My Downsizing Project

[wildbil]

Thank you all for these good ideas I must be sure about before undertaking my project.

I may have to find a way to work in the shadows because a septic tank not only rips up a huge space around your home, it costs big bucks. If i did find a shack on some land I might scoop it up, build my new setup and use the old shack for some fire wood. not a bad idea. I am wondering if I could act as its my "vacation" home and have something like a simple tank that needs pumping, then after it passes do things my way.

As for the stove! creative1, I think that is a great idea, multi use so I can choose the fuel as the prices flux


My personal opinion is if I buy land I should be able to build a pyramid on it as long as its not hurting or bothering the neighbors. and if it falls and kills me then its my own fault. I really dont like the idea of papa build inspector deciding how ill be living. might as well have the same exact home for everyone.

[CREATIVE1]

In total agreement.  I've been looking into invisibility formulas, but am not there yet.

[apaknad]

hi again WB,

don't know about pellet stoves but if the shipments stopped to your local store what would you burn? guard rails/fences can be put around wood stove til child understands. wood will always be available in MI. do you fish?  i used to fish at fletcher's floodwater. nice area Alpena. did they shut down dow chemical there?
good place to buy land w/people unloading everything they can in this economy.

[MountainDon]

My personal opinion is if I buy land I should be able to build a pyramid on it as long as its not hurting or bothering the neighbors. and if it falls and kills me then its my own fault.

I do agree with that in many ways, even though some of the things I say may make some wonder at times. I feel that way all the more so in cases of land that is more rural, land that consists of larger acreage than that found in a built up area. Some areas are like that. Others treat the entire county with the same set of rules no matter if you are in the city or on a mountain ridge surrounded by trees that no one can see through. Our suburban home location is another matter in some respects. The conveniences to conveniences like stores, medical facilities, schools, entertainment and the like do bring some responsibilities with having to conform. That works two ways; we can't have pigs in the backyard, but neither can the neighbors.

In our case there is no land near enough where we work and maintain our principle residence that does not come with all sorts of rules. All the surrounding counties have restrictive building codes; incorporated areas have even more. That includes the mountainous portions where we do own land. Our mountain land is off the beaten track. There is no drive by traffic. No one can see us from any public area. I do wonder what the satellites will see, but so far none have updated out lat&long coordinates. We have found peace there and deal with the authorities in our own manner.

I am wondering if I could act as its my "vacation" home and have something like a simple tank that needs pumping, then after it passes do things my way.

 A pump out tank, a cesspool by it's old name, is usually not allowed by local ordinances. Again this has to be checked out before purchase. I know, it seems to get ridiculous. Example; my county would allow building on your own land without getting a well. But they require a septic system or in more rural areas an outhouse. In our case the septic requirement strikes me as being ludicrous as I would never be hauling enough water to ever get it full. IIRC the minimum installed size for us would be 900 gallons.   In two years of hauling water I might be getting close to that volume,    but we've drank a lot of it and used a bunch for personal hygiene. Personal hygiene falls into the gray water category as a rule. There would still be precious little water in the septic tank if there was one.

The more visible your place is the more the need to tow the bureaucratic line, IMO.

[cordwood]

 Well my wife and I are building a new small house only 100' from the house we thought we were going to live in for quite some time,.........No permits= No Good House ,....We thought we were buying a cheap house on 10 acres,  We ended up with 10 acres and a temporary structure at fair market value!
What was said to be a leaky roof turned out to be some fancy drywall work to hide the fact they took out a load bearing wall and the whole structure is unsound  , Some support beams and a few experimental remodel ideas and it is safe for awhile but definetly NOT what we were sold in the begining.
So now when someone complains about getting permits I can see the other side and it ain't pretty
I wont go into what they meant "could use a new septic system" I don't call a pipe that terminated under sheet metel covered trench an "Old Septic System"

[MountainDon]

I hate hearing about things like that, cordwood. Really sad when you are on the receiving end.

It's stuff like that that probably was one of the forces behind building codes, etc. being implemented. Unfortunately, having followed the progression of rules and regs here in NM for 25 years, I also believe that some of the rules have been introduced to preserve the bureaucrat jobs. Some maybe have been introduced under pressure, gifts, contributions to election funds, etc. by various providers of materials and services. I'm not talking just zoning and construction. The greedy fingers of government plus industry lobbyists cost us all untold dollars every time we turn around.



The governing body that overseas the regulations pertaining to our preschool try my patience and civility yearly. They seem to be constantly tweaking the rules, making "improvements". But I digress. 

[wildbil]

Well my wife and I are building a new small house only 100' from the house we thought we were going to live in for quite some time,.........No permits= No Good House ,....We thought we were buying a cheap house on 10 acres,  We ended up with 10 acres and a temporary structure at fair market value!
What was said to be a leaky roof turned out to be some fancy drywall work to hide the fact they took out a load bearing wall and the whole structure is unsound  , Some support beams and a few experimental remodel ideas and it is safe for awhile but definetly NOT what we were sold in the begining.
So now when someone complains about getting permits I can see the other side and it ain't pretty
I wont go into what they meant "could use a new septic system" I don't call a pipe that terminated under sheet metel covered trench an "Old Septic System"

I understand that most of the regulations are there to protect future buyers and the environment. And I would have no complaints having an open discussion and finding safe ways to do everything that me and the building inspector can agree on. however i cannot see a building inspector ever seeing things my way being that most have a know-whats-best complex and me being an ordinary person. I will go with having proper structural and electrical inspections for safety. And whatever work I do on my own accord will be well researched and well thought through to maintain safety for both me and my planet. I also plan to live out the rest of my life there, so I dont care about resale value.

I'm sorry about your experiences, of course those bad apples ruin it for the rest of us.

[cordwood]

 This ain't my first stupid move we lost a deposit on a house in the desert after we found out the house had no permits and San Bernardino County was adamant that it be torn down, We backed out of the deal but couldn't get the deposit back because he never told us it "DID" have permits
The new house we build will not be required to be permitted but at least I know when I do it it will be safe.
Personally I don't really care if it's permitted or not cause I've seen inspectors that were dumb as a post or corrupt as the senate, What pi$$es me off is when someone knows there is a problem and lies about it and hides it!
Now California can kiss my *$$ on main street!! $800 for a permit to reshingle an 800 sqft dink house in the desert plus a $200 fine for not getting a permit before work began And the worst part was the next door neighbor turned me in I would have thought he would be happy we were fixing the place up and cleaning up an eyesore,....WRONG! He said it would make his house worth more and raise his taxes So wildbil; Look real good at your potential neighbors,.......If you can see'em don't buy the place

[wildbil]

good point cordwood. Ill be sure theres an acre of trees around me in each direction at least. I really cant stand that in the city, the value of a home across the street affects your home. I grew up in the country without neighbors, then made the stupid mistake of buying my first home in town.

Funny thing though today my parents came to visit us and they started talking about my ideas. It actually spurred a mocking and laughter session among them and my older siblings. I am more determined than ever now.

[MountainDon]

You may be very correct in thinking that most, if not all, building inspectors would ever see eye to eye with any number of innovative but safe building practices. And then again maybe they would. One of the big things inspectors don't like are changes to the plan after the plan has been approved, especially changes that may affect the structural strength, or some thing silly even.

I will go with having proper structural and electrical inspections for safety.

I don't mean to be a naysayer... but if you are in a code compliance area and if you are starting a build from scratch home, in my locale at least, you either go with the whole ball of wax or you don't. There's no middle ground where you can ask them to inspect the electrical, "but don't worry about the plumbing". If the building is not there at present and you want to build one. As Creative pointed out you may very well be able to get away with remodeling, even extensive remodeling as long as the exterior size doesn't change. That if someone is looking.

I am just trying to get you to see what you might right into. And you might not run into any of these walls. I hope you understand that as I seem to be raising negatives, more than praising your initiative and desire to have your own place your way. There are National codes for this, that and the other thing. But local municipalities or counties have the final say as to what gets built and how on their turf. Depending on where you are these rules may be relatively few and innocuous, or they may be a deal breaker if you envision an outside the box dwelling. 

G/L and I'm interested in seeing your ideas come to fruition. 

[MountainDon]

$800 for a permit to reshingle an 800 sqft dink house in the desert plus a $200 fine for not getting a permit before work began

That sucks cordwood. Ouch! No permit required here for that, it's a simple repair. When you get inside the walls replumbing the entire house like we did there was a permit. I think it was $45 on a $4500 job.

[cordwood]

$800 for a permit to reshingle an 800 sqft dink house in the desert plus a $200 fine for not getting a permit before work began

That sucks cordwood. Ouch! No permit required here for that, it's a simple repair. When you get inside the walls replumbing the entire house like we did there was a permit. I think it was $45 on a $4500 job.

I didn't think it should require a permit either,....I think that's when the price went up His exact words were "It matters not what YOU THINK, It only matters what I THINK!" Then he wanted to use my ladder to go up and look at the roof ......I told him to go straight to #$!! and bring back his own d@mn ladder I think the more I talked the less chance there was of him just letting me slide this one time. Oh Well I know how to play the game I guess I just didn't feel like doing it that time

[MountainDon]

If you were willing to dig that hole deeper than it already was you should have offered to rent him the ladder for 25 cents to go UP. Then removed it and told him it would it was $25 to come down. 

I'd never do that myself, but I don't mind sharing the scary thoughts I can conjure up at times.

[Jens]

California building sucks.  Sounds like a good plan there wild one, my wife and I (late twenties, 4 kids) have been working on the same plan for about 10 years now, getting closer all the time.  Kids will learn not to go near that hot stove after the first few burns.  You're supposed to have more than one to count for natural selection anyway

[glenn kangiser]

Right Jens -- you don't want to get too attached to them.  You may have to take one of them out some day.

[wildbil]

I guess the only real way to be sure about the codes is to get the local structural, electrical, and plumbing code myself. Also I could make up the plan exactly as I want it and take it to the inspector and just try to reason.

If you had an unpermitted home what do you do about your address? kids school district? insurance? you see there are too many things tied into your house to live totally unpermitted unless we completely shun society(which isnt my plan). So maybe ill read up on the current codes, see if I can find any loopholes in there to use and make sure I can have an answer for any argument the inspector has against my plans.

MountainDon...I enjoy your thoughts, thats why I asked for constructive criticism.

The big thing is the septic system for me, Its the largest expense that Im getting rid of and I wont need it with the composter.

thank you all.

[MountainDon]

I guess the only real way to be sure about the codes is to get the local structural, electrical, and plumbing code myself.

Check with the building/zoning/development dept that covers the area you're interested in and ask what codes they use. UBC, IRC...

Visit the public library. They usually have those books in the reference only section.

The IRC2003 is available online. There's a link to it from HERE.  It is Seattle specific but the entire code is there.

[MountainDon]

Other than not wanting to install a septic tank what innovative or off-beast ideas are you considering, wildbil?

[Mike 870]

You should google up the county (or responsible government entity)  where you are thinking about living and just start asking them questions.  Everytime I've done that people have been very helpful.  I don't give them my full name so if I decide to bend a rule here and there, no big deal.  One guy even laughed at me when I asked if there was a fee to apply for an address  "Nope, no fee, we're the last free stop".

Some things to consider

Septic requirements
Well depths in area (in my state you can look this up online)
soil drainage, soil makeup and depth of bedrock
which inspections are required?  If required, what version of code
do local townships have requirements over and above the county
flood plain?
easements
leans
right of ways (ingress, egress)
(good idea to do or hire a title search)
has the land been surveyed off yet?
walk the property line
since you have kids, where is the closest bus pickup


On the wood stove v pellets, I'd also go with a woodstove.  you can increase the saftey by regularly cleaning your flue and by having it vent up instead of out a sidewall.  This way it burns hotter (less creosote).   

FYI, here is Gene Lodgeson on burning wood.  (He is one of my favorite writers) http://organictobe.org/index.php/2008/11/18/stoking-up-the-woodstove-winters-first-ritual/

[Bishopknight]

Glad to hear someone younger than me has figured it out. I wish you the best of luck with everything!

[wildbil]

Other than not wanting to install a septic tank what innovative or off-beast ideas are you considering, wildbil?

the compost toilet, pier foundation, wood or pellet stove as primary heat, rain catchment system, minimal electrical use so that when we can afford a decent solar system, it wont be a big deal(eventually completely offgrid or at least sending power back to the power company), year around green house built off the side of the house, and a home free of easy mind numbing entertainment.

To most people reading these forums, these ideas arent new or breaking edge. But if you told this to the average consumer champion, debt loving, media worshiping citizen of this country you'd having them scratching their heads...what no constant sports scores and political scandals? I cant flush and forget? I'm responsible for keeping myself warm?

Now I dont begrudge people living the normal lifestyle of today. I do think that people should be aware that they are totally dependant on a system to survive. Systems can collapse or even worse be taken over by a few select individuals. If someone controls how much food you get, your going to have to jump when they tell you.

If you look back to only my grandparents youll see happy backwoods country folk who could have passed for amish. somehow they lived full lives and built nice buildings that are still solid today and stayed healthy(grandma died at 98). now two generations later, we cant even seem to wash our clothes or bath if the power goes out

and thankyou don for the link to the link

[MountainDon]

Thanks and you are welcome. 

Regarding your list, some are relatively easy and can be achieved just about anywhere by anyone. Minimum electrical use and mind numbing entertainment fall into that category. The others will sometimes be problems depending on the area you select to build and live in. The below comments are not meant to endorse or reject building codes or personal ideas; rather it is simply pointing out some of what you might run into, according to what I've seen or researched.

Pier foundation: No problems in some areas, discouraged or even prohibited in others.

Compost toilet: not so much a problem with them per se, although there are areas that might not allow them, especially if you have one that has a liquid overflow. It's more of a septic/blackwater/graywater thing as previously discussed.

Wood stove as primary heat source: There is nothing to stop anyone from using a wood or pellet stove their primary source of heat. However, many areas will not officially count a wood stove as being the primary heat source. Electric, natural gas, propane or even fuel oil are what most codes call for as necessary if they address the question of heating. Add to that your insurance. Not having a typical heating source may mean they won't issue a policy at all. Some may issue a policy, but not cover any frost or freezing related problems. Sometimes one just has to shop around. You can do that with insurance companies eaier than building departments.

rain catchment: This one ought to be a no brainer, right? Rain or snow that falls on my roof is mine to collect and use, right? Depends where you are located. I'm only familiar with the state of affairs surrounding rainwater in Colorado. There, because of complicated western water rights, rainfall is linked to those water rights and what's known as the prior appropriation doctrine. Prior appropriations of stream and river water can be interpreted as, rainwater prevented from running freely downstream may not be available to its rightful owner. The rightful owner may be one or more states downstream. All water in Colorado has been apportioned since the late 1800's.

sending power back to the power company: Some power companies are fair and generous and allow, even promote, self generation and buy excess power back from the home owner with PV panels. That's a great deal, you buy from them in time of need (night) and then sell back during the day. With enough capacity you could be in the situation where you get a monthly check rather than a bill. Others will only give you credit against future bills. You'll never see a peso of their money.

a green house: Something more major than a place to start a few tomato plants is what I envision... I have not explored these, but I know of two complete failures around here. A friend up in the mountains is building what I expect to be a third. Failures because of the trouble maintaining a viable temperature without the heating and cooling costs being prohibitive.  It must be possible to build a viable multi season greenhouse; that's just out of my area of interest at present.

[Redoverfarm]

Thanks and you are welcome. 



a green house: Something more major than a place to start a few tomato plants is what I envision... I have not explored these, but I know of two complete failures around here. A friend up in the mountains is building what I expect to be a third. Failures because of the trouble maintaining a viable temperature without the heating and cooling costs being prohibitive.  It must be possible to build a viable multi season greenhouse; that's just out of my area of interest at present.

I saw an interesting article in the Farm Show magazine to where a Greenhouse was heated with a compost pile.  The benefit was two fold in this application.

[MountainDon]

   I'd need a BIG compost pile in my mountains. 

[wildbil]

here is a serious question...If I were to build completely offgrid and unpermitted on my own private area...what would you do for an address or signing up for school for kids? You most likely wouldnt be insured if your house isn't permitted.

Is there anyone living without permits? I need to know what to expect.

The one suggestion I recieved a few days ago was to build a permitted garage or pole barn with electric to it and then build my house and hook up the electric from there that way I could have an address for the garage and power. What do you guys think?

There are ultimately three things stopping me I figure from living completely off grid...the small water heater(my wife has this as an ultimatum)and the refridgerator, If I can come up with reasonable alternatives to those I'd have no problem with off grid. Also if I can be sure that with a woodstove my house won't freeze while Im at work I'd be good with just that.(maybe a way to drain lines if I leave for a while)