Hi John,
Looking at the 14x24 Nash Cabin in the gallery. They state that 10ft walls were built. Does this change anything else in the plans if you extend the walls to 10ft? I like the idea of the extra loft headroom.
Thanks!
Looking at the early framing pictures of the Nash cabin (http://www.countryplans.com/nash.html) (near the bottom), you can see that the loft floor is not only attached to the 10' sidewall studs, but has an internal centerline beam supporting 1/2 the loft load and carrying this load to a post in the center of the cabin. This is different than the simple loft of the Little House plans where the loft joists sit on top of the wall plates.
If you did 2x6 wall framing you could use the notched in ledger used in the 20' wide 1-1/2 story cottage (http://www.jshow.com/y2k/listings/50.html) and run the loft joists full span to the outside walls thus eliminating the center post. You cannot notch a 2x4 wall for a 2x ledger to carry a loft joist (but you can do a 1x ledger). Alternatively you could attach a 2x ledger to a 2x4 wall with lag screws and either have the joists go over the top or sit in hangers.
Hi John,
Thanks for the reply. My apologies for the newbie questions. :D
I want to go with the 2x4 framing to stick as close to the plans as possible. So I think I will op for the 2x(?) ledger attached to the 2x4 wall. If I understand you correctly, I can build the ledger and then build the loft per the plans? (ie, without the centerline beam). Is there an image that you could direct me to that shows how this might look?
Thanks for your help and patience!
Changing to the 2x6 walls won't change much except take away 4 inches of interior space. More insulation might be a plus too. Depends upon use :-/
Thanks MD.
So what does the notched in ledger on the 20' wide 1-1/2 story cottage look like? I purchased the LH plans.
Again, sorry if these questions are lame. I picked up the recommended framing book today. ::) Just trying to get things together for kickoff on Thurs.
Here's an example for ya', courtesy of Paul, aka PEG
http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1144724922/0
don't worry about some of the flaming controversy further into the post, it's just blather. This is done all the time.
Thanks MD (and PEG),
I do remember seeing this thread. I think that at my skill level (and existing tool level :D ) I will stick to the 2x ledger with lag screws. 2x what is recommended for the ledger is my next question ;D.
Thanks so much for your help. I'm really excited - although I'm backing off of my expectation of getting the external framing done in a weekend. Now I'm shooting for four walls on a foundation :D!
Looks like PEG let in a 2x6 in the tutorial.
Note that if you don't do the let in you have a couple of issues to deal with. The 2 x 6 will be sticking into your room. The lags alone will be less strong - about 450+ lbs each holding strength as I recall. Holes between joists may be harder to seal.
That said, others have successfully lagged the ledger on. IMO the let in job is a lot cleaner looking. The router does a cleaner job but you can do it with the Skilsaw, a hammer and a chisel. In absence of a chisel you can make the multiple kerfs as PEG showed and knock out the pieces with the claw of the hammer.
You could try it on a practice piece to develop your skills... or you could just lag it on as you wish. These are just suggestions. :)
Sorry for degrading his methods, PEG. :-/ :)
Hey Glenn,
Thanks for the feedback. I think that I would still feel more comfortable using a lag screw.
Any thoughts on what size ledger should be used if I stick to the 2x4 framing?
Please keep the ideas coming! :D
2x6 would give good spacing on 3 screws.
I agree with Glen here. The let in ledgerboard is really easy to do. And it will look A LOT better when you are finishing the cabin off.
One thing I have learned in building my cabin is that you need to look into the future as far as finishing things off, instead of just "getting things done" right away. Just some advice, that is all!
Good luck!
Thanks again for the feedback Glenn/John_M. - point well taken!
Just to be devil's advocate... (I'm doing the let in ledger - I practiced on my shed's rafters. Using the same technique to cut the rafter so as to let in the outrigger (?? I think that is the right name)). If you use reasonable nice wood, the ledger will just look like trim - think rustic crown molding. Or if you use joist hangers and sheetrock (not my thing) you will have a good surface to attach the ceiling to under the loft.
Glen - if you were concerned about the lag screw weight, could you run the joist on top of the lag bolted ledger and then next to the stud and through-bolt the joist to the stud?
Hey M&D,
Thanks for the input. This will not be a primary residence for me. Mainly a hunting cabin in the fall and a place for the family weekend getaways in the spring and summer. Not really concerned about the ledger-look. ;)
That being said, you made me think :-/ :
Glen - could I do what M&D suggest? Joist on top next to stud and attach to stud? Sounds doable. But will it be safe.
Also, in the LH plans where it indicates an open area for the kitchen. I'd like to close it off for a bedroom. Would the framed out walls beneath the loft add support?
Thanks!!!!!!
Not the lag screw weight, but the amount of weight the lag screw can support.
In round numbers without making me think too hard, wood can support about 1000 lbs per square inch -- allowable fiber stress -- or the allowable pressure on the wood. A 1/2 inch lag screw inserted into the wood will have a certain amount of it holding but it will also have the outside inch or so pushing down on the wood below. Figure if one inch long x 1/2 inch wide is pishing down then that is about 1/2 square inch or 500 lbs support load allowed. This is just rule of thumb stuff I go by to figure loads in my head -gathered here and various places. 3 screws spread a bit and predrilled so as not to split the wood could support near 1500 lbs (actually less - I rounded my rule of thumb figures).
Saying you have a 20 foot wide house - joists on 24" centers - load 40 lbs per square foot, (may not be the right load but close enough for this exercise) - each joist is responsible for 40 square feet of floor - 20 x 2' - so 1/2 load to each side = 10x2'x40lbs=800 lbs plus dead load of about 5 lbs psf so say 900 lbs. 3 screws are good for about 12 to 1300 lbs in actuality -- what would happen if overloaded? Probably not total failure but maybe split studs - loose joists - creaking - uneasy feelings walking over it. It may not even go that far considering that things may be stronger than what it is calculated at for failure but could be pushing it.
I'm sure John uses much better numbers than I do but this should give you an idea of the logic behind the reason the let in is better.
...and rereading your post - yes - through bolting is stronger - from my experience of working with engineers on my jobs -- I am not an authority. :)
Through bolting the joists to the wall studs as well as having a lag screwed ledger would add definite strength. Keep the bolts through the joists in the lower 2/3 width for best results.
Depending on how you plan to finish the interior walls you could also add a jack stud under the ledger to assist. ?? :-/
Glenn, good "round" numbers. :)
Anything you add by way of attachment to the stud will add strength - even nailing. I don't know the figures.
Ken Kern stated -from memory that a 16d nail plain held around 90 lbs but it seems a ring shank or screw nail was more like up to 900 lbs - maybe withdrawal strength -- but - you can't get the shear strength if the nail doesn't hold.
The walls under the loft could add strength but would transfer the load down to the bottom floor which is only supported at the sides -- still all in all one thing stiffens another until it all becomes one strong mass. Engineers don't always cnsider some of the added strengths of interior walls but their addition of strength cannot be denied.
Not to belabor the point, BUT if you do go the lag screw route do be certain to drill the proper shank size hole in the ledger with the appropriate sized pilot hole in the stud. Not drilling pilot holes in all but the wettest of lumber will almost always lead to a few splits here and there. And don't overtighten.
Quote
Glenn, good "round" numbers. :)
Thanks, Don. Coming from you, that means a lot to me. ;D
:)
BTW, I don't think there are any published tables of shear strengths for lag screws. Lags are generally ungraded unlike hex head bolts with their varied head markings.
A figure of approximately 60% of the tensile strength would be a point to calculate from for a standard carbob steel screw/bolt. And if I were calculating/estimating lag screw shears I'd use the "minor" dimension, the smaller dimension of the lag between the threads just below the unthreaded shank area. If that's clear? :-/
JMO
Pumpkin hour, G'nite
May not be - I round that out too --- steel tensile strength about 50000 psi. Figure the cross sectional area of the screw at that rate -- or another method -- how many 1/2 inch screws will fit into an inch - 4 -- but realizing that they are a bit undersized -no corners as they are round, drop it down a bit. 50k divided by 4 gives about 12.5 k dropped a bit to 10k so I estimate the tensile strength of the 1/2 inch lag to be 10000 lbs.
QuoteNot the lag screw weight, but the amount of weight the lag screw can support.
;) That's what I meant. ;D
Both lag screw to hold up the ledger and through bolt into the stud. Through bolt if you are concerned about splitting the ledger with the weight. Just to be clear you wouldn't want to skip the ledger and just through bolt to the stud - especially if you are spacing your joists greater than 24" (doubling them every 4' is an option in the 1.5 story loft plans).
I've had a Consolidated Dutchwest (Now Vermont Castings) catalytic stove for 20 years. I bought the smallest one they had and it heats my ~1800 sq. ft. house very nicely. Great stove. The only problem I ever had was wrestling it out of the pickup truck and into the house by myself.
:)
Thanks everyone for your replies and great insights!!!
I'm going with:
2x8 joist @ 24"o/c per the plans
2x6 ledger using 3 lag screws (with pre-drilled shank size hole)
through bolts to wall studs (bolted through lower 2/3 of joist.)
Thanks!
Quote
2x6 ledger using 3 lag screws (with pre-drilled shank size hole)
PLUS pilot holes in the wall stud
And shaken not stirred ;D! Thanks MD!!!
Hello All,
I want to start framing walls this weekend. After reviewing the plans and the recommended framing book one thing is still unclear. I'm building a 14x24. If I'm using 10ft lumber for my top & bottom plates, how do I span the 14 (or 24) feet? How do you span the breaks? All of the instructions/images that I've come across show a solid wall plate. ???
Hope the question makes sense. Basic I know. Any help (and visuals!) would be greatly appreciated!
You have to order special one piece plates. The 24 foot ones will be expensive and hard to transport.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You "join" the the bottom plate pieces under a stud.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/construction/wall-section-03.jpg)
Ditto for the top plates, only over a stud.
The above illustration shows building in two sections, raising separately and nailing the "joiner" stud into the wall when vertical. You can assemble the 14 foot ends flat on the deck and raise it as a unit if you have helpers.
Quote from: MountainDon on September 25, 2007, 12:26:10 AM
Depending on how you plan to finish the interior walls you could also add a jack stud under the ledger to assist. ?? :-
Glenn, good "round" numbers. :)
Glenn, what were you refering to when you said "depending on how you plan to finish the interior walls..."
in conjunction with using jack studs?
That was me...
What was I alluding to? Hmmm. Well adding jack studs under the ledger would increase the wall thickness, which may not have been desired. That have been the reason to go with 2x4 studs and not 2x6 in the first place. ??? If I had some other thought it escapes my brain at present. :-[ d*
So sorry, MountainDon....hope that didn't rise to the level of name calling!
My question, in part comes from a series of pics on this site.
In them, I saw 2 x 6 studs with joists attached by doubling the stud, almost. The two studs were side by side, but one was short.
Each end of the loft joists rested on the top of that "short stud". So, nothing stuck out into the room, there were no joist hangers, no ledger board, and the "jack stud"(?) was on the side of the real stud, and gave the loft joist support all the way from the floor.
Golly, I hope that made sense.
Anyway, it looked like a potential option to me, as long as it doesn't foul up the wall finishing.
Since they were just pics, I'm not certain how the joists were attached to the stud(s).
Your word picture is understandable. The main thing I don't like about that method is it places another stud in the wall in place of insulation. Solid wood is not as good of an insulator as fiberglass and other insulation.
2X6 studs with a let in ledger still makes a lot of sense.
But those are simply my opinions, my 'druthers.
I always appreciate the "opinions" on this forum. There are lots of experienced (OJT or just "hard knocks") opinions here. When one knows almost nothing about building (like me), the reasoning behind a particular technique is of great value. The plans have already paid for themselves, and the the foundation pads are still in my truck.
AAAAAAHHHHHHHAAAAAA! Makes sense. Thanks MD. Ever on the case! ;D
p.s. - I followed the advice of one of the many posters on the forum and today picked up a $320 custom double hung window for $90 in the clearance section at HD! Thanks everyone for being such a great resource!
Great deal on the window, George.
Wouldn't it be great if we could get a friend to order a whole bunch of custom windows and then not need them and then we just happen to walk by as they are marking them down and say....
"...hey, those would be perfect for my cabin!!" [hungry]
Would be nice. The problem with that is that HD, Lowe's and anywhere else I've ordered a special size/material/finish/whatever window/door require a deposit on the special order. Non refundable unless they make an error on the order.
Hello All,
Glad to see the gang's still here! ;D Hope everyone is enjoying the final throws of Summer.
Gearing up to start working again. Barring a change in work schedule, I will get some time in next month.
So here is the first of many questions (I'll be more organized as I get closer to the date . . . promise ::) ). In this thread we chatted about bracing the loft. I ran across the following - http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4394.0 - which looks pretty sturdy to me. It also looks like something I could do :P. What are your thoughts about using this for the 14x24 loft?
Thanks so much! I'll be checking in.
p.s. Considerations is my hero! ;D
Any thoughts here? ??? Thanks!
No reason that wouldn't work, George. We'll be watching as you progress.
Don is right. There are no published shear tables for lag screws.
http://www.portlandbolt.com/faqs/bolt-shear-strength-considerations
There are published numbers for Ledgerlok deck srews (self-tapping)
Min single shear loads in h/f or higher 2x lumber (such as ledger board)
ledgerlok deck screw = 190 lbs See at www.fastenmaster.com
I do have a note in my own files that a 1/2" lag can support 470 lbs in single shear which would seem to compare about right to the much skinnier Ledgerlok screw above. But, I have no source to point to for that number.
If you do use lags use large washers as well and cinch them tight.
Notched-in ledgers get away from all this uncertainty by directly bearing on the studs.
Awesome. Thanks John!
Here is a table for Seismic Design for lags. Maybe good for a clue anyway.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/lagtable.jpg)
from here - PDF
http://www.kineticsnoise.com/SeismicBook/pdfs/a7/a7.3%20-%20seismic%20design%20data%20for%20lag%20screws.pdf
Great find Glenn! [cool]
I copied that into my files. I think that is better information than I had.
I guess there is something published and you found it!!
I like the challenge-- and have developed pretty good search skills over the years. I'll copy it over to the reference -free stuff section.