war in Iran immanent

[benevolance]

Don you are right..my figures for the death totals are too high...But not by much...Did some searching for civilian body counts and it is around 77,000 since america attacked and started occupying Iraq
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

[MountainDon]

OK. But those numbers are mainly Sunni killing Shi'a, or vice versa. If the US armed forces were to disappear overnight, what do you think would happen? I don't believe the killing would stop. But we could rest easy, complacent in the knowledge that it's not our doing?

And various estimates place the number of deaths caused/ordered by Saddam to range from 290,000 to closing in on two million.

If even only the low figure is accurate, they represent a crime surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II. Oh yeah and Joe Stalin did away with countless millions. Saddam was a piker when compared to histories evil men; but he was well on his way. I believe the world to be a better place without likes of him around.  But then there's those like Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who claim the holocaust never happened.....

[glenn-k]

I don't know if I can find thousands at once but large groups at once  should do.

Marines Ordered To Execute Civilians In Nazi-Like Slaughter

At one house Wuterich gave an order to shoot on sight as Marines waited for a response after knocking on the door, said Mendoza.

"He said 'Just wait till they open the door, then shoot,'" Mendoza said.
Mendoza then said he shot and killed an adult male who appeared in a doorway.

During a subsequent search of the house, Mendoza said he received an order from another Marine, Lance Corporal Stephen
Tatum, to shoot seven women and children he had found in a rear bedroom.

"When I opened the door there was just women and kids, two adults were lying down on the bed and there were three children on the bed ... two more were behind the bed," Mendoza said.
"I looked at them for a few seconds. Just enough to know they were not presenting a threat ... they looked scared. I told him there were women and kids inside there. He said 'Well, shoot them,'" Mendoza told prosecutor Lieutenant Colonel Sean Sullivan.

"And what did you say to him?" Sullivan asked.

"I said 'But they're just women and children.' He didn't say nothing."

Mendoza said he returned to a position at the front of the house and heard a door open behind him followed by a loud noise. Returning later that afternoon to conduct body retrieval, Mendoza said he found a room full of corpses.

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/140091

One of the strategies of the US is to get them to kill each other via accelerating their own civil wars.  We are directly responsible for that.  Our allies, the British even went so far as to dress up as Arabs and got caught in Basra.  You can bet for everyone caught there are tons who didn't get caught.

Because of that I think we need to count the deaths as scientifically reported by The Lancet plus the added tally of those killed since the study, bringing the count to over a million. 1,028,907

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/counterexplanation.html

This does not count the 91 Gulf War or the results of the sanctions.  We degraded -polluted -their water supplies then prevented them from getting chlorine to purify it.  We were good enough to send teams over there to report the results of the degradation of their water supplies and count the deaths of their children we caused by diarrhea and other intestinal diseases.  I read the reports a few years ago.

This does not count the cowardly strafing and massacre of the returning armies on the highway of death in 1991 as they were retreating while complying with UN orders.  

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-death.htm For the rest of the Highway of death story.




Here for more...  http://home.earthlink.net/~lazydog2/images/id1.html

I want to give testimony on what are called the "highways of death." These are the two Kuwaiti roadways, littered with remains of [highlight]2,000 mangled Iraqi military vehicles, and the charred and dismembered bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers, who were withdrawing from Kuwait on February 26th and 27th 1991 in compliance with UN resolutions.
[/highlight]
[highlight]U.S. planes trapped the long convoys by disabling vehicles in the front, and at the rear, and then pounded the resulting traffic jams for hours. "It was like shooting fish in a barrel," said one U.S. pilot. The horror is still there to see.[/highlight]

The entire retreating army was destroyed -- both ends blocked and murdered in a hotbox from the air.  Yeah -- we are real compassionate heroes.  Lets not forget that our representative April Glaspie likely set Saddam up in 1991 - as usual stories have been tampered with to make us look better but general consensus  before the tampering was:

When these purported transcripts were made public, Glaspie was accused of having given tacit approval for the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, which took place on August 2, 1990. It was argued that Glaspie's statements that "We have no opinion on your Arab — Arab conflicts" and that "the Kuwait issue is not associated with America" were interpreted by Saddam as giving free rein to handle his disputes with Kuwait as he saw fit. It was also argued that Saddam would not have invaded Kuwait had he been given an explicit warning that such an invasion would be met with force by the United States.[2][

"It has never happened in history that a nation that has won a war has been held accountable for atrocities committed in preparing for and waging that war. We intend to make this one different. What took place was the use of technological material to destroy a defenseless country. From 125,000 to 300,000 people were killed... We recognize our role in history is to bring the transgressors to justice." Ramsey Clark

Ramsey Clark served as U.S. Attorney General in the administration of Lyndon Johnson. He is the convener of the Commission of Inquiry and a human rights lawyer of world-wide respect. This report was given in New York, May 11, 1991.

http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm

Our people know how to get the wars they want.

Hmmm....  I guess that was thousands at once. :-/

Can we also justify that?

[benevolance]

always glad to know I can count on Glenn to help me out here..

[glenn-k]

Only when you are good, Peter.

[benevolance]

Glenn dunno how to take that man...

Do you mean Good (wink wink) like my wife means good?

[glenn-k]

I'm NOT your wife, Peter. :-/

[williet]

I'm NOT your wife, Peter. :-/

So you and Peter? You LIBERAL you!!!!!


ha ha ha ha

[glenn-k]

Sorry, williet.  Messed up your picture of me. :-/  I would not drop the soap.

I'm not really liberal.  I'm not really conservative.  I'm actually anti-political, anti government, or at least anti-corrupt government.

Wars are the tools of the elite and greedy.  For the most part the common people only want to live in peace - no matter what country.  Leadership striving for power, money, greed, oil, control of other countries, population control and reduction are the cause of most death and destruction.  

Not peace loving peasant individuals like me.

[glenn-k]

I guess we would have to add religious intolerance to that list.

I am also pro-God but anti-organized religion (but not intolerant).  I guess I would still allow others to be led down the wrong path. :-/

[glenn-k]

I heard that the Highway of Death was prompted by a temper tantrum of Bush senior if I recall correctly- told the military to kill them all --- years ago.

More fairly current smaller massacres -

     
Marines may face trial over Iraq massacre

· Report likely to say troops shot 24 unarmed civilians
· Murder charges likely after killings and cover-up

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1784307,00.html

Wedding party massacre


Iraqis claim more than 40 killed in US helicopter attack

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1220750,00.html


New 'Iraq massacre' tape emerges
     
The BBC has uncovered new video evidence that US forces may have been responsible for the deliberate killing of 11 innocent Iraqi civilians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039420.stm

Reuters news agency Monday cited Iraq's security minister accusing "US and Iraqi forces of killing 37 unarmed civilians in the mosque after tying them up."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/iraq-m28.shtml

Fallujah Massacre

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm

    Incinerating Iraqis; the napalm cover up

"Human fireballs" and "melted corpses"; these are the real expressions of Operation Iraqi Freedom not the bland platitudes issuing from the presidential podium.

Dr. Khalid ash-Shaykhli, who was the head of the Iraqi Ministry of Health in Falluja, reported to Al Jazeera (and to the Washington Post, although it was never reported) that "research, prepared by his medical team, prove that the US forces used internationally prohibited substances, including mustard gas, nerve gas, and other burning chemicals in their attacks on the war-torn city."

Dr Shaykhli's claims have been corroborated by numerous eyewitness accounts as well as reports that "all forms of nature were wiped out in Falluja".as well as "hundreds, of stray dogs, cats, and birds that had perished as a result of those gasses." An unidentified chemical was used in the bombing raids that killed every living creature in certain areas of the city.

As journalist Dahr Jamail reported later in his article "What is the US trying to Hide?", "At least two kilometers of soil were removed..exactly as they did at Baghdad Airport after the heavy battles there during the invasion and the Americans used their special weapons."

Note:  I know Dahr personally - he would not lie.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9307.htm

Check out our use of phosphorus in the massacre at Falluja
http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/

This week, the broadcast of a shattering new documentary (below) provided fresh confirmation of a gruesome war crime covered by this column nine months ago: the use of chemical weapons by American forces during the frenzied, Bush-ordered destruction of Fallujah in November 2004.

Using filmed and photographic evidence, eyewitness accounts, and the direct testimony of American soldiers who took part in the attacks, the documentary – "Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre" – catalogues the American use of white phosphorous shells and a new, "improved" form of napalm that turned human beings into "caramelized" fossils, with their skin dissolved and turned to leather on their bones.

The film was produced by RAI, the Italian state network run by a government that backed the war.

I remember now -- the city was shut down for weeks so we could hide the evidence.

"By the end of operations, the city lay in ruins. Falluja's compensation commissioner has reported that 36,000 of the city's 50,000 homes were destroyed, along with 60 schools and 65 mosques and shrines. The US claims that 2,000 died, most of them fighters. Other sources disagree. When medical teams arrived in January they collected more than 700 bodies in only one third of the city. Iraqi NGOs and medical workers estimate between 4,000 and 6,000 dead, mostly civilians -- a proportionately higher death rate than in Coventry and London during the blitz."

Hmmm -- seems that one got into the thousands again. I'm sure they were all insurgents and not the men, women and children who said they were too poor to leave the city and had nowhere to go.  We must have used the advanced smart phosphorus that only sticks to insurgents. :-/  Give me a break.

At least we are compassionate killers.  We made sure they all burned completely to death so they wouldn't be in pain.

See also  http://www.ivaw.org/faq

They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.  

Tacitus

[Sassy]

And here is how our military are treated...

Pentagon slow to spend on safety for US troops in Iraq

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j9hwXfjnkuy_LQSdaUo34XEgqdvQ (report published in USA Today)

[benevolance]

Glenn the best invention ever is soap on a rope!

No soap dropping in this house either...*LOL*

[benevolance]

Not that there is anything wrong with that

(seinfeld reference)

[Sassy]

So what do you think about this, PEG?

The Neoconservative Agenda to Sacrifice the Fifth Fleet – The New Pearl Harbor

By Michael E. Salla, M.A., Ph.D.
November 7, 2007

The Bush administration has covered up and ignored dissenting Pentagon war games analysis that suggests an attack on Iran's nuclear or military facilities will lead directly to the annihilation of the Navy's Fifth Fleet now stationed in the Persian Gulf. Lt. General Paul Van Riper led a hypothetical Persian Gulf state in the 2002 Millennium Challenge wargames that resulted in the destruction of the Fifth Fleet. His experience and conclusions regarding the vulnerability of the Fifth Fleet to an assymetrical military conflict and the implications for a war against Iran have been ignored. Neoconservatives within the Bush administration are currently aggressively promoting a range of military actions against Iran that will culminate in it attacking the US Navy's Fifth Fleet with sophisticated cruise anti-ship missiles. They are ignoring Van Riper's experiences in the Millennium Challenge and how it applies to the current nuclear conflict with Iran.  cont @ link

http://americasherojourney.com/Article-New-Pearl-Harbour.htm

[glenn kangiser]

They are sitting ducks out there and could have been had if this sub wanted them- at least a few of them..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

This subject has been coming up for a long time in other countries.  It looks like they are saying -- here I am -- hit me.

[PEG688]

 What would you have our subs do to stop that Chinese sub from surfacing?

It's  cat and mouse game , our sub's (USA) IF they where there , which in my military mind they where,  could have / would have taken the Chinese sub out , BUT as they felt it was a ruse / game for the Chinese to think they duped the fleet they did what they are known for , Submarines the silent service!  They did nothing,,,, change the situation and a different result may have happened.

There's not much surface boats or P-3's and /or  S-3's  can do to stop a sub from going where they, the sub , wants to go . They can ping it but folks would freak IF the shot at one.

So big deal a sub Zanuck up on some surface guys , pretty normal , no big deal. IMO.

As far as this imminent war , not immanent   war this thread started in Sept. it's now mid Nov. so define imminent   or for that matter immanent

As far as Iran taking out the fleet with cruise missiles,  maybe , I think we should just surrender California to Iran and call it good .

How many do they have ? How good are they made / programed / armed? When was their last test fire ? What was the result of that test ? One mans opinion does not make it a sure thing.

Maybe that's the way it'll shake out , IMO we should let the  Israelis  take care of it   like they did Iraq's nuke plant , much to do about nothing , saber rattling.  That's about all it amounts to.  


Nice job  Sassy draggin me into this thread  

End of transmi...................  

[John_C]

As far as this imminent war , not immanent   war this thread started in Sept. it's now mid Nov. so define imminent   or for that matter immanent

The quote on which this "imminent war" thread is based goes back to at least mid - late 2005

At the bottom of the Fall 2007 article by The Insider they reference an October 18, 2005 article in The Guardian as their source. The writer of the Guardian article says he knows it's true because he got it from (one of) John Bolton's speech writers.

At one point I traced it back to spring of 2005.  It has been repackaged regularly since then to rally support for the  political candidate, lobbyist, ... book du jour.

At this point the credibility of those prognosticators is on par with the administrations.  Sorta like congress where every week there is rhetoric pointing out that Bush's approval rating is ~ 30%.  Too bad congress only has an approval rating of ~18%

[glenn kangiser]

I agree on the - what is imminent? part. [highlight](speel cheeker din't ketch it cause it is unuther word with an entirely difront meening).[/highlight]

Israel would like Iran gone.  Our government would like to help them.  Our people don't want another war.  Bush and Cheney would love to do it.  The rest of the world is wondering if they may be next and are starting to team up.

Iran is not claiming to be able to get us here, but they are claiming to be able to launch 11,000 missles at our nearby interests in 1 minute.  I forget their total range.

As long as they all rattle and nobody pulls the sabre out.

Great exercise of self control PEG.

[Sassy]

Well, PEG, you being a Navy guy & all - since you saw right through that other article I posted, wanted your opinion on this one...    Seems to me that they are building up the propaganda so that Joe citizen gets used to the idea for when a move is really made...    Isn't that the way our wannabe dictators like to play it?

[Sassy]

Entangling Alliances

In the name of clamping down on "terrorist uprisings" in Pakistan, General Musharraf has declared a state of emergency and imposed martial law.  The true motivations behind this action however, are astonishingly transparent, as the reports come in that mainly lawyers and opposition party members are being arrested and harassed.  Supreme Court justices are held in house arrest after indicating some reluctance to certify the legitimacy of Musharraf's recent re-election.

Meanwhile, terrorist threats on US interests may be more likely to originate from Pakistan, a country to which we have sent $10 billion.

Now we are placed in the difficult position of either continuing to support a military dictator who has taken some blatantly un-Democratic courses of action, or withdrawing support and angering this nuclear-capable country.   The administration is carefully negotiating this tight-rope by "reviewing Pakistan's foreign aid package" and asking Musharraf to relinquish his military title and schedule elections.  

By the time he complies with the requests of the White House sufficiently to continue to receive his "allowance," courtesy of the American taxpayer, his mission will be accomplished.  A more friendly Supreme Court will be installed and enough of the opposition party will be jailed or detained to assure an outcome of the elections that will meet with his approval.  All the while, our administration lauds Musharraf as a trusted friend and ally.

So much for a War on Terror.  So much for making the world safe for democracy.

Free trade means no sanctions against Iran, or Cuba or anyone else for that matter.  Entangling alliances with no one means no foreign aid to Pakistan, or Egypt, or Israel, or anyone else for that matter.  If an American citizen determines a foreign country or cause is worthy of their money, let them send it, and encourage their neighbors to send money too, but our government has no authority to use hard-earned American taxpayer dollars to mire us in these nightmarishly complicated, no-win entangling alliances.

When we look at global situations today, the words of our founding fathers are becoming more relevant daily.  We need to understand that a simple, humble foreign policy makes us less vulnerable and less targeted on the world stage.  Pakistan should not be getting an "allowance" from us and we should not be propping up military dictators that oppress people.  We should mind our own business and stop the oppressive taxation of Americans that makes this meddling possible.   Ron Paul - Texas State Representative
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2007/tst111107.htm

[PEG688]

I

#1:  Israel would like Iran gone.  


#2: Iran is not claiming to be able to get us here, but they are claiming to be able to launch 11,000 missles at our nearby interests in 1 minute.  I forget their total range.

#1: I think that is a mutual mind set.

#2: Claimin and doin are different things eh Adimajohn (sp)  is full of $hit !  He's a nut case as well   , a bad combo for a guy with a nuke

[glenn kangiser]

I think most politicians are full of it, but what are they going to do?

Roll over and hand Israel, Bush and Cheney the keys to the country? :-?

To me it would be like me walking into your house - taking all of your guns and telling you that it is OK for me to attack you but you are not allowed to defend yourself, and I know your neighbor hates you but you are not allowed to defend yourself from him either because I like him -- (in this case even though your neighbor has nukes and is actively attacking its neighbors).

I don't see where Iran is out of line here and the rhetoric that makes people think they are is just being spewed by our war leaders and our government controlled main stream media because it is what Isreal wants.  Our leaders have sworn their support for Israel at the expense and lives  of the American lower and middle class.  Our leaders think this will move them on into heaven.  I have news for them -- if any of them get there, I want to be in the other place.  Zionism sucks.