tesa's Off Grid System

Started by tesa, January 30, 2009, 05:57:51 PM

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glenn kangiser

I have been very happy with my old Trace 4024's.  I traded a near new Xantrex 4000 watt square wave and $800 for the first used Trace 4024 Sine wave then wanted 240v so found another matching 4020 on Ebay - checked the vendor out and he seemed reliable so it cost $1500 or so. 

Synchronization cable was relatively cheap online.  240 v works great.  I have 5 sets of L16's (375 ah at 24v when series connected in a group of 4)  so looks like I could bulk charge at about 250 amps, however to keep from doing a bunch of professional wiring I just set my welder at about 140 amps and still charge well in a reasonable amount of time - maybe a couple hours if down quite a bit.  Seldom needed now except a short bit in long storms.

The Traces take care of switching- over  voltage - short - under voltage -equalization - not sure of parameters on that -  many more things are programmable as well as automatic generator start and stop if desired.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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tesa

i had heard a good way to tell about inverter quality is weight i think we're gonna go with the xantrex (sp)

we plan to make a decission tonight or tomorrow on that, as theres only so much research i can do, then
its up to the engineer, i just write the checks ;)

daniel spoke to some guys here in the magnolia area that do PV systems, and
they tried hard to convince him to go with AGM batteries, beings we're beginners

we're also gonna make a decission on that within the next few days, as i'd like to
get going on ordering

the bid out of parts on sale looks good, and i feel that her advise about components
was sound

still a bit confussed about battery charger, but i know we can forget about equilization with
the agm batteries

making some progress in other areas too, we are now in possession on 20 tons of crushed
concrete for the culvert/RV pad site

culvert being delivered friday morning

construction on the RV shed starts this saturday when we sink the poles

movin' right along!!

not to put any pressure on the old man, but i'd dearly love to be on the property by
april 1

which means we've gotta get everything purchased soon, phew, can you imagine how long this
process would have been with out the world wide web??

tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing


glenn kangiser

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

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glenn kangiser

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

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tesa

interesting stuff, i'm really beginning to understand.

i feel a bit better armed with knowledge

daniel and i came to a decission today regarding the inverter

we're gonna go with the samlex 1012a, it has a built in charger, and its weight is more than the
comperable xantrex model (according to the websites)

we're also gonna go with the bid from parts on sale

so its a done deal, except for the batteries

$3191.14 including shipping!

not too bad me thinks!

plus the cost of the generator, which was $800 and then the batteires,
so for under 5K we've got power!!

cheaper than grid tied by several thousand

phew!!

will post our final decission on the battery dilema, but it looks like its a done deal

i can't thank you all enough for going above and beyond for us

even with some hair pulling, its been rewarding to learn, and make these decissions

tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing


glenn kangiser

Our pleasure, tesa.  Please keep us informed.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

Is there a reason you are not going with the 24v system, tesa?  Wire sizes can be smaller, although you won't have a lot of big wire if neat th panels and batteries.  The BZ MPPT500 will handle it with proper jumper settings- the 2 panels can be wired series for 24v I think and the inverter is available at the same price for a 24 volt Samlex model S1024A. 

The charger 24 v at 20 A works out the same watts as 12 v at 40 amps - again - wire sizes can be smaller with less loss.  ou could ask the parts on sale people about it if you have questions.

Looks like with the panels they spec'd they will be setting you up for the 24v inverter - just a guess that these are the panels and they operate at 24v.

http://partsonsale.com/STP200_24_Ub-1_E01.01%20Sept10%202008EN.pdf
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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MountainDon

tesa, IIRC you said that the panels could be as far as 100 feet from the cabin/house location. ??? 

Check with the folks at partsonsale just how they visualize these things all being connected. Are the two panels to be connectes in parallel? Or in series?   The 210 panels have a short circuit rating of 8.33 amps. In parallel that comes to 2x 8.33 = 16.66 amps maximum current at approx 24 volts. That looks like a wire size of #1 AWG, at a voltage drop of 2.14% for a 100 ft run.  That's big wire.  :o

If the panels were in series, that would then be approx 48 volts at 8.33 amps. Over the 100 ft distance the wire could then be as small as #6 AWG.

This just hot me as I recalled something about that 80-100 ft distance. I don't mean to confuse things, but there is a big difference in wire cost. Check prices at Lowe's or someplace.

Of course the other thing that gets complicated is that charge controller may not be able to handle the voltages with the series panels.  ???


Glenn, regarding the 12 VDC vs 24 VDC... I'll wager one reason they are thinking about a 12 VDC based battery system is that they want to use a bunch of the RV lights and accessories that they have. And I have interpreted tesa's cabin/house plans to be much the same.   :-\ :-\
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

MountainDon

OKay, I just looked... if that is the BZ MPPT500 controller it's good for up to 100 VDC input, so it could handle your two panels in series. And you can charge 12, 24 or 48VDC battery banks.   [cool]


I agree that 24 VDC based systems make a lot of sense. You more batteries in series, fewer in parallel; that's better. Wires for 24 VDC can be smaller. The stumbling block is the 12 VDC requirements for lights, water pump, etc. That's a compromise you have to decide on yourself.

FYI, IF you did decide to go for the 24 VDC battery bank system, there are devices that will let you have a 12 VDC supply without using a center tap to obtain 12 VDC from the 24 VDC battery bank. But that involves an expenditure of some more $$; which would be at least partly covered by the wire savings.

Solar Converters makes some good ones.
One that changes 24 VDC to 12 VDC with a max of 20 amps at the 12 VDC end is $169 at solarseller.com


Take your time and weigh all the pros and cons before making the big jump, the commitment to a particular system.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


glenn kangiser

We have the same controller.  Here are the specs
http://www.windandsunpower.com/BZ_files/MPPT500V1%20INSTALATION%20MANUAL.pdf

Looks like it will handle 100 OCV if I read the specs right.  

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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MountainDon

re-reading the quote list I note the absence of the remote temperature sensor for the charge controller. It should be used. It allows the charge controller to adjust the charge rate up or down for temperature differences at the batteries. Batteries react and work differently at higher and lower temps.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

tesa

had a busy day, just now getting home

i've sent a msg. to my contact at parts on sale, asking about the temp. controller

also, daniel was interested in using a pole mount, vs the ground mount, so i
think they'll be working up a new quote

the array will be very close to the RV, but once we build the cabin, then, i think
it might be a greater distance, IF we keep the array where it is right now,
however, for now, i 'm thinking the array will be maby 10' from the RV, but i can see where my post was confussing

sorry

thanks for the small panic attack over the 12 volt/24 volt thing  :)

for just a second, i thought i was just gonna go bang my head against the wall, and call it
a day LOL

we do intend to use much of the same system components in the cabin, as in the RV, so we
thought 12 volts was the way to go

tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing

tesa

oh, and i think its time to revisit the "thin-lite" website

daniel says he can change out the fixtures, so i'm gonna call for
pricing tomorrow

a watt saved, is a watt earned

i'll post my results

tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing

glenn kangiser

Didn't want you becoming too confident, Tesa.  Note that you can keep the batteries and solar together with the inverter there then send 120v to the cabin over pretty small wire.  Probably number 12 or 10 gauge with little loss.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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MountainDon

Thinlites are good; we have several of their #115

http://solarseller.com/thinlite_low_voltage_12_volt_d_c__indoor_fluorescent_lighting_.htm#mod__115


I like top of pole mounts, better than ground mount.  Buy used drill pipe for the pole.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

tesa

thanks glenn, i know your just tryin' to keep it real for me, :)

you guys didn't know, but i had a very minor
accident yesterday, some road debris hit by another vehicle slammed into my van, and caused some
minor damage, we're all ok, but now i can't open my passenger side door, and i've gotta cough up
my deductable, thru no fault of my own >:(

we're all ok tho, thats the good thing

but its sort of funny/scarry but i know exactly what hit me, 'cause i can see the perfect indention of
a 2x4 in the side of my van

spooky, but thank god it didn't hit the windshiled, and with tia in the van with me too!!

so when i read that post, well, i sort of got a little emotional  silly me

daniel found a great price on the steel pipe for the pole mount

something like 20 bucks for a 10' section, i can't recall the specs on it, but he said it was what we
needed, as the parts on sale person sent us the proper requirements, 3" diam. i think and she told
us it had to go into the ground 3 feet min.

regarding the thinlights, i knew, at some point we would want to work on our light loads, after some
thought to buying more batteries vs buying new fixtures, we decided to go with the fixtures, as we
felt it would be a better investment of our funds to decrease the watt usage for lighting rather
than increase our battery bank

at 60 bucks a pop, for those lights, they aint cheep

the thinlight site didn't seem to offer any pricing, so i'm gonna call later, as its still eary here, but
we did find them on another site for 60 each plus shipping

oh, and parts on sale says it will take them three weeks to ship our order, as the pole mount
is custom

sweet! i've waited three years for this day, i can wait three weeks

tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing

glenn kangiser

Glad the accident wasn't worse, tesa. 

I get to go to the valley and be attacked by the traffic today myself.  Selling my body for money again.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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tesa

thanks, i'm glad it wasn't worse too! tia was a bit emotional, as the impact made a big sound, and of course,
my reaction was a bit, well, shall we say, abrutp "HOLY CRAP"

i've been pokin' around the solar seller dot com site that don posted, they have
great pricing on those thinlites!

i noticed some of the come with this "radio frequency interference ballast"

is that something that stops that "flickering" you get with those type of lights?

our celings are fairly low in the RV, i'm wondering if 400 lumens will be enough to
do the dishes by, and such

the #115's are 825 lumens, i wonder if i should get that one for over the couch, as thats usually
where i read

i'll be offline today as well,

have a great day in the valley!

be safe, you never know when a 2x4 is gonna fly your way ;)

tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing

MountainDon

#68
Quote from: tesa on February 12, 2009, 09:44:49 AM

i've been pokin' around the solar seller dot com site that don posted, they have
great pricing on those thinlites!


That's why I posted that link. They have consistently had the best prices I've seen on thinlites (and lots of other stuff) over many years. I also like the fact that their webpage shows in stock quantities. Fast shippers too.


Re: RFI ballasts. They reduce audible buzzing/whining interference that can occur in some cases with devices like radio receivers. I notice this with some radios, mostly inside the RV. The aluminum shell of the RV blocks or weakens the signal from the transmission tower to the point where the buzz from the ballast is the stronger signal. Inside the cabin the problem is virtually non existent on most our our radios. It has never bothered the TV.

We use the 115 type above the RV sofa bed and one there is great. We also use them over the kitchen counter and the dinette. They are perfect there too. I'm using a couple in the cabin, also over the kitchen counter (under the upper cabinets). I'm not certain if one of those would be good for reading if used on the 8 ft cabin ceiling.  ???  If used up there one would also have to come up with an accessible DC rated switch as my arms won't quite reach the ceiling.  ::)

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

MountainDon

Just a note on FL lights. The FL tubes are the same for 12 VDC, 24 VDC 120 VAC, etc. The difference is in the ballast. You can convert a 120 VAC FL fixture to operate on 12 VDC by buying the appropriate DC ballast. Sometimes this might be cost effective, frequently it is not.


A switch designed/rated for AC is not usually usable on DC circuits.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


tesa

alright, we're gonna go with the thinlite 115's for the kitchen, and over the couch, and we're gonna try 111's for the bathroom
as we have a huge skylight in there, and rarley use a light except after dark

we decided not to go with that radio frequency ballast thingy, as we don't have a radio in the RV proper, we have a wee
boom box we keep outside, so it shouldn't be a problem, except for daniels alarm clock radio, but we'll cross that
bridge when we come to it, as i don't forsee the lights being on at 4am when his alarm clock will turn on, so there
shouldn't be any interference, i think

and speaking of that, i'm having the darndest time finding an battery operated alarm clock! local box stores don't have
them, even my local radio shack didn't have any, at 6 watts for 24 hours a day, i'd like to get rid of that

anyway, i'm placing my order for the thinlites tomorrow, and shipping for ups ground was only 13 bucks, not too bad

still waiting on parts on sale to get with me on the temp. monitor for the charge controller, i think my
sales person was off yesterday

also, we've decided to go (well i think we've decided to go with) with the trojan L-16 we found a dealer here
in houston that has them for $237 each 415 amp hours 6v

and, they are willing to take those MK batteries we have in exchange for the core charge we would have to pay

thats great, as i haven't even started to find a place to take them, and i know we'd have to pay to have
them taken, so thats nice to know

i'll be offline for the remainder of the weekend, as we begin construction on the shed tomorrow 7am!
so i'm spending today cleaning, and doing laundry, and pre cooking some food to feed the work-crew

culvert is being delivered later today

pray for no rain, we're still under a burn ban, and i know we need the rain, but not tomorrow!

have a good one!
tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing

tesa

man, those parts on sale people rock!

she just got back with me, and was infact off yesterday

she said the mppt500 charger does in fact have a temp. controll thingy in it, and they
carry the cables for our choosen batteries, so i guess now all i have to do is call with my
credit card number, and away we go!

daniel's in a meeting 'till two this afternoon, and i'm gonna get the final "ok" from him,
as i just write the checks, ya know

but it looks like its a done deal!

wow, what a wild ride, i think i know all i want to know about amp hours, and watts, and volts,
the rest is up to the engineer

tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing

tesa

well, thats what i get for thinkin' we had made a decission. 

daniel says he found a deal too good to pass up on two US L-16's 420 amp hour 5 year warranty, no shipping
for $218, so US battery it is

i told him "were done here, right?"

and he said "yes dear"

tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing

Pritch

Quote from: tesa on February 13, 2009, 01:40:05 PM

and speaking of that, i'm having the darndest time finding an battery operated alarm clock! local box stores don't have
them, even my local radio shack didn't have any, at 6 watts for 24 hours a day, i'd like to get rid of that

Tesa, what your looking for is commonly called a travel alarm.  It is more likely to be with the luggage than the electronics section of most department stores.  You can also find them at places like Cabela's or Sportsmens Warehouse. 

-- Pritch
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that they're not always accurate." -- Abraham Lincoln

tesa

oh, we went down that road, the noise was awful, woke up the whole house, and maby a neighbor
or two, i'm not a morning person, so needless to say, it wasn't a happy morning with the 6 year old
up at 4:30 am

i'd like to find an actual battery operated radio/alarm clock

ours has one, but it would seem it only works just to keep the time when the power goes off, as
it wont run unless its plugged into the ac outlet

gotta be somethin' somewhere for off grid wackos like us

tesa
"building a house requires thousands of decisions based on a million bits of information"-charlie wing