permanent living in remote areas ... Pros/Cons?

[Erin]

Yeah you might break an arm or whatever but that can also happen on a camping trip.

True.  But statistically speaking, it's more likely to happen near home for the simple fact that you spend considerably more time there. 

If you know full well that you have a long long way to go to medical care you might just want to watch your step.

Watching your step will not prevent appendicitis or kidney stones.   

[Erin]

BTW, moderators? is there any way this chunk of the thread could be clipped out of here and moved to the OT area? 
I think it's a good discussion, but feel bad that we're hijacking the original question...

[glenn kangiser]

I reviewed the previous posts and it is my opinion that this is still related to things you should consider if living in a remote area.

If I move this section consideration may not be given to the un-availability of medical care. 

Our drift policies allow quite a large tolerance before breaking off to a new topic. This is the way we learn things we might not have learned or considered otherwise.  Thanks for you concern and consideration though.

[ScottA]

My grandmother had this saying. "Be prepared." Which ofcourse led her to carry around a strange selection of goods in her car everywhere she went. A can of corned beef, peanut butter, space sticks (remember those?) and the usual; string, tape, bandaids, flashlight etc. No matter what you needed she had it or something that you could improvise. We spent alot of time out in the sticks when we where kids. I even saw her bake homemade bread on a campfire once. How many people can still do that? She was nearly as at home in the sticks as she was in her kitchen. Point is if you think ahead you can be prepared for just about anything short of disaster.

Scott

[hnash53]

Thanks for allowing the topic to continue, and I don't think that anyone has hijacked the original question.

"Watch your step."  Going without insurance adds an element of risk to everyday living.  I will have to pay more attention to what it is I am actually doing.  I'll have more of an immediate presence to what it is I am doing moment to moment.  That's something our culture doesn't want you to experience.  Our culture is making the attempt to get rid of all risk, all hazards, AND ALL RESPONSIBILITY by enacting rules and regulations and by TRYING TO SCARE THE CRAP OUT OF EVERYONE so that we will continue to sacrifice our lives for the economic machine.  I'm not against economy, but I am through selling my soul and how I want to live so that I can have health insurance.  If I fall, crack and die, well at least it will be while I was working on my cabin ... nothing I'd rather be doing than that.

At the risk of turning this thread to philosophy, I'm at the point of moving from striving for longevity of life to one for quality of life.

If any one liner sums up my philosophy/experience of life, here it is:  My anxiety comes not from my existence, but from the rules and values made up by human beings.

[Erin]

So do you carry auto insurance?  How about home owners?   

[MountainDon]

...I'm at the point of moving from striving for longevity of life to one for quality of life.

Nothing wrong with that. That has been our (K and I) philosophy of life for a long time. We'd rather not die today or next week, because we're still able to do and enjoy things. When the time comes that we can not do and enjoy things we want to, rather than be shuffled off to a nursing home we both want to die.

We've seen a grandmother slowly decline to where she was wheelchair bound & had nothing she enjoyed doing except watching TV. The nursing home kept her alive. She lived there for 10 years; died in her mid 90's. Every time I visited I vowed I'd never live like that. Too many of the residents just sat there like bumps on a log. Karen's mother (86) is presently in a healthcare (nursing home) facility and the one constant over the past month+ is her "I want to die" refrain.

Society by and large, the medical community in particular, has lost sight of the quality of life issue to a great degree, I feel. We have the technology to sustain life well beyond what I consider practical in some cases. I'm not advocating cessation of care once someone reaches some government committee decided point. But people should talk more about what is important in life; where they draw lines in the sand and so on. And others should respect those wishes.

K & I have talked about these issues more and more in the past half dozen years or so. We both know each others wishes very well. Our son and our other extended family members know what we want. We've got everything documented with copies in several places; our medical files included.

The real difficulty comes when the quality line on life's graph descends below your predetermined quality point. It is illegal for anyone to assist you in dieing. You need a plan.

All the above really has nothing to do with the risks of living in remote places. Two separate issues in my mind.

[hnash53]

Erin,
I DO carry home owner's insurance on the cabin, yes, a necessary evil but one I'm willing to do.

I carry just liability insurance on older vehicles ... required by law, and a reasonable thing to require.  I have a 2005 town and country van that only has 12K miles on it that I bought for cash in an estate sale so I will have comprehensive/collision on it for awhile.

I don't have any life insurance but I do have a modest retirement that if something did happen and I died, there would be enough for my family to pick up the pieces and have enough money to buy a modest home and be free of any mortgages.

I plan to live off the monthly earnings of the retirement (so the principle remains untouched) and some kind of seasonal work or talents that I can sell.

High hopes.

[Erin]

I DO carry home owner's insurance on the cabin, yes, a necessary evil but one I'm willing to do.

And

liability...a reasonable thing to require

why? 

Personally, I have the above-mentioned for the same reason I have heath insurance; I'm not willing to risk financial disaster because of something that I can prevent with a monthly premium.

But I'm not seeing your logic, i guess...

[tanya]

I live inthe northwest and a lot of people who live in close proximity to services are without due to the recent storms all the health insurance in the world isn't going to help if the rescuers can't get down the roads so fresh water is a very important thing to stay healthy. I bet there are more than a few who wish they had some petro stashed away too, and perhaps a chain saw, cell phone, batteries, etc.  remote living is a lot like being prepared for disaster, that is because if you are not prepared every day will seem like a disaster.  I took a bad fall yesterday and thought I had broken both knees did I even think of going to the doctor?  No I just got the ibuprophen quick and I am fine except for some lingering pain.  My daughter broke her foot a couple years ago and my son broke his wrist and although they both went to the ER it was the ibuprophen that actually made the difference.  As a matter of fact the Dr. on call was so high my poor sons splint on his wrist was loose and flapping all over luckily my daughter had good emergency training and was able to put it back right.  Needless to say my son refused to go for the follow up.  all's well that ends well. Daughters foot was set right but she took the cast off long before it was supposed to come off due to it getting wet and they refused to put another one on.  but it all worked out fine she walks still.  It's amazing, no limp or anything.  My oldest son though that is a different story...he broke his little finger playing basketball, they set it and gave him some real effective pain meds, so yes you guessed it, he broke it again, and again and again and again until the surgeon refused to operate anymore by then he was strung out and it has been a challenge to get him back on track ever since.   I told him that damn finger is staying broken because I am not driving the additional 300 miles round trip to see another surgeon.  How's that for primative??? 

[Erin]

I've known a lot of people to break fingers and not seek a doc.  Just tape it to the good ones and it'll heal. 
For that matter, my husband broke a foot a few years ago and just wrapped it tight and kept going.  (One of those years when we were over an hour from a hospital)

all the health insurance in the world isn't going to help if the rescuers can't get down the roads

Tanya, there's actually two separate tangents going here. 
Accessibility to medical services and the off-shoot from that, choice to carry insurance or not.

[tanya]

well the choice to carry insurance or not is an easy one fo rme NOT.  Even if I could get insurance I couldn't afford it last time I checked the premium would be over $900 per month just for myself, I have a long history of kidney failure.  Lack of accessibility helps though the last damn thing a sick person needs is company, especially weak company that can't make it down a difficult road. . 

[Erin]

Lack of accessibility helps though the last damn thing a sick person needs is company, especially weak company that can't make it down a difficult road. .

I guess I'm not really understanding what you're getting at here...

So far as availability of insurance with pre-existing conditions; that's about the only reason I would support universal health care, personally. 
I know way too many people who either can not be insured, or have a rider attached to a pre-existing.  (Part of why I don't get it when people who can be insured, choose not to, actually...) 
We have a good friend who has severe back pain.  He needs surgery.  Just turned thirty, father of two, but he has a rider for his back so anytime something serious goes wrong with his back, he's not covered by their insurance.   

[desdawg]

Even if I could get insurance I couldn't afford it last time I checked the premium would be over $900 per month

Here is a good reason to not get insurance Erin. Kinda like making a car payment or a house payment for someone else and at the end of the day you have two hands full of air and a cancelled check. Like I said somewhere else it is kind of like going to the casino-the house always wins.

[Erin]

Here is a good reason to not get insurance Erin

So does this hold true for other types of insurance?  Liability on your car, or homeowners?  How about groceries?  Or are those things that just have to be paid?
Like I said, that's the one reason I'd support universal healthcare; to make it available for those who can't currently obtain or afford it.

More importantly, this tangent was started by people who choose to be uninsured, remember?   

[glenn kangiser]

We are insured, which may be a good choice for living in a remote area, but we don't have to like paying for it.

Insurance of any kind is legalized gambling - sometimes even mandatory legalized gambling in the case of California, unless you are here illegally, in which case apparently you don't need it and it is illegal for the cops to ask if you have it.  I guess that is because they have no assets and can't pay for damages or deaths anyway. 

It is the houses game and they are always going to win.  You are betting against yourself - betting that you are going to lose so in case of a big loss you will possibly win.  It's a dirty game made that way by lawyers and a medical and pharmaceutical industry that realizes there is a major amount of money to be made off of the health tragedies that befall the population. People will nearly sell their soul to try to pay for good health.  Big business knows this.

How much you want to spend for security while living in remote areas is a personal choice.  Do you want to live knowing that you have a security blanket and may not die if something major happens even though you may die penniless after the medical industry has finished with you and your insurance...or do you want to go ahead and keep the money and live life in the pursuit of happiness, knowing that you have already lived a decent life.... living it for being a slave to industry , lawyers and the system may not be worth it to you.

You may be happy knowing that you have lived a decent life and don't want to spend any more of your precious time supporting the bastards.

The tangent continues.

Problem is if I started a new thread for every tangent we considered  that is related to the original question, we would have a million parts of topics that were of no use to anyone.

The search function of the board will find any information related to the searchers interest no matter which topic it is under.  I will remove inappropriate material.  I will move off topics that are unrelated and warrant a new thread..  I do not control the posters keyboards or thoughts.  I am not the thought police and any thing that is remotely related to a thread will be left there. 

However, just because I have not separated a small portion of a topic from a thread that is of major interest to you, don't let that stop you from starting a new topic with an appropriate heading so that that particular topic with it's tangents can be discussed in full.  I try to run things here so everyone can get the information they are interested in. 

Nearly all things in our community interest can be discussed with things not remotely related to building being discussed in the off topics section.  This is the agreement John offered.  If I assist with things not related to his plans we can do this.  He maintains the Plans Support section and comes over here when time allows.  We help there when there is something we can contribute.  Thanks to Don for volunteering to moderate also and to PEG for all the technical support suggestions he offers.

Of course this board would be nothing if it were not for all of the members contributions and ideas so here's a big thank you from me for all of you being here.  I hope you all find this board mutually beneficial.  Tangenty, but mutually beneficial.

I spend around 6 hours a day volunteering time without pay to keep this board straight and spam free and cannot afford to make it into a full time job by analyzing each topic and tangent and separating them into sub-topics.  I can be coerced into doing that for around $250K per year.  A real bargain. 

Until the check arrives, it is necessary for me to hold down a regular full time contracting job when there is something to do.

[Sassy]

As for myself, I kinda like it when we go off on different areas of a subject - if that is what is called a "tangent" - usually some additional valuable info on the subject will be posted because people didn't stay strictly in the "box" 

Here is a link I posted regarding Universal Health Insurance.  You might want to add your 2 cents to that, Erin - as it looks like the politicians are swiftly moving in that direction...

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3638.0

[Erin]

How much you want to spend for security while living in remote areas is a personal choice.

I guess I don't see health insurance, or the lack of, as having anything whatsoever to do with living in remote areas. 
Your appendix is just as likely to rupture if you live in suburbia as if you live in the sticks.
And you're just as likely to go bankrupt paying out of pocket for chemo whether you live five miles from the treatment center or 500...

So far as tangents, I tend to think that's what makes a BB community healthy is when conversations are allowed to run as naturally as possible.  But some boards do try to keep things as compartmentalized as possible (which of course is why most online communities have multiple boards to hit various interests). i just didn't know how picky we were going to be. 

[glenn kangiser]

No problem, Erin.  I'm anti-authoritarian so try to let the boards run pretty free without a lot of interference from me.  It saves me a lot of time and stimulates fruitful thought as well as keeps me from ticking off others because I moved their reply.  Things tend to go out of context a bit also if they get split off, so I try to balance my decisions and only split it when continuity is not dependent upon previous portions of the thread.

I avoid forums that allow rudeness, snippyness and such.  I avoid clubs where politics destroys the enjoyment of the members, so run this forum in the manner I myself enjoy.  I remove rude members or chase them off, because I want to attract the type of people I enjoy being around.  I don't want any new - maybe timid member who hasn't spent time on a forum to fear posting because someone may jump on their case.  I don't allow so called flaming etc.  It is childish and for other forums.

Now -- I haven't quite come to a solution about allowing crazy people here, as I would have to kick myself off.  Still working on that one. .

So --- permission to speak freely -- at ease.  Enjoy the show.

[MountainDon]

I agree that the choice to buy insurance of any type does not really have anything to do with the choices needed to live off in the boonies. A person has all the same insurance decisions no matter where they live.

That said, I believe the only type of insurance that is mandated by law is automobile liability insurance.    Then there's also what might be required by contract; mortgage or some kind of loan.

Other than that all insurance is a matter of choice or conscience. Whether or not to purchase any kind of other insurance needs to be assessed with a look at the risks, benefits and costs involved.

Some types of insurance make sense for certain times. Things like collision and comprehensive on a newer vehicle, like our '06 Honda, makes sense to me. My '99 Jeep is at the point where the payback for collision benefits from the insurance company may be insufficient compared to the premium demanded.

As for home owners insurance, the house would cost too much to replace if it burned down. Sure, in a suburban location it's not likely to burn to the ground. But in my assessment, the cost of the insurance is low enough to warrant insurance. If a person does not want to carry the home owners insurance, that's a personal decision. Though I do I think they should ask themselves if they'd be happy with whatever the Red Cross would offer them though if disaster struck. Or have really good relatives.

Life insurance is another that demands a cost/risk/benefits analysis. Our term life policies that were purchased many years ago at cheap pricing will be taking a quantum leap in premiums at the end of this year. We are allowing them to expire as the need is less now that our son is grown and on his own, and we have no debts and have money saved. If one of us died we'd miss the other, but wouldn't need the death benefit provided by an expensive policy. If we both died, well we don't care to be paying out premiums for someone else to benefit from.

Health insurance to me is another necessity. Again I look at it as a "could I financially survive a big time medical crisis"? If I knew that everything would be more or less normal healthwise and that I'd drop dead suddenly, with no lengthy expensive treatment needed, I wouldn't bother. But I already have a good idea about that given my personal recent medical history. So we pay the man and grin and bear it. Fortunately for us, I worked for the bank just long enough to be qualified to remain as a group insurance member. I have to pay my own premium, but as long as I wish to pay, I can keep the plan. And to me/us, it's worth the payments.

One of the things that bothers me about health insurance though are the problems encountered by those who do not work for big corporations. If you go to work for a big corp, you can not be refused coverage. But if you are a sole proprietor, etc, you have to go through the battery of medical questions and tests. Heaven help you if you've had health issues. Things like that make me wonder if health care should maybe be "socialized". In NM there is a state plan where the uninsured can purchase coverage; pricey but no refusals, no exemptions of coverage. Another bothersome thing about people not carrying health insurance is that in the event of an uninsured needing medical care, many times services are rendered and the costs absorbed by the "system"; that's you and I who do pay premiums.

To me those are the important choices regarding insurance. All other types of insurance I can think of off hand do not make sense in a cost/benefit/risk sense. But that's my opinion. I know folks who purchase service agreements for far too many things and are poorer for it. I can always afford to buy a new DVD player if one breaks down... in fact after a couple years you might even desire a new one with the latest capabilities.

[Erin]

That's pretty much our philosophy too, Don.
I should have full coverage for my '98 Metro?  Why?!?  lol

We don't even have life insurance for the simple fact that we currently live/save on a single income and were one of us to die tomorrow we'd have to do some shuffling around, but the survivors would continue on on one income...

Again I look at it as a "could I financially survive a big time medical crisis"?

This is basically the question we've asked ourselves of anything insurable.  Could we financially survive my $800 car being totalled out?  Yep.  So no comp/collision on the car. 
Could we financially survive if our rented home burned down?  Probably, but renter's insurance is really cheap, so why not have it?   Could we survive financially a big time medical crisis?  Nope.  We couldn't even survive a mediocre-time medical crisis.    So we have health insurance (with a fairly high deduc. to offset the monthly premiums). 
'Tis all a balancing act. 

Heaven help you if you've had health issues. Things like that make me wonder if health care should maybe be "socialized".

Precisely my point with my friend who is becoming a stove-up old man at 30.   

[hnash53]

Just to clear up a few things,

1.  I pay liability insurance on my automobiles because it is required by law in Wyoming.  It's about $12-15 a month.

2.  As others mentioned regarding health insurance premiums, $600-900 a month is a lot of money.  It's enough money per month that people who decide to pay it often end up sacrificing a lot of intangibles ... freedom, not slaving for 40-60 hours per week, and living a life chosen for oneself, rather than having a lifestyle forced upon you by our culture to serve the economic machine.

3.  I think the pros/cons of medical/health insurance is applicable in a discussion about living in remote areas.  It's often that very thing that keeps some people from making favorable choices for themselves.

4.  And finally, I watched "Sicko" by Michael Moore over the weekend.  Now some people may find a few inaccuracies in his work, but the overall message of the movie is true.  Our culture wants us to be sick, to be afraid, be neurotic ... all because it's easier to control us, and it's making boatloads of money for the already wealthy.  I'd encourage you all to watch it.

Best wishes to you all, and thanks for all the input.

Hal

[glenn kangiser]

I think you've got it, Hal.

Sad but true.

[desdawg]

It has been an interesting discussion Hal. It opened up some discussion that may have otherwise never risen to the surface. If you read some of the financial publications like "Money" magazine health insurance is a must have item on most agendas. But if you must have it, no if's and's or but's you are opening the door to be charged whatever rates the  companies want to charge. Even with competition for the business the bar is set high before the bidding begins. There is something really wrong with that picture. I don't like being held hostage.
The only ballot I ever get to cast that seems to carry much weight is when I sit down at my desk and write a check or choose to not sit down and not write a check. All of my other opinions seem to get lost somewhere unnoticed. LOL.
I will have to see if I can find the Sicko movie somewhere.

[Erin]

I think the pros/cons of medical/health insurance is applicable in a discussion about living in remote areas.  It's often that very thing that keeps some people from making favorable choices for themselves.

While I will agree there are things I'd much rather spend our insurance premiums on, I don't think it's responsible to do so.  We happen to live in a very remote area and are raising two kids on an income that is considered low enough to qualify for welfare.  Yet we still manage insurance.
It's tight, but not nearly as much as bankruptcy would be.

I pay liability insurance on my automobiles

So you wouldn't have it were it not required by law?



The thing of it is guys, you don't have to like the system.  But it is what it is. 
And I'm not willing to risk financial ruin.  We're too close to the line as it is. 
Or even non ruin.  For example, we have very little in our retirement accounts because we've only started saving in our thirties.  We spent out twenties paying off my husband's appendix.   


I honestly hope those of you who gamble with this continue to win.