Hi All,
Just wondering if any of you are using or know about micro hydro? I think I can come up with a few gallons a min (2-3) @ 10 - 20 feet of head. I may be able to get more than that but wont know until I can get down there with a transit. This is during the wet season. But if I can build it cheap & use it half the year every year I should be money ahead.
I am planning to make my own wheel and all of the othere parts of the mechanical side. I have no idea how I will do the electric side yet. I would like to make enough power to supply our needs but I doubt thats possible. I would like to use a ready made permenate magnet motor.
Any ideas?
Larry
Larry from one's I have talked to they usully construct a paddle wheel on the end of a generator shaft which charges batteries. You have to have some serious flow in the water to use a invertor direct. The wheel will have to be large enough to allow the generator to be well off the water surface. The larger the wheel the slower the charge rate. Smaller will turn it faster. I think d*
I have not done anything with this yet, but have read a bit and am quite interested in the implementation. If you get anywhere with it, please post back the process and results.
Anyway, if you have not already done so, check out
http://www.waterwheelfactory.com/
and
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_hydro.html
specifically check out some of the homemade setups from otherpower for some inspiration and ideas..
http://www.otherpower.com/scotthydro1.html
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_waterwheel.html
The most efficient type of water wheel is the Pelton water wheel. It consists of a series of cups around the circumference. Water is directed at the cups via a nozzle or jet. IIRC efficiency reaches 90%, much higher than those any other water wheel. You'd probably have to buy the wheel, housing and nozzle/jet though.
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bl_lester_pelton.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel
http://www.theenergyguy.com/HydropowerSystem.html
I've always been intrigued by this. In high school, the physics class was challenged by the instructor to build a generator in the creek out back that was capable of lighting a small light bulb in the classroom. They worked weekends and after school to accomplish it, and were successful (we need more teachers like that).
Near Creede Colorado, my favorite campground in the world is 30-mile campground (www.recreation.gov). Just behind this campground is/was an old resort. I think it was called 30 mile resort. A couple of years ago, they had a fire and one or two cabins were destroyed, and I think the inspector red tagged the whole place. I don't know if it is back open or not. Anyway, this resort is on Squaw Creek, and the first time I was up there I found a 55 gallon drum pipeline filled with diverted water from the creek. Turns out that the original owner of the resort (back in the '30's I think) built a hydroelectric facility to provide DC power to the resort. This pipeline must run 200 yards or so, flanking the creek, all drums welded together or clamped, and terminating at the generator house. I don't know what sort of head pressure they get, but it must be 15 or 20 feet, maybe more. It provided power for lighting for the whole resort.
I had always thought that a bicycle generator would be a nice little DC genset for a mini-hyro plant.
The Bigkidd has a design he's working on that he thinks will beat a Pelton on a low head, high volume, creek. Considering his track record, I'd say to count on it working! :)
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the links and ideas. I have been researching this for the better part of a year now. Peternap's right I do have another screwy idea I would like to try. I'm just worried about getting a generator sized up right to it. I think I will start off by trying to get a small dam built and pipe laid. Then see just what I have to work with. My design is closer to the Banki design and still in the idea stage. The Banki seems like there would be lots of parisitic drag when the water passes through the wheel. I don't know how one could check this. I think that with todays materials and home owner available tools that better can be acomplished.
Peternap,
I think I am going to do a test run with the small creek. The big creek is more than I want to tackle starting off. You don't have a drive wheel off of a motorcycle laying around do you?
Larry
No Larry but I think he has a couple "whizzer" wheels around. ;)
Guys check out this little set up. Looks pretty neat.
://hometown.aol.com/slee529282/bturb.htm
Larry
I can't wait to see this contraption...Whizzer wheel hooked up to an alternator...maybe some old licence plates for blades on the wheel...should be interesting
Quote from: Redoverfarm on April 15, 2008, 06:33:43 PM
No Larry but I think he has a couple "whizzer" wheels around. ;)
Yep I bet youre right
Larry
Quote from: ScottA on April 15, 2008, 06:50:38 PM
I can't wait to see this contraption...Whizzer wheel hooked up to an alternator...maybe some old licence plates for blades on the wheel...should be interesting
Whats up with this Scott? You have a camera on my driveway or what? :)
Larry
Big brother is always watching. 8)
Maybe more efficient -- check this out -- I studied it a few years ago. It put out more power than it was supposed to I read.
http://www.frank.germano.com/theschaubergerpage.htm
Quote from: glenn kangiser on April 16, 2008, 01:38:26 AM
Maybe more efficient -- check this out -- I studied it a few years ago. It put out more power than it was supposed to I read.
http://www.frank.germano.com/theschaubergerpage.htm
Hey Glenn,
Thanks for the link. I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet but what I have read looks interesting.
Have you guys noticed that most all of the professional hydro systems were patented around a hundred years ago? Wonder why theres nothing new.
Larry
I thought that was an interesting concept - I think the water is made to swirl - counterclockwise in the north hemisphere? or may not matter in this app, then as it is swirling the power of the swirling water helps drive the blades at the end of the generator --it picks up the added energy -- for the short simple picture I get of it.
BiggKidd
I briefly looked at the schaubergerpage and it raises a question that came to me when I first saw your post. His calculations start with flow of 5 cu. ft. /sec. That's 177 cu. ft. or 1327 gallon per second (79,620 gal / min).
Have you seen any references to anyone getting a practical amount of electricity out of the 2 to 3 gallon per minute you anticipate? Most applications I've seen have some combination of substantially higher volume, velocity, or head.
I'd love to see you succeed at this but it seems to me there isn't very much energy there. How far is the stream from where you will need the power? Line losses could eat up much of what is there. :(
You are right about that, John C. I forgot that when I read his spec earlier, he didn't have a lot of flow or pressure.
The sad part is I don't want to be right.
I've bumped into a few people in my area that have built their own hydro rigs. I don't have any potential on my own property so I never really looked into it but they would talk about their stream not having much flow ... "Maybe 20 or so cfs" (cubic feet per second). That still a bunch of water compared to what BiggKidd has.
John C, Glenn,
When I first posted I did say 2 or 3 gal a min. But in truth I have not checked or measured it. I am sure there is a bit more than that. :-[ If I ever make it back I will check a little better. With work and weather I don't know when that will be. :( Also we have two creeks one huge.
(https://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/biggkidds/th_006-1.jpg) (https://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/biggkidds/006-1.jpg)
(https://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/biggkidds/th_008-2.jpg) (https://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/biggkidds/008-2.jpg)
Thats our big creek I don't have any pics of the small creek. That was taken in August of a very dry year the small creek was dry at that time. But my understanding is that is the first time it has gone dry. The big creek there doesn't have much fall. We only own about 100-150 feet along the creek. The smaller creek makes up the whole back line of our land and the big creek runs along one small corner where the two meet.
The big creek is about 700 to 1000 feet from where we want to build. The smaller creek is only a few hundred feet. I know thats still a long ways but I think (hope) it can be done.
Last time we were up there the small creek had a steady flow about 8 inchs wide and an inch deep crossing the high spots. I am no expert but that seems like a good bit of water. Once I get down there with my transit and take some measurements I will know a lot more. If we could get 10 amps continuious with a 12 V system that adds up to quite a bit of power. With transmission losses we may end up going to a higher voltage system to keep costs down.
Thanks for all the help.
Larry
If the "few hundred feet" means 300 feet that is a very long haul for 12 VDC unless you have mammoth sized wire.
12 VDC, 10 amps, 300 feet one way, using 4/0 copper wire would have a voltage drop of 3%, which is in the acceptable in a 12 VDC system. 4/0 is hugely expensive.
Much better to plan of going to at least 48 VDC, or higher if you can. If you could run 48 VDC, that would be 2.5 amps for the same wattage, and you could run 6 gauge wire for a voltage drop of 1.53%
for 200 feet one way...
48 VDC, 2.5 amps = 8 gauge wire for 1.6% volt drop;
12 VDC, 10 amps = 3/0 wire for 2.55% voltage drop
Also keep in mind that high current DC lines have a tendency to promote galvanic reactions at connection points. I'd be tempted to convert to AC at the source, step it up with a power transformer, and run that. Expensive though.
You could also use DC/DC converters like the ones made by Vicor (www.vicr.com). You could boost that 12V or 24V up to 72V or more, and even be isolated from your source if you want. Then back at the endpoint convert back from whatever you had (after line loss) to a very well regulated 12V or 15V or whatever.
Some of the Vicor power modules are approaching 98% efficiency (depending on voltage and load).
Good luck! Sounds like fun.
-f-
Thanks Don and NM,
I don't know that much about electricty YET. d* Sooner or later I'll get it strait though. Or get [shocked] . No seriously I was thinking of making unregulated AC and transforming it after it reaches the power shed. But like I said I realy know nothing about electricty. It might be easier to move the power shed to the creek. Then I could use burried cable to transmit 110 or 220 AC. If I try to end up with 220v Ac thats going to mean a lot more money in the inverter(s). Because as far as I know only the high end inverters can be stacked to get 220. But all of this stuff is so new to me theres more I don't know than what I do know. ???
Lots to learn.
Larry
This page in Wikipedia has the formulas for calculating how much power in watts you will have available
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropower#Physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropower#Physics)
It's more interesting to think about the nuts & bolts of the system, but I think you should first do a calculation of how much power is available to you. The flow rates are in cu. meters /second. 1 cu.m./s = 262gal/sec
It is noteworthy that the Power goes up in proportion to the velocity squared.... velocity is your friend.
Here is a table I found. May give you an idea of available power - may not directly apply -- John's stuff is probably better.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/powertable.jpg)
http://www.jatsgreenpower.com/hydropower.html#Pressure%20Drop%20Table
Quote from: BiggKidd on April 16, 2008, 10:27:59 PM
as far as I know only the high end inverters can be stacked to get 220. But all of this stuff is so new to me theres more I don't know than what I do know. ???
Yep, pretty much only the pricier units, and not all of them, can be stacked to get 220/230 VAC. You might want to check into Excel invertters, only because they make a rack stackable series that do not include the battery charger that is the norm. ??? Might be useful / save some money? ???
There's a lot to be thought out. You'd likely need batteries if you have a low output hydro system?? ??? So those could be placed near the source and save on the long distance DC transmission. ??? :-\
Nah! I like your table better. Its a lot simpler for the average person to use.
The big question becomes how much potential do you need for it to be worth the expense???
With his original Parameters there would only be 4 or 5 watts available. IMO that wouldn't be worth the cost of the wire to run 200 - 300 ft to the house.
Is there some sort of $ expenditure / watt at which this alternative becomes practical????
DIY hydro was a very small but growing cottage industry in my area when I built my house. Some environmental regulations came into effect that said you had to return any diverted water to the source at exactly the same temperature. We are on the southern end of the trout habitat. The concern was that ponds and mini dams would raise water temps enough to kill off the trout. The regs did kill off the mini hydro movement.
I would put it at this-- Solar panels cost around $5 per watt.
100 watts would cost $500 but be available only when there was sun.
Wind cost $2.50 per watt plus tower or build it, but available only when there is wind and you can store it.
If Larry can get enough height farther up the creek he could get something more useful 24 hours per day.
There is another way to look at it Larry. Storage capacity vs generation capacity.
This always prompts rude comments from the power geeks at Otherpower.
It is a long run but you will be producing 24 hours a day, You also have solar and I expect you will have some wind also.
Your battery bank has X capacity and then you just shunt the controller or dump it to a heater or something.
Sure you have line losses but you also have more power than you can use right now. You can upgrade to a 120 delivery system as your needs expand.
I have a water pump that I get water from the spring to the storage tank. I run it every 3 weeks or so. I use water hose and the joints leak some. So what! The tanks gets full. If I went to the expense of installing long runs of larger PVC, the tank would fill a little faster. Is it worth the extra expense......NO
Hi Guys,
I would like to think you all for your help. The tables are great. I am pretty sure that I can get more height like suggested. If we can gain some usable power even if its not enough for everything its better than nothing. We have a good size battery bank now and a small solar bank. We do plan on adding wind also. That article that Glenn posted was very interesting. If I can divert the flow of that big creek by closing it down in size that might gain us the best result. When I get back up I will be sure to take some pictures and post them. I have to work again this weekend so hopefully next weekend. Since anything I do will hopefully stay under the radar this may work out ok.
I didn't make it on yesterday. Cut the crud out of the finger I type with.lol yep hunt and peck with one finger. [frus]
Have a great day.
Larry
I hope it wasn't your good one. [crz]
I'm not sure what the laws are in your area but here in Oklahoma waterways with a certain amount of flow (not sure of the exact amout) can't be damed or diverted without permission from the Dept of enviromental quality. Also some waterways are considered public right of ways which also restricts what you can do so far as daming them. Many of these laws are very old going back over 100 years. We have a creek on our ranch that has an average width of 20 feet and depth of about 3 feet. It is considered a public right of way and can't be damed up or diverted.
Scott, the riparian laws do get sticky at times but I can assure you, his is not a public waterway. It can't be navigated more than a few feet.
We are a long way from any government agencies and they just got another budget cut. One thing about being small is that you don't get noticed.
Larry, I meant to ask you, do you have your battery shed ventilated? It;s too early for the 4th of July. :o
Peternap,
Yes its vented. I used an old floor register in one end. But don't forget I am using those batteries that have almost NO out gassing.
ScottA,
I doubt anything I do will be noticed by anyone other than hunters. And if I do it right it will appear natural not man made. But who knows if it will work at all. The small creek I am planning to start with will never get bothered but the big creek could. Maybe ???
Larry
Hi,
You guys who are familer with electronics could you tell me if one of these would make a good small generator or alternator for a hydro or wind power system?
38 VDC Servo
Motor
ITEM 10-2351
$39.95
• New, Ametek permanent magnet servo
motor. Also makes excellent DC generator.
Four small tapped holes on back for
mounting a sensor.
SPECIFICATIONS • Rotation reversible
• Voltage 38 VDC • Shaft
• Amps 0.2 (no load) ⅝˝ dia. x 1¼˝ smooth
• Max. current 12 amps • Auxiliary shaft
• 1150 RPM (no load) 3/16˝ dia. x ⅜˝ at rear
• Mount 4 tapped holes • Size 4˝ dia. x 4½˝
on face 3¼˝ sq. • Shpg. 7 lbs.
I am thinking this would be well suited to a small system without a lot of power. What do you think?
Larry
They are excellent for generation (and highly prized).
They are Drive motors on the old computer tape systems.
The output is a little light...but very reliable.
I need to do one of those some day. I agree -- good one.
Poor Mans Guides has a good book on making cheap blades and lots more.
Peter Glenn,
Thanks I found that one at surplus center for $39. Haven't ordered yet. I want to check a few things first. I can't wait to get back upto the property SOON.
Larry
Hi Guys,
Just found this tonight.
http://www.windbluepower.com/Wind_Blue_Motor_Hydro_Permanent_Magnet_Alternator_p/dc-500.htm
Do you think that would work well for a small hydro setup?
Also check these low and high speed wind gen.s
http://www.windbluepower.com/Wind_Blue_Power_Lite_Breeze_Complete_Low_Wind_Kit_p/cy-low-kit.htm
http://www.windbluepower.com/Wind_Blue_Power_Breeze_Complete_High_Wind_Kit_p/cy-high-kit.htm
Their prices arn't bad. Anyone know anything about them?
Larry
I don't know anything about these guys -- looks like a small company but use off the shelf parts for bearings and stuff.
I like the 24v system because I am using quite a bit of power. Here is a link to my wind generator - Bergey XL1
It's a bit hard to nail down what works on the net sometimes.
That looks like a good price on the Windblue permanent magnet alternators.
But for a small hydro system, it is going to be a challenge to turn an alternator of that size fast enough.
You can also get cheap car alternators, and since most of us have 12V readily available to power the field coil, that might work too. I wonder if a Savonius wind turbine could spin fast enough to turn an alternator.... Hmmmm... my neighbors are going to hate me.
-f-
Glenn,
Your link isn't working. ???
NM,
Did you notice that their alternators only have to spin 1200RPM for 12 V? They have some that take even less RPM to work. But I think I can get 1500 RPM or better and use this one. It puts out upto 120 + amps. Guess I need to get to work building the system sooner rather than later. I just got off the phone with the guy who helps me with my alternators & stuff. He thinks the PM alternator might work pretty well for a Hydro setup.
Thanks
Larry
It was Peter Naps fault -- he gave me a senior moment. ???
http://www.bergey.com/ click on the XL1 information - no direct link
The problem with using 12v to power the field is that it may eat up more power than you make. I think the permanent magnet fields are the only way to go.
I'd study some of the small hydro sites on the net or otherpower forum etc. and see what they are doing. A lot of them build their own but always using permanent magnets any more. I would also have concerns about not being able to get the speed you need with the alternator with your small hydro..
Quote from: NM_Shooter on May 14, 2008, 08:40:17 AM
That looks like a good price on the Windblue permanent magnet alternators.
But for a small hydro system, it is going to be a challenge to turn an alternator of that size fast enough.
You can also get cheap car alternators, and since most of us have 12V readily available to power the field coil, that might work too. I wonder if a Savonius wind turbine could spin fast enough to turn an alternator.... Hmmmm... my neighbors are going to hate me.
-f-
The Savonius could likely be geared up through chains or belts at some loss of power. They only go about 400 rpm max I think so the home built rim mounted generator shown on the one I linked in the other topic about the wind turbine might be best.
Quote from: BiggKidd on May 14, 2008, 09:17:32 AM
NM,
Did you notice that their alternators only have to spin 1200RPM for 12 V? They have some that take even less RPM to work. But I think I can get 1500 RPM or better and use this one. It puts out upto 120 + amps. Guess I need to get to work building the system sooner rather than later. I just got off the phone with the guy who helps me with my alternators & stuff. He thinks the PM alternator might work pretty well for a Hydro setup.
Thanks
Larry
Hi Larry, that would be 2400W output, which means you would need at least 3000W input. Unless you have very high speed water, or lots and lots of low speed water, it is going to be very hard to get anywhere near that amount of energy out of it.
Just spinning that thing at 1200rpm would be a major accomplishment for a micro system. I'm not even sure that qualifies as a micro system any more. If you could spin that thing at 1200, then it makes just as much sense to use an alternator and save $200. BTW... a car alternator only draws power from the battery before it is spinning. Once it is running and regulating it still provides power even if the field power is switched off. For a micro system I would be tempted to use the generator from the savonious turbine note.
Please keep us informed of your progress! I find this thread very interesting.
-f-
NM, Glenn,
I don't have any idea where this is going but its fun. [cool] I like playing with things mechanical. That and love to take on impossible projects that will never work. So I am going to have to try. Its on my list of things to do. Besides my gut tells me I can make it work. heh
Question: Do these Things To Do Lists ever get smaller???
Larry
No as a matter of fact they continue to grow larger until death-- soon you will be sitting around like me doing nothing because you don't even have a clue where to get started. d*
PS -- don't ask your wife --- she is likely more organized and will come up with something. [crz]
Other than my comments on the electrical side of this question a ways back in this thread I haven't said too much. But I have a burning question that, to me, must be answered before expending much energy in building this.
That question is actually two; 1. What is the actual drop of the water source to point of use?
2. What is the actual flow rate?
Without those numbers you can't tell if the effort will ever result in usable electrical power, or power at a cost effective rate of return.
As a part of that what is the length of pipe required from source to water wheel location? There are piping losses; larger diameter pipes have lower losses and higher material costs.
The final part is then what is the distance from the generator position to the point of electrical use? As I mentioned way back, there are electrical losses that are especially high with low voltage systems. Similarly larger diameter cables have lower losses and higher material costs.
Sorry for being the 'wet blanket' at the party but, to me, those questions need accurate answers, not guesses. One of the reasons I held off on the above comments is that I don't have a solution to offer as to how to determine an accurate flow rate. The head is a simple survey matter.
Here's an interesting head/flow power calculator
http://www.nooutage.com/hydroele.htm
Good points, Don. A lot of the success/failure of this project can be determined by numbers-- With head and available flow info you can calculate the possible available power.
Here is a simple weir that can be made from plywood to calculate gallons flow per minute. I used one when drilling wells to estimate water flow.
http://www.lmnoeng.com/Weirs/vweir.htm
Glenn, Don,
First I understand about needing ACCURATE flow #s. I can only estimate until I can get out there With some decent tools and spend some time watching / testing. I know from what I have seen recently that we are also going to have to watch out and build with storm flow in mind. I learn a little more each time we go up. I have tried using my Garmin GPS to get elevations but for some reason it just isn't working right there. Works fine here and everywhere I have tried it. Almost like a giant Iron plate is under our property. So I have to do it the old way & clear lines of sight and use a transit to get the #s. I'm sorry to say I just haven't had the time. Going off the cuff with a life time of working evevations I would estimate at least 50 feet of rise and a flow during normal times of at least 5 gal. a min. A lot more I expect but I have not been able to test it yet. I don't have any experiance with water flow or flow rates so I can't make an educated guess about this. This was one of the primary reasons I built the dam. I needed it for water storage also but once I can measure the flow coming over the top I will know a lot more.
Dont forget I also have a Big creek no head to speak of but huge amounts of water. So I realy have two chances at this. A high head low flow and a low head high flow.
I do appreciate being able to bounce my silly ideas around with you guys. When I talk with the people I know most of them just look confused. Don't get me wrong they are not dumb, just don't have any idea about this type thing. Thats not saying I know any more. :)
Thanks
Larry
Hmmm.
Entering 50 ft head and 5 gpm flow into that calculator at
http://www.nooutage.com/hydroele.htm
comes up with a potential 18 watts power output. Unless that was generated right beside the point of use (the electrical use) it wouldn't do you much good.
Larry, I think with the low head situation at least on the big creek, you would be better off to go with a water wheel.
Efficiency won't matter so much if you have enough brute force.
http://ipc6.permaculturewest.org/ch08/shannon/index.html
If you do one of these don't forget safety screens etc, to prevent animals and children from running through them and ending the fun.
Don, Glenn,
Thanks for the input and links. I was planning to work on it this weekend but it looks like other things are going to grab my time. I would like to atleast fix the dam but there is only so much time.
Larry
Larry,
I have to guess that you have more than 5gpm flow, as that is pretty wimpy. That is about the equivalent of a garden hose output at roughly 23psi.
Build your dam / diverter into a small pipe and measure the flow.....
18W could be easily had with a fairly cheap solar panel. I bought a 53W panel a few years ago for $275.
-f-
A useful page on PM motor as generators. http://www.reuk.co.uk/Ametek-PM-Motors.htm
Useful info from Backwoods Solar - Using DC and AC
I went the AC 2 inverters on all the time route -- others may want to use less.
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/newsletter/articles.htm
Hey Glenn
Thanks for the links its been a while since I have been over to backwoods. Bunch of good info.
Larry
I need to keep refreshing too - brain leaks.
I find useful info there at backwoods, and a few products I haven't seen before, BUT they pretty much always seem to charge more than the place across the river from me.
They are a good place of reference but a little too steep for me. I then go looking for the dealers and price breaks on their products.
I don't think I ever bought from them - I nearly always shop.
My favorite is still Affordable Solar (http://www.affordable-solar.com/) but I also have a good look around as well.
Check this out. Note counterclockwise in the northern hemisphere.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=CSvH7OjygYs&feature=related
other links
http://www.kansaswindpower.net/hydro%20electric.htm
http://h-hydro.com/