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General => General Forum => Topic started by: Adam Roby on August 06, 2016, 11:32:12 PM

Title: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on August 06, 2016, 11:32:12 PM
The wife and I have been actively looking for the "perfect" cottage in the Laurentian Mountains (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurentian_Mountains") of Quebec Canada that we can both afford to purchase and that meets our specific criteria/needs.

Rather than simply saving money in the bank, we've decided to put a hold on that and channel our monies to a cottage purchase. The main goal is to have it paid off in 15 years, so by the time I am 60 yrs old we'll have both our home in the city and home in the country completely paid off.
We figure an investment in real-estate will probably yield a higher return on investment than a savings account can.

That being said, we are also planning on renting it out for single week or weekend renters, depending on the season. Generally in this area, everything is rented solid in June, July and August (12 weeks or so).  Then all the holidays and sporadic weekends throughout the rest of the year.

Last Sunday my wife caught a new posting and was the very first person to call the agent.  By Tuesday we were up there having a look.  Every single time I have seen a place I come back with a list of reasons why I don't want it. Cracks in the foundation, sitting on tree stumps, lake water with no well, illegal septic ... this place I couldn't find a single thing wrong with it on my first pass. We were heading on a road trip for a long weekend (Fri-Mon) and put in an offer on Friday morning 7:00 AM using e-Z Sign (electronic signature makes it all legal like).  They countered on Sunday, and we accepted their counter on the following Tuesday.  I never thought we'd go through that whole process so quickly...  the house was priced to sell, we got a deal, and we got a lot of inclusions.  We just got the water analysis back yesterday with the thumbs up, so the offer was only pending that it passed the house inspection, and we found a reputable place with knowledge and experience in the area.  Just did the inspection today.  There were a few things pointed out, one floor I need to replace because of ground moisture issues in the utility room where they cut the slab to lay plumbing and left the dirt exposed.  It is only a 2'x4' section, but enough to have cause the floor to rot.  Positive side of opening that floor is that I can make sure to add proper drains to empty the system when not there for longer periods of time, and perhaps add some heat tape where I want things to stay thawed.  Needs more soffits, add some insulation in the attic, and we probably need to up the electrical because its only 125A and we'd like to add a spa. 

Sounds like we have just bought it.  It should rent fairly well in the winter time since its very close to a few nice ski hills.
It is not on the lake but a short walk to the lake.  Small no motorboat lake but good for families with small children.
We are also sitting on 3.8 acres of land, so I have all kinds of crazy ideas to entice potential renters to choose us over others...
(swing sets, playground, tree house, zip line maybe, bench and sitting areas...)

Also planning on doing some deck work and adding an outdoor spa...  money is the only limit with that much land and privacy, and of course ROI comes into play. Then, when its not making money, we can enjoy it ourselves. We're taking ownership in September, but the current residents will rent it from us for 1 month while they pack and move to their new home.  It was an elderly couple, they had it built back in 1977 and have been living there full time ever since.  I got a really good feel from them, and even during our visit they had someone working on the flower beds (they seem to take pride in the place).

We'll start looking it over in October to see what needs to be done, probably only really start renting it out next summer although we already have 2 couples we know who are interested in renting this fall and winter.

Not the cabin build I wanted to do, but its finally a country place and I tend to take full advantage of it whenever I can.

Here are a few pics:

(http://i.imgur.com/ngVRJAt.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/GYwSSu7.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/eVWObSV.jpg)
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 07, 2016, 06:08:11 PM
Congrats on the purchase!  I'm sure you'll find even more ways to keep yourself busy updating and maintaining the place.  Looking forward to a virtual walk-through in October.   ;)
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on August 07, 2016, 06:36:02 PM
Many thanks... I will post a floor plan (as best as I can guess) tomorrow.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: NathanS on August 08, 2016, 08:49:39 AM
Looks like a really nice place Adam, congrats. Being in the great outdoors is what it's all about. Love that big overhang protecting all the windows and doors. I'll bet the winter is spectacular.

Is it a 3-4 hour drive for you guys to get up there?
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on August 08, 2016, 05:54:34 PM
Actually the nice thing about living in Montreal is that "up north" is really not that far away.
This is only about 1h15 drive door to door which makes it very manageable.

Based on pictures and measurements taken from the listing, I managed to put this together.  I am sure things are off a little, but it gives a pretty accurate feel to how the place is laid out.

(http://i.imgur.com/tWqWk3z.png) (http://imgur.com/tWqWk3z)
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on September 03, 2016, 07:19:22 AM
One of the additions we'd like to add is a spa (outdoor hot tub).  I was reading a few how to's and they recommend a concrete pad underneath of about 4".  I just did a quick calculation, a 10'x10'x4" pad would require some 74 60lb bags!!  Is that right?  Can I use anything else, like a wood deck with joists every 6" instead?  There is no way my back could handle that many bags for such a "small" area.  I really doubt a cement truck could climb that steep of a driveway (few hundred feet in and pretty steep up), especially with nowhere to turn around you need to back in or back out.

What would others suggest?
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: NathanS on September 03, 2016, 08:42:36 AM
Well it looks like you've got some Canadian shield poking out right by the house, you have a good starting point.

Sometimes those decks even have an area that has extra reinforcement for a hot tub.. did you inspect it yet?

I think the easiest cheapest thing would be to reinforce the deck to hold the tub.

Even if you had to temporarily pull the deck floor up to reinforce, I'd much rather do that then deal with all the concrete.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on September 03, 2016, 11:39:55 AM
Your math on the number of bags is probably spot on.  Just looking at volume of the pad you've got 33.3 cubic feet.  My bagged gravel I've been using runs about 60 lbs for 0.5 c.f., so a comparable amount of gravel would be about 67 bags.  So yeah, that looks right.

One option if you want to consider concrete is to have a truck bring the wet concrete as close as it can and finish with wheelbarrows.  It's been done before.  If I went that route I would hire some day labor for the grunt work.

Depending on the model of spa and the number of people you would design for, you're looking at an additional live load of at least 100 pounds per square foot.  There are plenty of wood decks that have been built to accommodate hot tubs so it's just a matter of ensuring you have enough joists and girders where needed.  If beefing up a deck, I think I would pull up the decking just to make it easier to put in additional joists.

Edit: re-reading NathanS's post I see he made that point already.  Doh!  Reading comprehension is apparently a two-step process for me....
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on September 17, 2016, 02:43:40 PM
I just came back from the cottage, had a final meeting with the old owners (current tenants) until the end of this month.  We wanted to go over everything and make sure I understood how the how works and what maintenance and schedules must be kept.  Very nice elderly couple.  They are moving into a rental unit, they needed money and were getting pretty old to take care of the place.  They really took a lot of pride in the place and it shows.  The man took me to his (my) shed and showed me all the tools and equipment I inherited.  He said he has no use for any of it so might as well leave it for me.  I was quite humbled.  Too many items to list them all, but I will mention a few. 
- 10,000 watt Subaru generator with electric start (already wired to the house and essential appliances).
- Husqvarna 45 chainsaw (maintenance just done including tune up and chain sharpened).
- Big Craftsman snowblower
- Lawnmower
- Weed wacker
- ladders, table saw, jigs, gas canisters, ...  list goes on, not even sure what else.

I can't wait to get in there and spend a night.  They told us a family of wild turkeys had visited them that morning, and most mornings around 5:00 AM they have deer eating their plants out the living room, sometimes even moose.  Seems like the forest goes on and on, its only around 4 acres but feels so massive and very private. 
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on September 22, 2016, 04:38:48 PM
I've been mulling over a security system for a while now, trying to determine my best possible option and least expensive solution.

A standard alarm system requires a landline telephone hook up.
I do not like the idea of having to pay $35 for a basic phone line that only has local calling for free.  Anyone using long distance will be hard for me to track and charge them for.
I want to use the Fido home phone, which is only $15 per month for unlimited calling Canada wide.  This uses cell technology, and you need a one time $40 purchase for a box.
Problem with this solution is that the alarm companies are not compatible with it.

If I use a PC to take care of security, then I need an internet connection.  The cheapest rates I can find are also around $35 per month for very limited bandwidth.  Problem with this is that I can not tell renters they have internet because someone can blow the limit the first week of rent and the next 3 renters for the month will exceed the bandwidth, costing me a lot.  Unlimited even with the lowest speed will cost in the neighborhood of $50 per month.

Since we still don't know when it will rent, how much it will rent, adding $85 of extras, plus the alarm company rates just sounds like an expense I want to avoid.

[INSERT HAIR-BRAIN IDEA HERE]   :)

Here's my idea.  I start off by purchasing the $40 Fido box and have a home phone installed. This will give renters a way to call home providing they live in Canada, or call for pizza or whatever else they might need a phone for.

I want to hack an old touch tone telephone, open it up to get access to the electronics.

Using an old PC, and some of my own electronics (PICs and such), monitor the house using the PC and actually telephone myself when a problem is detected.

* This PC and Fido box will need to be on a UPS battery backup, hidden somewhere in the attic that is not easily reachable.

1)  AC Power monitoring

I can use a simple 5 VDC transformer plugged into a standard wall plug.  That will go to the PC which my application will then keep an eye on.  If that power goes out, then I know the AC power has been lost.  I can use either an I/O board or perhaps the parallel port for this, to be determined.  Once I detect the power is out, I may give it a 5 minute or so window to make sure it is not just a glitch.  Once I decide I need to be notified, my hacked telephone will be used.  I want to release the "hang up button", then use a DTFM modulator to synthesize dialing my cell phone.  After a certain delay, start a "text to speech" script, using a speaker from the PC to the handset of the phone, and in a loop (maybe 3 times" repeat the relevant information.  "Security update, AC power has been lost as of x:00 PM, Saturday October 1st 2016".  I would have to unplug the PC and see how long it could last on the UPS, then once I have an idea do a fail-safe power-off through the application at perhaps the 75% drained period.  I could have my application autostart, and keep a flag set to know the status so when the PC comes back on it knows to call me to let me know the power has been restored.  Logistic to be figured out... how to trigger the PC to turn back on and such... that's where my PICs come in probably.  For now, its just an idea I want to work on.

2) Security Alarm

There is already an alarm connected in the house.  It has sensors on the windows and doors, and it has 2 loud horns, one inside and one out.

Since it will not be connected to a central anymore, I could always tap into it to determine the current status of the alarm.  If it sounds for whatever reason, again I could send myself a phone call to let me know "Security breach, window in living room has been triggered".

3) Cameras

I could install a capture card and cameras, but I can't send images over a phone line unless I setup some kind of BBS system with a dialup modem, but that is getting a bit complex.  Once thing I can possibly do is to buy a PVR system with cameras (China has them for $80) and they have built into them a motion detection system.  I could potentially tap into this "alarm" state as well and send myself a message that a camera detected movement.  I wouldn't mean much because there is so much wild life, but I could note the time so when I go back up I know what time slot to look at.  If however I get a notification that there was motion on the driveway, then 5 minutes later get a notification that the alarm is active, that is a double confirmation that a potential robbery in progress.  I would like to speak with the neighbors, ask them if I can call them in that case to go have a quick look, not sure if calling the police at that point is reason enough for them to go, and/or if they would be able to get there in time anyway.  Having the recorded images would at least give me perhaps license plate numbers and such to give to the police when making the report.  Maybe sending a neighbor could be dangerous for them, perhaps more looking out the window to see if they see some punk with a TV in his hands to call the police.

4)  Temperature Sensors

This is still something I am looking for, but I want to maybe use a USB thermometer that I can inquire the current temperature using software.

When I would report that the power is out, and possibly subsequent messages when I detect the temperature has dropped below a certain threshold then I could report that back to myself using the text to speech.

[/INSERT HAIR-BRAIN IDEA HERE]


So this is just some of the brainstorming I have been doing.  I can find old PCs from local shops for pretty cheap, I want to find one that uses the least amount of power as possible so I will probably look for a compact PC and then find a suitable UPS battery pack.  From there I need to work on the I/O, how I will monitor the outside world, and how I will control the outside world.  I am sure I could design something using USB or serial, but again it gets a bit convoluted.  Using the parallel port gives me some options that are easier to implement.  Then each of the above needs to be focused on, starting sequentially from #1 since that is my biggest fear... losing power and having the pipes freeze.  If I get a call that the power went out and do not get another call after 4 hours... then I head up and start a fire to warm things up.    Also knowing a break-in occurred is important so that would be step 2.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: MountainDon on September 22, 2016, 05:22:12 PM
Interesting. There is something of a dilemma when one is off grid; no landline phones or land line internet either. Cell phone coverage available at about $48/month. And even more of a dilemma when travel time between home and cabin is 90 minutes at best and the sheriff response time may be better measured in hours than minutes, especially if it is just an alarm going off with no other proof of entry.  It seems that the bad guys get to dictate how we use our property.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on October 07, 2016, 07:36:07 AM
Question about firewood...

We took a walk through our forest last week and there are several fallen trees scattered about.  Some maple, some pine, birch... the first question is, can I cut up already fallen trees to be used as firewood providing they have not already rotted?  As I understand it, normally you cut into logs and then let dry naturally for 1 year before burning.  We have a pile now, left overs from last winter that have not yet been burned which we think will last us this winter since it will take some time before rentals become more active, but since I want to clear the woods for trails now anyways I thought it would make good use of the fallen trees if I could cut and stack them for next year. 

Part two of this, the old man that sold me the house has the wood stacked against the house.  The main level is blocks which have been parged with some design in it.  He said it helps with insulation, the inspector said its a source of moisture... I am not sure.  I was thinking maybe putting a 1" foam board against the house then stacking the wood there, would that be advised? 
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: NathanS on October 07, 2016, 07:50:43 AM
Carpenter ants could tunnel through the foam and up to the wood framing of the house. I don't like exterior foam in contact with the ground. Some say you can use metal flashing to keep them from getting into the framing, I don't like 'barrier' approach though. The other problem is that with foam, you could have a problem and never see it.

Nothing wrong with taking already downed wood. Less work and safer. If branches held the trunk off the ground it could already be partially seasoned too. Lots of people stack wood next to their houses. IMO I would never do it in the warm months. Once it is cold out and bug activity stops I don't think there's much risk in stacking wood by the house.

I don't think it will have any insulating effect.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Don_P on October 07, 2016, 09:15:51 AM
Ditto, do not stack wood against or in the house. The main pile should be some distance away, it is full of wood eating bugs, more if you are using downed wood (which I do all the time). Bring up a small amount of wood at a time in the winter. Any insects should wake up from the cold inside the woodstove. I've been in several basements where the insect damage didn't come from outside, it came from a pile of firewood inside the basement. It clearly showed me those piles are full of bad potential.

I took the foam off the outside of our foundation when it started being tunneled.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on October 07, 2016, 10:41:59 AM
OK - thanks for the feedback.  I think I will setup an area away from the house using the cement blocks with 4x4's that I think I saw Gary do. 
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on November 13, 2016, 05:59:24 PM
I discovered something annoying/problematic at the cottage this weekend.
We are still not really "using" it as I am doing a ton of work every weekend, from plastering and painting, to installing security cameras (yesterday actually).

In the master bathroom, there is a humongous Jacuzzi bathtub.  I have yet to test the pump because I need to fill it with water past the jets before turning on the pump as to not damage the pump (or so I am told).  The tub has got to be 6' radius, with 3' tall sides... I have never seen something this big, and it is surrounded by tile steps so it completely fills a 10'x10' area... massive and from the 80's.  I decided I worked hard all day, I will try out the tub and soak a bit.  I start to fill it and get about 6" deep when I run out of hot water.  There's another 6" to go before even reaching the jets...   how the hell can anyone actually use this tub?

The hot water tank is only a 40 gallon, and was installed in April of this year.  The PO obviously did not account for filling this massive tub when they replaced that tank a few months ago.  My options are pretty limited...  a larger tank might help if there is enough room, a bit of a shame considering the existing tank is only a few months old...  I am thinking maybe a "point of use" tankless hot water system, but my electric is only 125 and already maxed out, and these systems require 50-80 amps of dedicated power.  I can maybe go propane, but I would need all new everything... and in the end I hate this tub.  It sits in the center of this 10'x10' space.  My only option if I remove it is to go with a free standing tub (standard size) but my wife hates them and wants a wall tub with cripple wall on the opposite side.  Problem is, all the pumping can't be moved as it is all exposed downstairs as part of the kitchen ceiling. 

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.
How safe is it to turn up the hot water temperature to hopefully require less volume to help fill the tub?
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Don_P on November 14, 2016, 07:23:37 AM
Not particularly dangerous, you have a temp/ pressure safety valve. Where does it discharge? Or, make sure if it discharges it won't ruin anything. You will pay all day every day for turning it up though. Don't let those pumps and plumbing freeze in the tub or it'll be an easy decision.

Farm raised catfish?
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on November 14, 2016, 06:32:40 PM
LOL... I could put it in the yard and fill it with gold fish...  would be more useful anyways.

The discharge is right over a drain, so should be OK.  I shut off the water when I leave Sunday nights, but that's still potentially 40 gallons to deal with should something give...

I think there is only really one decision.  I wonder how much it would be to replace just the tub with something smaller, 10'x16' maybe of floor tile...   Gonna run the numbers and make some 3d drawings for the wife.  That should sell her on it...
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on November 27, 2016, 09:53:22 PM
Was looking through my recordings for last week and saw a nice family of wild turkeys.  They seem to frequent the property and act like they own the place.  I saw plenty of deer tracks in the forest surrounding the cabin but have not caught any on camera yet that I know of.  I might install a salt-lick on the shed to attract more wild life.

(http://i.imgur.com/6EGMIoS.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/VDHcYTk.jpg)
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: MountainDon on November 28, 2016, 09:41:12 AM
 [cool]
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on March 11, 2017, 05:04:47 PM
In order to offset some of the financial burden of owning two homes, we are renting the cottage and just left the very first weekend renter alone in our house.  I have to admit, I am bit nervous about this endeavor.  It was a middle aged woman, and her sister and two kids (7 and 11) were going to join her later on this afternoon.  It will be a 4 day stay.  We figured this will get our feet wet, and we should get some feedback as to what's good and what's bad with our rental. 

We wanted to wait for nicer weather, and it has been beautiful for a couple of weeks but as Murphy would it we had freezing rain and now the temperature has plummeted to -33 C.  It is damn cold, and our heaters are having trouble keeping up.  We had to turn on the clothes dryer, and turn on the stove with the door open for 45-60 minutes just so the temperature would get over 18 degrees C (64 F approx).  It got to 21 (almost 70 F) before we left but temps are supposed to drop even more tonight.  I really hope I don't get a call that they are freezing to death.  We have a wood burning fireplace there, but it was never cleaned from the previous owners and I am afraid to make a fire before having it inspected and cleaned thoroughly, but because of the heavy snow and cold temps nobody want to clean it until the summer.  We had to call someone in to scrape the driveway and lay down some sand, it was a skating rink.  It is already a very steeply sloped driveway and about 120' long, there was no way of getting up.  Even with the sand, and 2 bags of gravel I laid down, I had to park the lady's car for her because she was too scared to do it and I got up maybe 20 feet before spinning to a stop.  It was a bit scary, even in park with the handbrake on the car was still sliding down the hill a bit.  I turned the wheel towards the mountain, hopefully it it moves it will be stopped by the hill and not slide into the street. 

I'll let you know next weekend how everything turned out.  We can't take time off work to go up on Tuesday to inspect.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on March 12, 2017, 11:22:36 AM
Question about flooring...

The cottage is built on a slab.  There is some kind of subfloor under the hardwood flooring, not sure how thick but the floor does spring a bit so I know there is something there.  The floor is always very cold, I fear it is not insulated at all.  The hardwood needs to be redone, sanded and re-varnished or replaced. 

To save money, sanding and varnishing sounds like the best option, but it does not address the apparent lack of insulation.
Would it be possible to drill holes along the cavities, fill with some kind of spray foam, then plug those holes and sand / varnish?

Ideally I would need to pull the entire floor, check if there is any insulation, add some, make it better, and install new flooring. 
That sounds pretty expensive and time consuming... but in the end might give a much better overall look and better results.

Any advice on this subject?  I do plan on doing some investigative surgery this spring in the bathroom of that floor since its linoleum and I can just remove the washer/dryer and pull back the sheet, inspect, reinstall worse case. 

*Small note:  The heaters don't seem to be able to keep up with the cold temperatures.  If I do pull the floor, would radiant in-floor heating work with a wood floor overtop of it?  I think that could potentially resolve the heating problem by both adding heat and keeping heat in, just not sure if that works with wood floors or just ceramic/concrete flooring.  It is a cottage in the mountains so I think a wood floor is a must for comfort and look.

Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: GaryT on March 12, 2017, 12:01:03 PM
I recently moved an exterior door for a friend up in New Brunswick, Canada.  The door was under the eves, not on a gable end.  They get a lot of snow, and wanted to move the door around a corner to the gable end.  While I was sizing up the situation, I noticed the floor had a LOT of spring to it.  It is built on a slab.  Long story short, I pulled up some flooring and found that the builder had put non pressure treated sleepers between the concrete slab and the sub floor.  They had also done a ridiculously bad job of installing the door; virtually NO caulk/whatever under the threshold.  Melting snow ran under the door and rotted the sleepers.  So I got to re-do about 50 square feet of sleepers, subfloor and flooring (why do projects done as a favor always get so big?).   So if you have a springy floor on a slab, you might have a similar problem.

There are radiant heat systems that can be put down over a slab, and there are wood flooring systems that can be put down over radiant heat.  Neither are a cheap date, and you'd have to have a boiler that can handle the new situation.

Just a couple thoughts,
Gary
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on March 12, 2017, 12:46:04 PM
Thanks for the feedback Gary.  That would make a bad situation even worse, and it can very well be what's happening on mine.  Is pressure treated wood on the inside of a house not dangerous for off-gassing?  I guess it would be under the floor so probably less likely to cause any health issues. 

For radiant heat, I was leaning towards an electric version, heated wires inside a pad kind of thing.  No room for a boiler...
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: NathanS on March 12, 2017, 08:03:56 PM
If there's no insulation under the slab you will lose a whole lot of heat into the ground with heated wire or water on top of it.

Might not be a bad idea to pull up part of the flooring to see what's underneath. You could even poke a hole through the concrete to see if you have an insulation or at least a vapor barrier under the slab.

If you don't have any insulation under the slab, I think you would be better off laying down 2" of foam on top the slab then putting the furring strips and floor back on. Concrete basically has an R value of 0. Adding the insulation could likely also solve the heating problems and would also act as a vapor retarder. Winter sure is coming back with a vengeance this week.

I think the main thing with pressure treated is to not breathe the sawdust in when you're cutting it. I have also noticed that the new stuff is wet and gloves are a good idea too.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Don_P on March 12, 2017, 08:14:55 PM
The first place to look for slab insulation is around the perimeter. The ground under you is much warmer than the exposed and frozen perimeter.

Treated lumber doesn't outgas. It is appropriate to use it for sleepers on concrete. ACQ and its cousins are Alkaline (ammonia or one of several proprietary alkaline compounds), Copper and quat, (used in restaurant and food handling cleaning compounds).  The drier the wood is the better to help avoid shrinkage related squeaking problems. I've put 1-1/2" thick foam between sleepers when doing that. Personally I wouldn't want to be supplying home heat with that minimal insulation to my back and wood insulating me from where I want to get the heat to. I suspect you would spend a fair amount warming the core of the planet. I'd gain the extra R point from the wood floor and heat from above the floor. Radiant feels good and allows lower indoor temps and could be worth it for that but I don't think it would be efficient enough for primary heat.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on March 14, 2017, 08:02:05 PM
Thanks for the tips, I will have a look at the corners to see what I can find insulation wise.

I have another question regarding ice damming.  I noticed some bubbles in the ceiling just before handing the keys to the renters.  Didn't have time to look at it, and was afraid to put my finger through the gyprock.  The roof was redone recently, maybe 4 years ago.  We had a lot of snow, rain, freeze cycles this winter and I saw ice buildup probably 4-6 inches thick on the shingles, with layers of snow and more ice on top of that.

My best guess is that as things started to melt, a puddle formed and worked its way back into the attic.
Not sure if I can get up there now with this crazy blizzard happening, but as soon as I can I plan to get into the attic and at least try to divert any water to the soffits, and remove any wet insulation to try to prevent more damage inside until all the snow is gone and I can properly inspect for damage.

Question:  If this was due to ice damming, does it generally cause permanent damage or can it be something that is no longer a problem once the ice is gone?  I guess I am asking if there is any possibility I won't need an expensive repair or is it pretty much a guarantee that the roof is damaged?
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: NathanS on March 15, 2017, 07:58:48 AM
Sounds like ice damming to me. buildingscience.com and Joe Lstiburek are the best resource on how all that stuff works.

https://buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-135-ice-dams

Mainly 3 things: lack of insulation at top plate, warm air leaking through drywall, insufficient ventilation between insulation and roof plane.

With some combination of those three things, the snow will act as insulation, and above your top plate at the eave, the snow right on the roof plane will get above freezing and drip down to the overhang where it is below freezing and freeze up. This will keep happening until you have several inches of ice, and it will push its way back up the roof and under the shingles, melting into the sheathing, attic, and drywall.

It looks like you have a flat upstairs ceiling, so you could take a look from in that attic? My first guess would be lack of ventilation space.

Some roofers will say that they can 'fix' the problem with ice and water shield all the way up the roof. That may end up keeping the water out, but will not stop ice damming.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on March 15, 2017, 08:43:44 PM
Thanks for the link, it makes sense to me now. 
Definitely sounds like ice damning.
I know there are only 2 or 3 small soffits along the entire length of each side.  I need to open up each cavity between the rafters to allow air flow. 
I can also add some insulation, and make sure it reaches the outer edge of the exterior walls.

How much air flow is required in the soffits?  It is just plywood... I was wondering if drilling a series of holes from the outside, then screening from the inside would provide enough air flow.  I'll probably just call in a roofer and see what they recommend.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: NathanS on March 15, 2017, 09:04:52 PM
The soffit vent should run the entire length of the eave and be continuous. That alone could be causing the problem.

Code calls for roughly even venting at soffit and gable (calculating square inches of vent sizing), but it is actually better to have more down low than up high. The idea being that you want positive pressure in the attic. Attic venting works by stack effect, cold air comes in the eaves and hot air leaves through the gables. If you have negative pressure it would encourage warm air being sucked out of the house through the ceiling.

You have gable vents which is good - probably better than a ridge vent in this climate.

Be careful with calling roofers. They are not 'building science' people, and their solution might be new plywood, ice and water shield, and shingles, and same old problem. I am not really sure how trades are supposed to intermingle and who is the attic ventilation tzar.

If you cut open the plywood soffit and put a screen mesh in there, that could really help things. If you cut that open this summer you might be able to see if rafter vents were installed underneath the roof deck.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on March 19, 2017, 11:56:52 AM
I spent some "quality" time in the attic yesterday.  Got a lung full of dust and coughed and choked for hours afterwards.
Nothing is wet, I was fully expecting some of the insulation to be drippy wet with how the ceilings looks... maybe it dried since the damage happened.  I wish the pictures came out, hard to take a picture of a white ceiling, the defects don't show.

Even harder is taking pictures in the attic, in such a confined space and trying to hold a flashlight at the same time.  I can see in many areas there is a large area of ceiling that is not insulated.  In that specific spot, at least 16" of exposed ceiling.  There are only a couple of small vents in the soffits, needs to be opened up when the weather gets nicer, and then add insulation to the missing spots.

I just hope the blocking is letting enough air in, I would estimate 1/2 inch or so gap.

(http://i.imgur.com/AoDdePZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Don_P on March 20, 2017, 05:42:33 PM
What are the white "blooms" I'm seeing on the roof sheathing? It looks like the ceiling has seen water and I'm suspecting the sheathing is in trouble. I would run a row of insulation chutes from that gap up and then do a good job insulating out to that blocking. It wouldn't hurt to open it up with a sawzall... that would be less than fun.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: NathanS on March 20, 2017, 06:39:19 PM
I didn't notice that white foamy looking stuff until Don mentioned it. At the top edge of where the camera flash is.

I think as long as you are careful with the rafter vents and putting the insulation in there that gap will be big enough. A basic rule for insulation on the top plate is greater than or equal to whatever is in the walls. 2x6 wall you'd want at least R-20 on top of the plate.

Another thing you could do is caulk the drywall to the top plate to try to stop any warm air from leaking through at the eaves.

Honestly with no insulation up there it is no wonder you were getting ice damming. That's not helping the energy bills either.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on March 20, 2017, 07:55:47 PM
Yeah the electrical bills are killing us.  We stayed there for 4 days during the Christmas break, shut off the water tank and lowered the temperature for the remainder of the big winter months and our bill was still around $500 for that 2 month period.  Craziness...

I didn't notice any foam, will have to have a better look, might just be a camera effect.  The roof is not plywood, rather planks of wood.  There are small gaps here and there, either a space or where a knot fell out.  I can see a white sheet as the first layer.  The roof shingles were replaced in 2014 or 2015... its in the paperwork somewhere. 

Is there such thing as "too much" insulation?  I was thinking to put the Polystyrene rafter vents in, and then either lay a layer of R40 pink stuff over top of the existing, or see how much it would be to blow in insulation over top of whats there. 

For the venting at the soffits, I was thinking to put these in...
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.8-ft-white-under-eave-aluminum-soffit-vent.1000169065.html

And between each rafter, drill 4 or 5 2" holes with my hole bit, maybe an inch between, and put that metal plate on top to keep out critters.  If I can see enough light coming in after drilling the holes, then I know I'll be OK on the inside and add the insulation.

Another potential problem is the previous owner laid down plywood everywhere.  The damaged area was completely covered by the plywood...  maybe 1/4 of the floor is covered, not fastened down, he was obviously moving them around to gain access to different parts of the attic.  Doesn't that also interfere with air flow and such? 

The sawzall idea would be good, but I really doubt I can reach in there.  I'll probably have to buy a suit and breather mask the next time I go in.

I'll be sure to bring up a better camera next weekend, and take some pictures of the white stuff, thanks for pointing that out. 
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Don_P on March 20, 2017, 08:23:44 PM
I'm not seeing the top plate, just sheetrock going under the block, hmm what is going on there, it might be just the pic. If you can't see the top plate drill a piece of stiff wire down right on the edge of one of those blocks, go down and see where that block is located in relation to the wall. I'm glad it is board sheathing, I was thinking I was seeing rows of something growing. Do look for water damage and rot in the lower, ice dam, region of the sheathing. You cannot overinsulate, at a certain point the return on investment isn't there. It sounds like you are not in that neighborhood yet.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on May 21, 2017, 09:31:19 PM
Got up to the cottage on Friday night and noticed my water pressure was at 0.
I normally shut off the water to the place in case of leaks but I leave the pump and pressure tank on.
The lever to the solenoid was still in the "automatic" mode (I actually never even noticed there was a bar there to select).  I tried shutting off the breaker and back on... no effect, tried tapping the solenoid... no effect.  The pump is 185' underground so I can't smack it with a hammer... options were limited.  I looked at that little bar/lever and it showed "automatic" to the left, 45 degrees was "reset or start", and pointing up was "off".  I cycled through the different options but did not notice anything.  Left the PO an email and started planning for the worse, looking up local plumbers, trying to estimate the costs of a new pump, etc.

The PO called the next morning.  Offered to swing by, its the first chance he's had since selling us the place back in October so he wanted to show me a few things that he missed when we exchanged ownership.  It turns out the pump is around 16 years old.  There is a back pressure valve (not sure the terminology) to keep the water from going back down to the well (keep the pipe primed).  It has been slowly letting water back down so the pump goes off every little while to re-pressurize the tank.  I thought it strange for the pump to be going off all night long when no water was being used but... what do I know.  He explained that you have to hold the lever at the 45 degree mark (if you let go it jumps to either option but wound't stay at 45 by itself.  After a few minutes you start to see the pressure go up.  Once it hits a certain point, it clicks and then you can let go, everything is back to normal.  Sometimes you have to actually remove the cover and hold the contacts manually, for some reason that has happened to him 2-3 times over the years.

When he swapped the pump the last time, they also replaced the pipe which was metal and is now plastic.  The guy doing the install was impressed that his pump has lasted 20 years.  The house was build in '74 so that's how he estimates it was back in 2001 when it was last replaced, 16 years ago... these dates are very vague and the PO is probably 85 years young - his stories change a bit each time they are told but he's a nice guy and always willing to help me out.

He mentioned that one plumber had suggested adding an anti-back valve doo-hickey next to the tank (on the top end) to help with that problem.  Does anyone think that would help?  Is this already one (the bigger picture)?

(http://i.imgur.com/IbpJkai.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/XDmjbCd.jpg)

Secondly, how long can one of these submersible pumps last - and if its almost due, how much am I looking at for someone to swap it out?  Are we looking at $2000 - $3000? 
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: GaryT on May 22, 2017, 09:18:06 AM
We've been lucky to get submersible pumps to last 10-12 years in our home.  Had to replace it last year again...1HP pump cost 1300 just for the pump here in southern VT.  Our well is about 450 feet deep.  We replaced all the tubing as well...total cost was about 5 grand.  Ouch.  In my younger days, I did this myself.  No more.
Gary
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: NathanS on May 22, 2017, 09:38:32 AM
Right before the well line connects to the tank T you should put check valve. Plumber is right. Well pumps come with a check valve, I have read they usually aren't that good so you put another one on the pump too.

Our pump was around 550 or 600... 3/4 hp. Be careful with the big box store pumps, cheaper for a reason. Ours is Franklin electric, which makes the motor for gould pumps, kind of industry standard I believe.

We installed the pump ourselves, using poly pipe, which I think is way easier to service than rigid pvc.

Sounds to me like your problem is at the pressure tank though.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on May 23, 2017, 08:35:47 PM
Ouch... I think we will start saving now for the worse case scenario then.  Daing... can't catch a break.

So what is this part then if not a check valve?

(http://i.imgur.com/XDmjbCd.jpg)
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: MountainDon on May 23, 2017, 08:41:19 PM
It certainly looks like a back flow preventer. (https://www.lowes.com/pd/AMERICAN-VALVE-1-1-4-in-Brass-Female-In-Line-Check-Valve/1000174871)..
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on August 29, 2017, 07:36:40 AM
Been doing a lot of work at the cottage lately.  Every time I drive up I pass a cabin that is precariously perched on some blocks, and I always want to take a picture but when moving and driving its not exactly an easy thing to do.  I just got a flash and looked on Google maps and sure enough it is there (https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.9099386,-74.3428437,3a,15y,330.01h,89.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1uIE41ONxnyjvUn2cEnCsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en).  (map link embedded)

(http://i.imgur.com/jP1Zy43.jpg)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where to start...  we are helping finance this cottage by renting it a few times during the peek months.  Goal is to pay the mortgage ourselves for retirement (selling the main house for cash) and we want to rent to cover the extra expenses like the utilities, taxes, etc.  We did pretty well this summer with an equal amount of using it ourselves and making some money, but there was a 1 month blitz where it was renting back to back with no time for us.  Once we got in there after the blitz we realized a few problems.

The Jacuzzi was leaking.  I had to open the ceiling in the kitchen because of the water damage and then noticed that the Jacuzzi installer cut away at a joist leaving maybe 1" at the very bottom.  Not sure what I will or can do about that without making more of a mess.  There was no access to the pipes, so I had to break away some tile and make a trap door to gain access.  Found out one of the previous renters had pulled too hard on the shower head and kinked the hose.  That in itself was an ordeal because none of the replacement pipes I could find would fit through the chrome hole cover... would up having to dismantle the hose and replace just the inner tube, and de-kinked the hose as best I could.  The bigger problem is I think they ran the motor without water because first it smelled like rubber, then would turn but very slowly, then it seemed to run fine for a minute or two, stopped it and wouldn't turn back on.  It was installed in the early 80's... that will be fun to find a replacement.  Does anyone actually repair these things anymore, like a starter could be rebuilt, is it not the same with a water pump (essentially)?

All of that happened on top of some other very expensive problems.  We kept having electrical issues, finally brought in an electrician to replace the panel from a 125A service to a 200A service.  It was more to make things safe because there were a lot of doubled up breakers and junctions inside the panel itself.  The estimate to replace was $1500 and when he left the bill was $2700.  Almost fainted.  Then we had the chimney guy come in to clean and he refused to, told us the chimney may have been fine for 1974 but for today's standard's he would not certify its safety.  Brought in an inspector and he confirmed, estimating at least $2000 in parts alone, plus labour I am guessing over $3000.  Since my wife hates the smell of a wood burning stove, and since we rent to complete morons, and since they burned up our reserve of wood for the winter on the outside fire pit... we decided to go electric.  I know... I know...  we'll keep the stove in the shed (oil it does so it doesn't rust) and go electric for now.  It also serves as an extra heating source, just need to wire it to 220V. 

So far the expenses have far surpassed any potential income.  But maybe things will smooth out in the next couple of years.


Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: JRR on August 30, 2017, 10:37:25 AM
The valve that you are asking about, is indeed, a brass swing check valve.  It has metal-to-metal internal sealing.  Google for more info.  It looks as though someone has already had a wrench on the top plug.  I would suggest you open it up for further inspection (with everything shut off for safety, of course) it could need a bit of internal repair.  I would have probably chosen, instead, a plastic ball check valve as they tend to seal more more positively than a metal swing type.  Some metal bodied ball check valves come with plastic/rubber seats for positive sealing.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on September 04, 2017, 01:02:56 PM
Thanks, I'll take a look inside.  It's only a $20-30 part so I may as well swap it out anyways.

Thought you would enjoy a snap of the joist that was hacked by the "professional Jacuzzi installer".  I had to open the hole a bit more to make a cleaner transition to new when closing it up and found even more of a mess...

(https://i.imgur.com/cGxrJ77.jpg)

Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on February 09, 2018, 08:13:10 AM
Back in the fall (October maybe) we had a plumber come out to the cottage to have a look at the setup for the well.  There was a pressure leak somewhere in the system, and the pressure would constantly drop and cause the pump to endlessly cycle.  The pump is 180' underground but the relay clicking all night was annoying.  He wound up changing the check valve and the pressure switch as it was showing signs of burnt contacts from all the abuse.  Now I can shut off the water, leave for a month, and when I return the pressure is exactly where it was when I left.

Fast forward a few months.  We've had three incidences where the water stops working.  When I check the pressure it has dropped and the switch is no longer activating.  I have to manually hold the lever to "start" and keep it there until the pressure builds and the relay clicks.  From there it will be fine until the next time.  I can't quite pinpoint when or why this is happening.  I suppose it could be a faulty switch, although it is new as of October.  The last time it happened we were there, and both my wife and I flushed two separate toilets at the same time.... doubt that is the cause though because we can run the shower and/or fill the tub without it happening.  The more troubling thing is when we have a renter there and it happens.  The last one was during the Christmas holiday and the women was mechanically inclined enough to follow my phone instructions, but not everyone is able to understand how things work.

Any ideas?  What other factors could cause the switch to not engage?  Its like the demand is there, the pressure drops, but the switch does not activate the well... or maybe the well pump does not engage?  The pump is old, going on 17 years if memory serves... but that will be quite the job to replace so we want to wait for it to really need done before starting that project. 
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: NathanS on February 10, 2018, 10:54:41 AM
It sounds like the new switch is having the same issues as the old one?

How old is that pressure tank? The bladder inside that tank can fail, maybe that could explain some of the issues.

I would itemize everything you know about the system from breaker to the pump, and compare that with a by the book 'correct' system.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on December 28, 2022, 09:47:00 AM
I hadn't been up to the cottage in about a month, and wound up spending about 4 hours shovelling.  While it is beautiful, I am getting too old for this, a fun day trip just means a week of recovery.  Back is wrecked, and I threw out my shoulder, could barely get my jacket on or off afterwards.  The pictures don't do it justice, but it was about 3' deep everywhere.

(https://i.imgur.com/ERAyZAy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/VbG37B9.jpg)

Don't mind the Canadian hat, eh.   :)
That deck is around 20' x 16', with 3' of snow on it.  Main reason to shovel it all was the weight, and not wanting it to crack the beams.  I have a snow blower, but even with the cutting bar it was too high, and it had 3 layers with ice between (you can kind of see the layers in the picture).  I had to cut it down, then run the snow blower, cut down some more, more blower.  I can't believe it took so long.
Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: jsahara24 on January 03, 2023, 09:46:27 AM
I feel your pain, too many years of arriving to camp and shoveling/snowblowing for hours just to get off the road....I hired a plow guy this year, when I showed up to camp after christmas I only had to shovel about 15' to the covered deck.....Was glorious!  I know you cant plow a deck but I understand your situation!  

Title: Re: Laurentian Mountain Cottage in Quebec Canada
Post by: Adam Roby on January 03, 2023, 11:01:15 AM
We can usually get into the driveway, at least off the road enough to not be in the way.  Our driveway is about 200' long and on a pretty steep slope upwards.  I most certainly never want to shovel that by hand.  We have a plow guy to do that, but we then have 20+ stairs to get up to the deck, and then the deck itself before getting to the front door.  That driveway gets rather hairy when it gets slippery, as it also curves and has a 20 foot drop off one side.  The plow takes a run for it up as high as he can get while spreading sand.  Then slides back down and does another run until he reaches the top.  Sometimes it is just impossible to get up, even when I had my Jeep with 4x4 low and pinned tires.  We always back up the driveway in case we have no traction going back down.  It is easier to control the decent facing forward that it is backwards, especially at night when you know you are sliding towards the ledge.   :o