This is my first post in this forum.
So, I just purchased 5 acres of land for recreation and to build my retirement home. This is upstate NY.
I have about 4.25 acres of open land and .75 of woods at the rear. I also have 300 Ft of road frontage.
I will like to know where is the best place to have the house...your recommendation.
I will also like to know what are your suggestion for foundation type. I was thinking Basement for the house, slab for the garage and 4 post over the ground for the shed.
I will probably build the shed first so I can have somewhere to hangout while I am there.
Suggest away...
Thanks for reading.
(https://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb445/net_eng/lot17-alone.jpg)
w*
There are several deciding factors which could dictate the location.
Will there be city water or are you going to drill a well. If a well I would determine that location first.
Secondly the septic. There are distances that it has to be from the well in most state/counties. Staying within those distances will the ground perk away from your primary house site (1st pick) or will it incorporate part of your house site to accomidate those restrictions/perkability.
Personally I like a basement if you can make it water tight with proper foundation system. You never stated whether the land is level, rolling, steep. This too comes into factor with the septic and foundation. Will it be a walk-out or completely submerged basement.
A slab will be fine for the garage. Again depending on your needs/use of the garage will it be heated to work during the winter months. If so you might consider radiant floor heat. Not that you have to completely install it but if you ran the flooring tube and stubbed off you can always add a boiler system later. Is this going to be a one/two car garage. think floor drains. Being in a north east state you will probably get some snow fall. So the reason I said drains which are relatively inexpensive you could put one mid center of each bay tied together. When the snow/ice melts it will run under the car rather than where you step gettting in/out to a room centered drain.
I guess when you say 4 pole shed you are referring to a skid shed. That will be fine if you plan on moving at a later date. I would probably build it on either block or concrete piers if it will be permanently located. You never mentioned what size shed so the foundation type might be dictated by that.
Another couple factors for consideration would be set-backs from adjoining property boundry and driveway location.
Just some things to think about.
The only thing the city has there is electric and telecom and I will probably not use those. I am thinking to have solar power for electric.
I will have to get both a septic and a well dug. I am not sure how far apart they should be. I also have to take into consideration that my neighbors can have theirs anywhere, including right next to me.
I think the I will probably get one of those compost toilet for now and have both the foundation for the house and the septic put in about the same time.
The land is fairly level excepting the- looking at the map- the lower right is a about 1 degree higher and it level off at the three corners.
There is a lot of snow/rain up there so yes, everything has to be drainable - if thats a word.
I like the basement idea too but I may have to take a contractor to get it done. Not unless you guys can walk me through the process.
The garage should be able to accommodate 2 suv and a mini workshop.
The shed is the technical and The main guy in this picture now. Well, temporarily at least.
I was actually referring to the concrete piers but I couldn't remember the name at that time.
This will be the first thing I want to build. I want it to be something like a 1.5 bedroom.
The current use of the shed will be home while the house is under construction. It should not be too big nor too small. I should also be able drive a ATV in the living room when I am not there.
Long term, this will be a guest house or a storage facility or a man cave.
All these purchases and project are all CASH and I don't have any since I just paid for the land. I know, right, and to make it worst, this is only a weekend project.
The area is the great. It's next to two state Forrest and the finger lakes. It's also 4.5 hrs from NYC or Canada
Deciding where the house, garage and shed goes will also assist me in deciding where I will want to plant trees and my wife's much anticipated garden is going to be.
My goal is to have the shed done by next winter and start saving for the basement/foundation/septic project. Over all, the next three years, everything should be done.
Thanks again for your help
I am almost 100% that well and septic in NY have to be 200ft apart from each other. Preferably drinking water uphill lol.
Welcome to upstate ny.
Place septic first. Almost every locality (I'm a county or two east) requires a perc test and a septic site plan by a septic engineer before any building permit for a house is considered. It is best to do this first because it is the hardest thing to place. If you build a garage or shed over the only area with approved soil you just made yourself an unbuildable lot. Plan your homesite and well around that.
Here is a link to all set backs and requirements to the NY health department codes for septic.
http://www.health.ny.gov/regulations/nycrr/title_10/part_75/appendix_75-a.htm
You are 100% correct speedfunk.
(a) When wastewater treatment systems are located upgrade and in the direct path of surface water drainage to a well, the closest part of the treatment system shall be at least 200 feet away from the well.
Get yours done first and then your neighbors have to worry about yours not the other way around. There should be diagrams with your local building department.
I have seen debates on whether a well or homesite would be the next step. Some say a home is harder to place and the well is more of a question of depth.
Oh yeah. w* to upstate NY.
And here comes the neighborhood. [cool]
The best advice are from the locals. Thanks guys. City people always think differently.
The circle on the map is where the perc test was done.
Are there any cheap but good contractor upthere for the septic project?
Do you think I can handle the septic project myself?
With 300 ft in front and 215 at the back, what is the largest house I can have on there and still be comfortable to have a driveway, and lots of yard space for the wife flower garden around the house?
We are also debating whether we should start with the house or just have a cabin/small house for now while we build the house. what is you guys take on that
I am like Squirl always septic first. With your well and sewer set backs, you also have to take into account your neighbors well to your septic, and their well to your septic. As well as your own well and septic relationship to each other. Here in my area there is a state department called District Health and I have found they are great at helping you locate all that. I have found the worst problem is getting your perk test done. Sometimes things under the ground just do not want to cooperate very well. i.e. high water tables, or soil that just will not drain are a couple of things.
Where we live we can put in your own septic system. If you do you have to do it yourself, and expect to get a stricter inspection. I have put in two septic systems they are easily done if you have experience with backhoes and can handle inspectors. I would certainly get a couple bids and then compare that to what I could do it myself at. That said it can get pretty expensive learning backhoe 101 with a backhoe from the rental center with the meter running while shooting grade, and doing hand work with a shovel.
Quote from: Net_Eng on March 06, 2011, 10:22:32 PM
With 300 ft in front and 215 at the back, what is the largest house I can have on there and still be comfortable to have a driveway, and lots of yard space for the wife flower garden around the house?
We are also debating whether we should start with the house or just have a cabin/small house for now while we build the house. what is you guys take on that
That is a tough question or questions. Just how much do you want to spend? We are going to build a retirement home this next year if it all goes correctly. We certainly would like to have a small builders cottage. In fact that was one reason I found John's web site CountryPlans.com. However the builders cottage sort of went under the bus when I/we decided we could not afford dumping money into that and then into a house as well. A travel trailer or fifth wheel trailer might very well serve the purpose very well. We own a old and I stress old fifth wheel trailer now and use it for a cabin in the summers on our property. Late fall or first snow we bring it out. We certainly want to up grade to a newer model. We also then could certainly winterize the house and head off to where-ever all those snowbirds as we call them around here go. (Arizona, New Mexico, Mexico.) They always seem to return tanned and lookin' good.
As far as yard and flower gardens that certainly is up to the individual. In the mountain area we are going to build at they serve as a fire brake as well as beautification. I certainly would not put in more lawn than I could mow in a timely manor. I think I would just get some graph paper and start plotting.
Welcome to the forum. I think the others have covered a lot of the major issues.
Depending on how it is placed I think you could have as much house as you want.
Just my 2 cents, I like to be back as far away from anybody as I can get. Houses sitting next to the road don't make a bit of sense to me.
Looking again at your lot though, it is pretty deep so there would be plenty of room for a back yard even if you were somewhere midway back.
Thank you guys and thanks to John for this website.
Now that those are out of the way, here are my new questions/issues
The biggest confusion is that I have between crawlspace, basement and piers is the sublayer floor.
Sure a basement is the ideal solution since there are more square footage and can be used for storage but to me it's the safest solution to my fear
I fear that without a basement or a crawlspace the sublayer is exposed to the elements and it will bring in cold air, and will decompose faster etc.
The crawl space solves these with a vapor barrier but if considering a crawlspace, why not consider a basement? A basemen is basically a deeper crawlspace. It is designed the same except for deeper walls.
So, I am considering a 30x40 to get three bedrooms. What do you guys think? Is that possible? There should be 1 master bedroom with a master bath and two kids size rooms. The kids will basically have twin size beds attached to the wall. There will be a second bathroom, a kitchen, great room and a fireplace if I decided to.
If I do get a basement, I am thinking to finish the subfloor and cover it with plastic. It might have to be like that for a year or so until I can save enough for framing and a roof. In the mean time I can probably live out of the basement. Well, not full time living, just weekends.
I know basements are normally all the way down but if i decided to get one, I will like to have it half and half for larger windows and to walk out.
If I get time today, I will call the town to find out whether I can build before a septic and well since a percent test was already done.
Glenn, I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't like road side houses either. It's dangerous and it looks like city etc.
Rick91351, you are absolutely right about the additional expense. I am also considering having one of those metal shed and have a tent to camp in.
Basements are another option but they do have their drawbacks. First they require you to go deeper this adds more materials to the cost of the building. Also they require a full excavation. This requires a lot more work and cost. Also the deeper you go, there is more weight of the earth pressing against the walls with no counter pressure on the other side. So the walls have to be thicker with more rebar adding more to the cost. I believe there are guidelines in the code, but I can't find them. Also in NY I believe they are required to be insulated. This means more rigid foam insulation which is expensive. I believe that would be required for both the floor of the basement and the walls. Plus the cost of a poured concrete floor. I believe additionally by code you have to waterproof coat the walls or you can still have the same moisture and humidity issues in a basement. I do in mine. So while they can add to the square footage, it can be cheaper and easier to build up or out than down. All other options have drawbacks too. It is for you to decide what is best for you.
The "I believe" sections of the paragraph were from a cursory reading of the building code and county guidelines. I gave up on the option at the point of much more work and cost in the beginning part.
What will be the best foundation type which is both cost effective and has less drawback?
I have a open plot, I don't need to excavate.
If I were to choose pier foundation, how can I protect my sub floor?
Prevent uphill water and roof runoff from running under your house by proper significant grading away from the house, and ditching uphill as necessary.
If you have to follow the procedures prescribed in the NYS building codes you most likely will find it expedient to use a full perimeter foundation for a crawl space and not to try for pier and beam. Pier and beam would most likely need an engineers stamp to be approved for a build under code jurisdiction. None of the building codes make mention of pier and beam house foundations to my knowledge. It could be possible to do a raised floor type using beams supported on block piers, but even that would most likely call for a full perimeter footing with rebar, rebar tie ins to the columns, etc.
Check locally to be sure what is permitted or wanted before getting too deep into the planning process. Of course if the are no building codes present then you are the decision maker. It never hurts to base structural on code as code is minimal practice.
I agree with Don on the reading of the code. I did not see any specific mention of post and pier foundations. IIRC, there is a mention of them for center beams, but I can't remember the specific code off the top of my head. I have seen some approved, but the code officer was probably already familiar with them. Maybe they had a stamp. Drive around and see what others are currently doing and call the local building department and ask. If they were not, I don't think there is any specific provision in the code to point to.
The NY ICC Code on foundations can be found here:
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/st/b400v07/st_ny_st_b400v07_4_section.htm
There is a requirement that all foundations with habitable space (basement) require damp proofing.
Upon further reading there are provisions for wood posts in foundations and permanent wood foundations with the language "shall be designed and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code" I wonder if any of that language could be used to support an argument for post and pier?
Other types are ICF's, FPSF, and permanent wood foundations. All types have their own costs, benefits, and uses.
When I did my place, I let the septic and well dictate the location of the house. "Where would you like it?" the environmental engineer asked. "Wherever it is going to be cheapest" was my response. He and the excavator had some excellent advice on where best to put it and the cabin - they knew the area and the terrain a lot better than I did.
I compromised between basement and pier by going crawlspace with a ratslab. Dry, sealed, good for resale, adequate for storage, and about 25% cheaper than a basement.
I also considered solar, but it can get expensive. In the end, it was a whole lot cheaper to tie into the grid. I'd put panel in after I'm done and do net metering to offset the cost.
Quote from: Squirl on March 08, 2011, 03:56:02 PM
I agree with Don on the reading of the code. I did not see any specific mention of post and pier foundations. IIRC, there is a mention of them for center beams, but I can't remember the specific code off the top of my head. I have seen some approved, but the code officer was probably already familiar with them. Maybe they had a stamp. Drive around and see what others are currently doing and call the local building department and ask. If they were not, I don't think there is any specific provision in the code to point to.
The NY ICC Code on foundations can be found here:
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/st/b400v07/st_ny_st_b400v07_4_section.htm
There is a requirement that all foundations with habitable space (basement) require damp proofing.
Upon further reading there are provisions for wood posts in foundations and permanent wood foundations with the language "shall be designed and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code" I wonder if any of that language could be used to support an argument for post and pier?
Other types are ICF's, FPSF, and permanent wood foundations. All types have their own costs, benefits, and uses.
The reason the prescriptive code defaults to continuous footings and full perimeter foundation walls is that they can deliver lateral (wind, seismic) loads to the ground safely. The hose is pushing sideways on the foundation and the foundation is braced by the panels that make up the walls, whether they are poured, block, ICF or treated wood walls. So the argument cannot be made from that standpoint that a pier and beam foundation is in that same group. It requires bracing either from the soil, enter geotech engineer, or from some form of knee bracing, structural engineer.
If the site is good for a daylight basement I think they are a good value. I've mentioned them before, Superior Walls make a pretty nice basement or wall for that matter, already waterproofed, insulated and studded out. They can have windows and door openings cast in. The footing is a gravel trench, much like a permanent wood foundation. The slab is poured after the panels are craned into place. I've done 2 with insulation under the slab and radiant heat in the pour. Attic trusses on top and the upper floor is done.
After a little research, I figured that a basement might be a little too expensive at this time.
I called the code enforcement office and got the following answered.
1. Pier and beam foundation are allowed.
2. Whatever the foundation, it needs to be 48" deep to pass the frost barrier and at least 8" thick for concrete
3. If Pier and Beam is used without pressure treated wood, it needs to be at least 18" above ground.
4. Piers are recommended to be at least 8' to 10' apart
Now that you guys helped me figured that out, how do I calculate the size of the house?
I have seen ppl with 16.5' house, why didn't they do 15' or 20'?
PS. I am really happy I found this site with lots of great help in it...Thanks guys
When you do a pier foundation you can put down a vapor barrier over the soil and skirt the outside to have the same critter and moisture control you would have with a crawlspace. (It is harder to emulate a sealed crawlspace.)
The insulation is between the joists and an air barrier will be on the bottom of the joists so the floor is insulated. You can vary the house width but in my plans they are even (ie: 20'). With this you can get 20' long material and cut them to size to match 20' with the rim joists. (You want to cut your standard length stock rather than rely on every board being cut just right at the mill.)
Weird, the charts seem to say you can get away with 6" poured foundation walls. Maybe they have a greater restriction in your area.
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_4_sec004_par001.htm
I could see 8" for a pier, but it seems a little extra than needed for a crawl space, but I'm not your code department.
Also the 8-10 ft is Minimum not Maximum? Spacing that far is difficult to do with dimensional lumber for the beams to pass code. More piers means more places for the load to be carried, I can't imagine why they would suggest less.
Sorry, that was my mistake. IT IS, 8' maximum.
The thickness for the concrete is a recommendation.
Thanks. That sound about right and my understanding of the code and what I have seen other build. From the same NY code guide I frequently link to here is the span sizing chart for beams and headers:
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/st/b400v07/st_ny_st_b400v07_5_sec002_par013.htm
Most of upstate NY has a snow load requirement of 40-50 lbs. The 50lb column would be on the safe side. IIRC 70 lbs for Adirondacks.
I try not to rationalize or comprehend why some buildings I see are built how they are. Many of the houses here are built with areas that are divisible by 4, 8, 10, or 12 because most dimensional lumber fits that, so as not to waste as much materials ($$$)
What do you guys think about building this house plan?
http://www.houseplans.com/930-square-feet-2-bedroom-1-bathroom-Contemporary-House-Plans-1-garage-(32966) (http://www.houseplans.com/930-square-feet-2-bedroom-1-bathroom-Contemporary-House-Plans-1-garage-(32966))
Lots of windows takes it out of the realm of knocking together some sticks and calling it done. I think I see a reflection of an engineer in one of the windows. ;)
Neat idea how they've used brick & you can park your car underneath but I totally do not like the style of the house - reminds me too much of mobile homes but hey, that's what I see the new designers using - all the modern apts, city houses, buildings... even Bill Clinton's library looks like a big mobile home - as far as I'm concerned, not very imaginative.
But what do I know, I'm just a cave dweller c*
That will be an expensive house with lots of steel beams, moment frames, and custom engineering. Not a candidate for an owner-builder project (with the possible exception of Glenn!)
I could do it with scrap I have collected, but likely I might forget to ask for approval..... [waiting]
By the looks of the picture the floor free spans 25-30 ft. That is impossible to do with standard dimensional lumber. That would have to be all steel or engineered trusses. Those widows look like they would cost more than some of the cabins here. Whoever builds this has a lot deeper pockets than me.
How about this one?
The idea here is to have a raised pier to use as storage, open garage/parking and possible a kitchen. This is how houses are in South America.
The problem is, with snow and high winds, I am not sure if this will be permitted or practical.
http://www.houseplans.com/841-square-feet-2-bedroom-1-bathroom-Beach-home-plans-0-garage-(31448) (http://www.houseplans.com/841-square-feet-2-bedroom-1-bathroom-Beach-home-plans-0-garage-(31448))
Anything can be done with an engineer.
Whether or not it could be owner built is another matter. That one is better. From the front at least you can see how the load from a ridge beam can go straight down to the main floor level. Looks like the load can then be transferred down to center columns and footings. But there's that engineer guy with his hand out again. Nothing against engineers, they earn what they do and know stuff the average owner builder has no clue about.
If you read through the IRC anything you see there can be done with no engineer in many places. Some places have governed themselves to the point an engineer is needed for approval of any building plans. But unless you live in one of those places if the IRC shows a method you can do it yourself. If it is not in the IRC you can't do it on your own, without an engineers approval; things like houses on stilts and so on.
Why do I need an engineer?
The code officer said that if its less than 1500 Sf and cost less than 20k, I do not need an engineer.
I like that house :) don't have any useful advice tho d*
It may cost more than 20K. (looks like it) Also, I don't know about your exact location, but the exact wording on the building permit for mine is "I want to obtain a permit for a Residential Home Under 1,500 Square Feet. What do I need to apply for my permit?**Detailed structural plans, lumber size and spacing, labeling of all rooms.""** Code Official reserves the right to require engineered stamped plans for all projects." This is the catchall legal compliance so that people can't go and try and build an extremely complicated, experimental, or anything they aren't readily familiar with. Most jurisdictions have this. The last design might comport to NY ICC guidelines. The height of those piers does not look it, but nothing stops you from spending $640 to find out. Also the 5 ft of unsupported deck off the front doesn't look it either. The chimney design looks like it might not be standard too. It has vaulted ceilings for each side, which would require a truss or ridge beam. Either of these would require a engineer stamp of them individually or the plan as a whole. It depends on your inspector. If it they do flag it, you could probably get a quote from a local engineer how much it would be for them to certify the plans. The picture of two Ferrari's and a BMW roadster under the house looks like they are targeting a market that wouldn't care about hiring an engineer and builder
From their own website.
In some regions, there is a second step you will need to take to insure your house plans are in compliance with local codes. Some areas of North America have very strict engineering requirements. Examples of this would be, but not limited to, earthquake-prone areas of California and the Pacific Coast, hurricane risk areas of the Florida, Gulf & Carolina Coasts. New York, New Jersey, Nevada, and parts of Illinois require review by a local professional as well. If you are building in these areas, it is most likely you will need to hire a state licensed structural engineer to analyze the design and provide additional drawings and calculations required by your building department. If you aren't sure, building departments typically have a handout they will give you listing all of the items they require to submit for and obtain a building permit.
Additionally, stock plans do not have a professional stamp attached. If your building department requires one, they will only accept a stamp from a professional licensed in the state where you plan to build. In this case, you will need to take your house plans to a local engineer or architect for review and stamping. In addition, plans which are used to construct homes in Nevada are required to be drawn by a licensed Nevada architect. All house plans from Houseplans.com are designed to conform to the local codes when and where the original house was constructed.
Just did a quick look through of that website they have 1000 plans under 1000 sq. ft. Like this one.
http://www.houseplans.com/213-square-feet-1-bedroom-1-bathroom-Cottage-house-plans-0-garage-(36350) (http://www.houseplans.com/213-square-feet-1-bedroom-1-bathroom-Cottage-house-plans-0-garage-(36350)))
Look familiar? They look a little like the little house plans. And what a steal only $2500.
Quote from: Net_Eng on March 18, 2011, 02:57:25 PM
Why do I need an engineer?
The code officer said that if its less than 1500 Sf and cost less than 20k, I do not need an engineer.
My thoughts are thus: Tall stilty things are not the usual run of the mill projects. As soon as it is up off the ground a ways, in my opinion, it is a whole new ball game and one most of us have played in. The elevated platform like that needs to be sturdy thing to deal with potential wind forces. Your ability might be superior to some others, I have no idea. I've seen a number of scary home builds that were close to the ground, only a few feet off the ground, to make me think that professional engineering advice could be very valuable in building something like an entire house elevated some 8 to 9 feet in the air.
Maybe it's just me and that is just my opinion.
The under 1500 sq ft and under $20K.... just how complete does it have to be for that $20K? And what gets included in that? I think our cabin came in complete with appliances but no furniture at $46 a sq ft. It was 470 sq ft, around $21-22K
When you're building something that isn't exactly 'tried and true', I see 3 distinct possible scenarios.
1. You hire an engineer. He tells you how to build it so it will last. This costs money.
2. You don't hire the engineer, but go overkill on the materials (look at an early railway trestle for example). It will last. But it costs a lot of money.
3. You don't hire an engineer, and underestimate the forces involved in critical locations. It won't last. It costs you money in the end because it falls over.
Code may not require an engineer's stamp, but they're acting on assumptions that you're going to build something that is tried and true.
What do you guys think about a 30' x 30' and raised 3' from the ground with concrete piers?
What are some of the materials (lumber, Joists and metal roofing) limitations I could run into?
I am working on a sketch and will share later
Three foot piers, of any material, will need to be extremely well braced if three feet high and each sitting on its own footing pad. At that height I would not want to depend on most soils to prevent lateral or rotating movements. The way to think/look at this is to ask, what will hold each pier in the proper place and vertical if the earth turns to mush?
If a continuous perimeter footing was poured with provision for rebar tieing the footing and piers together than the concrete piers might work well. That is done in the raised floor method. A search should turn up a topic or link or two on the forum.
What will be a recommended height using concrete piers? My greatest fear is serviceability and protection from the ground.
Whatever I do, it had to be 4' down to pass the frost barrier. If I have to do a footing, I better do a crawlspace. If I have to do a crawlspace, I will be better off with a split level basement. The problem with footing/crawlspace/basement is money/money/money but if that is best for me.... well I have no other choice.
I'm not an engineer and I tend to be conservative. I can't recall ever seeing a recommended ratio of above and below ground for piers. That may be cause there are simply too many variables.
I doubt it matters what the pier is made from as far as any ability to resist lateral slipping or tilting (rotating about some point below the surface). Concrete may have a longer life than wood in some places but that's about it. My opinion.
I built our 16x30 cabin on ten 6x6 PT piers. The footings are 44 to 46 inches deep. The piers only protrude 12 inches above ground. That is a ratio I am comfortable with, but I have no scientific data to back up the decision. The soil is sandy, gravely with good drainage. I also have plans to add some PT lumber and plywood panel bracing across the piers at the east and west ends as well as between some of the piers on the north and south sides. Why? There are no signs of any issues; the concerns are sprouting from my mind and more reading that I've done. Or I must be becoming more conservative as I age.
At this point I'm not certain what I would do if building something larger. For one thing at the same location I'd have more slope to deal with if making it wider and do not feel comfortable with more pier sticking out above ground.
So, I think we have different understanding of "footings". I interpret it as a continuous wall 4' down, the same size of the building... like a crawl space. If I understand your reply, it doesn't matter if its continuous or not.
Here is what my plans were:
1. A series of 4' hole in the ground using sonotubes and their extended bottom.
2. These sonotubes will be 7 feet tall, 8" wide with a 4 rebar extending the full length
3. At the top center of the pier/footing, I will have a bolt which is tied to the rebar and extend about 3" which will secure the sub-floor to the pier/footings.
Quote from: Net_Eng on March 23, 2011, 07:52:33 PM
At the top center of the pier/footing, I will have a bolt which is tied to the rebar and extend about 3" which will secure the sub-floor to the pier/footings.
But what keeps the pier from tilting if some combination or wind, water and some other natural forces combine to push on the walls of the house. The bolt(s) connecting the pier top to the beam does not offer much in the way of resisting rotational forces.
A footing as used with the average pier and beam builder is a square or round concrete pad (poured in place or precast) placed down at/below frost level. Sixteen to twenty inch square or diameter, depending on soil. A pier or post placed on top of one of those has little to no inherent stability. They depend in large on the soil preventing lateral or rotational movement. When see that someone is wanting to build on piers I automatically think of one pier, one footing pad. If that is not what you meant, I stand corrected and apologize.
A continuous footing or steel reinforced poured concrete goes all around the perimeter, with bent rebar securing around the corner. Additional rebar can be placed with legs protruding upwards, ready to receive a poured concrete column or a pier built from concrete blocks, filled with concrete and rebar. This makes for a more stable foundation using piers than the above with each pier independent of the other.
It does matter if it is continuous or not, continuous is better. Sometimes, something like I built can get away with what I did. I know more now than I did when I started out. Like I said I plan on some additions in the form of what amount to braced panels. I feel, and again point out I am not an engineer, but I feel that any piers much taller than mine require better bracing than what is commonly seen.
A couple suggestions from Don_P http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9264.msg119918#msg119918 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9264.msg119918#msg119918)
or this one http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6189.msg85537#msg85537 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6189.msg85537#msg85537)
One could probably get away without the brick curtain wall but panels at least at the corners would add lateral movement resistance.
(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/djmbucket/construction%20oddnends/rotationalforces.jpg)
That is what I mean by a rotating force. The pier will not likely hinge on the very bottom end, but would move, rotate, around some point below ground, unless there is something serious built in to resist that movement, if/when the ground becomes too set, big winds blow, maybe the ground shakes a little.... If all the bottom ends of the piers were locked into a full concrete perimeter footing it becomes much more difficult for rotating or tilting to occur.
As pictured that is lengthwise down the long side of the building. The same thing could happen across the width, maybe even more so as that side of the building is longer. In the case of a square building it's even steven.
This is the sort of thing I'd like to hear a licensed PE comment on.
Would something like this work?
http://www.sonotube.com/products/sonotubeconcreteforms/tubebase.aspx (http://www.sonotube.com/products/sonotubeconcreteforms/tubebase.aspx)
Those probably better than a plain tube on a normal poured/cast footing. .... but read installation tip number 8....
Sonotube form and TubeBase footing form combined cannot exceed/extend 24" or more above grade/ground.
Reading further they warn about proper bracing if taller than 24".... to exceed/extend 24" above ground/grade when pouring concrete, the Sonotube form MUST be braced to prevent movement of Sonotube form while the concrete is curing. (Conventional methods: Strapping or 2X materials w/stakes; wooden collar; frame with side braces)
So much depends on the soil. That is why the IRC does not include things like these as prescriptive solutions. ???
What costs more, an engineer to look and advise, a set of tubes and feet, a poured perimeter with tied in piers/columns, fixing something that didn't work out? ??? Sorry I don't know the answer for certain. The tube bases would be better than something else I'm sure. But again, I'm not a PE.
So I am guessing you are recommending something like this http://www.cabinstartup.com/index.php?p=196&album=1&gallery=1 (http://www.cabinstartup.com/index.php?p=196&album=1&gallery=1)
Here is a cost analysis he did for the different foundation types. http://www.cabinstartup.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Cost-Estimate-Basement-vs-Crawl-Space-vs-Concrete-Slab.pdf (http://www.cabinstartup.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Cost-Estimate-Basement-vs-Crawl-Space-vs-Concrete-Slab.pdf)
I am thinking that the the pier type foundation may not work for me even if I drop it to 24", what do you guys think.
PS. Do not hesitate to correct me if I am wrong. I rather have your appropriate comments rather than paying for it later.
MountainDon, I really appreciate your comments and knowledge. Thank you very much.
You got it!
2ft is a pretty decent height for a crawl space. If you want more height what I have seen many other do around here is they use PT posts to get little taller. It is easy to add wood bracing to the wooden post to the foundation. You are not in a heavy seismic activity area or a heavy wind area that I know of. If you are not building a tall building, this should greatly decrease the lateral force on the piers. The larger the footing and the more the posts, the less susceptible to rotating force. As I said in the beginning of the thread all options have drawbacks. While post and pier is the least expensive foundation design, it is the most susceptible to shifting. Good soil, drainage, and depth can be more important than the actual type though. Without those three things any foundation can fail.
What do you guys think about this Dug's foundation? Could he have gotten away without the ties?
This is what my new foundation design will look like. It will be a 24"X24" base, 10" concrete post and 24" above ground on the lower side. the higher side will be about 18" above. Let me know what you guys think.
http://www.remodeling-sanantonio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/pier-and-beam-foundation.png (http://www.remodeling-sanantonio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/pier-and-beam-foundation.png)