to have that image hosted someplace like photobucket.com. Copying an image file name and pasting doesn't do it.

There's a tutorial under Forum News.

Or, the short quick answer; get a photobucket account, upload the image to there, copy the IMG tag under the photobucket thumbnail and paste that into the message.

G/L   

[John_C]

their web site   http://www.srm.de/usa/index.html

[MountainDon]

Darrell and Cindy (devildog) was having trouble getting an image upload to work. Here's his email to me and following that his sketch...

My wife and I tried for about an hour to make this reply,and couldnt make it work. the pic wont show.

anyway jens ideas sparked my memory about something I had drawn up. Basically, you have apump, maybe 1hp to  fill a 500g water tank, up the hill, from a creek on our property(it doesnt have enough fall), and of course add ashut off for when the tank is full. then reduce the pipe for pressure to go back down to the creek and  turn some hydro(maybe 2kw or something that would power the entire cabin, and also having the gutter rainwater filling the water tank. Of course you could still have some solar panels and a battery bank. the only electric you would be paying for is the cycling of the pump. Im not sure how often the pump would cycle, but I want to believe it would be alot less cost than running the entire cabin on the grid.
I was curious to know if the people on this forum thought this idea would work .


I was hoping maybe you could post this for me, this is one of my favorite subjects
                                                                       thanks, darrell