Anyone using micro hydro power?

[glenn kangiser]

Here is a table I found.  May give you an idea of available power - may not directly apply -- John's stuff is probably better.




http://www.jatsgreenpower.com/hydropower.html#Pressure%20Drop%20Table

[MountainDon]

as far as I know only the high end inverters can be stacked to get 220. But all of this stuff is so new to me theres more I don't know than what I do know.

Yep, pretty much only the pricier units, and not all of them, can be stacked to get 220/230 VAC. You might want to check into Excel invertters, only because they make a rack stackable series that do not include the battery charger that is the norm.    Might be useful / save some money? 

There's a lot to be thought out. You'd likely need batteries if you have a low output hydro system??  So those could be placed near the source and save on the long distance DC transmission.     

[John_C]

Nah!   I like your table better.  Its a lot simpler for the average person to use.

The big question becomes how much potential do you need for it to be worth the expense???

With his original Parameters there would only be 4 or 5 watts available.  IMO that wouldn't be worth the cost of the wire to run 200 - 300 ft to the house. 

Is there some sort of $ expenditure / watt    at which this alternative becomes practical?

DIY hydro was a very small but growing cottage industry in my area when I built my house.  Some environmental regulations came into effect that said you had to return any diverted water to the source at exactly the same temperature.  We are on the southern end of the trout habitat. The concern was that ponds and mini dams would raise water temps enough to kill off the trout.  The regs did kill off the mini hydro movement.

[glenn kangiser]

I would put it at this-- Solar panels cost around $5 per watt. 

100 watts would cost $500 but be available only when there was sun. 

Wind  cost $2.50 per watt plus tower or build it,  but available only when there is wind and you can store it. 

If Larry can get enough height farther up the creek he could get something more useful 24 hours per day.

[peternap]

There is another way to look at it Larry. Storage capacity vs generation capacity.

This always prompts rude comments from the power geeks at Otherpower.

It is a long run but you will be producing 24 hours a day, You also have solar and I expect you will have some wind also.
Your battery bank has X capacity and then you just shunt the controller or dump it to a heater or something.

Sure you have line losses but you also have more power than you can use right now. You can upgrade to a 120 delivery system as your needs expand.

I have a water pump that I get water from the spring to the storage tank. I run it every 3 weeks or so. I use water hose and the joints leak some. So what! The tanks gets full. If I went to the expense of installing long runs of larger PVC, the tank would fill a little faster. Is it worth the extra expense......NO

[BiggKidd]

Hi Guys,

  I would like to think you all for your help. The tables are great. I am pretty sure that I can get more height like suggested. If we can gain some usable power even if its not enough for everything its better than nothing. We have a good size battery bank now and a small solar bank. We do plan on adding wind also. That article that Glenn posted was very interesting. If I can divert the flow of that big creek by closing it down in size that might gain us the best result. When I get back up I will be sure to take some pictures and post them. I have to work again this weekend so hopefully next weekend. Since anything I do will hopefully stay under the radar this may work out ok.

  I didn't make it on yesterday. Cut the crud out of the finger I type with.lol yep hunt and peck with one finger.

Have a great day.
Larry

[glenn kangiser]

I hope it wasn't your good one.

[ScottA]

I'm not sure what the laws are in your area but here in Oklahoma waterways with a certain amount of flow (not sure of the exact amout) can't be damed or diverted without permission from the Dept of enviromental quality. Also some waterways are considered public right of ways which also restricts what you can do so far as daming them. Many of these laws are very old going back over 100 years. We have a creek on our ranch that has an average width of 20 feet and depth of about 3 feet. It is considered a public right of way and can't be damed up or diverted.

[peternap]

Scott, the riparian laws do get sticky at times but I can assure you, his is not a public waterway. It can't be navigated more than a few feet.

We are a long way from any government agencies and they just got another  budget cut. One thing about being small is that you don't get noticed.

Larry, I meant to ask you, do you have your battery shed ventilated? It;s too early for the 4th of July.

[BiggKidd]

Peternap,

  Yes its vented. I used an old floor register in one end. But don't forget I am using those batteries that have almost NO out gassing.

ScottA,

I doubt anything I do will be noticed by anyone other than hunters. And if I do it right it will appear natural not man made. But who knows if it will work at all. The small creek I am planning to start with will never get bothered but the big creek could. Maybe

  Larry

[BiggKidd]

Hi,

You guys who are familer with electronics could you tell me if one of these would make a good small generator or alternator for a hydro or wind power system?

38 VDC Servo
Motor
ITEM 10-2351
$39.95
• New, Ametek permanent magnet servo
motor. Also makes excellent DC generator.
Four small tapped holes on back for
mounting a sensor.
SPECIFICATIONS • Rotation reversible
• Voltage 38 VDC • Shaft
• Amps 0.2 (no load) ⅝˝ dia. x 1¼˝ smooth
• Max. current 12 amps • Auxiliary shaft
• 1150 RPM (no load) 3/16˝ dia. x ⅜˝ at rear
• Mount 4 tapped holes • Size 4˝ dia. x 4½˝
on face 3¼˝ sq. • Shpg. 7 lbs.

I am thinking this would be well suited to a small system without a lot of power. What do you think?

Larry

[peternap]

They are excellent for generation (and highly prized).
They are Drive motors on the old computer tape systems.

The output is a little light...but very reliable.

[glenn kangiser]

I need to do one of those some day.  I agree -- good one.

Poor Mans Guides has a good book on making cheap blades and lots more.

[BiggKidd]

Peter Glenn,

  Thanks I found that one at surplus center for $39. Haven't ordered yet. I want to check a few things first. I can't wait to get back upto the property SOON.

  Larry

[BiggKidd]

Hi Guys,

Just found this tonight.

http://www.windbluepower.com/Wind_Blue_Motor_Hydro_Permanent_Magnet_Alternator_p/dc-500.htm

Do you think that would work well for a small hydro setup?
Also check these low and high speed wind gen.s

http://www.windbluepower.com/Wind_Blue_Power_Lite_Breeze_Complete_Low_Wind_Kit_p/cy-low-kit.htm

http://www.windbluepower.com/Wind_Blue_Power_Breeze_Complete_High_Wind_Kit_p/cy-high-kit.htm

Their prices arn't bad. Anyone know anything about them?

Larry

[glenn kangiser]

I don't know anything about these guys -- looks like a small company but use off the shelf parts for bearings and stuff.

I like the 24v system because I am using quite a bit of power.  Here is a  link to my wind generator - Bergey XL1

It's a bit hard to nail down what works on the net sometimes.

[NM_Shooter]

That looks like a good price on the Windblue permanent magnet alternators. 

But for a small hydro system, it is going to be a challenge to turn an alternator of that size fast enough.

You can also get cheap car alternators, and since most of us have 12V readily available to power the field coil, that might work too.  I wonder if a Savonius wind turbine could spin fast enough to turn an alternator....  Hmmmm... my neighbors are going to hate me.

-f-

[BiggKidd]

Glenn,

Your link isn't working.

NM,

  Did you notice that their alternators only have to spin 1200RPM for 12 V? They have some that take even less RPM to work. But I think I can get 1500 RPM or better and use this one. It puts out upto 120 + amps. Guess I need to get to work building the system sooner rather than later. I just got off the phone with the guy who helps me with my alternators & stuff. He thinks the PM alternator might work pretty well for a Hydro setup.

Thanks
Larry

[glenn kangiser]

It was Peter Naps fault -- he gave me a senior moment.

http://www.bergey.com/  click on the XL1 information - no direct link

[glenn kangiser]

The problem with using 12v to power the field is that it may eat up more power than you make.  I think the permanent magnet fields are the only way to go.

I'd study some of the small hydro sites on the net or otherpower forum etc. and see what they are doing.  A lot of them build their own but always using permanent magnets any more.  I would also have concerns about not being able to get the speed you need with the alternator with your small hydro..

[glenn kangiser]

That looks like a good price on the Windblue permanent magnet alternators. 

But for a small hydro system, it is going to be a challenge to turn an alternator of that size fast enough.

You can also get cheap car alternators, and since most of us have 12V readily available to power the field coil, that might work too.  I wonder if a Savonius wind turbine could spin fast enough to turn an alternator....  Hmmmm... my neighbors are going to hate me.

-f-

The Savonius could likely be geared up through chains or belts at some loss of power.  They only go about 400 rpm max I think so the home built  rim mounted generator shown on the one I linked in the other topic about the wind turbine might be best.

[NM_Shooter]

NM,

  Did you notice that their alternators only have to spin 1200RPM for 12 V? They have some that take even less RPM to work. But I think I can get 1500 RPM or better and use this one. It puts out upto 120 + amps. Guess I need to get to work building the system sooner rather than later. I just got off the phone with the guy who helps me with my alternators & stuff. He thinks the PM alternator might work pretty well for a Hydro setup.

Thanks
Larry

Hi Larry, that would be 2400W output, which means you would need at least 3000W input.  Unless you have very high speed water, or lots and lots of low speed water, it is going to be very hard to get anywhere near that amount of energy out of it.

Just spinning that thing at 1200rpm would be a major accomplishment for a micro system.  I'm not even sure that qualifies as a micro system any more.  If you could spin that thing at 1200, then it makes just as much sense to use an alternator and save $200.  BTW... a car alternator only draws power from the battery before it is spinning.  Once it is running and regulating it still provides power even if the field power is switched off.  For a micro system I would be tempted to use the generator from the savonious turbine note.

Please keep us informed of your progress!  I find this thread very interesting.

-f-

[BiggKidd]

NM, Glenn,

I don't have any idea where this is going but its fun. I like playing with things mechanical. That and love to take on impossible projects that will never work. So I am going to have to try. Its on my list of things to do. Besides my gut tells me I can make it work.


Question: Do these Things To Do Lists ever get smaller???

Larry

[glenn kangiser]

No as a matter of fact they continue to grow larger until death-- soon you will be sitting around like me doing nothing because you don't even have a clue where to get started.

PS -- don't ask your wife --- she is likely more organized and will come up with something.

[MountainDon]

Other than my comments on the electrical side of this question a ways back in this thread I haven't said too much. But I have a burning question that, to me, must be answered before expending much energy in building this.

That question is actually two;   1.  What is the actual drop of the water source to point of use?
                                           2.  What is the actual flow rate?

Without those numbers you can't tell if the effort will ever result in usable electrical power, or power at a cost effective rate of return.

As a part of that what is the length of pipe required from source to water wheel location? There are piping losses; larger diameter pipes have lower losses and higher material costs.

The final part is then what is the distance from the generator position to the point of electrical use? As I mentioned way back, there are electrical losses that are especially high with low voltage systems. Similarly larger diameter cables have lower losses and higher material costs.

Sorry for being the 'wet blanket' at the party but, to me, those questions need accurate answers, not guesses. One of the reasons I held off on the above comments is that I don't have a solution to offer as to how to determine an accurate flow rate. The head is a simple survey matter.