4X4 vehicles

Started by altaoaks, September 14, 2010, 02:34:33 PM

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what are the better choices for a used 4X4 for dirt roads/mud and snow

toyota
5 (22.7%)
jeep
8 (36.4%)
dodge
3 (13.6%)
other
6 (27.3%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Voting closed: September 24, 2010, 02:34:33 PM

altaoaks

hi fellow woodsmen and women, just thought i'd seek your opinions as this is something i need, and soon!  i plan on breaking ground next spring.  mile long unmaintained dirt roads are the rule for many of us.  your experience in this area is highly valuable.  thanks, altaoaks

MountainDon

IMO, having owned IH, Toyota, Suzuki, Ford, and Jeep 4x4;s,  it is not the nameplate that counts, so I voted "other".  Most, if not all of those makes I've owned have made turkeys, as well as preferred choices.

It's more what the tires are, what the ground clearance is, does the owner/driver have chains, a winch, locking diffs, and a good shovel and most importantly, does the driver have any common sense.

Within that broad group I base my selections on...
...solid axles vs independent suspension (solid at both ends is better off road much of the time, IMO),
...manual transmission vs automatic (automatic is better in most off road situations), IMO
...sufficient ground clearance, or can I easily install a lift
...how tall a tire can I use without lifting, changing diff gears
...old fashioned, but reliable, manual locking front hubs vs the automatic engaging hubs. Full time okay, but manual preferred, IMO.
...there may be other stuff like I prefer rubber floor mats to carpet but that's more or less it.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


Erin

I completely agree with Don, and voted the same. 

Also, I wouldn't bother getting just a "4x4."  Too limited.
I'd never build a house without a pickup and if you need 4WD then a 4WD pickup would be the way to go. 
The wise woman builds her own house... Proverbs 14:1

phalynx

Is there any value to this poll?  You have 2 Dodge options and a toyota, followed by other covering the other 47 options.   ???

Proud_Poppa

I voted "Toyota". I do own one and I like it....but the reason I voted Toyota was that they have a reputation for running and running....etc. Mine is a 2009 model with 4 doors and 4wd and I get 21 mpg on my mixed hwy/city driving. The bed is a joke on my truck though....it's hard to have 4 doors AND a big bed. Supposedly....and I've never tried this (and I have a hard time believing this)....but my V6 powered Tacoma is "supposed" to be able to pull 6500 lbs.....so a trailer is a thought if you need to haul a bunch.

Having said all these rosy things about my Toyota....I bang my head on the SOB every single time I get in!! They probably don't have a lot of 6'3" Japanese.
Near McCormick's Creek State Park, Owen County Indiana


Squirl

Get whatever you can get with low mileage cheapest.  They are all going to suck up gas.  I disagree with Erin on have to have a pickup to build a house.  You can get many 4 wheel drive vehicles that can tow a trailer and the trailer for much cheaper than a pickup.  They also tend to get slightly better mileage then when you are not building.

I went with an almost new Wrangler because I know the engine and mechanics well.  I have had many over the years and can fix almost any part myself.  Also, it has changed only so much over the past 50 years so I can still work on it.  It was about $5,000-$10,000 cheaper than a new 4wd pickup.  The trailer and hitch was only $400 total. The trailer is also easier to get things in and out of and larger than a pickup bed too.  It also left me a lot of money left over for extra's like a winch (very handy).  A trailer can hold a lot of weight too.  Mine is rated for 1250 lbs (almost 3/4 ton) and many can hold over 2000 lbs. I have worked with many pickups over the years.  They can be handy, but I have been happier building with a trailer.  

As gas prices keep staying high, I have seen some SUVs dirt cheap.  They are not looked at as the same utility as pickups.  All vehicles are going to require maintenance/repairs.  Most consumer reports don't differ in huger percentages across most car companies.  Just don't go crazy and buy a Land Rover.

OlJarhead

Lots of advice already and it sounds good to me.

Iv'e driven everything from Ford Bronco's to Lada's to HUMMV's and LAVS (ok they don't count since the have 8 wheels)...

In my opinion for what it's worth, the Jeep Cherokee is one of the best all around 4 wheel drive vehicles for offroad use with enough room to bring extra gear etc but not so big it won't go a lot of places.

The Cherokee and Wranglers share the inline 6 that has proven a very strong powerplant that will give you 300,000 to 400,000 miles of use -- which a LOT of others can't say.

I've got 212,000 miles on my XJ (Jeep Cherokee) now and though I had the head rebuilt I figure at 200K+ that aint bad!  It goes where I need it to and carries a lot of gear but isn't a pickup which I think many with land would argue is a better choice -- and they might be right if the requirement is to also carry lumber etc etc.

But there are lots of other great rigs out there like the older Toyota Land Cruisers, the Land Rovers, older bronco's and scouts and so much more.

it's almost 'what flavor do you want' once you get past Don's points which are all excellent.

MountainDon

Since this has grown a pickup truck subplot, I have more to add of the IMO, variety.

Depends. Depends on what else the vehicle must be called on to do.

In my case the XJ Cherokee was chosen for its rear seat when needed once in a while & it's enclosed rear space, in which I can sleep when camping.

I also have a 4 x 8 steel framed and boxed trailer. 18 inch sides and a tailgate. The box is actually 4'1" by 8'1" so it accepts 4x8 sheets goods with no problems. It has a tongue that is longer than normal and also extends, making it easier to carry long lumber on the top sides of the box. I've had it 28 years now. Replaced the springs once after I started the cabin build. It carries a ton easily.

As for the 4x4 I was also meaning a real 4x4, not some compact RAV4 or clone but a 4x4 with a rear low range t-case.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Erin

Quote from: Squirl on September 14, 2010, 04:06:32 PMI disagree with Erin on have to have a pickup to build a house.  You can get many 4 wheel drive vehicles that can tow a trailer and the trailer for much cheaper than a pickup.  
I didn't say you have to have a pickup to build a house. 
I said I wouldn't build one without. 

And you can get a fairly good, used pickup for a few thousand dollars.  A buddy just got a '97 Powerstroke in excellent shape for $4K.  Or you can go older, like a 70s era, for $1K.
Personally, I would never buy any vehicle new, particularly a pickup or SUV!  They depreciate entirely too fast.  But that's a whole 'nother topic.   ;)

So far as towing, I'd definitely want a pickup.  There's no way I'd manage to stay under a 2000 pound limit.  Again, though, that's me.
But I just got 6000 pounds of concrete blocks a couple of weeks ago, so this is fresh in my mind.  lol

BTW, our Powerstroke gets 19 mpg, empty.  (and about 11 with a trailer  ::)  )
The wise woman builds her own house... Proverbs 14:1


altaoaks

hey guys, thanks for all the great input!  i have to say i was actually thinking about a jeep cherokee or wrangler, or an older toyota truck crawler.  but ive never been stuck in serious muck either.  i just remember how my daughter got stuck in some mud in her new dodge nitro and had to call a tow truck.  i know i need something that can really get us out of deep dodo!  you guys have been dealing with dirt roads that are as difficult as mine will be for a lot longer than i have even been worrying about it.  i really do appreciate all that your experience brings to the table.  i am thrilled to avoid making a big mistake when you fellas can guide me in the right direction.

i used to have a 1987 jeep cherokee straight 6.  it had the japanese tranny and 249,000 miles and the engine had never been opened up.  my mechanic was betting it would easily pass 300 K without major repairs, but it got hit and run one night while parked in front of my house.  that jeep r :Docked, but i never did any off road stuff in it.  the most 4-wheeling it saw was the interstate 80 over the donnor pass to reno and tahoe.  so i dont know from experience how well it would crawl out of a mile of muddy road.   hopefully there are other folks out there who have bought and plan on building a cabin who will benifit from you alls experience and expertise!  i really do value what you veterans have to say.

OlJarhead

Quote from: altaoaks on September 14, 2010, 06:42:06 PM
hey guys, thanks for all the great input!  i have to say i was actually thinking about a jeep cherokee or wrangler, or an older toyota truck crawler.  but ive never been stuck in serious muck either.  i just remember how my daughter got stuck in some mud in her new dodge nitro and had to call a tow truck.  i know i need something that can really get us out of deep dodo!  you guys have been dealing with dirt roads that are as difficult as mine will be for a lot longer than i have even been worrying about it.  i really do appreciate all that your experience brings to the table.  i am thrilled to avoid making a big mistake when you fellas can guide me in the right direction.

i used to have a 1987 jeep cherokee straight 6.  it had the japanese tranny and 249,000 miles and the engine had never been opened up.  my mechanic was betting it would easily pass 300 K without major repairs, but it got hit and run one night while parked in front of my house.  that jeep r :Docked, but i never did any off road stuff in it.  the most 4-wheeling it saw was the interstate 80 over the donnor pass to reno and tahoe.  so i dont know from experience how well it would crawl out of a mile of muddy road.   hopefully there are other folks out there who have bought and plan on building a cabin who will benifit from you alls experience and expertise!  i really do value what you veterans have to say.

On the back of my XJ there is a sticker:  Got Mud :)

I used to LOVE getting mud on the roof and everywhere else and then parking by some bimmer suv that was spotless -- maybe even a little too close *snicker*

Extreme Xj's are beyond my knowledge and Don has done some pretty crazy stuff (to me) in his XJ but before you run out and buy anything consider a few things:

1.  If a little lift is in order you'll want to upgrade the gears.  My XJ with 31" tires did ok with stock diffs but really it wasn't right.  So I put in 4.10:1's and am much happier.
2.  Lift and tires -- if you expect to drive in mud then a decent lift (OME 3" or one of the Rubicon or other 4.5" lifts might be in order) and a good set of tires is in order.  I've been using the Les Swab Wild Countries (and their replacement) for a while and find they work nicely.
3.  Winch -- can't go wrong with a winch IMHO and though mine hasn't been needed in the 8 years or so I've owned a cherokee it has helped pull others out.  A winch that can be mounted in the rear when needed is smart for those days you go a little too far.
4.  High lift jack -- useful in more ways then one can imagine but my advice, for what it's worth, is to stay out of those spots.

The Cherokee can get 19mpg if it's tuned right (automatic -- the manual I had got 23) but it's no gas miser.

I can tow 3000lbs with the XJ but not sure I'd tow the 5000 it's rated for -- seems a bit much.

All in all it's a personal thing but the XJ has a reputation for going a long long time with good maintenance.  I've seen them turn over 300k without too much fuss.  Mine did need the top end rebuilt but that isn't always the case -- they are all different.

Anyway, a good live axle true 4x4 is hard to beat in the mud, snow, sand or rough steep roads!

RIjake




Here's my present daily driver.  I've had this for over 5 years and have been very happy with the performance especially off-road.  The roads around my land in Maine can be a little rough and this truck handles it fine.  It's a V6, 5 spd.  Now I've got extensive experience with Jeeps and Fords too and wouldn't bad mouth them either for the same job.  The Toyota is just what i'm driving now.  This truck is actually for sale right now, I'm looking to upsize to the Tundra 4 door to have more room for the family during the 4 hour trip to Maine!

altaoaks

much thanks to you all, squirl, erin, proud poppa, phalynx, oljarhead, rijake, and mountaindon!! [cool] 8).  

hey mountaindon, hows the weather out there in NM?  im from clovis, and spent much happy weekends at my aunt iris ranch and general store in mccallister (near tuccumcari)  well, im a bit home sick, really miss the culture!

MountainDon

Still 88 at present here in RR. The cabin looks like 76 right now and will likely fall to the mid 40's tonight.

Ya' might be needing a green chili fix too?   ;D   El Pinto has mail order.


Back to the mud.  I really dislike mud because of the cleanup later. I'd rather play on the rocks than play in the mud. But sometimes it can not be avoided.

Most 4x4's off the showroom floor will get stuck on a mucky road. That's because most come with tires that suck in muck. The all weather or so called M&S treads have too small of an open space between tread blocks. They fill up with muck and becomes slicks. Muck calls for genuine mud tires with big blocky tread blocks and big spaces between them. Even those work best when they are spinning fast enough to cast off the mud that wants to stick in those spaces. The downside of those is that they wear out a bit faster or a whole lot faster than many other tires. I have also found that for some reason when an XJ is flat towed, as in dragging it around behind the RV, the front tires wear funny. The block wear becomes uneven and then the tires become NOISY when driving on normal roads. I believe it has something to do with the large overhang an RV has behind the rear axle and the sideways push that generates when the RV turns. In any event I never had that problem until I flat towed it to UT once. After that I would always hope to cut a sidewall at the end of a trail ride so I could use the Discount Tire road hazard warranty.

I have had my fully locked XJ sunk to the axles; as well as my old fully locked and setup CJ sunk to the frame rails. At times like that it helps recovery if one knows when to give up. 

Also most any 4x4 is actually a 2x2 unless equipped with at least a factory type limited slip differential. Many have only what are called open differentials, open diffs. Some may have a limited slip in the rear axle. If one wheel on each open diff axle has no traction the 4x4 becomes a 0x0.

Locking diffs are a very good solution, especially if they are of the type that can be turned on and off at will (ARB, Eaton and Ox). There are also lockers that are always 'on' or active (Detroit, Lock-Rite). Always 'on' can be a problem in some situations like slippery side slopes. These are all after market installations. I must admit that I have not kept myself up to date as far as what factory rides come with good locking diffs. I know the Rubicon series of Wranglers do, but believe there are others (some Dodge and Hummer?) that do.  Note that a limited slip diff is NOT a locker. I don't know how easy it would be to find a used Rubicon but that could be a good choice. There are many that have not seen much heavy off road use.


Hard to beat a crawler tracktor with wide tracks...   ;D
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


altaoaks

 :) :)you are so right mountaindon, what i realllllly need is some NM chilli peppers.  id kill for some NM enchiladas and beans!  you just cant get that outside of NM.  some try to fake it, but it looses that sumthin sumthin in the translation!  my brother is in FL and he, too is missing home cooked food.  he is looking for land near santa fe, soon as he unloads his home in FL he is there.  good, ill have a place to stay and get the best real new mexican food in the world :P

i will head your advice on the 4by and the tires.  sounds like i need most any 4by thats high off the ground, and it needs 2 sets of tires,  1 for the winter and another for the rest of the year and just change them out seasonally?  or else park a basic 4by at the end of the dirt road, and a monster for the dirt road.  well, i am going to have to work on that.

thanks again, for the info and for the home cooking that i think i can really taste right now!  i will savor both. 

MountainDon

Many years ago, I had a winter set of tires mounted on rims (33x9.5) and set of summer rims and tires (33x12.5) for a Scout. That was nice. Did the same thing back home in the seventies with a set of front and rear summer and studded winter tires on the 123Gt I had.

Every year in early winter, like about the time the snow starts to collect in the mountains, I get to thinking about doing the same. But that would only buy me another month of mountain driving access at the most. Our mountain access road, 3 miles, is not plowed at all, has umpteen dozen curves, some with slight sidehill towards the hard way down, plus elevation changes, some of which are steep..... It's just not worth the expense and the potential for trouble.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

glenn kangiser

A thing or two to add - most of the above are good and bad as Don mentioned - most will do the trick.

4 wheel drive doesn't always mean you can go anywhere in anything.  It just means that when it is stuck in the mud it is a hell of a lot harder to get it out.

That said, I would also recommend a Dodge 4x4 pickup used with a Cummins diesel except one with the 53 block...  They are usually reasonably cheap and generally get around 20 mpg for a full size except when loaded heavy. 
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

glenn kangiser

Also - Mahindra is coming out with a small diesel 4x4 truck - I think next year - they did just finally get their EPA certification.    

It is supposed to be around $25000 and get around 30 mpg.  It is supposedly about the size of a Tundra - a bit bigger than small I think.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Rover

I have an 1965 Rover, model 88 with canvas top.  I love it but realize it isn't right for others or for your application.  Its been practical for my small scale construction projects.  I've had it for almost 20 years during which the first 10 was hard off road use.  The engine was rebuilt 3 years ago.  The aluminum body work will outlast me.  I've galvanized any of the steel framing of the bodywork and the whole firewall  And now rebuilding the truck onto a new galvanised chassis.  Its my little workhorse.

Some day I'll have to learn how to post pics.  I've looked at the tutorial and it looks challenging.


glenn kangiser

It's easy, Rover.

Start a Photobucket acct free.  Upload your picture.  Name or save it without a name.  Copy the bottom IMG tag on the picture and paste it into your message where you want the pix to appear as you are composing it.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.


texasgun

Also - Mahindra is coming out with a small diesel 4x4 truck Come on Glen do you really belive it ? I have been waiting for about 4 years now  [noidea'
WEST TEXAS

NM_Shooter

I've owned several different brands and types of vehicles within those brands. 

For rock crawling, I'd pick a Jeep. 

For mud, snow, and tight areas, I'd pick a late 90's 4-Runner. 

For towing, I'll stick with my F250 PS. 
"Officium Vacuus Auctorita"

Erin

Quote4 wheel drive doesn't always mean you can go anywhere in anything.  It just means that when it is stuck in the mud it is a hell of a lot harder to get it out.

My dad always taught us to drive as though you don't have 4WD.  That way, if you get stuck, you can pop it in 4WD and get out.
But if you get stuck IN 4WD you need a tractor.   :P

QuoteI would also recommend a Dodge 4x4 pickup used with a Cummins diesel
Well I suppose...
But only if you can't find a Ford!  ;)


Truth be told, if I were shopping for something to be JUST for 4WD and cabin-building, I'd get an old Ford Highboy.  They have about nine parts, all of which are readily available.  The engine compartment is enormous so they're easy to work on.  It's old enough (and made from real steel!) you'll won't cry when you bang it up.  And, unless you find one that's all souped up, you can find a good running one for less than $2K.  
And old pickups were made in the day when they were built to be ABUSED and live to tell the tale.  
The wise woman builds her own house... Proverbs 14:1

Erin

PS:  How bad does this road usually get??

Quoteor else park a basic 4by at the end of the dirt road, and a monster for the dirt road.
A "dirt" road doesn't mean it's full of washouts or always muddy...  
Though the last place we lived on, I had three miles of just such a road and I drove it with my Focus.  lol  
For that matter, my Metro is the best vehicle I've ever had in nice, greasy mud.  So long as I didn't high-center, I can get that thing through some pretty messy roads.  Deep snow is a problem though unless you're driving something both high, and heavy.  That way you can hit drifts and have the momentum to carry you through.

But unless you have regular rain/heavy snow, you probably won't need too much, just to get down a dirt road...   ???

And it's only a mile??  Unless you're hauling big stuff in (lumber, etc.) you can just walk in if the road was too bad.  Again, experience talking.  lol
The wise woman builds her own house... Proverbs 14:1

OlJarhead

As usual Don's posts are excellent :)

I use one set of tires year round, but I don't drive in deep mud anymore.  

The road I'm driving is 3 miles of rocky and rough road that can get washes out if the rain gets coming darn hard and can be covered in lots of snow and deep ice.  It's very steep in places and is downright scary unless you've got chains.

Thanks to Don's and others posts last winter I bought a set of V Groove chains and now don't worry about that 4 or 5 inch deep ICE!  I just chop my way through it.

Anyway, if you buy a used Jeep with Limited slip in the rear (lots if not all of the newer XJ's had it) then expect to get it rebuilt.  Mine was breaking way low so when I had the gears put in I had the LS rebuilt so it functioned correctly (nice to have a shop handy that actually knows how to check it).  That means that I mostly have a 3x4 :)  I don't really have a need for lockers mind you, but I live in drier country and won't drive the jeep up big rocks like Don will (I'm afraid it might fall over! hahah).

But you have to know your roads and weather before making that choice.  If I were in a lot of deep mud I'd lift it 3-4.5" and make sure I had some decent road/mud tires and then be darn sure I had the winch on a receiver hitch mount so I could mount it in the rear -- why?  It's always best to retrieve from whence you came.

In Armored vehicle recovery school you learn that a vehicle sunk to the axles is now twice as heavy as not.  Thus your winch has to be able to handle twice the weight of you rig at a min.  Second, a block and tackle roped to a tree (wire roped that is) allows you to run the winch cable through the bock and tackle and back to your jeep doubling the pulling power of the winch :)  So an 8000lb winch suddenly becomes a 16000lbs winch...do it again and it effectively triples the power -- yes I've had to do that.

Note:  When in 3-4 feet of watery mud in a big storm trying to hook up the winch cable to the rig after rigging the block and tackles, when lighting strikes, can be VERY exciting!  <-- yes I've been there.

I'll try to post a pic of recovering an 8 wheeled vehicle in recovery school...over 6 feet of mud in a tank trap and I was junior Marine...so you know who got to go swimming that day?

Anyway, I digress!  I beleive in purchasing used, something with a solid reputation, color isn't as important as history of the rig -- take it to a shop -- I can't stress that enough.  Pay the shop to tell you what it needs.

For example:  You can buy forestry Jeeps out here with low miles on them.  A friend bought his 99 XJ for $3000 with less then 100k on the clock (I think it was 70k).  It needs nothing.  Of course it has low pinion diffs and he wants the high pinions so will replace those and it's stock height etc.

I bought my 98 xj in 2005 and it had 100k on it.  It was a fleet rig and looked new.  Ran great but wasn't long that I needed suspension so the OME (Old Man Emu) 3" lift went in (was cheaper then stock anyway) which led to bigger tires, a little more lift, offset rims, bumper, brush guard, winch, seat, and more and more and more...so be careful not to get carried away....

But my XJ is still cheaper then a new vehicle :) and runs awesome.

Lastly:  my mechanic tells me that Jeep stands for:  Just Empty Every Pocket.

Cheers
Erik