Anyone using micro hydro power?

[BiggKidd]

  Hi All,

Just wondering if any of you are using or know about micro hydro? I think I can come up with a few gallons a min (2-3) @ 10 - 20 feet of head. I may be able to get more than that but wont know until I can get down there with a transit. This is during the wet season. But if I can build it cheap & use it half the year every year I should be money ahead.


I am planning to make my own wheel and all of the othere parts of the mechanical side. I have no idea how I will do the electric side yet. I would like to make enough power to supply our needs but I doubt thats possible. I would like to use a ready made permenate magnet motor.
Any ideas?

Larry 

[Redoverfarm]

Larry from one's I have talked to they usully construct a paddle wheel on the end of a generator shaft which charges batteries.  You have to have some serious flow in the water to use a invertor direct.  The wheel will have to be large enough to allow the generator to be well off the water surface.  The larger the wheel the slower the charge rate. Smaller will turn it faster. I think

[muldoon]

I have not done anything with this yet, but have read a bit and am quite interested in the implementation.  If you get anywhere with it, please post back the process and results. 

Anyway, if you have not already done so, check out
http://www.waterwheelfactory.com/
and
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_hydro.html

specifically check out some of the homemade setups from otherpower for some inspiration and ideas.. 
http://www.otherpower.com/scotthydro1.html
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_waterwheel.html

[MountainDon]

The most efficient type of water wheel is the Pelton water wheel. It consists of a series of cups around the circumference. Water is directed at the cups via a nozzle or jet. IIRC efficiency reaches 90%, much higher than those any other water wheel. You'd probably have to buy the wheel, housing and nozzle/jet though.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl_lester_pelton.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel

http://www.theenergyguy.com/HydropowerSystem.html

[NM_Shooter]

I've always been intrigued by this.  In high school, the physics class was challenged by the instructor to build a generator in the creek out back that was capable of lighting a small light bulb in the classroom.  They worked weekends and after school to accomplish it, and were successful (we need more teachers like that).

Near Creede Colorado, my favorite campground in the world is 30-mile campground (www.recreation.gov).  Just behind this campground is/was an old resort.  I think it was called 30 mile resort.  A couple of years ago, they had a fire and one or two cabins were destroyed, and I think the inspector red tagged the whole place.  I don't know if it is back open or not.  Anyway, this resort is on Squaw Creek, and the first time I was up there I found a 55 gallon drum pipeline filled with diverted water from the creek.  Turns out that the original owner of the resort (back in the '30's I think) built a hydroelectric facility to provide DC power to the resort.  This pipeline must run 200 yards or so, flanking the creek, all drums welded together or clamped, and terminating at the generator house.  I don't know what sort of head pressure they get, but it must be 15 or 20 feet, maybe more.  It provided power for lighting for the whole resort. 

I had always thought that a bicycle generator would be a nice little DC genset for a mini-hyro plant. 

[peternap]

The Bigkidd has a design he's working on that he thinks will beat a Pelton on a low head, high volume, creek. Considering his track record, I'd say to count on it working!

[BiggKidd]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the links and ideas. I have been researching this for the better part of a year now. Peternap's right I do have another screwy idea I would like to try. I'm just worried about getting a generator sized up right to it. I think I will start off by trying to get a small dam built and pipe laid. Then see just what I have to work with. My design is closer to the Banki design and still in the idea stage. The Banki seems like there would be lots of parisitic drag when the water passes through the wheel. I don't know how one could check this. I think that with todays materials and home owner available tools that better can be acomplished.

  Peternap,

I think I am going to do a test run with the small creek. The big creek is more than I want to tackle starting off. You don't have a drive wheel off of a motorcycle laying around do you?

Larry

[Redoverfarm]

No Larry but I think he has a couple "whizzer" wheels around. 

[BiggKidd]

 Guys check out this little set up. Looks pretty neat.

://hometown.aol.com/slee529282/bturb.htm

Larry

[ScottA]

I can't wait to see this contraption...Whizzer wheel hooked up to an alternator...maybe some old licence plates for blades on the wheel...should be interesting

[BiggKidd]

No Larry but I think he has a couple "whizzer" wheels around. 

Yep I bet youre right

Larry

[BiggKidd]

I can't wait to see this contraption...Whizzer wheel hooked up to an alternator...maybe some old licence plates for blades on the wheel...should be interesting

Whats up with this Scott? You have a camera on my driveway or what? 

Larry

[ScottA]

Big brother is always watching. 

[glenn kangiser]

Maybe more efficient -- check this out -- I studied it a few years ago.  It put out more power than it was supposed to I read.

http://www.frank.germano.com/theschaubergerpage.htm

[BiggKidd]

Maybe more efficient -- check this out -- I studied it a few years ago.  It put out more power than it was supposed to I read.

http://www.frank.germano.com/theschaubergerpage.htm

Hey Glenn,

Thanks for the link. I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet but what I have read looks interesting.

Have you guys noticed that most all of the professional hydro systems were patented around a hundred years ago? Wonder why theres nothing new.

Larry

[glenn kangiser]

I thought that was an interesting concept - I think the water is made to swirl - counterclockwise in the north hemisphere? or may not matter in this app, then as it is swirling the power of the swirling water helps drive the blades at the end of the generator --it picks up the added energy -- for the short simple picture I get of it.

[John_C]

BiggKidd
   I briefly looked at the schaubergerpage and it raises a question that came to me when I first saw your post.  His calculations start with flow of 5 cu. ft. /sec.  That's  177 cu. ft.  or 1327 gallon per second (79,620 gal / min).
    Have you seen any references to anyone getting a practical amount of electricity out of the 2 to 3 gallon per minute you anticipate?  Most applications I've seen have some combination of substantially higher volume, velocity, or head.
     I'd love to see you succeed at this but it seems to me there isn't very much energy there.  How far is the stream from where you will need the power?  Line losses could eat up much of what is there.   

[glenn kangiser]

You are right about that, John C.  I forgot that when I read his spec earlier, he didn't have a lot of flow or pressure.

[John_C]

The sad part is I don't want to be right. 

I've bumped into a few people in my area that have built their own hydro rigs.  I don't have any potential on my own property so I never really looked into it but they would talk about their stream not having much flow ... "Maybe 20 or so cfs" (cubic feet per second).  That still a bunch of water compared to what BiggKidd has.

[BiggKidd]

John C, Glenn,

 When I first posted I did say 2 or 3 gal a min. But in truth I have not checked or measured it. I am sure there is a bit more than that. If I ever make it back I will check a little better. With work and weather I don't know when that will be. Also we have two creeks one huge.





 Thats our big creek I don't have any pics of the small creek. That was taken in August of a very dry year the small creek was dry at that time. But my understanding is that is the first time it has gone dry. The big creek there doesn't have much fall. We only own about 100-150 feet along the creek. The smaller creek makes up the whole back line of our land and the big creek runs along one small corner where the two meet.

  The big creek is about 700 to 1000 feet from where we want to build. The smaller creek is only a few hundred feet. I know thats still a long ways but I think (hope) it can be done.

Last time we were up there the small creek had a steady flow about 8 inchs wide and an inch deep crossing the high spots. I am no expert but that seems like a good bit of water. Once I get down there with my transit and take some measurements I will know a lot more. If we could get 10 amps continuious with a 12 V system that adds up to quite a bit of power. With transmission losses we may end up going to a higher voltage system to keep costs down.

 Thanks for all the help.

Larry

[MountainDon]

If the "few hundred feet" means 300 feet that is a very long haul for 12 VDC unless you have mammoth sized wire.

12 VDC, 10 amps, 300 feet one way, using 4/0 copper wire would have a voltage drop of 3%, which is in the acceptable in a 12 VDC system. 4/0 is hugely expensive.

Much better to plan of going to at least 48 VDC, or higher if you can. If you could run 48 VDC, that would be 2.5 amps for the same wattage, and you could run 6 gauge wire for a voltage drop of 1.53%

[MountainDon]

for 200 feet one way...

48 VDC, 2.5 amps = 8 gauge wire for 1.6% volt drop;

12 VDC, 10 amps = 3/0 wire for 2.55% voltage drop

[NM_Shooter]

Also keep in mind that high current DC lines have a tendency to promote galvanic reactions at connection points.  I'd be tempted to convert to AC at the source, step it up with a power transformer, and run that.  Expensive though.

You could also use DC/DC converters like the ones made by Vicor (www.vicr.com).  You could boost that 12V or 24V up to 72V or more, and even be isolated from your source if you want.  Then back at the endpoint convert back from whatever you had (after line loss) to a very well regulated 12V or 15V or whatever.

Some of the Vicor power modules are approaching 98% efficiency (depending on voltage and load).

Good luck!  Sounds like fun.

-f-

[BiggKidd]

Thanks Don and NM,

  I don't know that much about electricty YET.  Sooner or later I'll get it strait though.  Or get . No seriously I was thinking of making unregulated AC and transforming it after it reaches the power shed. But like I said I realy know nothing about electricty. It might be easier to move the power shed to the creek. Then I could use burried cable to transmit 110 or 220 AC. If I try to end up with 220v Ac thats going to mean a lot more money in the inverter(s). Because as far as I know only the high end inverters can be stacked to get 220. But all of this stuff is so new to me theres more I don't know than what I do know.

  Lots to learn.
Larry 

[John_C]

This page in Wikipedia has the formulas for calculating how much power in watts you will have available
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropower#Physics

It's more interesting to think about the nuts & bolts of the system, but I think you should first do a calculation of how much power is available to you.  The flow rates are in cu. meters /second.     1 cu.m./s  =   262gal/sec

It is noteworthy that the Power goes up in proportion to the velocity squared....  velocity is your friend.