My Downsizing Project

[wildbil]

Hello everyone,

I am about to begin a major overhaul of my family's ways of living. I am almost certain that I'll be purchasing the house plans for the 14x 24 cabin. I would like to introduce myself, my plans, and my reasoning to you all; so that you can constructively criticize my ideas and maybe help me realize anything I have overlooked. Thank you all in advance.

About me: I am a 23 year old guy from Northern Michigan. I have a great wife, a beautiful 8 month old daughter, and a tiny dog. We eventually plan on having one more kid and then get fixed . I have some limited experience building, but have several friends from all building trades to help me. My wife is a nurse and I'm an orderly so we on a bit of a tight budget to start. we currently live in a 1000sqft ranch in the city. We find it more room than we need and living with neighbors so close on each side kind of drives me insane. My wife is all for the plan and only requests that it is "cozy" and not like my Dad's current deer camp(rustic).

My Plan: Purchase a few wooded acres(2-5) and put up the 14x24 home with roof extending over the front porch(along the 24' side of the building). Build the loft over the entire floor plan if possible and convert into two bedrooms. It would use a concrete pier foundation and metal roofing. We'd sleep in one upstairs bedroom and the girl would have the other. The house would use a pellet/corn stove, compost toilet(no septic, just a grey water system), compact kitchen, hand clothes washer, 10 gallon water heater; all to save on energry and space. This would be the start of our overall plan. eventually we want a green house to grow our own food and maybe a own few animals. this would help us be more self sufficient(I realize its impossible to be totally self sufficient). this would get us out of the city and would help us get to our ultimate debt free lifestyle. After a year or two the house would be added on to with maybe a bedroom, or maybe not(depends how comfortable we are). 

My Reasoning: Not only would we be financially better off, allowing us to focus on collecting experiences(travel)and maybe work a little less, we could in short time be pretty much debt free. I know this home will only cost a fraction of my current home because I'm cutting out the inflated contractor and realtor fees. Also my intention is not removing us completely from the community, just teaching us to do a little more for ourselves and allowing us to grow into a closer family. I'm willing to do a little more work instead of having a machine do everything automatically for me. I believe this would be easier to start while my daughter is really young because if I wait until shes older she may go into shock. My parents think I'm plum crazy and that I should actually be looking for a bigger house. If anyone knows michigan you'd know that economic hardships seems to hit us pretty bad and I'd rather give up what I dont need or waste and stay in my home state comfortably. I am just waiting on the right peice of land to show up. I read somewhere: "whose richer, the man with a big house or the man with the big heart?"

so there it is....Thank you.

Wildbil

[glenn kangiser]

  wildbil.  Sounds like a good plan.  Andrew  (Ernest T Bass) and family are in U.P. ( why doesn't anybody ever come from Dowagiag? Now Dowagiac I think) hmm  and doing well on being pretty self sufficient.

I am rustic but others here are modern --stand by for comments.

[Whitlock]

Go for it Wildbil 

[Curtis]

Hey there, we're in the same situation with the same general mindset.

I'm twenty, and I plan on building an underground home (check link in signature) for basically some of the same reasons. Financial stability, debt free living, and surplus of savings.

Good luck and keep us updated.

[cordwood]

wildbil.  Sounds like a good plan.  Andrew  (Ernest T Bass) and family are in U.P. ( why doesn't anybody ever come from Dowagiag? Now Dowagiac I think) hmm  and doing well on being pretty self sufficient.

I am rustic but others here are modern --stand by for comments.

You could put a link to pics. so he could see what you call "rustic"
Oh and also, What did you use on the cob circular seating area (by the cat) to make it look shiny & smooth?

[Redoverfarm]

wildbil  as others  .  Sounds like a good plan I hope it materializes for you.  I am sure it will be a learning experience for you and your family.  Good Luck and keep everyone posted on your progress.

[ScottA]

Good to see more folks seeing the light. I wish you luck.

[considerations]

You came to the right place - I found in this forum a treasure trove of the practical aspects of self-reliance. 

[MelH]

Good for you.  I wish we would have started this path sooner - you've got a 20 year head start on me.  Like you said - it's to late now, gotta wait until the two teenage daughters are out of high school to downsize, or they will go into cardiac arrest! lol!

[glenn kangiser]

wildbil.  Sounds like a good plan.  Andrew  (Ernest T Bass) and family are in U.P. ( why doesn't anybody ever come from Dowagiag? Now Dowagiac I think) hmm  and doing well on being pretty self sufficient.

I am rustic but others here are modern --stand by for comments.

You could put a link to pics. so he could see what you call "rustic"
Oh and also, What did you use on the cob circular seating area (by the cat) to make it look shiny & smooth?

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

I have been lazy lately --- working and rushing through the forum.

The smooth shiny areas are slicked off with a smooth grout float when wet mud and allowed to dry.  They are then coated with Quikcrete "Concrete Cure and Seal" or other acrylic floor sealer.  That makes a light earth color.  The dark floor is water proofed with 4 coats of boiled linseed oil then coated with the sealer.

[apaknad]

hi bil,

dan here from lower mi., jackson area. your initial ideas are fine and you will alter them as you think about priorities. i'd forego the corn/pellet stove for a wood burner. plenty of trees in the u.p. i'd shoot for five acres if you can. land is somewhat of a bargain in your general area. you might want to order the cd's/dvd's from mother earth news to look at w/wife. many good ideas from their library and costs around $60 i think. we're in winter now and it will give you plenty of time to read.

[wildbil]

Hello everyone,

Thank you for such an active greeting and support!

i'd forego the corn/pellet stove for a wood burner. plenty of trees in the u.p.

I should be more specific: I'm actually from the Alpena area in northeastern lower michigan, but we consider anything below Standish "southern" and everything above "northern."

As for the pellet stove:1. pellets are easier to store than wood and seem to be in decent stock around the area even now while its cold. 2. pellet stoves are less of a fire danger, and I'd sleep better in the loft knowing theres nothing brewing under me. 3. wood stoves can burn small children just learning to walk badly, from what I have read pellet/corn stoves are only warm to the touch. please correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

I appreciate the thought though Dan , and I would love 5 acres but I dont think a lot of people in the area are going to be selling until after hunting season. I am going to check out the mother earth news now.

thank you all,

Wildbil

[CREATIVE1]

In this case, thinking small is really thinking big. 

We bought our first house at 24, a weird but charming CHEAP z-shaped (I kid you not) but not very sound building.  We were going to remodel after several years, but when we opened it up, there were so many problems we started over.  (We only owed a mortgage for about five years).  Intend to keep it up thirty five years later with our Victoria's cottage from countryplans.

Everyone thought we were just about wealthy with all the fabulous (camping) trips and nice secondhand cars bought for cash for a song with the money we saved.  But we cut costs in every other way --- coupons, barter, flea markets, buying used, fixing everything ourselves, etc.  Our first trip out west in the 1970's (from Florida) cost $300 for an entire month, and the VW van we did it in cost $300 too but looked fine with homesewn indian basket curtains and homemade camper interior. 

Welcome to the anti-McMansion club!  It's not exclusive, just requiring common sense.

[MountainDon]

  wildbil,

G/L on finding the land you want. It's a cool feeling once you've found it and have it in your name. While looking check up on the local ordinances, what you can do and what you can not. You mentioned composting toilet and a graywater system. Water from a kitchen sink is looked at as being black, not gray in many places.

I personally would not want a corn or pellet fed stove if I had my own wood or access to forest service wood. My reason for that is the corn/pellet route ties you to a supply system, much like the gas company or the propane truck. The one advantage I see to corn/pellet is that the hopper allows you to be away for a period of time and have the heat continue, as long as there is power.

We placed a heavy screened fence around our wood stove (hardware cloth over an aluminum frame. Never burned anyone. We never set the place on fire either. If you follow all the recommended clearances, etc, you should not have an unwanted fire outside the stove.

As far a pellets being plentiful or priced reasonably... remember when gas was $4 a gallon or back in the 70's when there were line ups? Well, probably not the lines; but I do. Last winter around here there was a pellet shortage for a period. 

[CREATIVE1]

If memory serves, some stoves are multi-fuel, and will burn pellets and also wood.  I'd go that way if possible.

[MountainDon]

If memory serves, some stoves are multi-fuel, and will burn pellets and also wood.  I'd go that way if possible.

That would be interesting.    The technologies are so different I wonder how that would work. Options are always nice.

[wildbil]

If you have a wood stove what happens when you leave for a while? Im worried about the few water lines that will be in the house. some times I go to work and noone is at the house for 15 or 16 hours at a time. does anyone have  good backup system? I know code requires that wood isnt the primary heat source around here.

one good thing is that the house will be small enough that I will only need a small stove and that means less wood/pellets/corn, whatever we decide. we have a wood stove at our camp and it overheats us and then cools quickly, but im sure no matter what heat I use insulation will ultimately be the most important factor.

about the blackwater sink...isnt that water leached anyways in a septic system? the system I was thinking of was a simple drain going away from the house and into a leach pit. the system wont have to contend with poo so itll be mostly water and a few chemicals im sure.

as for the compost toilet. does anyone uses the Humanure method? I am willing to try it but I dont want to push my wife cause shes right along with me on everything else. right now were planning on one of the all in one systems like sun mar but i havent decided what brand to go with just yet.

also about the pier structure; I trust that the building will be stable as long as the clay content is low, but what about weather? it block crawl anymore safe? does anyone have reasons I shouldnt go with a pier foundation?

Thankyou,

Wildbil

[CREATIVE1]

If memory serves, some stoves are multi-fuel, and will burn pellets and also wood.  I'd go that way if possible.

That would be interesting.    The technologies are so different I wonder how that would work. Options are always nice.

A link to the stoves I was talking about

http://www.stoveworksusa.com/

[MountainDon]

Thanks for the stove link CREATIVE1. They must has that niche market all to themselves.

[CREATIVE1]

also about the pier structure; I trust that the building will be stable as long as the clay content is low, but what about weather? it block crawl anymore safe? does anyone have reasons I shouldnt go with a pier foundation?

We weren't allowed to build a pier foundation in Washington.  Don't know if it has to do with earthquakes or what.  Anyone have a bag of money they don't need?  That one change alone is $$$$.

Most jurisdictions want your septic system to be the same whether you use standard or composting toilets.  You'll obviously save money on pumping out the tank, but no savings otherwise.

I've seen some great deals on composting toilets on Craig's List, if you can get around the "used" part.

[MountainDon]

Re the graywater / blackwater thing wildbil. Collecting the water from the bathroom and kitchen sinks and shower/bathtub and running it to a leaching system will in all likelyhood work with no problems. But such a system, one that includes the kitchen sink, is not legal in my state of NM, nor many others. This is mainly a bureaucratic shortcoming IMO.

We have a Sun-Mar toilet. It works fine and is more wife friendly than any other home brewed composting system, depending on what model wife one has. This was stumbling block I ran into as well. Even an old fashioned outhouse works well when the neighborhood just consists of your family. But those are also illegal in some places. My point regarding the kitchen sink was to make you aware of a potential problem, depending on where your finally locate the land you want. Before signing on the dotted line check on all the hoops you might have to jump though, if you choose to do so. Not jumping through all the hoops is sometimes done sucessfully as well.   That's a personal choice.

[MountainDon]

As for a pier foundation, as Creative pointed out sometimes that is simply another jurisdictional hoop to jump through. In an earthquake prone area they might not be a good choice. Although as PEG has commented once or more, all the extra rules, straps, etc that are required in WA state may just allow the buildings to fall down a little less, but they remain structural unsafe.    

I have no problem with a pier foundation. We built one. We were blessed with well drained soil and being at the top of a ridge. With the footings below the frost line it should be fine.

Clay is another matter and I have no experience with it myself. It can be done though.

.. another detail to be checked on before purchase? 

[CREATIVE1]

Another thought is to buy something shabby but not falling down to get around some of the bureaucracy. After our latest saga (Victoria Cottage at Lake Cushman) we might've gone a different way if we'd known.

With so many foreclosures, you might be able to find property with a house for about what land costs.  And if in a rural area (lots of places qualify) a USDA loan provides 102% financing and allows the seller to contribute 6 percent of the purchase price towards closing costs.

[MountainDon]

Another thought is to buy something shabby but not falling down to get around some of the bureaucracy.

One might have luck with that, but the way the rules are written, more often than not, there's a Catch-22 in there. With a remodel or change above or past a certain preordained point, or to some systems, "they" require permits anyhow. Unless you work in the shadows.

Pardon me, my pessimistic side is showing this morning. 

[CREATIVE1]

Another thought is to buy something shabby but not falling down to get around some of the bureaucracy.

One might have luck with that, but the way the rules are written, more often than not, there's a Catch-22 in there. With a remodel or change above or past a certain preordained point, or to some systems, "they" require permits anyhow. Unless you work in the shadows.

Pardon me, my pessimistic side is showing this morning. 

But, unlike building a new house, there is alot you can do "in the shadows"  (I like that), especially if you don't add on.  One example is the landlord/architect my son is working for.  In the middle of the city, they're carefully fixing falling down houses from the inside out, so nothing really shows.  They're on the sixth or seventh house now. We're talking about places that could've blown down in a good stiff wind.  Old houses from 1910-1925, foundations iffy, walls nowhere near plumb,outdated plumbing and electric, etc.  A five year project so far, zero interference.  We've done the same thing ourselves on a smaller scale.

BUT, I agree that there are no guarantees.  One of my neighbors tried to build a whole house without permits (!!!!), got caught, and had to tear if down.