Running Plumbing

[rdpecken]

I'm looking on suggestions on where to run plumbing in our "liitle house" based stand-alone wash house.

We have built an 8'x10' shed on the post & pier foundation, with a shed roof.  This shed is for a shower, sink, and toilet.

We have run the sewer plumbing by attaching it under the floor joists, with the required slope.

I am kind of stuck on where to put the fresh water plumbing.  I would like to keep most of it inside the shed, to protect it from freezing to some degree.  The outside temperatures typically reach down into the teens in the coldest part of winter, and the daytime highs are typically in the 50's. We are off-grid, and could probably keep a small heat source going inside when we are visiting for short periods during the winter.  We could drain the lines each time we leave.

Can I notch the studs in one of the supporting walls to recess the pipes, or would that weaken the wall too much?  The same question applies for the ceiling rafters.

Another thought is to build a small runway along the bottom of the wall, but jutting out.  I've seen this in some older construction in hotels, etc.

The other option I see is mounting the pipes under the floor joists, and building a small enclosure to surround them and fill it with insulation, too.

Any other ideas?
Thanks...Randy

[glenn-k]

I would use aquapex-- insulate with the sleeves you can cut to length and slip over or just use fiberglass etc in ajoist or stud cavity.  Aquapex can be pulled into drilled holes similar to installing romex for wiring.  It is rated for both hot and cold.  You can buy their expander tool and sleeves or if you don't want to go to that expense, it works with compression fittings also.  There is a insert to put inside before you install the compression fitting.

There are many suppliers although they may require you to be certified or go through a plumber to get it.  It is accepted in many areas except some unions don't want the building departments to okay it as it saves way too much labor.  It has a great track record unlike some of the old mobile home plastic plumbing which had problems.

http://www.mid-americanenergy.com/aquapex.htm

[rdpecken]

Thanks, Glen.  That's cool stuff!
I like the idea of having runs without splices, along with the fact that it probably handles freezing pretty good because it can expand and contract.
Looks like the tool and 1 head would run about $150.  We have started on our 14'x24' cabin as well, so I guess we could justify it a little better with that use, too.  I'll see if I can find a source around here (or on the web).

Oh, and it will be quieter than copper when being pumped by our RV-type Shurflo pump!

[glenn-k]

Glad to recommend it.  No splices, no excess elbows,    very little pipe wrenching, no soldering.  I can say with certainty that you will like it as I used it in the underground cabin.  I bought the complete tool here and passed a little certification course for the local supplier.  Aquapex is cut with a cutter like used for PVC straight cuts (like a pruner ).  I completely plumbed my bathroom in about 3 hours.  It can be brought through concrete or soil without additional protection although codes will require a sleeve through the slab most likely.  I have never had a leak with it.  After you stretch the pipe you have about 10 seconds to put your pipe together in -then in about 60 seconds it's tight. You have to protect it from UV damage so any areas exposed to light must be wrapped with heavy tape, insulated or covered up.

It's rated 80 psi @200 degrees and says it will withstand freezing and thawing cycles better than any other tubing.  It is guaranteed 25 years in a certified installation.

If you have any questions, I'll do what I can to help.

Glenn

[DavidLeBlanc]

There are a couple of places where you can order PEX (with/without the O2 barrier required in some places and for some applications) on the internet.

http://www.radiantcompany.com
 is in New England.

This one is in Spokane, WA: much closer to Aridzona! : http://www.radiantdirect.com/index.php

Lastly, but not leastly, here's a LOT of info on PEX, installation tips and tools: http://www.radiantdesigninstitute.org/
(On this last site, you'll find info about different kinds of PEX - some "PEX' won't stand up to freezing at all!)

As it happens, all these sites offer relatively inexpensive solutions for radiant heat flooring, but PEX is used in that application too, especially for "flow through" systems that share domestic hot water service for heating.

[Dan]

PEX is also great stuff for replumbing old houses.  I made one run from my basement hookup to my second floor bathroom, up through an old gas line chase.  No worrying about leaking joints in the first floor walls.  The only drawback I can think of on a situation like yours is getting it to drain between visits.  Although it would withstand the freezing just fine, the next time you want to use it you would need to thaw it.  It is much easier to get solid pipe to slope downward consistently than pipe that comes coiled in a circle and likes to stay that way.

[Amanda_931]

The "old way" to get running water was to put some sort of tank in a loft or attic, pump water up to it daily, with a hand pump if necessary.

Then it's a straight shot down into your wash area--no pressure to speak of, but if you use biggish pipes (3/4" works) there's plenty of water.  And draining the system is EASY--open the tap.

If your pump house is the same place, this might be the simplest.

Hot water? can't use the demand heaters, but I've contemplated heating water in something like a turkey fryer and sending it up daily to a smaller and heavily insulated tank.

Friend of mine has an early 20th century book on farm water supplies that recommends this.

[John Raabe]

When I lived in Iran in my Peace Corps days, every house had a tank on the flat roof and a small electric pump (villages had hand pumps) that filled the tank periodically. It was gravity feed from there.

Today most powered well systems use pressure tanks to pump up the lines to normal flow expectations.

For water heating we had a small kerosene fired water heater we would light for baths and dish washing.  This ran off the same roof tank water source.

Rural America used range boilers (usually a 30 gallon tank) set behind and above the wood cook stove that thermosiphoned water through a heating coil in the firebox for wood heated hot water.

http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&iProductID=604

[Amanda_931]

Nice.  They also sell a dedicated water boiler--that looks like you have to be really careful with--it's not pressure tested,  text didn't mention safety valves, etc.

These guys swear that this jobbie will heat (up to) 40 gallons with a pound of propane and a rechargeable 6v battery for the pump.  And if you want you can get REALLY HOT water with it.  No pressure required.  AND turn it off when you don't need it.  There are quite a few of this type of heater around--this looks like the most usable in a homestead--as opposed to camping--environment.

http://www.heatershop.com/coleman_hot_water_heater_2300_700.html

[glenn-k]

That's an interesting find, Amanda.  Reading over the PDF link on the information page you provided I see that it does have safety protection, optional shower adapter, hose hookup and a ten year warranty.

The small bottles of propane could get a little expensive but there is an adapter to take the place of the small bottles (go to a big tank).

This could be an answer for people with small remote hot water needs.  I'm going to link it in referral links with credit to you so we can find it easy later.

[Amanda_931]

I'm sure that the coleman does have plenty of safety provisions.  

I've used their camp stoves for years instead of buying an inexpensive stove for the house.  Faster heating and a whole lot cheaper than even an inexpensive stove.

Lehman's is the one who has a dedicated boiler, with water surrounding the fire box, it takes 25" wood.  That's what looked scary to me.  

This big guy:

http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1775&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=809&iSubCat=885&iProductID=1775

[Randy Peckenpaugh]

Thanks to all for your suggestions.

I like the idea of the coleman water heater for our wash house. It looks like it would meet our needs pretty well for that purpose.

We will not have a well for a couple of years, but will have water delivered starting this spring to an 1100 gallon tank.  Considering we have been getting by on about 20 gallons per week, I think we will be happy with that.

Up to this point, our showers have consisted of filling a pump-up plant sprayer with 2 gallons of water and letting it sit in the sun to heat up all day.

By fitting a spray nozzle (like the one on your kitchen sink) to it, we have been able to take reasonably comfortable showers.  It sure will be nice to get a little more civilized, though...

Thanks again...Randy P.

[DavidLeBlanc]

Couple of interesting points: I've been looking into alternate water and waste water disposal systems, and came to some interesting conclusions:

* Rainwater harvesting is a great idea whose time has come. Fresh water is going to be what wars are fought over in the 21st century (trust me!) and starting harvesting now is a great investment. It also turns out to be cheaper than a well if you have a difficult/deep/expensive well to dig and pump water out of. Cost of rain harvesting is less than the well system.

As for grey water disposal, the recognized expert in the field basically says that it's not worth the time and effort and won't ever pay for itself, nor work properly, unless you have a significant amount of grey water to dispose of and have the up-front capital to invest. The system he suggests for the typical domestic situation only amounts to a variation on a leach field ("branched distribution to mini-leach fields") and the purpose is to dispose of the water, not try and renew and recycle it. You end up paying for a redundant system that won't dispose of black water - spec your septic system for the whole load, skip the costs of runing dual waste plumbing and forget about grey water!

I think the break-even point for rainwater harvesting systems is somewhere in the mid-3 thousands for capital outlay and about $120-$600/yr for operating costs. Try costing out a well system and it's monthly pumping costs, especially if you're off-grid. Pumping water out of a deep well can overwelm all other costs of an off-grid electrical system!

BTW, rainwater systems go hand in glove with corrugated metal or f'glass roofing for collection surfaces! Install a mechanically driven (by water run off) "roof washer" system (diverts the first "n" minutes of runoff into a dry well or swale, then arrange your downspouts to dump into a cistern, add some inexpensive filtration and UV purification, put in a bladderized pressure water pump and, viola!, you're done! Annual costs are replacing filter cartridges, the UV lamp ($80/yr) and cleaning the cistern and running the domestic water pump (which, not pumping up to several 100' straight up are heaps cheaper to supply energy for) and, viola! (In an urban situation, you may have to pay for an annual city/rainwater isolation valve inspection. In Portland, OR, that was $35/yr.)

[Amanda_931]

A major reference:

http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/publications/reports/RainHarv.pdf

Here's a really simple tiny system, It would work better if the tank were black or green--less algae growth--have to take it to the car wash every year.  But most of the leaves wash down into that big white pipe, which I can empty easily.  I use it for showers and the washing machine in the summer--but it turns out that trying to run water directly from it into the washer doesn't work well. Don't want to have water freeze in the big white pipe in the winter, though.  The tank seems to survive moderate freezing pretty well:

http://groups.msn.com/ap615/summerandfall03.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=282

I can't seem to find Ole Ersson's site right now--I know he moved to the country, but I think he moved at least the water part of his old site--find it later!.  But that's also a good place to start.

[DavidLeBlanc]

I got most of the above from Mr. Ersson's site, which is gone from it's former location - apparently in the past 2 weeks or so.

They didn't move to the country exactly: they moved to a more suburban part of Portland, where they built a 12x24 "John-style" house! It too has a rainwater harvesting system, as you say.

They're now up a hill in forsested land, away from the road. Sounds perfect!

[DavidLeBlanc]

I'm sure someone has been resisting this, so I'll save them the trouble!

If you have running plumbing, just jiggle the handle!

[glenn-k]

That was terrible, David

I sometimes have running plumbing but my wife's a nurse and she says that's normal as we get older

I'll have to check out the male enhancement section and see if they've posted any remedies for running plumbing lately.

[Randy Peckenpaugh]

If you have running plumbing, just jiggle the handle!

This has been a long winter, hasn't it

[DavidLeBlanc]

We're having an "unwinter" for us - virtually no rain or clouds, but chilly at night!

I think my comment was as much about having a quirky sense of humor - given the venue ("alternative" (tiny/small cabins, cottages and houses)), I bet it attracts a fair number of quirky charcters from out of the woods and underbrush.

[glenn-k]

We have your rain down here in quirky (I prefer eccentric- makes me sound more sophisticated) character land..

Yes - out of the woods and underbrush - and you forgot to mention out from under about 500,000 lbs of dirt and horse manure compost. I just figured the weight of my roof and thats about it.  If that's not quirky I don't know what is