Glenn's Underground Cabin Update

[glenn kangiser]

It gets better, Ben.  

Working in the construction zone around the building yesterday the grading people sent me out to the street to park.  I put two wheels on the curb to keep the truck out of the bike lane on the outside.  Parked over a newly painted red curb but in a safe parking spot, the citizens again complained and sent the police out to make me and the scaffold truck move. 

The cop was sympathetic, and to their credit the Menlo Park police were both very nice about it and realize that they are serving a bunch of whiny little weenies....

I moved and told the superintendent that I could not work on his building if my truck was parked in San Francisco, and they were paying the bill.  He rearranged the grading crew equipment (good guys), and got me enough room to park with inches to spare for the excavator to work.  

17 hours 45 minutes working time yesterday including travel which they pay, and the job is complete.  Yeah....yay.. or whatever.  

[ben2go]

People do tend to come thru in a pinch or when they want something really bad.

[glenn kangiser]

Yeah, they do ...and also to minimize added cost to them.  This job is one where most of the guys working there are just happy to be working.  The foreman said that most of the jobs they are getting now are rough - the gravy jobs are not around much anymore.

I got back up the hill on the little underground project today.  First order of the day was to improve my home made straight blade adapter for my grapple/digging bucket.  It is handy with the grapple and big digging teeth but no cleanup or grading with it.  Th answer to that was to make a slip on grader blade attachment to go over the teeth.  It also increased the bucket capacity to where it will likely hold better than a yard fully loaded.



I had put it on rather simply the other day with three slip over pockets but was stripping the bolt threads that clamped it on when digging with the ends, so made some rebar loops today and welded them over the outside teeth as well as put a bigger bolt on the left side.  No more trouble and does a much nicer job.

Loosen the two clamping bolts and it will come right off.  The gap under the teeth does not really lose much dirt as it is compacted and stays on as you dig.  Now I can clean up right to the walls as well as smooth things out nice. More pix of the project coming up later.

[HoustonDave]

Loosen the two clamping bolts and it will come right off.  The gap under the teeth does not really lose much dirt as it is compacted and stays on as you dig.  Now I can clean up right to the walls as well as smooth things out nice. More pix of the project coming up later.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and what a mother it can be...   Good workaround there Glenn!

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Dave. 

Previous to making the smooth blade attachment, I was leaving  probably at least 1/2 cu. yard per 8 feet along the walls and could never smooth grade a floor - driveway etc.  I have one old smooth blade bucket but it is tiny on this big Bobcat, besides I don't want to change to a less versatile bucket. I already widened this grapple to about 7 foot 8 inches to make it a bit wider than the tracks ( added 8 inches each side).  Before that rocks and dirt were getting under the tracks as they were wider than the blade.  I did not want to clean that out with a wheelbarrow...

Here is a shot of my cleanup on the way into the excavation this afternoon.

[glenn kangiser]

Here is a little look at the excavation.

Click the pix for a short video. 

[glenn kangiser]

OK ... back to more procedure for those interested in building their own underground complex.....

If you are digging by hand, just set up batter boards squaring the hole and leave room to dig a bit wider  Use one line for the building line and another a minimum of about three inches out to be the digging line.  That will allow room for you to install your retaining boards and moisture barrier.

If digging with a machine then tolerances can be a little larger as backfilling will be easier.  Still do not dig excessively as the back fill is unsupported and loose soil is heavy adding more pressure against the sides.

I like to use my Bobcat as a giant framing square getting the sides of the machine parallel to the sidewall .. just the distance away that the edge of the bucket sticks out past the tracks or wheels.  When I dig the forward wall then it will be pretty square with the side wall making squaring the excavation easier.



Another easy way of laying out lines for digging is to take a steel tape and pull it straight down the building line laying it on the ground.  Get a bag of lime or dolomite and take a cup and pour a light line of the lime directly over the tightly pulled tape.  That will leave a nice digging line on the ground with a clean un-chalked straight line down the center when the tape is removed.  

With the Bobcat parallel and tight to the wall, I raise the bucket up and down allowing the edge of the bucket to knock off an protruding edges that were not cleaned up previously.

Safety... another good thing to bring up here...  

You can't build your dream home if you are all squishy and gooey laying in the bottom of a hole with a pile of sloughed off dirt and rocks laying on you.  Your friends may not speak to you any more if you are dead either....

Know your soil conditions and be aware that seeming solid walls could be down on top of you in seconds if they are unstable.  If questionable taper the upper sides back to remove weight from the lower wall.   Coming up ... I will show you a way to understand where the most danger lies when excavating your Uhouse.

[Redoverfarm]

Three inches to install your retaining wall and moisture barrier. 

[EPriesing]

Glen

I love reading this thread.  You crack me up with the animals!  Straight out laughs quite often.

We are in the very beginning process of getting our Victoria project under way, and are learning a lot of the building process from you and the forum members.

thanks for keeping a running blog...thread!
Betsy

[glenn kangiser]

Hi Betsy and to the forum.  Glad you enjoy my blathering, otherwise people may think I am talking to myself again and want to do something about it.... then again..... that's part of the reason I talk to the animals... they  will talk to me no matter what they think of me...

Looking forward to seeing your thread and your progress on your Victoria... one of my favorite houses.

John invited me here to help answer questions regarding the Underground House and other things I know a couple things about.  Thanks to his desire to help owner builders gain the knowledge to better themselves freely, we have gathered quite a great group of members who share the same views and like helping others as well as taking away a few tidbits of information others know more about.

I have always felt that a person could do anything they set their mind to ....if they don't limit themselves by believing that they can only specialize in their own field as limited by their schooling and mindset that is taught today.  If they think they can't do something in their own mind, then likely they can't only because of their own self limitations....

Now... you will have to excuse me ....  I'm off to do a brain surgery in a few minutes... [ouch]  

OK ... just kidding ... nevermind..



John, 3 inches would be about a minimum to be able to get the retaining wall and moisture barrier in using Mike Oehler's PSP methods.

The posts stand vertically ... lets say 3 inches or more from the side of the excavation.  Girders go on top of the posts then beams on top of the girders.

The frame is stabilized temporarily with 2x4  X braces if posts are not set in the ground (I do not set them in the ground).

A moisture barrier - poly or EPDM is dropped in between the excavation and the post and lapped under the bottom a foot or so, taking a few thousandths of an inch.  Extra is left at the top in case it slides down a bit while backfilling.  Minimum retaining board per my experience for an 8 foot sidewall span is 2x material or 1 1/2 inches or so thick.  1x material works satisfactorily on up to a four foot span per my experience.  Other conditions, wood species and soil types may require thicker boards as you would determine in the field.


In Mikes methods, the boards are only slipped behind the post without nailing them. They sit on top of the moisture barrier that is lapped inside at the floor.  This protects them from damage from water and fungus etc.   This allows them to settle tightly on top the lower board.  Backfill pressure holds them in place.  You cannot use treated wood in an underground house as the chemicals have been shown to always find their way into your bloodstream. This is a case where building to code (using treated timbers)  is dangerous to your health and will possibly give you cancer or some other hideous disease... Mike has documented the research and put warnings in his later books....


That leaves 1 1/2 inches for a bit of backfill.  Usually the space will be larger but my point is that in hand digging, you don't want to move any more dirt than you have to.  [ouch]

Mike recommends only hand tamping lightly  such as with a shovel handle then let nature finish the job...refill later after it settles, otherwise there is too much chance of pushing the structure out of plumb.... but then again, that doesn't hurt much either when it really comes down to it - trees don't grow straight... and hey, it's rustic.

[ben2go]

Glenn,thanks for that tid bit of info.If I read it earlier in the thread,my pea brain deleted it to make room for something else I probably already forgot. What was I saying? 

[glenn kangiser]

I have to write myself notes sometimes, Ben...then I try to remember to look at the notes...

[Redoverfarm]

Glenn even with convientional foundations I find it uneasy to squeeze into a 12" opening to install french drains beside the foundation.  Is there going to be a "french drain" addition to the foundation. I assumed that after your own experience with water that this would be a priority.  If so other than doing on the cheap is there any reason that crushed stone is not used for a partial backfill to filter the soil and allow the water to enter a socked pipe?

[ben2go]

See.I forgot to ask about the french drains? 

[glenn kangiser]

Hey guys, I have an answer for that...maybe not the best one but still, an answer.

If using 6 mil poly for the wall moisture barrier, crushed rock will likely poke quite a few holes in it over the years...  As you go to more than poly things start to get more expensive.  EPDM will likely take the crushed rock with no problem.  I think pea gravel would be better than crushed rock with poly - smoother and smaller - less chance of damage.

The French drains are dug before the piers (as I use) are set.  You are right, John that it could use more room for a standard French drain but the sock claims it does not need rock.  I usually add some to it anyway.  You could go to any more expensive and improved drainage solutions you would like if in a problem area.   Dimple board (such as Mira Drain) plastic thimble sheets with filter fabric - rock and geotextile fabric etc. http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/productDetails.aspx?SKU=4152849

There is little that will be draining into this site from above as we are on a ridge so drainage problems will be minimal.  There is also an umbrella membrane going out past the sides for several feet, a few inches above the EPDM roof membrane taking most of the water farther away from the sides of the excavation.  John Hait recommends about 10 feet on his PAHS house as I recall.  

Today I busted out the rock with my Bobcat Jack Hammer for the French drains.  I have about a minimum of 6 to 8  inches on this excavation for the French Drains.  The concrete piers will go a bit past the bottom of the French Drain. Here is a short video of breaking the rock for the French drains today - I put them pretty tight in the corner so that will likely give me a few extra inches when cleaned out too.  

Click the pix for the short video.




Unfortunately I actually have to do some manual labor... pick and shovel work to clean out the ditches.  I swung the hammer bit side to side to be sure the rocks were broken well.  [ouch]

When installing the boards behind the posts you can stand inside the building area.  There is really nothing that has to be done standing outside the posts.  

[glenn kangiser]

Thinking about the French Drain a bit more, John.  I see what you are talking about I think if the drain was done after the wall as we had to do at MikeyB's place - yes getting in there to place it would be impossible with 3 inches clearance.

Hopefully above I made it clear that the drain is placed on a Uhouse before the posts and wall boards are installed if using piers.  Also using the flex drain pipe which I recommend rather than sewer leach line, a small jog could be made around the pier without problem.  Also it would not hurt for the drain to come under the wall a bit and be filled with rock.  It will still keep the water out of the house as it will be taking the water at below floor level.


If using untreated posts in plastic bags per one of Mikes methods, I would use much more care in making sure that the water never did make it down the walls as it will surely get into the bags and rot the posts off.  Mike had the problem in his Ridge House but attributed it to rain as the roof was not covered.  I would suggest being sure to put the secondary roof umbrella to the ten feet out if possible.  Remember also that the uphill patio is used to keep water from coming down hill from above, and getting to be a problem in the first place.  24 inches of rain per year makes around 15 gallons of water per square foot of roof or ground area that needs to be drained away.

[glenn kangiser]

Here is a short video on recognizing hazard areas on Uhouse excavations by looking at and understanding the ground structure and what it is telling you.  Sand could indicate that the entire wall area is unstable. 

Looking at the ground and rock structure here tells me that sides are relatively stable as we cut down the edges of the sedimentary rock layers.   

The front and back walls are more unstable as anything that slopes toward the excavation can slide off in a massive chunk.  Parts sloping away can have pieces fall off into the excavation also, such as on the back wall.  I knock those areas loose with the machine or dig them loose from the top with a shovel or bar.  Walk around the top of the excavation periodically before working inside and during work progress if necessary and watch for cracks or other potential problems.  Better safe than squishy...

Click the pix for a short video.

[ben2go]

Great posts.I think I am starting to grasp the basics.

[glenn kangiser]

I'm glad it is of use to you, Ben.  If there is anything that is not clear please ask for further explanation.  

Sassy wanted more clarification on the location of the drain.  I put it right on the outside of the piers and at the outer edge of the wall as the moisture barrier will shed it directly down from the eof the wall - too far out and water may run in under the wall.  There is  a chance of a bit of dampness at the wall edge but by sloping the French drain away to daylight and having it near the wall it should remove the water as fast as possible. 

With looser soil the moisture should continue on down and with tight packed clay, claystone or rock as we have a lot here, it should drain away in the lower than floor level French drain bottom before it has much time to soak into the floor becoming a problem.  I would keep the top of the French drain a minimum of 1 inch below the finished floor and taper from there toward daylight.

[glenn kangiser]

Getting back to helping my buddy who helped me with the cow fence.

He rescued a bunch of the burn logs for his place, drug them out by the road and we loaded them up and took them down the mountain today.  I told him I could get around 20 to 30 on my trailer and I think I ended up with around 26.  



These logs were in our Telegraph fire of July 2008.  About 1/3 of them are still good.  The rest are seriously deteriorating.  Nice that some could be salvaged and put to good use.  

He recently rented a Bobcat for a day and cleaned out the excavation I dug plus dug a root cellar.  The big storms had washed quite a bit of loose topsoil in over the last couple months.

Note that the trailer is parked on top of the dry stacked rock bridge we built several months ago.  No cave-in...

[glenn kangiser]

Betsy, you said you liked the animals.....

Here is another one....



My son was here last night with his family.....

My mom and dad came down from Oregon so we had a barbecue and get together at the Underground Command Center.

The ceremonial lighting of the barbecue..... as seen here once before long ago...

Click the next two pix for short videos





A thousand spring peepers serenade us as Aaron expertly barbecues our dinner....

[glenn kangiser]

Wow - I got stickied again... [ouch]



OK .... you all know I have a problem with corporate America ripping me off.....

It starts with forced purchasing of corporate produced products made mandatory by owned code writers purchased with money from corporate lobbyists.

It then expands itself into the dairy world.....

Corporations force the little ma and pa farms out of business then create a monopoly,  take over and raise prices. 

It really started getting to me when they reduced my containers of ice cream to 1.75 quarts instead of 1/2 gallon.  It doesn't even work out in liters so they cant use that as an excuse....besides ... this is America. 

We use feet, inches, yards, cups, pints, quarts, half gallons and gallons no matter how stupid and logic defying it is.   I'm an American, dammit.....

Corporate America is ripping me off for .25 quarts of ice cream in each box and charging me the same price......

OK... calm yourself, Glenn....  mustn't get over heated about this..... no one cares about this travesty except for you.....

OK ... so I could possibly get over that given enough time and knowing that is exactly what I expect of them....but....

Now it is spreading to my chickens.....

They are beginning to think like corporate America.....




I went out to gather the eggs and what do you think I found....... hmm





THIS.....this is what I found.........










I think it is time I marched out to the chicken house and have my people talk to theirs...... this will not be tolerated.....

[Barry Broome]

Hahahaha

[ben2go]

What happen there?A miniture egg.

ME-What's so special about and egg?

HER-Well can you lay an egg?

[glenn kangiser]

I have never seen this happen before.  [ouch]

Full size chickens and a tiny little perfectly formed egg.  Maybe she needs a balloon and stent procedure?.... or a refill?