I've about finished amending the plans and am working on the utilities.
I have agreed to use my carpentry tools and help a friend with his house (nail guns, compressor, generator, saws, sheetrock jacks, etc) in exchange for backhoe and posthole digger use.
He puts in piers for a living so he gets to do the foundation.
Here's the issue I'm dealing with now. I need a well. water is 250' down and I'm thinking about buying a Rockmaster tx450 http://www.rockmasterdrills.com/index.html (//www.rockmasterdrills.com/index.html) and drilling my own well and his.
Has anyone tried one and how did it do?
I drilled for 10 years, but I did cable tool drilling - percussion -
I never drilled with rotary but have been around the rigs a bit in the oil fields and in developing water wells.
The machine looks interesting. The concept looks good. I think you will find that the drilling rates are listed at a good average maximum and that it will depend a lot on the formation.
Do you know what you would be drilling through. Do you know anybody nearby who may have a copy of a well log to give you some insight as to what is down there?
Please keep us updated on this - thanks.
I'd have to look in my soils book to give you the exact makeup at each level Glen but...in a nutshell, clay and scattered granite but no bedrock. There is also some quartz. Deeper, blue marl.
I wonder if it would handle 500 feet??
It said limit is 450 but possibly a slight upgrade -or a bit bigger model could do it.
I do see this as being quite a bit of work but in the old days they even rotary drilled with a horse walking in circles.
I'm going to give an educated juess Don. 20 years ago I was doing the siding on a house and the well driller was using a machine like this. Being nosy, I talked a lot and got some information.
The company sort of says on their site, that it is good to 300 feet. That's due to the mud pump, If you upgraded the pump, I suspect you could drill to China with the machine.
My big worry is the construction of it. It looks a little frail but it also looks like it would hold up if you took it slow and easy. I plan to spend a lot of time withe the manufacturer on the phone next week. I sure would like some references other than the Peace Corps.
I just checked - the TX "450" is max depth advised for the unit. The 620 is rated at 620 feet at about twice the cost.
Maybe I need to build one of these for me. :)
... and then you could rent it out... :)
There you go. I have a place that it would be hard to get a rig into but one of these on a trailer on the Bush Hog could work anywhere. Mine is hardrock though.
I saw a small one like this an old oil field driller made once - it worked but was much smaller - 1/2 inch pipe drill stem. I think he whet about 200 feet with it into unconsolidated (but pretty hard) material.
That's one of the things I want to talk to them about. When I said they hinted...they make the following statement:
It excels when drilling deep wells over 100' to 300'.
Not quite sure what they mean.
I would gess that that small drill stem could start making a snakey hole if you weren't careful. One drillere I talked to mentioned using a guide about 20 feet up to keep the hole straight. One more thing to hang up though. I guess their pilot bit is pretty close to the size of the pipe to keep things straight.
Wow, what a small world. I worked in offshore oil industry for 20 years; 10 years wireline logging for Schlumberger and 10 years working in drilling (rotary). We did one hole that was 25,000 feet deep. Surface hole was 60" diameter, 24" casing at 10,000 and 8" casing on bottom. Had 450 degree F bottomhole temp.
That's a real hole, tony. :)
I worked in a small oil patch by Fresno, and followed a rig or two around the valley for a bit. I welded on well heads for the BOE - pitcher nipples - repaired mud pump valves - water legs - salt water lines - cut off well heads and shortened the casing as the ground subsided from pumping etc. I was the only welder in our area who could weld the heads on with no problem and test them to 10000 psi without a leak. An old welder gave me pointers on how to do it. Really cut down the learning curve. :)
One of the cooler jobs we did was to cut a traveling block out of the side of the derrick after the driller got a wobble going and threw it in there. Seems it was about 125 feet up if I remember right. We had to weld the bracing back in after we cut it loose.
QuoteWow, what a small world. I worked in offshore oil industry for 20 years; 10 years wireline logging for Schlumberger and 10 years working in drilling (rotary). We did one hole that was 25,000 feet deep. Surface hole was 60" diameter, 24" casing at 10,000 and 8" casing on bottom. Had 450 degree F bottomhole temp.
Could use it as a big oven if you had a elevator platform for it. :o
Dimitri
I had a long conversation with the manufacturer today.
The unit will do to a max of 450' because of the mudpump. You can upgrade the pump and go deeper. They only recommend going to 300' because below 300 the discharge slows considerably.
The pilot bit supplied will go through rock and granite unless it is a thick layer or there are lots of layers. Then they suggest the tricone bit.
They guarantee the unit for 2 years.
All in all, I was moderately impressed. I may buy one!
did you get the price of the tricone bit?
650.00 for a 6'" bit.
Can't believe there are so many 'oilees' in here!!! We used to joke that we'd tell our moms we were piano players in a house of ill repute...instead of working in the oil patch!
I'd go with the bigger tricone bit and the bigger mud pump. Reason being is that you need room in the hole to case the well especially if you plan to use a submersible pump. You will need to pull it on occasion and without a cased hole, it can cave in and you'll never get the pump out. Been there done that. Also, the good water is always deeper than expeced and you don't want to be drinking 'ground water' in my opinion, regardless of where you are located.
I'd drill down thru the water zone, case it with perforated pvc pipe, fill the bottom with gravel, drop in the pump and enjoy the cool fresh water!
Okie Bob
But, what do I know, I'm an 'oilee'.
Thanks Bob but the Tricone isn't any bigger. The standard reamer is 6".
I agree on deeper is better and use perf pipe. I was planning on using Sandscreen sections at 10 and 20 feet from the bottom. I might even go a 3rd section depending on where I first hit water.
By code, I have to grout to 50 feet to keep the grounf water out.
Standard casing here is schedule 40 PVC.
I assume if drilling a 6 inch hole as your well hole you will later use something like a 5 inch or so well casing and you will first install a 50 foot sealed conductor that is at least 6 1/2 inches or so in an 8 inch or so reamed hole in order that you can grout it into place and still leave a big enough hole to get your 6 inch drill through? This casing is for the sole purpose of keeping surface water out. At the top 50 feet you would have 2 pipes - one 6 1/2 inch conductor and one 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 inch casing to the bottom with screens.
I'm pretty sure you could center a 6 1/2 inch (standard pipe size -) pipe in an 8 inch hole with centering devices then grout it with bentonite pellets that are approved for pouring through water, and you would not have to use concrete grout. The bentonite will seal better than concrete. After the seal is set you would drill your 6 inch hole from the bottom of it down. This way makes a positive seal.
Some don't bother with a good seal like this and just haphazardly seal against the top 50 feet of casing. When I checked the well here at my house I found this to be the case with a failed seal - surface water running in-- and called the driller to come back and reseal it (in his own haphazard little way). This way may or may not seal it but is usually accepted by the health department - if they care to check -(may not care as long as they have your check).
I'm getting well drill burnout on this. I've called rockmaster a half dozen times with different questions and keep getting the same woman that sounds like she should be doing infomercials.
I was looking for a used system on ebay (even though I hate them worse than Walmart) and saw one of the Rockmasters. The fellow sells them new all the time. Called Rockmaster back to see if they would match their price and it turned out to be the owner that sells them. Wouldn't match their price either.
Talked to the state Geologist and he said there was some damn hard bedrock where I was going to dril and the tricone bit wouldn't cut very far. He also said I'd either find a fissure or hit water at less than 100 feet.
Not a real fun day so far!
I was wondering about the tricone bit because typically on oil rigs they have tons of weight on them to make them cut. I don't think this little rig will have enough weight to make the tricone cut something really hard. I think a down the hole hammer would be necessary for speed.
I've been reading about how the peace corps does it. They anchor the hell out of them like a circus tent and use the winch to add some pressure.
Watch out that it dosen't come up underneath you. These things tend to act like a snake if you add pressure.
We have a major big rotary drilling company here we call Crooked Hole Myers. They are famous for being able to drill "S" shaped holes that you have a hard time getting a pump into.
Still, I'm interested in learning all you can teach me about this if you do it. Just pointing out the possibilities.
You might also look for a used Cable tool rig. They are pretty easy to learn to run but still have their dangers. A fellow I heard of lost the back of his foot and another driller dropped his wife about 20 feet from the derrick. He used to hoist her up with a harness so she could put the bailer into the casing. That way he could use 20 foot joints of casing. My son got his arm ripped off above the wrist on one. They were able to put it back together and pretty fully functional by transferring 1/2 of the lower finger tendons to the top to bring his fingers back up and put a screw into his thumb joint to keep it straight. He was a competent driller - just a freak accident.
Quote
Still, I'm interested in learning all you can teach me about this if you do it. Just pointing out the possibilities.
Right now, I'd say it's a learning experience for us all Glen ;D
I wish I had access to the head. I'd build my own. I am a long time hobby blacksmith and muzzle loader builder and I am famous for overbuilding everything. My wife laughs when she talks about my sturdy construction.
After looking at all the pictures and specs.....none of those small units come up to my idea of STURDY. ;D ;D ;D
I'm there with you. It seems past the capability of the little rig but I was hoping for a miracle, although under the right conditions it seems like it could do a lot. Maybe I'm just too used to seeing the giant complicated rigs.
I was also a real blacksmith for about 6 months heating planter shoes and plowshares in a coal forge and beting them out with a drop hammer, along with any other repairs that came into the shop -- later I started my own welding shop but didn't do blacksmithing for others in general. Made a few of my own tools etc. though, but with oxy/acet rosebud.
Suspect you are correct about the tricone bit being a problem without a lot of weight on it.
In the oil patch we call them 'rock bits' made famous by none other than Howard Hughes. On an oil rig we use very heavy pipe called 'drill collars' right above the bit for the weight that helps keep the hole straight.
I assume what you guys are calling 'grout' is what I would call 'cement'? We 'cement' our surface pipe in and typically a lot deeper than you are talking. If you are only drilling 100 ft, I'd sure have my water tested OFTEN. Anything less than a couple of hundred feet is still groudwater to me and definatly not for drinking without constant testing.
And Glenn, you are correct about your pipe sizes. Your surface pipe has to be large enough ID so the bit will easily go thru it. With a pump big enough we would set our surface casing in place and then pump cement down the hole until it came out the back side of the pipe. We knew then that the surface pipe was completely sealed in place, let it dry and then come back in with the bit and drill to completion. Then drill a 'rat hole' after passing the production zone of about 50 feet or so.
I don't know if I would want to rely on this little rig you guys are looking at. But, I'm kind of screwy about the water I drink.
Okie Bob
Depends, BoB, Depends. Seals around here in most places are only required to be 20 feet and the average depth for drinking in the valley is about 250.
We had one about 115 feet deep down there but the water tasted like crap. :-? Not real crap -- just crappy. Very hard and didn't smell too good either.
We later drilled to about 400 for decent water - sometimes we got soft water but in that place we only got water that was a bit softer and no longer smelled like -- you know.
Guess I'm just a little paranoid Glenn. Anything less than a couple of hundred feet is just ground run off to me. I'm just real particular about what I drink. It better not only taste good, it better be real clear and have no smell at all and even then I want it tested for things I can't see or want to drink!
I even put a whole house carbon filter on the new house. I wouldn't even drink coffee made with the local water, carry 5 gallon bottles from town and that is sad.
Okie Bob
You are spoiling yourself, BoB. The human creature is much more resilient than that. :)
!00 feet from well to leach fields but if I remember correctly you only need 5 feet vertical separation from the bottom of the leach field to drinkable groundwater below. Yum. I wouldn't want to test it though. In other tests there was no detectable contamination from a outhouse after you were 10 feet away from it. The little bugs do their jobs. :)
(http://www.learntitle5.org/Module2/Stage2.GIF)
http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1133585177
That is true for some nice organic stuff contaminating our soil but, there are some very nasty chemicals a lot of people use that don't go away for many years and are NOT good to drink!
That's the stuff that scares me and I'm fearless!
Okie Bob
(Actually, it's you white men that are doing all the damage! Us natives would never do that!!)
Yutahay.
That may be true in some parts of the counbtry Bob, but here, 96 out of every 100 wells you see are 50 feet or less. The standard is a 50 footer for the well drillers.
The deep wells are for newer houses many of which have fairly small lots. You can drill a deep well 50 feet from the house and a shallow well needs to be 100 feet.
The health department did an extensive test several years ago of wells in the southern part of the state. Basically, ye only problems with shallow wells were in the ones that weren;t grouted properly and were getting surface water. Even then the big complaint was muddy looking water.
There were very few cases of contaminated wells (meaning harmful contamination).
On another note....
The Rockmaster is out. It appears that they have had some problems with the BBB and the attorney General.
I have been looking at the Deeprock rigs and I am impressed with what I see. Better built and have bbeen in business for over 20 years without a single complaint I can find. The people that run it were well drillers themselves. Some were oil drillers. They answer the phone and give straight answers. When I asked if the tricone bit would drill what I have....he said no. He put me in touch with a fellow named Mills in Texas, He refurbs oil drill bits and supplies them with a heavy pipe type collar to put the weight needed.
They were expensive but he told me he sells them for the Deeprock rigs in West Virginia and Virginia and had never had one come back or had anyone complain that it wouldn't drill the rock.
Good info Peter and more agrees with my thoughts. Keep us updated please.
BoB, around here there are areas in the valley that can be contaminated to a couple hundred feet. I can't blame you for not wanting to drink the palefaces water. Ho. :)