We're getting close (next spring is when we plan to begin on the slab) to starting a build on our property and suddenly the ideas for the house have gone a different route than the original plan.
We're now debating a hybrid earthship. It would be cinder block construction (either bond or dry stack) for the N, E & W walls. The S wall would be 2x8 framing for the windows. SE & SW corners would contain the doors, wife would like small rollup doors (if we can screen them) or "dutch" doors to allow for clear breezes through the home coupled with clerestory windows.
The roof line we're thinking about is like this: http://blog.oregonlive.com/environment_impact/2008/04/solartwo.jpg
The inside of the N, E & W walls would be properly finished straw bale for insulation. The outside would be stucco to match the inside so the appearance is the same.
The rough idea is for 3 bays running North to South. West bay would be utilities/equipment, center bay is living area and the east bay is sleeping.
Now if I can figure out how to use some house plan software I'll try and get an image of it to post. I think I can do a rough drawing in paint or something.
Right now the main question is would the R value of the cinder block/straw bale be of sufficient values to make it worth it. Looking around the web and combining data from a couple sites I'm coming up with an R 54 wall but surely it can't be that high!
So this earth ship hybrid is entirely above ground?
The block walls would have very little R value, but the straw bales should be around R54. That is correct.
Yes above ground. In our area we're on top of a plateau and digging in or building a mound is too cost prohibitive.
We started researching alternative ideas a couple weeks back. Our original idea was based on one of the plans here and used as a dogtrot.
We liked what we saw in earthship design and it meets a lot of our goals. But due to physical limitations and time to build we almost ruled them out. But I decided to look at the approach I mentioned above since I'd seen a couple who used straw bale inside of a steel pole barn.
I'm going to try and draw out a (very) rough plan today but we're following the basic design ideas.
I want something that in effect could be opened up to nature during the more temperate times and closed off during the hotter and colder months with a maximum possible efficiency. Which is where my wifes idea for rollup doors (like garage doors) came from. Though I'm thinking about something more akin to the lifts they use on hangar doors.
I liked the idea of straw bale and since it's relatively easy to come by in our area it seemed pretty logical. But I have absolutely no experience with concrete or stucco, so I have a fair bit to learn.
I know technically you guys don't support the type of construction I'm planning but you've been a fountain of information as well as inspiration already.
I see the concrete block as being an unnecessary expense if you are not burming the house with dirt.
How about a pole structure or timber frame like Stinks's and Drews to the size you want then straw bales for infill and stucco outside , but with an added rain screen wall to make a safety for the straw bales. I would protect the bales with a vapor barrier -- with the screen wall something like Tyvek or Typar would be OK I think 2x4's flat on the outside of the bales, then stucco lath - the chicken wire backed with light tarpaper (common in rolls at Home Depot) attached to the outside of the 2x4 spacers.
Just an idea for you to think about. The straw gives you the insulation of R54. The concrete block only stops the earth from pressing on the bales if backfilled and burmed - no other added advantage that I can see. Stucco is a bit frowned upon by strawbale purist, but as Drew and I discussed - it can be made to work without giving a problem to the strawbales. Most homes around here have stucco rather than mud plaster. Wide eaves are recommended and I add that the screen wall is highly recommended by me in areas with quite a bit of rain. A crack in the stucco could give water an entry without it. Fibermesh added to the stucco could help prevent cracking and add tons of strength at a pretty low cost.
We can teach you stucco.
Not quite sure I'm following you on the rain screen idea. Is this attached to the straw bale and under the stucco?
The ideas for the cinder block wall were (feel free to poke flaws):
- Attachment points for future additions, screening, decking and etc. You obviously don't want to poke holes in a straw bale wall ;)
- Appearance that matches homes in our area.
- Livable during construction. (We have to travel 900 miles round trip during construction).
- Possible future burming should it become feasible at a later date.
- In the event of a wall failure (leak/mold/rot) we'd still have a livable structure while repairs were made.
In the grand scheme it sounds as though that (the cinder block outer wall) would add a negligible cost of around $3k. Which is a lot for us but it seems as though it's good insurance and future proofing.
Yes - the rain screen just provides a place for water to drain away behind the outer wall but before it can get to the inner wall and damage anything like the strawbales.
If you like the blocks and they fit your plans I don't have anything against them -- I was just thinking of the added cost.
I have seen folks doing earthship-style houses with other materials, like concrete block, even tire bales. They all conform the basic rule, however- the north side is bermed into the ground. Otherwise, don't bother calling it an earthship.
You are going to lose a lot of earth tie (cooling and heating) by not following that basic rule. They are also high thermal mass homes with passive solar. Straw bale is not high thermal mass.
Go to "The Natural Home" to learn more. They pioneered the idea of using concrete block in a high thermal mass home that is essentially an earthship without the tires.
http://www.thenaturalhome.com/passivesolar.html (http://www.thenaturalhome.com/passivesolar.html)
Yes, the term earthship refers to earth tempering and this works best in strong winter/summer climates where the earth temperature 3' down or so is close to a comfortable interior temp. (65-70). Then the soil can serve as a thermal flywheel.
When you build above ground with concrete block (which can be structural of course) you have some thermal mass but little insulation. You have to know your site and see if you can use that thermal mass to store solar heat. If not then there is little advantage to building with block as it can be expensive to insulate. The SunKit (http://www.jshow.com/sunkit/listings/7.html) on the CP plans page will let you evaluate the solar on your specific site and determine your best themal mass for the climate your in.
Strawbale can be good insulation but is time and labor intensive. It also has to have another structural system such as timber framing. Standard framing is the option most folks take between good insulation, good strength, easy modification and relative cost considerations (including long term maintenance and resale).
OK, so maybe I should've made the word Hybrid more clear 8) ;) I chose earthship because most people are familiar with the term and the system packages involved. The things we're taking from the Earthship concept is water reuse, open bay format, solar gain and the natural planters inside and out along the south window wall and more. Essentially everything BUT the earth tie.
Arguably you could say we'll have an earth tie in the sense that our air intake(s) from the outside (during the hottest and coldest seasons) will be buried 9' underground and have roughly a 60' run underground to balance the air temp. :-* But that doesn't quite fit the concept I know. As I said above, eventually we may actually be able to berm it in on the north side which would be more inline with the concept (reasons for the block are above as well). To dig down on our property to build a house would be too cost prohibitive. So we're planning to build above ground and berm it in later if possible.
As for thermal mass, we have in mind several storage masses including a seasonal trombe wall, stone floors and etc. I'm looking more towards insulative factor to retain heating and cooling rather than earth mass to obtain it. This place will be grid tied for a few years so we have time to incorporate more effective systems in the future, but if we start well insulated we're half way there. (ack! I hope that made sense)
In our case we're looking for the highest possible R value we can squeeze out of natural building materials. So the straw seems to be the best choice, but we're always looking which is why I came here since there's a lot of solid and skilled brain pans to pick. I'm open to everything that's said.
We had a solar survey done last year, I'll have to find the results. This resulted in us moving our planned building site nearly 400' farther south on our property to give us the best possible winter coverage.
What climate are you building in, and what are the soils like? Well drained, clay, gravel, etc.
It sounds like you have a good solar site. Are you getting good winter sun as well?
John,
It's typical mid-Ozarks climate. Are you asking general averages? If so:
Summers are usually 85-90 average and humidity is usually high. Though last summer we had a few very low humidity days that reminded me of the desert.
Winters are usually in the 38-40 degree range. But it does get cold, there were a few days this year down around 20 while we were down.
You can check here: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/sgf/?n=records_normals
The soil is heavy clay, sand and rock mix, great graze land but poor for gardening (unless you want a rock garden! 8) ). This photo sums it all up:
(http://www.ozarksgardens.com/jpg/d/m/RgFYQNBooqAJ/TLJOpwbSnVDCFjO/dirt_01_jpg.jpg)
The build site drains well as we sit the highest on our little plateau. Heh, it all runs to the neighbors place. Keeps his pond full, so "our" surface water will keep him in fish! ;D
Winter sun was great at the new selected build site this year, might have to remove a tree or two on the south east corner. I didn't think the survey was right but we stayed there a couple times this winter and it beams right in where the survey said.
Thanks for that - it is always helpful to understand the climate folks are in.
You're in a mostly heating climate with maybe a little cooling help in the summer. Winters are relatively mild and you are far enough south for a decent sunpath through the sky to provide usable light. It sounds like soil and drainage should not be big issues. Building on slightly higher ground is always advantageous.
Solar is something you can definitely take advantage of but savings and returns will not be as dramatic as if you were in the high country of the desert Southwest.
QuoteNone of us are as smart as all of us.
HAH! That's exactly why I'm here. Never noticed your signature before.
The only negative to the area (IMHO) is the trailer and unkempt property up on the corner of our road. Our neighbors to the east are fantastic! The ground as far as a garden is easily worked around via raised beds.
OK, I'll try and get a drawing together this weekend. I may do it on paper and then scan it in first. I am no architect so please don't expect perfection. d*
The floor plan we loved is actually from Dustin's link. I'd been there plenty of times. Rather than embed the image into this post, here's the link directly to it: http://www.thenaturalhome.com/floorplana1.jpg
I guess our concern in this manner is just the fact of a low R wall vs a high thermal mass. It seems to make more sense to me to adapt it, starting with high R value insulation and then add thermal mass in the form of stone planters, flooring and trombe walls. It's difficult to go back and add R value to an established home but easy (in this type of design) to add thermal mass.
Clarification anyone?
I agree. The first principal for a home in all but the most ideal conditions is to insulate the shell well. That means all 6 sides. Then you can add thermal mass and south glazing to that environment and the stored heat and "coolth" will be able to make a difference.
So, in general, you want to insulate on the outside of thermal storage materials.
But, be advised, your climate may not justify high cost high mass strategies such as trombe walls. They certainly aren't justified (and don't work!) in my cloudy winter climate. Insulated direct gain slab floors do, however (and you get to use the SF to live on!)
Trombe wall comment noted.
This weekend we'll sit down and discuss how much square footage we really need. I know it's probably going to need to be about 1600 sq. feet but I'm sure there's got to be a minimum/maximum for the solar gain to be at an equilibrium. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I remember reading something about something about size vs. effectiveness, too small was too hot and too big was too hot (based on design characteristics).
Another question: In the hottest of seasons you still need the sunlight (in the design option I posted above) for your plants. How do you keep that heat in the planter area and not have it circulate into the house? I know you need something like in a greenhouse where you vent it out on the end walls by the glass wall (edit: just read this comment on the HTM site). Obviously some will be brought into the house and then up and out the clerestory, how do you deal with the rest of it? I know we could put throw rugs down onto the slab in those areas to slow/stop the thermal mass from gaining too much.
You will want to decide early on how much you want to LIVE in a greenhouse with the plants vs having an attached greenhouse you can SHARE with the house.
Glenn may have some thoughts on this as his may be more integrated.
For myself, I have an attached, unheated sunroom that is thermally uncoupled from the house by an insulated window wall. When too hot or too cold we close the doors and windows between the two. In spring, fall and winter when the sunroom has extra heat we open up this wall. With passive vents the sunroom is never more than 10ยบ above outdoor air temperature.
Solar Saltbox (http://www.jshow.com/y2k/listings/55.html).
We have pretty wide eaves on the south but hte sun really shoots in there in the winter.
Our greenhouse is above the uphill patio to prevent rain from entering the high side of the house fo it's a bit different than you would think of as a normal sunroom.
We have successfully experimented with a solar powered fan to send the heat down below, but we don't really need it -- lots of waste wood on the property that needs to be cleaned up anyway. We only need about 1 1/2 cord per year anyway.
So we sat down this weekend and looked at size and etc. Having moped around measuring and marking off spaces in the wifes family barn we came up with 1600-2000 sq ft. This depends a lot on our future package (i.e. children and home business). 1600 is the definite low end and 2000 is the high.
I do keep running the greenhouse through my head. I *love* the idea of the planters in the house so that our most common veggies and herbs are right there, we get the partial air filtration by the plants and the house would seem more alive and natural as well. - the heat poses some questions in my mind but the screening recommended on the Natural Home site is something I'm already familiar with and it does work fairly well. (Here is where I need to hear from others who have built this way - is it effective and what is your climate compared to ours in Missouri?)
Another question came up - I like the idea of the "earth tubes" recommended on the Natural Home site, and the fact that he's used smooth wall pipes that can be cleaned. Has anyone done this?
General construction question - with a monolithic slab, how do you account for water drainage in the even of a leak? I should add that my idea of monolithic slab is just that - solid slab no penetration through it like drains. Maybe my definition is different than that of the real world ;) ;)
As far as insulation, he's recommending EPS which makes sense but it's not a natural material. He also mentions straw bale but this poses a question - IF you were to use straw bale against the outside of the SBC block, how do you seal the "inside" of the straw bale? i.e. what's against the brick. I can see that as being a condensation point in a high humidity environment.
Earth tubes cool warm air causing the moisture it is carrying to condense and fall out. I would say to have the entrance high as the warm air will cool ad get heavier - then make a way to drain condensation off at the low end of the tubes which is also the air exit end.
SO while reading this morning I came across this and had to post it... Must be some FANTASTIC engineering!
QuoteThermal control membrane (TCM), a multi-layered metalized film membrane and is our latest patented energy conservation product. TCM is simply rolled out over your existing insulation which changes the direction of heat. Out during the summer and in during the winter. Unlike other single layer reflective membranes, TCM is impervious to gravity, dust or settling.
??? :o ???
Sounds like the old reinvention of "reflective barrier" insulation. Each new energy crisis seems to have a marketer who reinvents this quick fix solution that someone (the government, the building industry) is trying to suppress.
This time the miraculous membrane has acquired anti-gravity properties!
Ain't technology wonderful! :D
Heh, yeah there's a lot of smoke and mirrors in the building industry particularly when it comes to energy savings. Not saying their product is... but it certainly doesn't defy gravity! ;D
We've picked the rough floor plan and will base it on this one: http://www.thenaturalhome.com/floorplana.jpg This will give us roughly 2300 sq feet, a little more than we wanted but it's a very workable plan and we did want a relatively open plan.
Next question, we don't want to waste the trees for purlins, would rather season it and mill down for finish work and furniture. I saw a wooden I-beam at the big box store the other day, it was made from a 2x4 top and bottom and chip board as the middle part of the beam. I like the idea and it's a good use of "scrap" to make the chip board. There's a concern between my wife and I about the glues used. i.e. they may contain formaldehyde. Anyone have any experience with these?
(http://www.buildinggreentv.com/files/images/gluLamI-beam.preview.jpg)
It looked like this but I think the board was larger top and bottom, like I said more like a 2x4.
QuoteEngineered wood products also have some disadvantages:
* They require more primary energy for their manufacture than solid lumber.
* The required adhesives may be toxic. A concern with some resins is the release of formaldehyde in the finished product, often seen with urea-formaldehyde bonded products.
* Cutting and otherwise working with engineered wood products can expose workers to toxic constituents.
The types of adhesives used in engineered wood include:
* Urea-formaldehyde resins, (UF), most common and cheapest, not waterproof.
* Phenol-formaldehyde resins, (PF), a yellow-brown adhesive commonly used for exterior exposure products.
* Melamine-formaldehyde resin, (MF) a white, heat and water resistant resin, often used in exposed surfaces in more costly designs.
* Methylene diphenyl diisocyanate (MDI) or polyurethane resins which are expensive and generally waterproof do not contain formaldehyde.
A more inclusive term is "structural composites". For example, fiber cement siding is made of cement and wood fiber, while cement board is a low density cement panel, often with added resin, faced with fiberglass mesh. Plastic extrusion mixes of wood fiber and thermoplastic, such as polyproplyene, has given rise to decking and railing material resistant to weather and is steadily replacing rot resistant wood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_wood
ack! :o
I know PF outgasses relatively quickly but I guess there's no real way of knowing what is in the beams.
OK, so if we went that route does anyone have a glue recommendation? Obviously this is something that can be site built.
Any other beam suggestions? Flat roof with about a 25 degree pitch, minimal snow load (rarely get snow, but do get ice storms), 16 - 18' span.
Commercial/industrial look is fine since part of our design idea is sort of an "Earth meets Man" goal.
Hi
Interesting project. I'm not so sure that you can build those on site so easy. I think with your spans solid lumber would work for about the same money. You can build other kinds of trusses on site pretty easy if you don't have to worry about inspection or if it's OK with them.
What kind of insulation value are you looking for and what were you thinking of using? What do you want for a ceiling? If you were thinking of some type of window wall for your greenhouse that could work pretty easy with a post, beam, purloin, plank ceiling. That would work with rigid insulation and a metal roof.
I have thought of using those industrial re-bar trusses for a house, I think if you like industrial they could be pretty [cool]! Painted with light from your light tubes bouncing around. Guess they must coast a fortune now with the price of steel, (Ceiling? metal?) maybe if you could get the trusses used.
John is on to something about the greenhouse/sunspace. Living space, heating, and greenhouse don't all add up to the same thing. When you optimise one you minimize the others kinda of. They had some anti-gravity greenhouse's way back, I built one 8) in 1978! I would make sure that I understood what I was doing with any mass inside my house.
I'm having some trouble with getting what I want in a small enough footprint. I want a big pantry, laundry room, full bath and half bath as well as a good size bedroom with closets tacked on to a living/dining/kitchen space that's big enough to have 5 or 6 couples over. Think 12 geezer's with chubby checker singing "Twist baby Twist" and all the furniture pushed back, or a 2 table poker party.
Anyway I'm thinking of placing my dinning room in a thermally isolated sun space and space heating it when I had to. Ideally I could hinge a bunch of sliding glass door panels together maybe on piano hinges and open up the the room. I would love to capture all the excess heat and store it but I want to keep it simple too.
And if you have wood to burn what Glen said trumps all heating considerations.
I'm also looking into the glues there are a lot of people that are trying to build with out or with as little of the glues and stuff. I'm not real hung up on it but if it's all the same I would like to keep them out.
Mike
Thanks Mike. For the roof insulation our minimum goal is R38. Ceiling finished with T&G or a faux T&G from a solid sheeting.
I'm going to be looking at more truss ideas in the next few days. I've seen the rebar style I think you mean. I like those and I like the one that's an I beam design where the top and bottom is dimensional lumber and the center portion of the beam looks like conduit it rebar, this one seems to be common up here in commercial applications. There's also a metal web floor truss that I like the look of but not yet sure of it's load capacity.
(http://www.starbuildingmaterials.ca/startrussw/www/images/products/products-metalwebtruss.jpg)
Understand the points about the greenhouse being integrated as part of the house. It's a concern of mine too, but it seems to be an issue that can be worked on and dealt with. It looks like it's a common issue in a lot of passive gain situations. Solutions found so far: We can minimize the amount of angled glass, opting to go with a more standard patio door approach on some of the south wall (lowering the overall summer gain). Shade cloth usage like in commercial greenhouses. Trellis systems could be built to shade summer sun.
The winter sun angle ranges in December at 29 degrees and in March it's back up to 52 degrees. Summer solstice is up to 72 degrees.
I thought about light tubes too. This gives me one issue I'd like to avoid and that's anything penetrating the main roof. Currently we're thinking of standing seam metal roofing since it gives us the longest life and we're planning rain water collection so we obviously don't want shingles.
Love the idea of the big dance floor! :)
ListerD
I'm both thinking out loud and hoping to learn.
Night time cooling is a bigger issue then summertime overheating for me and I would think for you also, especially if you don't mind using removable shades Trellises can really be nice, I like scarlet runner beans and so do the Hummer's. You would have more options because of your climate.
John's sun space is one thing to do, with the insulated wall, but in my climate it reduces the greenhouse aspect to a season extender, even with angled glass.
I want a Victorian Glass House that insulates to about R-15+ when the sun doesn't shine [cool] on it's own. With heated soil. Hot Tub!
5 or 6 slider panels could collect enough heat to heat any house I would build maybe twice if I could store it and distribute it. but so would a couple of cords of wood. But how about if I'm 80?
If you use slider panels make sure that they let the light in, I have read about people getting the wrong ones even when they specified and didn't find out till after install. I sometimes wonder if this was one person and just gets going around the net? This happened to you? No but my cousin's nephew's sister in law's brother's cousin's nephew's best friend's best friend knew a guy...
If you are a pro-active gardener you can do better in cold frames if you can heat the soil a little, hot manure is one way. Grab all the old windows you can they last longer then plastic.
I think anyone building a year round house you should look at a sunspace. I think for the DIY'er you can build one cheaper per square foot then regular space and use it most of the time. I'm thinking about a dinning room/sitting room with a space heater, that would be allowed to go cold over night.
Mike
Not sure I'm following you on the sliders. I assume you mean the roll up style sun shades?
If we go that route the plan is to use the full length shading like show on his website.
Another idea was barn door tracked shade screens like you see in some of the newer passive home designs wood 1x1 slats in a frame suspended on the sliders. You should roll them in front of the window for shade.
Spent the last day or so looking at slab ideas and roofing.
We really wanted to do standing seam roofing but after talking to a contractor that would most likely do the job it's far too cost prohibitive. He suggested standard galvanized roofing for the initial roof and then later possibly going to standing seam.
As to the slab, a concrete contractor I spoke to yesterday refused to do the job unless we insulated between the slab and the soil. I explained this would kill the earth tie to which he responded with a couple expletives (something to the effect of where my hippie tree hugging self could shove the foundation), I bet he doesn't get many jobs!!!
That's how you weed out the contractors you don't want to deal with. rofl
The standing seam is not reusable in the case where the machine crimps the edges together -- garbage after that--- so much for remodels. There are some others that use hidden clips that are also called standing seam-- I don't like any of it myself.
ListerD
Repacement glass for sliding glass doors, what most people used to use for sunrooms.
Mike
Yeah Glenn he got crossed off the list right away! I've heard from our neighbors who not to use down there for the most part.
We'll probably just go with the standard old galvanized roof and put the money elsewhere. The roofer I talked to had some great ideas but they were either too expensive or made me uneasy thinking about rainwater collection and reuse and chemical leaching.
Mike - I gotcha, you mean to use the replacement sections for sliding doors as the whole south face glass. That is certainly an option and it's on the list.
Concrete finishing - any suggestions? Something less/non-toxic?
http://www.retroplatesystem.com/ has what outright seems to be "natural".
Finally back... Was out due to medical issues. More questions soon d*
We were wondering what happened to you -- we'll be here.
Heh, didn't think I'd been here long enough for anyone to miss me. 8)
All of our members are special as they are just a bit ahead of the rest of the crowd. :)
Heh, Point taken.
Thanks for the welcome back! c*
Any thoughts on floor finishing? See July 21st posting.
The concrete finishing posted has to be expensive -- how about compacted earth floors with a vapor barrier under and linseed oil finish? Also how about the thin concrete and jute fiber floor like I did around our pool or a couple areas in our cabin.? hmm
Here is a link to the floor by our pool.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.msg62468#msg62468
Another view as the bench was put on it.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.msg63097#msg63097
Interesting! Will check it out.
We'd planned on an on grade cement slab to tie the thermal mass to the ground. How well does this hold structurally?
The earth floor is softer than the concrete floor but holds up well with care. The cob and linseed oil is the most durable of the earth floors. The light duty floor is concrete and is rated at about 50 lbs psf but has been tested at 250 or so with no problem - heck I can almost load it to that myself.
Unless the thermal mass is insulated from the ground it seems that the earth just soaks up all of the heat and takes it away. I would think structural foam board under the mass would do it though. Possibly gravel could provide break also.
Here is a link to the CBRI light duty concrete floor I did in our place.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.msg7536#msg7536
The plans call for a moisture barrier and gravel only under the slab. We've turned the plans as we got them over to an engineer (structural) friend of mine and then they'll go to an architect friend of his for review. The principle here is the ground is/becomes the heat sink for the home in addition to the mass of the home itself. I have to admit to still being a little skeptical, but having researched this some the science and common sense principles seem solid. But hey, I've got the resources in a couple friends so I'll tap them (as well as you guys). We've still got about a year before we start anything so I've got time.
I've been emailing back and forth with someone who has built a home of virtually the same construction in northern Arkansas. His home built to these (or very similar) plans has an 8 degree average swing in temperature day to night and around a 12 degree seasonal swing (i.e. average indoor summer temp is ~79 and average indoor winter temp is ~67). He has found a need for A/C in August but his unit is only a 10k btu window shaker and that is in his words because he "likes to sleep cold". He said that a few times in the winter they fire up a small woodstove to take the chill out but most winter days it's just "throw on a sweatshirt". I've read a lot of reports similar to this from other HTM owners/builders.
I love the look of the floor you did in the earlier photos and it's got my wife kind of excited. I could see us at a minimum using the templates to get the individual stone look.
I talked to a client of ours who is a GC in commercial construction (mostly tilt-up wall construction) he likes the stained concrete floors and said a lot of companies that they're building for are asking for it, but said it is a little strong smelling for a few months afterwards (using conventional floor staining methods). He's never done the more natural concrete staining so had no ideas there. He's going to ask their floor guys and see if they have any info or experience with it.
I just make the flagstones freehand with a jointer tool. You can get the rubber stamps to make it look more stonelike - -- like Bomanite.
Heh, you're definitely more patient! I like the rubber stamp! ;D
Really liked the pics of the "cheap and easy" floor Glenn. And the pics in that thread of your garden forbs were awesome too. It's amazing what will grow when we let Nature take it's course.
The flooring discussion is of great interest to me, because I've been wondering just how we'll do that in our home. Walking on concrete all day is not my idea of comfort, and even the laminate floor we have in our current home makes the feet and ankles ache at the end of the day. Guess that's a sure sign I've spent too much time indoors on those days, and need to take the wife and kids out for a stimulating afternoon of fencing!! :)
ListerD, you may want to also ask some questions on the Malcolm Wells Yahoo Chat Group. They've been a wealth of knowledge for me. Lots of people who already live in earth-sheltered homes, some who have built their own. Just another group of good folks who enjoy helping others through sharing experience, much like the ones here.
Quote from: PureCountry on September 16, 2008, 12:53:17 PM
Really liked the pics of the "cheap and easy" floor Glenn. And the pics in that thread of your garden forbs were awesome too. It's amazing what will grow when we let Nature take it's course.
The flooring discussion is of great interest to me, because I've been wondering just how we'll do that in our home. Walking on concrete all day is not my idea of comfort, and even the laminate floor we have in our current home makes the feet and ankles ache at the end of the day. Guess that's a sure sign I've spent too much time indoors on those days, and need to take the wife and kids out for a stimulating afternoon of fencing!! :)
The whole family involved building fence could really get a lot done especially with air nailers. hmm
You didn't mean trying to stick each other with long knifey things did you? hmm rofl
I think the most comfortable floor to walk on would be the cob floor, but the jute/fibermesh reinforced floor around the pool has a great amount of give to it- not at all like concrete...more like the cob/earth floor, but maybe more durable. I sometimes refer to it as my concrete carpet.
The overall comfort of the floor is something we'd worried about too. We kind of have it in the back of our mind to check out the big recycled rubber mats like they use on playgrounds now too, but then again how do you keep them clean?
PureCountry - I'll check out the link. Thanks!
Just spend a lot of your time sitting in a chair (a comfortable one). [crz]
Hah! As if that's possible...! :( :) ;)
I'll be sure to tell my wife that Glenn said I can spend lots of time in my rocker. c*
Women don''t always agree with me. d*
Quote from: ListerD on September 17, 2008, 11:04:07 AM
Hah! As if that's possible...! :( :) ;)
I'll be sure to tell my wife that Glenn said I can spend lots of time in my rocker. c*
And I'm sure she'll waste no time in responding that you are in fact
off your rocker.
hehehe! She already knows that! :) :P
Who else would want to live in a concrete box int he middle of nowhere Missouri? Well, quite a few people actually but you have to question their (and mine) sanity.
Use wood not concrete. If you build a Faraday cage around her she'll really go wacko on you. It may disrupt her thought processes - maybe even give her brain damage. d*
Oehler is against concrete and steel - not healthy he says. d*
You know, I had a question this morning.
Went in the kitchen and got my coffee then came in here, sat down and promptly forgot my question... c*
Happens to me all the time. d*
It'll come back when your computer is off or you are away. Sit down to type it out and it will go away again. Carry a pencil and paper. Try to remember to write it down.
Try to remember to look at it.
That's how I do it. [crz]
Yeah CRS is kicking in... >:(
I heard that...
What was that again? hmm
CRS: Can't Remember Sh!t
Oh wait, you knew what it meant and was making a joke. I gotta stop going to the forums before my coffee has kicked in. d*
You got it. [crz] :)
Well the question was:
We're looking at a cold roof, is it possible (sensible?) to make the base out of SIPs and then the cold box on top of it? Rough pricing doesn't seem to be much different in cost.
I'm not familiar with that - do you have info or a link on it?
Not familiar with which part?
SIP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_insulated_panel
Quick diagram of a cold roof:
(http://www.cedarbureau.org/installation/roof_manual/images/p18-fig21c-big.gif)
The cold roof. What is the theory or purpose of it?
For most of our applications we have stayed away from the sips as it changes to an engineered building. Without permits it would not be a much of a problem as long as structural safety is considered..
Best definition is here: http://www.innovativeroofingconsultants.com/guidelines_cold_roof.html
It's essentially a double deck roof with a cold air venting.
SIPs are a great way to build, but you really don't want to mix them with standard stick framing or you will loose the benefits of the SIP construction. There is a SIP forum that has some good advice, although no where as good as this forum. A lot of the answers are somewhat biased, but there are a few regulars that will give you the straight scoop. Chris "cmkavala". Here is the link to the general area, then select the SIP forum.
http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/
I do not vouch for anyone on that forum.
Bruce
I'll check out the forum. Thanks.
Not really planing on SIPs, was just touching on an idea.
Hell, last night I had a dream we'd done the house in the shape of a box with an open courtyard in the middle.
Oh, a typical larger Mexican house. They are really nice. :)
LOL! I just got the image of a cardboard box. ::)
Actually I'm sure this is what sparked the dream since I'd seen it yesterday. http://www.materialicious.com/2008/10/concrete-box-ho.html
Anybody have an idea how you water proof that flat concrete?
Mike
I know there's concrete finishers like Thompsons and etc. My first idea when I saw this was just to tilt the roof at a slight angle outwards.
Either way, I know this one is or would be expensive so I just looked for finish ideas in the gallery linked there.
I use Concrete Cure and Seal but there are others such as Sanitred that grab right into it and make a permanent tough water tight seal.
Wow! Been a bit since my last post here. Been having back problems and other misc life stuff getting in the way...
Gotta catch up with a couple threads and then come back here for some more questions.
I am way late to this discussion, but enjoy talk about earthships, and hybrids, and unconventional approaches to home building.
You might check out the thread linked in the build section about the off-grid build in TN. It's an earthship of sorts.
The only comment I have is on the floor plan: If it were me, I would flip positions on the laundry room and pantry.
I understand the desire to have plumbing in a small area, but the washer could still be pretty close to the master bath.
I would want the pantry next to the kitchen, and the laundry room noise as isolated as possible.
Just my 2 cents.
OK, so I've had my coffee this morning. c*
Poppy - great thread on the TN home! Lot's of interesting info!
I'll point that out to the wife and see what her thoughts are on the laundry room. I liked it in the corner because we were actually thinking of beefing up the construction in the "pantry" and using it as a storm shelter/safe room (as the wife calls it) as well. It just seemed to be a natural fit. I do understand your point on noise though and will look into it.
Does anyone have a good breakdown on the "Water Organization Module" used in the EarthShip designs? We're at the point that water systems are our current investigation. I understand basic filtration but we're interested in being able to convert captured rainwater to a potable source in case of emergency (well failure or what ever).
I ordered the "Earthship: Systems and Components" book but I am an impatient sucker. Plus I wanted to see what everyone here is doing for water systems.
I overlooked this post over the past few weeks.
For rainwater purification, once the dirt is cleaned out of the water, and the water is clear, UV systems work extremely well from what I understand. They have an advantage over conventional filter media that is not always thought of. A home that is used seasonally and is subject to freezing weather when vacant and un-heated will have problems with the conventional style of filter cartridges. If they freeze they are "toast". I've also been told in my conversations with the filter experts that once the media is wet it must stay that way. A UV system would just need to be thoroughly drained.
Sounds like good info. there, Don.
I grew up in a farm house with rainwater as the primary water source into a cistern with a manual pump. No filters or purification of any kind was used. :o
We would know when the water level got too low when earth worms showed up in the bucket. ::)
Anyway, I plan to use rainwater as my primary water source for my cabin and will be following this thread closely. I may haul in drinking water for awhile, but want a good clean system.
Quote from: John Raabe on June 27, 2008, 06:31:59 PM
You will want to decide early on how much you want to LIVE in a greenhouse with the plants vs having an attached greenhouse you can SHARE with the house.
I was thinking about this just now. We've pretty much settled on the design from thenaturalhome.com (http://thenaturalhome.com). Some tweaks for exterior style and inside walls will be finished with more softer lines (rounded corners and etc.).
Any thoughts on how to turn the planters into a green house in the summer. They're a pretty integral part of the actual home design but I'd like to have a "backup" plan if the warming effect is too much in the summer. We've had suggestions of throw rugs on the floors in the summer to slow absorption and obviously more ventilation to speed air through the house.
Would it be possible to make removable glass panels? i.e. make a glass wall that's removable. Something like this would in effect separate the planting bed from the rest of the house, turning the bed into a greenhouse in the summer. I guess it would be possible but the issue would probably be cost. The glass wall would be 8' H x 52' long!
I guess I could do french doors all the way but that would intrude into the living space too much. Hmmm... ???
Don, missed your post earlier today.
I have some stuff on UV and will look into it. One article somewhere (here maybe?) was talking about pressure issues and stagnant water. Seemed something about too high of a flow allowed bacteria to stream past the UV light. It may have been in the Off Grid in TN story.
A book I looked at said for rainwater just a single activated charcoal filter. I guess that assumes a very clean catch of rain water.
I've changed my water panel design to add an input for rain water. Just not sure where in the filter chain I should put it. Sounds like towards the end would be fine. I need to draw that in a graphic file so I can post it here.
Kind of thinking out loud here.
Re: Earthtubes
I was planning on having a 20' cargo container to contain some of the systems (electrical modules). The idea for the container initially was grid power comes into it and then feeds into the home from there. It allows for easy expansion and modification without tearing up the house.
Say we add solar in the future, we only need to tie in everything in the container since it already is tied to the home via buried cable. The container doubles as a mount point for panels and etc.
What if I used that also to house the air intakes for the earthtubes? i.e. the incoming stacks penetrate into and out of the container. This would allow the addition of a whole house dehumidifier at that point to drop incoming humidity levels prior to air entering the tubes for cooling. The humidifier drains excess moisture out the side or bottom into a leach pit of some type or feeds a nearby fruit tree or something.
I'd planned on several 8" earthtubes already and coincidentally the Honeywell dehumidifiers have an 8" intake connection.
And, I'm back... been a while again. We're still scheming and dreaming!
We were just down on the property again, issues with a new neighbor. Seems he thought our property was part of his. I guess he thinks 15 acres visually is 10 on paper (he bought 10 and assumed his went to a fence on our east side, we haven't put in the western fence yet). We also bought another 5 acres east of us.
Not much has changed with our plans, we are still changing around floorplans and looking at ideas.