CountryPlans Forum

 Good Little houses 960sq.ft.
Great prices the basic 16x30 1 1/2 story kit is only$27,700  :o
Robert  

http://www.firstdaycottage.com

Yes they are.  Someone here talked to them seriously.

Do you have any real experience with them?

Daddymem!

Hi...not totally off the burner yet  :P

FYI  Firstday is expanding to a headquarters in Biloxi.  There is supposedly a new model as well.  We also discovered one is going in in our Town, the first delivery is literally next week.  Mommymem can fill you in more if you ask.

Daddymem,

Has that Firstday near you, started going up yet??

Not yet.  We left our phone number with him, sounded like he may call for a hand.  We are visiting Firstday on the 15th.  There are supposedly a handful of them right around Walpole we can visit.  One of the employees has just about completed his.  I'll take pics and report back here.

Sounds great.  Can't wait to see more pics.

What do you think about the lack of roof overhang on the Firstdays?

They can be designed with overhangs if you want.  I'm going to look into that option.  If you don't have the overhangs, I think you must use gutters.  I guess I'll see how I feel when I see one up close.

Probably need gutters anyway, if you don't want a little rain ditch down below the eaves.

We'll be looking for your report.

Just about all the pictures show the use of gutters.  There is a picture somewhere on their site (details iirc) that shows one on Martha's Vineyard (again iirc) with built out overhangs.

http://www.firstdaycottage.com/pictures/completed/Completed07.jpg

This shows one with sm overhang & no gutter - not sure where it is located.

I too, would opt for the exteded roofing option - sounds like the way to go.

Here is the one I was thinking about:
http://www.firstdaycottage.com/pictures/detail/Detail15.jpg

Roof overhang and the detailing of gutters is a local climate determined option. You can use extended eaves and gutters on just about any design.

In heavy snow country gutters are often ripped off so people need to go to gravel trenches or other techniques at the splash line.

Shorter eaves cut down the ice damming problem in some climates but can cause other problems when gutters back up in wetter climates.

Ice dams are sooo frequent here, I'm kind of getting used to the idea of no overhang.  I was going to look at extra long overhang with no gutters, but maybe little overhang with those vent like gutters (http://www.rainhandler.com/) may work since the roof is metal and pretty steep.

Daddymem,

Same here in CT with the ice-damming. (damn ice)

My gutters usually freeze solid & water runs out the top - making a big mess, towards springtime-when water starts moving, but temps hover right around freezing.

Current home has no overhang  - so when gutter system fails - water is cascading down the side of the house.  

The rain handler's seem to answer the question of water removal & dispersion- I wonder how they do with a load of wet snow....

I like the idea of the Firstdays metal roof & eliminating gutters, but wonder - how much overhang is enough to keep water off the side of the house & also keep it away from the foundation.

Well, if you are up on your United States Geography and were wondering how FirstDay fared during all this flooding (Walpole is 1/2 hour northwest of Keene NH), all is well.  Of the dozen or so houses we are going to visit next weekend, a few are not reachable (due to roads and not home damage).  
This flood was amazing...we saw it first hand to a much lesser extent than Keene did, we were camping in West Ossipee on the Bear Camp River.  We arrived Friday afternoon to a very low and narrow river with a bank drop off of about 8 feet.  It POURED all night and day.  The river swelled, we were able to watch it rising up the bank (someone said at one point it rose 6" every 10 minutes.)  Camp sites got entirely flooded out (Mommymem may post pics).  The seasonal campers came and literally yanked their trailers, flat tires and all, right out of the sites.  We watched trees floating down the river.  We decided to pack up our rugrats...just in time.  The river overflowed the banks and over the road out.  We got the heck out of dodge and spent the night at my Gram's house.  We called the place on Monday and found out that the entire area we were in was flooded.  The portapotty next to our site is missing along with many picnic tables.  Everyone got out safely.

To give you an idea how much rain this is for the region, the 100 year frequency 24 hour storm volume is 6.2".  It was estimated that 8" of rain fell in a few hours in Keene and it wasn't hit as hard as Hinsdale!  There is more to come so we could still get washed out on our Walpole trip.  We'll keep you informed.

Chuck, on my mountain, 8' is not enough overhang to keep the rain from going 6' up the walls.  It rains horizontally here sometimes.  I think the rain screenwall is the answer to that.

Overhang is a big deal for me - when I look at Old houses - they all seem to have one thing in common - big overhangs...

I went up to Firstday in Walpole yesterday & saw some flood damage - but not many houses...You couldn't reach them! Bridges were out & time was short.

No worrys - I did get to see John Hyslop's house, a funky 16x30 original on a slab– which has made me a believer.  Yes it had overhangs...

Ideally, I would build J/R's 2 story 20x30 Farmhouse, as it is a beatiful design/house.
But, the firstday is looking more & more like viable option to get a home in a hurry - that doesn't look like you rushed.

If you do get up there - check out John's house - It is pretty cool.

Glenn - what's the screenwall?

Its where there is an air space behind the external siding so that when water does get behind it, it will rapidly drain out.  Not tight against the felt or moisture barrier so there is no capillary action to keep things wet inside.

O.K. Now you've got me thinking...

Let the siding dry from both sides.

Thanks Glenn

Here is a link to rain screen wall information, Chuck-- sorry I didn't have time to look for it earlier today.  Some is fairly complicated but the simpler stuff is there too and this should give you the idea.   You can even simplify it more if you desire.

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/imquaf/himu/upload/The-Rain-Screen-Wall-System.pdf

John is going to be our tour guide.  He mentioned a 22' wide house that isn't in the plans or on the web that could be interesting.  

We are going to look into ways to build a rain screen wall on the FirstDay as an option as well.

I would agree on some common characteristics of longevity houses:

• Good overhangs on the eaves and gable ends -16" to 30"
• Self draining siding such a horizontal lap over vertical nailers, board and batt or shingle on a double wall framing system w/ heavy asphalt paper or equal for housewrap.
• A concrete perimeter foundation (basement or crawlspace) with a taller than usual height above grade (18" to 36")
• The house is built in the right place on the property (has good air and water drainage, gets good light, solid well drained soil, etc.)

A 22 ft wide house?  By all means please keep us posted on this.  I have a small sliver of space on which we hope to build a granny flat.  22 ft sounds like a possible match for our building pad.

Yes, 22-foot.  I checked through the literature, the original is 16, the cape is 24, the saltbox is 26, therefore this 22 must be one of the brand new models John was talking about.  I'm hoping it is a modified original (1.5 story) as this will be closest to John R's floorplan for us and still be only a 2-bedroom.

Quote• Self draining siding such a horizontal lap over vertical nailers, board and batt or shingle on a double wall framing system w/ heavy asphalt paper or equal for housewrap.

How does board and batt act as self draining?  Aren't there horizontal nailers that can trap water?  Is there a way to do a rainscreen type wall for vertical jointed siding?  I understand the rainscreen walls and have read the various links we have seen on this board about them but I can't remember seeing a detail or photo of one with a siding that uses horizontal nailers, perhaps my memory has failed me.

It would be pretty easy to make horizontal nailers a drainage plane. I would just gang them together and cut some dados every 8" or so.

Board and batt over building felt does a pretty good job of making its own vertical drainage plane by stepping the panels in and out. Good air movement behind the boards with a vented groove usually no more than 4" away. Maybe this is why this type of siding is found on so many 100 year old buildings.

Well, we have postponed our visit until next week since the houses John wants to show us will be accessible by then.  And the Original model can be expanded to 18, 20, 22, or even 24 feet...wonder what John R's plan would run  ;D

Oh and John's house is being photographed for an article in Yankee magazine, so expect the orders to roll in and production to get backed up when the article goes out.

I have also been planning out a FirstDay in Cedar City, UT to start in March-April and am going back and forth between a Saltbox and and expanded original. The disadvantage to the expanded orginal is that the rafters start getting rather large and unwieldy and you need more people to haul them around. Also, you don't get the "vaulted" ceiling in the saltbox wing on the 1st floor. The advantage to the expanded original is you get a bit more useable space upstairs than 16', which makes planning 3 bedrooms upstairs more practical. I like the expanded orginal more than the cape, which only had windows on the ends.
I was just up there and was lucky to miss the flood! I had a fabulous time and go a chance to put up the rafters at Bill's house.

Dustin
dustinhollis@cox.net

PS- I also have some pictures from putting up rafters up on my blog. Click on the link to Bill's construction pictures.
http://www.hollishomestead.blogspot.com/

Cool, thanks for the info.  Getting very excited about our visit this weekend.

Anyone still interested in these??

Met with David Howard last weekend.

Getting finances in order then septic approved before we sit for plans.  Think I'm going with an 18' by 33'-4" or 40'.  And if I am ambitious, the garage.  Woodstove and radiant floor heating I hope.  You?  (I do suggest you talk with some of the clients on your own to learn any snags that could happen and ask for the Bowrench.)

Any luck adding a ride in one of his cars to the deal?  I'm shooting for the Cannonball Run Ferrari ;)  Seriously, it sounds like David is a very interesting person.  I bet it is a joy to converse with him.

Wife and I are still going back and forth between a 22' x 40' expanded Original and a 26'x 40' Salt Box.
The 22'x40' is more money, and the posts down the middle make kitchen planning wierd, but more room upstairs.
The Saltbox is perfect for us downstairs, but upstairs- I don't know if we want to squeeze 2 small bedrooms, a  master and a bath upstairs. We're getting a basement, so we figure we can migrate kids down to the basement when they get older (now 6, 3, and 3 months).... but they're too young to put downstairs now.
We also have a budget, and don't want to spend too much.
So, we're still figuring it out.
dustin
dustinhollis@cox.net

I have a blog set up on my housebuilding research/planning and eventually building adventure, with pics from my trip and from Bill Sainden's house I worked on while I was visiting FirstDay in NH:
http://hollishomestead.blogspot.com

We liked the idea of the wider homes....until we realized the posts down the middle were tough to design around.  John said that the 18' had joists that were manageable by two people.  He also said the 16' is on the way out when the new stair codes go through.  We have a floor plan we are working on similar to the 16x40 in the literature and it seems to take care of the "issues" we had with these houses before we got more information.  Our upstairs and downstairs bathrooms are on top of each other so no exposed plumbing issues.  The wider width gives us room to have a good sized eat in kitchen.  The width will give us a nice big bedroom for the kids to share upstairs.  It is kind of a blend of the Universal plan we bought here and the Original FirstDay taking strengths from both.  Now to get the permits....

Nice site by the way.  I noticed a lot about counters....have you checked out what they do with laminates lately?  You can get a really nice looking durable counter that you could replace 3-4 times for the same amount as some of the more expensive options like slate or granite.  We really were against laminates until we saw them first hand.

What did you think of John's floor?  Cool huh?  And the loft for his daughter...our kids will love ours.  I really liked his cabinets better than the FirstDay options and a little treatment for his floor and it would be exactly what we want...a bit beat up and lived on.  His pellet stove did turn us off those though...noisy.

I have lived with laminate countertops for over 20 years in our house. They are still in very good condition. The wood trim and backsplash is showing its age much more than the counters.

I almost always spec laminate for flat surfaces. There are materials that look better - especially in the glossy magazines, but nothing - not even stainless steel - is more indestructible and user friendly. And it's reasonably priced.  ;)

I just put in new flooring last month - went laminate there too. Boy is it ever easy to take care of!

I guess there are still a few interested...

David was very nice - He's a character.  

No ride in the Ferarri, but we did check it out.  He got the car as payment when given an impossible job and asked,

"what's it gonna take?" A black 308, baby...

On the houses - John's house had some cool ideas.  I particularly liked the big kitchen.  18x16?

We also visited Rick & Shelly's 16x40 in Allstead (wow)
They did a ton of work- staining the beams, whitewashing the inside of the pine sheathing, etc...

They had an interesting kitchen as well - again maybe 16 feet long & wide, with counter along 3 walls.  It was spread out nicely & felt "open"

Alstead was devastated - we toured the ruins with David & saw where the flood actually started.  

Apparently they will be selling houses to the flood victims, below cost.  Also, he is recruiting local firstday owners to help on the builds - may be a good chance for some experience with those evil looking rafters.

18 footer is the way too go.  Some changes have been made from the original:

Roof pitch is now 9/12 - and the stairs are a scissor set up, landing just about in the middle of the second floor.  The kneewall is 4.5ft.

I'm thinking 18x36. (11 bays) with a full basement.  David drew me up a quick plan for a 10 bay with 3 bedrooms upstairs.  The floorplan works out nice for what we want.

Oh yeah - LAMINATE all day long!  
I just recovered an old countertop that I had been waiting years to fix...and couldn't believe how easy it was.  I'll be starting out with laminates in the firstday.  On top of my home-built cabinets.

My only experience with laminates for the floor was in a pretty light duty commercial setting--a bookstore's coffee shop, where it could not ever look clean--soon after installation.  

Maybe they used the wrong kind of cleaners or something, but it truly always looked dreadful.

I've always had Formica--or Wilsonart or whatever--counters.  If I remember not to slice "just a few" vegetables on it it's wonderful.  But since I do do that, I'm wondering about other possibillities.

Speaking of laminates, I saw some interesting ones the other day that looked like stainless steel. Very cool. Ill try to find the link later.
I still think I will go with a combo of butcher block and soapstone or granite for my counters. I've had tile and now Corian, and I just like the look of real stone.

Hmm. I didn't think of this, but perhaps I could do a 18' x36 with the saltbox bumpout.... I'll have to ask David about it.

That would solve a LOT of problems. Now I have to get out the graph paper again..

They're changing the stairs, you say? I'll have to talk to David.

Yep - the stair is the scissor stair they have been talking about.  Takes up 2 bays and about half the width of the 18 footer.

When pulling out the graph paper realize something that Ididn't...The new roof pitch along with the scissor stair means hallway down the middle of the house.

The example I have shows the saltbox add on at 10' in length with a 5'6" final wall hight. This follows the roofline without a step.

Interesting...I'll have to consider that.  Sounds like you could get John's Universal floor plan as a FirstDay then...Any enlightnement on radiant heat with these?  I understand they send T&G decking with one groove cut off to put the tubes in.  But that means you have to cover over that beautiful wood with something else  :o  I dunno if I want to do that, but the benefit may be worth it.

Yeah,  now that I think of it - It sets up just the same .  With 3 bedrooms upstairs.

Not sure about the radiant - David seems to talk alot about using radiant in the basement.

Check out the Radnet for more technical info.
http://radnet.groupee.net/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/4771065301

A reply from John at Firstday:

What we do is supply 2 x 6's instead of the tongue and groove decking.  

You lay (2) 2 x 6's, then a .75 square piece of wood that you've ripped...then two more 2 x 6's etc, etc.  

The tubing runs on the top of the .75 square nestled between the 2 x 6's.

You then lay out 1 x 8 T&G (same stuff that you use for the walls) right over the top of it all and that is your finished flooring.


See what he means here:

http://www.hazbro.com/first-day/radiant.html

Yeah, that's what I thought.  I wasn't sure if they supplied the top T&G.  And John had said they supply T&G without one of the grooves..whichever, works fine by me.  Did you get to see the difference between one constructed with hammers and one with nail gun?  I'm not sure which way I'll go...with a hammer, the nails do show but no big deal...with a nail gun the nail penetrates deep (easy Glenn) but you could go back with sawdust and glue to fill in those holes.  I got to see both when we went up.  I know David dislikes nail guns, but John seemed to think they are fine.

I didn't notice-but John had mentioned NOT using a nail gun on the goalposts (bents) - as they will be seen later.  I think he also told me that he wetted down his beams to hide any hammer marks.

I guess he used a gun on his siding & probably the inner sheathing.

Are you going to install a woodstove?

I think your gun can be set for variable penetration Daddymem- it doesn't always have to go in deep.  Just back it off a little. :-/

We won't talk about steel right now.

Yeah I'm looking to install a woodstove.  I really like the looks of the Jotuls.  Hopefully we can use it primarily.  I have visions of rigging it up to work with the radiant heat too.

I know nothing about nail guns.  Guess you can say I am virginal glenn  ;D  I do know that when I use a hammer, you sure can tell it.  That is why I am unsure if I should explore using a gun or just hammer away at scrap wood until I get the hang of it.  I'm trying to remember which book I read that in...Working Alone maybe?  The book also suggested a heavier hammer than what contractors use...less blows to penetrate.  You experts, how true is that?  Anyone have information about the grades of wood?  These FirstDay cottages are made from "European" grade wood, "Japanese" grade was also mentioned.  I understand this has to do with the visual quality of the wood (knots, warps, bark), anything else (density, rot)?

Did you buy plans Chuck?  As soon as we get an ok on the septic and our equity line gets approved ($%&!#@$% bankers) we plan to pull our hat down tight and LeDoux it.

heavier hammers?

a) experience does count, but some angles and materials are miserable to nail.  When I was doing a lot of framing, up into a fascia board defeated me.  I'm slowly getting my chops back.

b) Currently I'm using a non-standard Estwing 20 oz. with an all-purpose handle.  It feels pretty good, but I may switch back to my old blue handled Estwing 16 oz.  But I do know people who had to have either fiberglass or wood handles.  It's a matter of taste.

I figure that the classic framing hammers--22-27 oz with the checked face, ultra long handles are not for me.  If I use the wrong hammer for almost any length of time, I'm facing a sore elbow for weeks.  (ick)   This was true when I was in my 30's.

But the "wrong hammer" could be the first on the rack in the store of seven apparently identical, the third could be the right one, especially with wood.  So swing a bunch.  You can't tell how the impact will affect your elbow and shoulder, but you can tell a lot.

c) Too light hammers are pretty useless for, say, a 16d triple galvanized nail.  A bigger hammer sometimes does make sense.  And vice versa.

Oh, yes, and I believe it's considered kosher to pre-drill big spikes.

After working on Bill Sainden's house, I have seen the light when it comes to air nailers. It does save a lot of time. I am definitely going to be purchasing a pair! Home Depot has a special on 2 nailers and a compressor for $300.
I have seen first hand the damage nailguns can do- my boss wasn't careful and shot a nail right thru his finger bone. Not good. But nailguns, if treated with respect, can save a lot of time.
Did you also notice the extra-heavy "Katrina bolts" on the rafters?
Bill put those in even though David's plan doesn't say to.. I think I'll be putting some in, just in case.

Got a link to the HD guns/compressor combo?  I don't even know where to begin when looking at these.  It looks like there are different types based on what job you are doing?  What do you use for framing for example?
My concerns arise from one of the houses I saw when visiting FD.  The nails penetrated the wood 1/10" or so so instead of seeing nail heads like John's house, you saw holes.  This isn't as important on stick built, but when you will be looking at these exposed structural memebers it becomes important.  I like the idea of the nail guns, I see Mommymem lending a hand more than with a hammer.  Can they be set easily to not penetrate through the wood?  I'd go to HD and ask these questions but rather get info from someone not trying to sell me something.

There are three main types of nailguns:
Framing (big nails)
Finish (smaller)
Brad (tiny)
 
You probably want one of each, but at least the first two.
You may want to go to HD, Lowes and Costco to see what's available and look at the quality. Obviously, buy the best quality tools you can afford.
You might see some deals this friday due to the Holiday.
You can also buy this stuff at amazon.com (pretty good prices too), and save money by not paying sales tax and shippping (anything over $25 is free shipping).
Look under:
 Tools & Hardware > Power Tools > Air Tools > Combo Packs


I suggested to David and John that they set up a First Day owner/builder Yahoo!Group, but haven't heard anything on that.

You know, about those holes made with the air nailer ..... a little wood puttty and sandpaper does wonders, especially before you polyurethane the whole house (and you don't see any nails or nail holes then).

Thanks Dustin.  My thoughts exactly on the nail holes.  I was thinking you could even dress those joists up with some pegs.

Amanda's information is right on.  "Don't hold your hammer like an old woman", my uncle used to tell me-- use the handle that is what it's there for.  Meaning don't choke up on it.  Heavy ones may give you the problems Amanda mentioned.  If anyone is offended by my uncles statement, sorry - he's dead now so I can't make him rephrase it to be PC or anything - he'd probably just tell me to go do unmentionable things to myself if I tried to make him change it anyway. :-/  He was a great old guy.

I have a Porter Cable - it was one of the cheaper ones at Home Depot.  No problems through thousands of nails.  Keep fingers clear - mine has nailed 2 hands neither of which were mine.  The main problem is holding wood near the nailer - first one goes like you plan but you are not ready for the bounce which sends the next nail through your nearby hand -appendage -digit -dedo etc.

I'm an all purpose type nail guy - big and lots.  I like 10d galvanized ring shank nails 3" - they don't stain your wood--- think of the house Daddymem.

Not all nails interchange- I'm currently using Senco because that is what HD had that fit most guns.  I think code specifies full head nails - not clipped.  Paslode nails have a different angle.

1/4" x 1" crown staples work good for many things - also, 1" crown x 2" long staples can be used to do sheetrock - they work great and only leave a easily filled slot where they penetrate the sheetrock.  

QuoteWife and I are still going back and forth between a 22' x 40' expanded Original and a 26'x 40' Salt Box.
The 22'x40' is more money, and the posts down the middle make kitchen planning wierd, but more room upstairs.
The Saltbox is perfect for us downstairs, but upstairs- I don't know if we want to squeeze 2 small bedrooms, a  master and a bath upstairs. We're getting a basement, so we figure we can migrate kids down to the basement when they get older (now 6, 3, and 3 months).... but they're too young to put downstairs now.
We also have a budget, and don't want to spend too much.
So, we're still figuring it out.
dustin
dustinhollis@cox.net

Would the 18" Original require a center post also? I'm very interested in the kits. I haven't seen any drawings of the "expanded" houses on the site so far. Do they intend to put some information out on them?

I think John said they can do a 20' max without center posts, but I could be wrong.  I know the 18' does not have them.  You can proabably contact John for examples for the expanded ones.  If you can get there, you really have to go.  It is truly amazing when you see one of these beauties in person, they just scream "home".

Daddymem is right on all counts.

I know the 18' does not use a post - but the rafters have to be beefed up to 12".  

Definately worth seeing one up close.

I guess where the expanded originals get tough, is moving the bigger built up beams & the larger rafters on the second floor.

When the houses get expanded out to 22-24' (like the cape) they use a post.

Thanks guys,
I would like to get up there before we buy and I have e-mailed with John some. It will be a few months before we need to get the kit, so maybe we'll have time to actually see one.
We're thinking of buying a 18x40 Original Firstday and using it to build two ... 18x16 sections with a traditional framed 8' section in the middle. The middle would be set back 4' from the front to give the appearance of an ole fashoned dog trott. The "L" shaped stairs would be in this section. Still working on the complete plan, but I can't see any problems.
John said that the ceiling height on the lower floor can be raised to 8'6" or 9'. The 12" beams will require a higher ceiling. This will also decrease the floor to beam heigth on the upper level.
We are also planning a 16x18 single level addition that will "T" off the back of the house. This will be the kitchen, pantry and master bath.
The overall look will be similar to an 1840's Farmhouse.
Any thoughts???????

Sounds good.

My buddies old cape is configured like that.

I've always liked it.

Williet:

Sounds interesting, do or can you give us a diagram?

Howard

Today, I e-mailed with John again. I think we will stick to the 16' X 40' Original. This will give us two 16' X 16' rooms on the first floor and an entrance hall of 8' X 16' (unless we decide to try a 2' set back for the front door). This set back will give the front of the house an appearance of a dog trot.  
I think we can achieve a look something like this.

---

The floor plan similar to this unless we go with the 12' addition all across the back of the house.

---

A chimeny on both ends with a wood burning fireplace in the living room and a Vermont castings stove in the bedroom. We will have either another stove in the kitchen corner (a potbelly) or a large picture window. The entrance hall will be framed to allow for an open ceiling and a wrought iron chandelier and have thin brick pavers as the floor. Primitive stairs with a water closet underneath.
We like the white washed walls with the stained beams.
Any suggestions ???  

Williet:

If you can achieve this look it would at least look amazing.  The rock work for chiminey always adds oodles (key) for this rustic look.  I realize this is an expensive cosmetic thing but could be built with block and then dressed with cultered stone.  One side would be enough dressing.  The full length porch leans more to cabin than farmhouse as does the type siding you choose.  A 12x18 add on could also serve as the master bdrm.  Thus, opening up a bigger living area.  Also making a seperate stove for the add on less priority ($$$).  A dog trott setback looks cool but takes a lot of space and reconfigurating and added construction time and money.  White washed walls in greens, Blues, reds, with stained beams are a huge enhancment.  As are white painted ceilings (when they are the wood decking).

Very much like this design.

A good picture speaks a thousand words, and adds a lot of resale value.

Howard

This design has some very interesting and universal features. It is easy to build and the 16' wide module needs no internal structure. It fits with the First Day system or could be easily framed conventionally (and be superinsulated).

Here is a modification set up for solar and light access to the cathedral ceiling area of the open Kitchen/Eating wing. That south wall could let light into this area and via the upper balcony area to the 2nd floor.

That puts the main entry on the north so, if needed that might become a view porch or patio and the entry could come in off the west porch.



Just one possible variation on these general plan ideas.

Looking at it a bit more... if the entry is on the west, then I think I would reverse the stair and start up in the hall nearer the entry. This allows a storage wall under the stair along the hall headed north.

Click here to download a larger image for printing.
http://www.countryplans.com/Downloads/16x36-frm-lg.jpg

Thanks for the replies. We are still working on the final plan, but the basic design will be much like this. John, I like the stairs in your drawing. Storage is always needed. The add on at the rear of the house will be used as a kitchen, eating area and pantry. We also want a large master bath and it seems to be the best fit for that. I'm trying to do this with the idea of our "living" on the first floor and the upper floor will be for the grandkids (when they visit).
The porch off the master bedroom and kitchen will be screened.
That's about it .....
Ideas are always welcome.

If you reverse the stair and use the lower Bdrm as the Mstr you can use the under stair area for the closets.

John,
We're thinking of a toilet and sink under the stairs. Do you think that'll work?

Yes, I think it will. You can do a little W.C. in 36" - more space is better but a standard stair width will work.

Wow! I have to say I really like that plan idea. I believe, with some slight tweaking, this is the plan for us. We have been agonizing about how to design around the shape of the standard firstday or firstday+saltbox design, and I finally think this is it.  I think I'd cut the downstairs bath area in half and turn one half into a mini mudroom area (nearest the outside wall) and the other half a small bath.
I think I'd make the top part 18'x24' and the bottom part 16'x36'. This comes out to 1720 sq ft, neatly within my budget range, plus I'll have a nice 1008' sq ft.  basement underneath to finish out later.

Now off to talk with David tomorrow about adapting it and getting a quote...

Dustin,
If you do get a quote, please share it with me so I'll have an idea. Today, John said the basic kit would be around $28 Per sq. ft. I thought that was great.
I'll try to get to the sketch of what we're thinking on.  

Yeah, I'll have to ask how they would count the square footage for the loft. I haven't seen any designs with a vaulted ceiling, so who knows? I really like the idea of having the vaulted ceilings in the kit/dining area.

Just thought of something on my way to work today:

You'd need to rent a crane to get the rafters up over the portion of the house that it vaulted. (if you can think of another way, let me know, but the way we got the rafters up was by 2-3 of us standing on the 2nd floor)

Is there anything special we need to do to connect the two house segments together?

I'll find out when I talk to David, I guess. I'm not sure what his feeling is on vaulted portions.

I haven't talked to them about the connection of the two house sections, but I have done it in log houses, and seen it done in an old barn turned house. There are a couple of ways depending on whether or not you want to use the goalpost that comes with the kit or frame the middle section in a traditional way.
I think what I'm leaning toward is tying a beam between the 5th and 7th goalpost. (Cutting the front leg off the 6th and placing the floor joist atop the beam). This will allow the weight of the floor and the rafter to be supported by the beam(triple 2"x12") and allow the front door to be centered in the facade. If you desire an off set for a dog trot look ... you can frame the door back a couple of feet from the front wall. As the center section is only a hall the space restrictions are controlled by having enough distance to allow for the stairs and the doors leading to the living area and master bedroom. From the front wall back, you need about 5' for a door and another foot to the bottom step. In a 16' house this will leave 9' for the lower stair footprint if you have a 2' setback. If you don't set back the door, you will have 11' for the stairs. There's plenty of room in the 18' plan, but the cost is greater and the house is harder to build.
The set back (dog trot effect) is nice looking, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble and money, since it's covered by a porch anyway.
These are just some ideas that you might want to discuss with the folks at FirstDay. There's not alot of modification to the kit and the result is nice.

Amazon compressor nail gun deal has gotten sweeter if anyone is still looking:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DCBKX/ref=nosim/102-9793087-6732960?n=228013
$285.74
Take $50 off $250 with BUYERSAVEMMM (til 12/21)
Total: $235.74

-OR-

Amazon compressor nail gun deal has gotten sweeter if anyone is still looking:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DCBKX/ref=nosim/102-9793087-6732960?n=228013
$285.74
Get this sander free:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000256RVO/ref=nosim/102-9793087-6732960?n=228013
The rebate:
http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/00/10/00/13/57/61/100013576141.pdf

Try both at your own risk, YMMV..."not to be combined with other offers" clause on rebate form.

Thanks! This clinched the deal for me. I just ordered it. What an awesome deal, and I get a free sander too!!
In case you're curious:

Subtotal of Items:        $285.74
Shipping & Handling:        $9.99
Super Saver Discount:       -$9.99
Promotion Applied:       -$50.00
       ------
Total for this Order:         $235.74

Now I have to go find a used framing nailer. Those suckers are expensive! Hmm, a check at harbor friegght shows some chinese brand available for about $80.
I'll have to think about it.

I've been told that the Porter Cable framer uses an odd angle that may be difficult to find.  Bostich or Paslode would be good.  I'm tempted on the offer too, but I'm not sure there is enough umph in this one to be useful for non-building tasks in the future (auto work).

Still haven't been able to get ahold of David yet. Hopefully will soon. I was also thinking about the design: You could make it a bit more "open" by moving the top section over to the right and making the house more of an "L" shape. You could open up the wall between the kitchen/dining and the living room, thus not isolating folks in the kitchen so much.

What do you guys think?

QuoteThanks! This clinched the deal for me. I just ordered it. What an awesome deal, and I get a free sander too!!
In case you're curious:

Subtotal of Items:        $285.74
Shipping & Handling:        $9.99
Super Saver Discount:       -$9.99
Promotion Applied:       -$50.00
       ------
Total for this Order:         $235.74

Now I have to go find a used framing nailer. Those suckers are expensive! Hmm, a check at harbor friegght shows some chinese brand available for about $80.
I'll have to think about it.

If you do any woodworking, the sander is a good one. I don't know about the nail guns. For furniture, I just use a hammer.

The Porter Cable FR350 is the one I have  --- it uses standard angle nails- I use the Senco galvanized ring shank nails in mine -- the Paslode is the odd one- uses their nails - this applies to the gas actuated one - I don't know if they make a standard angle one or not.  I had an old gas actuated Paslode - I liked it but it quit working - I heard that the newer ones are much better --No air hose or compressor tofool with.

I think the Paslode is 30 degree angle nails and the others are 21 degrees-- from memory- to lazy to go look.

Note that the compressor in the above package is on the low output side-- 2.6 cfm @90 psi-- It will work for most DIY projects but there are better small compressors out there with about 6 cfm @ 90 psi -- needed for impact wrenches etc -maybe texture guns too - the option is do a little then wait for the compressor to catch up.  The larger compressor may cost more than this whole package though.

Well, it's something I can afford, and it's an investment for building my house. If I need more, I'll buy more. I saw how much time having a nailgun save you, even though they can be dangerous, so I think they're worth it.
I just talked to my employer last week and found out they would be interested in keeping me on as a consultant/on-call employee even though next year I'm moving out of Arizona to build my new house on 2 1/2 acres in Cedar City UT. This means that I will have the time and flexibility to build my own house probably 75% of the time, instead of commuting to work every day.  Talk about a load off my shoulders.
Now I have to pray that wireless internet makes it to my home site, otherwise I have to go with satellite. Think I can get it though...I have seen little patch antennas around the area.

I've got some challenges, like putting in a septic, pulling power 1000' (if it costs too much I think we may just do solar), fixing the dirt "road" to our lot, grading a drive way, drilling a well, putting in a water system, getting the basement done, all before I can start working on my house.
Whew.

I also found a very cool place out here in Phoenix called "Construction Lots!", which seems to be a closeout constuction materials depot, with clearance plumbing fixtures, tile, doors, ovens, cooktops, hardware, etc.  Some pretty good deals. Once we sell our house and I'm flush with cash, we plan on doing some shopping.

No question that it's a good deal even just with the air tools for that price - you can't lose.  

I have one Harbor Freight brad nailer - it works okay with an occasional annoyance - c-clips fall off trigger pin - contact safety trigger bends - metal a little soft so it goes out of line once in a while - as PEG says - the best tools are worth the investment - usually not many problems with them, but if it means having something  to do the job you couldn't afford otherwise, sometimes it pays to do it then upgrade as you can afford it.  I do it myself.  If you can find a good quality used tool and get it cheap enough -Ebay etc - then rebuild it as necessary you can sometimes come out ahead.  I got a Skill 77 worm drive at a yard sale for $30- contractor selling off old and extra tools after a big casino job.  Well worn but works great.  I was quite sure it wasn't stolen -I won't buy from a thief as I wouldn't want someone else to buy my tools that way.

Ok, I was up late last night working on plans. Tell me what you guys think of them.
Go to my weblog to see them at:
www.hollishomestead.blogspot.com

I like it.  Are you working with David already on how the two houses attach? (rooflines, posts at marriage wall, etc)  I'm interested, not that we would build two abutting right now, but we are going for a two bedroom that we will expand into three in a few years and the location for our future addition would work similar to your layout...just pushed down to a corner instead of the middle.

Dustin:

Some thoughts on your plan...
Upper floor - Reverse the door swing Bdrm-1, closet for MstrBdrm?
Main floor - The stair will likely need to be longer (14R @ 7.5" = 8'-9" floor to floor and means 13T @ 10" = 10'-10"). More if you need another riser. Is the room behind the office a utility room? (too narrow for that use, could be pantry).

I talked to John and he said there was no problem with it. I forwarded the plan ideas to him and he said he'd have David get back to me. Hopefully we can work out something.
John did say that the best stair, if your region/code authority allows it, is still the straight staircase, since doing any other way is much more difficult. So I put that in, since it takes up the least square footage.

I forgot to label the room on the first floor behind the office in that plan. It's a mudroom/pantry. It doesn't have to be very big, and I figure I'll put in lockers and shelves, and tile the floor. I figure I could have my garage on the side of the house with a little covered walkway to the porch and our main exit/entry would be that side door. Since we're moving to snow country, my wife insists on a mudroom to dump off coats, boots, gear, etc before tromping about the house.  We have 2 young boys and a baby girl, so I think we'll have heavy use of it.
Good thought about the stairs. I will add a foot. I thought I made them 8', I'll make the space 9'.
The lower right part of the master bed is the closet, I think. It may only be big enough for one of us, and I'll have to build something else on the south side, too.
I may also squish the upstairs bathroom a bit and move the bathtub downstairs, I haven't decided yet.

Speaking of mudrooms:
It's wierd, but our family has gotten in the habit of always going through the garage to go in or out of the house. We have a typical suburban house with an attached garage and a really tiny laundry room leading to the garage.  I HATE this room, since it becomes the default drop off point for everything (which equals mess, since there is no storage or organization there, nor room to put any) and since it's really small it becomes a choke point for coming in the house. Anyhow, I hope that having this mudroom will fix that problem, since I'll build some shelving and lockers and a bench so everyone can drop off thier junk before getting in.  We'll see.

Anything new on these houses? You guys still out there????

I'm meeting David on the 27th to draw up our floorplans.  Septic design is at the BOH, meeting for variance on the 3rd.

Yet another nailer deal at Amazon:
Porter-Cable CFBN125A Brad Nailer/Compressor Combo Pack
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004NS0J/ref=nosim/102-9793087-6732960?n=228013
$197 with free shipping, but hold on....
buy some more things to bring your total to $250 total and take $50 off with code BUYERSAVEMMM

From Amazon:
It produces 135 psi and has a 6-gallon capacity, enough to support heavy use of brad and finish nailers or moderate use of framing nailers.

The above one only includes the 18 gauge, 1-1/4-inch brad nailer - no finish nailer.  Note that brad nailers are available to 2" log.  I like the longer brad nailer because I don't have a finish nailer so use the brad nailer on a lot of things.

Any kind of power tool is helpful but I like the longer capacity. :)

QuoteSpeaking of mudrooms:
It's wierd, but our family has gotten in the habit of always going through the garage to go in or out of the house. We have a typical suburban house with an attached garage and a really tiny laundry room leading to the garage.  I HATE this room, since it becomes the default drop off point for everything (which equals mess, since there is no storage or organization there, nor room to put any) and since it's really small it becomes a choke point for coming in the house. Anyhow, I hope that having this mudroom will fix that problem, since I'll build some shelving and lockers and a bench so everyone can drop off thier junk before getting in.  We'll see.

I give you an "A-MEN Brother!"

it would be awesome to move an extra hundred square feet into ours!

I haven't heard back much from David. I have only been able to get ahold of John. He says, with a few minor changes, we could do the plan, even though they have never done one with a vault before, just a 1 storey bump-out add on. I like the 2 storey vault much, much better, becuase I can easily expand that space by putting walls and a floor down, say if our family grows any more..  Hopefully we can finalize plans soon. I need to get those before I get serious bids for the house.
So far, much of my estimating has been done by talking to folks and tools like building-cost.net.
I notice house prices around here have dropped a significantly. Urg. It means I won't get as much to escape with. I wonder if they'll continue to go down or back up again after Xmas?

I wonder if there will be racking issues they will have to address with the full 2nd story loft?  If there are and the fix is expensive or you lose the feeling you are trying for, what about creating a bridge to a small loft section at the end of the addition?  Walk through the loft area down the middle of the floor along a 3'-4' wide bridge with rope (or other) railing to a small sitting area over the kitchen.  I love cathedral ceilings (most of my current house is cathedral), but preffer the feeling of a ceiling in a kitchen, it just feels a little cozier. Might add some interest to the view up from the dining room, and create a cool little place you can hide in and still be in the middle of the action.  Just dreaming outside of the box....

Ok, in the latest iteration of this plan, I moved the vault over the living room and put the master over the kitchen. This looks a lot better to me, and somehow saves me some square footage.  I think I may also shrink the top half from 18'x20' to 16'x20', to save money. To see it, check out my blog under "Still Waiting":
http://hollishomestead.blogspot.com

I may be wrong, but I understood that this type of  house gains it strength not so much from the floor (which would be the only thing missing), but from the bents, rafters, and especially the interior/exterior sheathing (I really noticed the difference in how it all tied together once the sheathing went on when I walked around one without any sheathing and one with- the one with sheathing didn't "wiggle" at all). I'm not structural engineer, I'll have to rely on David's opinion on that, but they did say it was possible to do.

I have no idea on the structural either-I'm a site guy myself, just taking some pot shot guesses.  Nice looking layout you have there.

That mini-loft idea might work if I need to add more flooring in the loft to reinforce it. Hope I don't.
Along the same lines, David also suggested something I could add if I can afford it: a little reading nook cupola on the top, accessable by a ship's ladder. Basically. it's built on the collar braces of the rafters and has it's own little roof with windows all around and seats on two sides, with a trap door entry. It might be at most, 4'x8'.  He said he'd include it in the plans and it might cost me another $5000, if I could get it approved.
It's be an interesting space, with a fabulous 360' view. My wife, understandably (we have three kids under 6), thought it would be a great place for her to escape occasionally.

Sounds neat...we have a lot of similar things called "widows walks" around here; it is where the ship captain's wife would pace waiting to catch a glimpse of her husband's ship coming home.  Of course you have to have something nice to look at...I wonder if I could see the pond from the top of my house, wait I live in the land of approvals don't think I'll even try.

QuoteAlong the same lines, David also suggested something I could add if I can afford it: a little reading nook cupola on the top, accessable by a ship's ladder. Basically. it's built on the collar braces of the rafters and has it's own little roof with windows all around and seats on two sides, with a trap door entry. It might be at most, 4'x8'.  He said he'd include it in the plans and it might cost me another $5000, if I could get it approved.
It's be an interesting space, with a fabulous 360' view. My wife, understandably (we have three kids under 6), thought it would be a great place for her to escape occasionally.

Oh my!  I've only got the one under-six-year-old, and I think it's definitely worth the $5000!   :)

QuoteOk, in the latest iteration of this plan, I moved the vault over the living room and put the master over the kitchen. This looks a lot better to me, and somehow saves me some square footage.  I think I may also shrink the top half from 18'x20' to 16'x20', to save money. To see it, check out my blog under "Still Waiting":
http://hollishomestead.blogspot.com

I may be wrong, but I understood that this type of  house gains it strength not so much from the floor (which would be the only thing missing), but from the bents, rafters, and especially the interior/exterior sheathing (I really noticed the difference in how it all tied together once the sheathing went on when I walked around one without any sheathing and one with- the one with sheathing didn't "wiggle" at all). I'm not structural engineer, I'll have to rely on David's opinion on that, but they did say it was possible to do.

No engineer here either, just someone who loves old houses. If I'm right ... all the support on these houses is in the bents. The sheathing will hold it together, so you can do what you like to the inside. Of course, the flooring would add the the stability of the structure. Maybe the folks at FirstDay can help.
I still haven't had time to draw a real plan for our house, but it will be similar to the one you have. We like the open ceilings, but the space can be used for another room and the lower ceiling (8' or 9') will make the house easier to heat.
Something to keep in mind too, is the placement of the plumbing and lighting fixtures. No matter how cool the space, it will not be as attractive if there are pipes or wires running up a wall or hanging from a ceiling. I know in log houses the hiding of these was always an important consideration.
Please let us know what you find out in your meeting.  

OK, I've finally got ahold of David and we're going back and forth on design ideas. I was up late last night working on some, based on his suggestions. The good thing is that I confirmed we can definitely do the cathedral ceiling feature.
My lastest idea is up on my blog, http://hollishomestead.blogspot.com
The challenge is finding ways to get all functions I want and hide the plumbing somewhere near interior walls.
Now, if only my house would only sell sooner....

I find the Firstday interesting, but how cost effective is it compared to building from scratch with easy to build type plans? One factor I've thought about is the fact that you get all of the material to build the Firstday all at once. This means you better have a good chunk of time to put it together as opposed to doing like Jimmy and ordering materials as he find the time to build. To lose a big chunck of time from making money from my work wouldnt make it worth it to me. I guess if it fits your personal situation its a good way to do it.

Looks good.  One thought we had on plumbing was to hang lattice from the ceiling (ours would be in the kitchen and the entry way), or put an actual ceiling in these areas to break up the wood scheme a bit.

There are some advantages:
All the materials needed are included except for plumbing, foundation, appliances, fixtures and electrical.
You have an architect to assist you designing your home and are provided with a full set of plans.
You have technical (phone) assistance with the building of your home.
You have a predesigned process that is created for first-time builders.
They will help you find financing.
They will help you work with the permit process.
FirstDay homes are beautiful!


Disadvantages:
If you've taken on a project like this in the past, then you might not need the support they provide. You can save some money here.
Depending on where you live, you may pay quite a bit for the materials to be shipped. (After having seen the quality of the materials package, I think it's worth it however, even though I am having them shipped across the country.)

Having looked at all this, I feel that First Day was the right choice for me.

One thing I did notice is that we could hide plumbing by boxing in sections of the ceiling or wall and using either more wood or painted sheetrock. I could also take the opportunity to use those places to put can (or other types) lights and hide electrical runs.
Having looked at the pictures from other FirstDays, and after touring some, I feel the house would actually benefit from a little painted sheetrock to break up all the "wood-ness", and have seen several examples of this.
By the way, have you noticed the activity on this thread? 103 replies and 3000+ views!
Gee willikers!

They don't have to ship it all at once.  Two deliveries I think and it could be different for different size houses.  This 24 footer they have is really gonna do it for them I think because it is very close to what people think of as a conventional house as opposed to the narrow 16-footer they have.  I am trying to convince my wife to do one wall per room with drywall painted brightly too.  What I really like is the simplicity of the construction, just looking at them you can pretty much figure out how to build it.

I need to ship it all for me since it would save on shipping. For you, on the east coast, it would be no big deal.

Yeah, a couple of boom truck deliveries.

Do you guys know if they have ever built any Firstdays in FL. Some of the Prefab websites I've checked out say in the fine print "not available in FL". I'd like to see them do a Firstday on Assembly Required on the DIY network.

Talk to John: info@firstdaycottage.com He'll get back to you quickly.  I thought I heard something about setting something up in Louisiana or Alabama but I forgot to ask about that.

QuoteTalk to John: info@firstdaycottage.com He'll get back to you quickly.  I thought I heard something about setting something up in Louisiana or Alabama but I forgot to ask about that.

I'm in North Alabama and I'd sure love to see one. They told me the closest was in Ky.(I think) .... He did say that I could get one when we were ready ... just not one close by yet.

Welll, things have changed again.
Talked to David, and found out that I would have to pay full price for the loft space. This made the house 2000' sq ft, which is WAY bigger than I want to pay for, I was looking at more like 1700' sq ft max.
So, the loft idea is out for now, and it's back to the drawing board again. I might do a 18'x40' or 18'x36' and add a little 16'x18' one-storey bump-out for the living room. This is very close to my design and adaptable. I just need to move things around.
On the other hand, I could build one of those new 24'x36' houses, but the posts down the middle keep getting in the way of my designs!

Did David or John send you any plans for the 24 x?  I can email a pdf of ours.

Sure, I'd like to see it- send it over. Is that what you're going with, a 24'x36'?

dustinhollis@cox.net

24x33-4 comin at ya

Quote24x33-4 comin at ya

Hey Daddy,
Would you copy me too on the plans?
williet_6757@yahoo.com

 sure, when I get home from work.
sent

Hello, we pretty much have our plans all fiqured out for our firstday.  We are now trying to get the financing.  So was wondering what others experience was with this type of house.  We where with one bank that approved us just fine, but then because they had never heard of a construction of this type, and where so much was shipped at once, said they would only  release the funds for the house until it arrived, which prohibits getting the foundation ready for when the package arrived.  So we have decided to try IndyMac, has anyone here used them, and did if go well?   If anyone has links to there sites showing the progress of there firstdays, please post!! Thanks

We went with a local branch, but with real estate so high and us owning both a home now and land to build on, it may be a bit easier for us.  The vast majority of our costs will be covered with the sale of our current home and with the credit line we have we can get a good start without the construction loan.  

We took out a line of credit on the home we live in, to purchase the land, clear it, pay for power, and water, etc.  We need the loan for the house package, and foundation, buildiing permits etc.  Once we sell our house, with another lot , we too should be able to take care of most of the constuction cost.  We are building a faily sizeabe firstday, roughly 2700 sg ft saltbox, with addition that will have a catherdral the full height of the house.  Our problem isn't getting the money, it is the local branch where we are moving to not understanding the firstday, they approved us for more than asking for.  They just won't release any other funds to have the site ready to start the house until they are sure we have everything they will have paid for to firstday.  We dont' owe anything on the 5 acres we are building on, and the value has almost doubled in the little over year we have owned it, the bank just dosen't understand this house, they want to treat it like a manufactured.  Thanks for your quick response!!

QuoteWe took out a line of credit on the home we live in, to purchase the land, clear it, pay for power, and water, etc.  We need the loan for the house package, and foundation, buildiing permits etc.  Once we sell our house, with another lot , we too should be able to take care of most of the constuction cost.  We are building a faily sizeabe firstday, roughly 2700 sg ft saltbox, with addition that will have a catherdral the full height of the house.  Our problem isn't getting the money, it is the local branch where we are moving to not understanding the firstday, they approved us for more than asking for.  They just won't release any other funds to have the site ready to start the house until they are sure we have everything they will have paid for to firstday.  We dont' owe anything on the 5 acres we are building on, and the value has almost doubled in the little over year we have owned it, the bank just dosen't understand this house, they want to treat it like a manufactured.  Thanks for your quick response!!

I thought FirstDay would help with the banking ..... We will pay for it when we purchase it, so I haven't looked into this aspect of the "kit" .... but I'm sure I read somewhere the folks at Firstday would help.

That's their claim.  We went local and were able to pop open the webpage, show them brochures, explain to them there would be two deliveries with payment due...they listened and they were fine with it.  If your bank doesn't go for it, try another and another until one helps or ask John or David for some help.

Klaus,

could you just rent a lockable metal shipping reefer ("construction trailer") and have all the kit delivered into that?
That's what I'm planning to do. (unless I get my garage done before the house, which is another possibility)
Then you can work out of your kit.

You might also want to speak with a mortgage person who deals with Log Home building mortgages. They work in a similar fashion.

I finally completed my plans today! I faxed over my semi-final tweaks today. I just talked to David and he says plans are coming soon.
I'll out my plans up on my blog when I get a chance tonight.
Hurray! Now it's subcontractor interview and quoting time...
(and packing stuff in boxes time)

QuoteYou might also want to speak with a mortgage person who deals with Log Home building mortgages. They work in a similar fashion.

I finally completed my plans today! I faxed over my semi-final tweaks today. I just talked to David and he says plans are coming soon.
I'll out my plans up on my blog when I get a chance tonight.
Hurray! Now it's subcontractor interview and quoting time...
(and packing stuff in boxes time)

Look forward to seeing them..... and GOOD LUCK.

QuoteYou might also want to speak with a mortgage person who deals with Log Home building mortgages. They work in a similar fashion.

I finally completed my plans today! I faxed over my semi-final tweaks today. I just talked to David and he says plans are coming soon.
I'll out my plans up on my blog when I get a chance tonight.
Hurray! Now it's subcontractor interview and quoting time...
(and packing stuff in boxes time)

Phew! Just in time for David to leave on his trip. Yay you. :)

Ok, my rough sketch adaption is up on the blog now.
I'll have to spend some time modifying my Punch! version to get them the same. I also should do the basement eventually, but since we decided not to finish it right away to save money (just laundry, food storage, junk storage, and utility for now, maybe rough bathroom), it's no biggie.
I also need to start on my electrical plan, plumbing plan, lighting plan, etc.

When David comes through with the final plans (hopefully very very soon) I'll get them up too.

So, what, there's three of us so far that are building FirstDay's on this board? I think it's very, very cool that there's more than just me. I suggested to John H. and David to start a Yahoo! Group for First Day folk, but I doubt they will do it. David is not very computer literate and John H. didn't seem too interested.
I'm just glad John R. (our host) has this fantastic forum for us to congregate in and discuss the issues and doesn't mind us spending some much time yakking about FirstDays. The good thing is, most of the issues we face with building FirstDays are much the same issues we would face building John R.'s plans, so it benefits everyone to hear.

It seems to me that FirstDay is getting too much business.  David seems genuinely interested in helping people build their own houses and he wants to be a part of all their experiences so he doesn't want to grow so big that he doesn't get to meet the people building his houses.  My guess is they get enough business by word of mouth and when that Yankee Magazine article runs their phone is gonna ring off the hook.  

Yeah, he told me Oprah called and wanted them on. Can you imagine is just 1% of the viewers of Oprah wanted to buy a First Day? Talk about swamped!
They're swamped already!

Thanks for the replies on financing.  We are going to continue with Indy Mac and see where that takes us, now just waiting for my husband to get time to fill in all the technical info, I don't know! We are living 2600 miles apart trying to accomplish this!!
I think this is a great forum! I saw someone mention about a yahoo group, any one of us could start it, you just need someone to moderate it.  I am really getting anxious to get started on the house.  For those of you who have built yours, is the time frame for building them similar to what they suggest?  Ours is bigger than some, so I do realize that will add to it.  We are building a salt box, 26 x 56 with upstairs the 16 x 56, then a catherdral room 16 x 23, and the front porch along this room, the width of the salt box, hope that makes sense.  I hope to start a web site to show the progress.  Would love to see any others?
Thanks

You want to figure 1 hour per square foot per person.
You've got a pretty big house for a firstday, so I would say that you're probably going to need a crew of helpers to get it done in a year.
Mine is about 1720 sq ft (I have a basement I'm not finishing though) and I think it's almost too big!
1456+ 896 + 368 = 2720 sq ft...that's a big house for a First Day!  If you figure an hour a square foot, and you have 2 people working on it full time - 40 hour work week, x 4 weeks, x 2 people, it will take you 8.5 months- you have a long ways to go.

You may want to consider scaling down and putting it on a basement since you won't be doing that part, except for the finish work. This will get you "free" square footage that you don't have to build.

If you're having a huge crew build it for you, it's not big deal then.

I have heard that they are going to put Saltboxes and other larger houses on a waiting list becuase they are already pretty swamped, and they don't want to build really large houses. I'm betting they will eventually standardize on one or two house types (the basic original 18x30 and the 24x36 house) with a couple a floor plans you pick from and that's it.  They can't continue the volume without doing it. This is a two man operation and more a labor of love from David than anything else.

QuoteYou want to figure 1 hour per square foot per person.
You've got a pretty big house for a firstday, so I would say that you're probably going to need a crew of helpers to get it done in a year.
Mine is about 1720 sq ft (I have a basement I'm not finishing though) and I think it's almost too big!
1456+ 896 + 368 = 2720 sq ft...that's a big house for a First Day!  If you figure an hour a square foot, and you have 2 people working on it full time - 40 hour work week, x 4 weeks, x 2 people, it will take you 8.5 months- you have a long ways to go.

You may want to consider scaling down and putting it on a basement since you won't be doing that part, except for the finish work. This will get you "free" square footage that you don't have to build.

If you're having a huge crew build it for you, it's not big deal then.

I have heard that they are going to put Saltboxes and other larger houses on a waiting list becuase they are already pretty swamped, and they don't want to build really large houses. I'm betting they will eventually standardize on one or two house types (the basic original 18x30 and the 24x36 house) with a couple a floor plans you pick from and that's it.  They can't continue the volume without doing it. This is a two man operation and more a labor of love from David than anything else.

Dustin,
When I talked with them, they said there was no intention to do away with the '16 wide house. Some of what is said on these threads lead me to believe FirstDay is planning to do away with it. We plan to try to start a house the first part of next year .... Can you help me with this confusion?

What we were told was they were doing away with the saltbox and the cape and were pushing towards doing the 1.5 story cape only but would do an 18' wide original if asked.  The wider original had to do with the stairs not meeting international codes.  They are really swamped up there so if you want quick, I think you are dealing with a stock version.  John reads this forum sometimes, perhaps he can give the official answer.

Firstday is shying away from the Saltbox and any custom work.  That doesn't mean we're doing away with them....just that we can only commit to supporting projects that are viable.  The 16' house is a great little house.  I'm very happy with mine.  The stair code is a problem in some areas though.  The 18' house is harder to build than either a 16' or a 1.5 story 24' wide Cape but.....it solves the stair code problem.

The Saltbox requires more material and much more labor than a Cape or other design with the same square footage.  The reality of it is that most folks who ask us about the Saltbox want 1700-2000 sq. ft houses.  They are too big.  A couple simply can't devote almost a full year to building a house.    

I've only done 30 or so take offs and helped with a couple dozen homes since I began working at Firstday but it is obvious when doing the math that there is a true "sweet spot" in owner built homes between 1000 and 1400 sq. ft.  Those customers end up maintaining better cost discipline over the entire project, the house is sized physically so that they can FINISH it in a few months and they end up being able to build the entire thing themselves without a contractor.  

Daddymem and Mommymem are going to build an almost ideal house.  A 24' x 32' 1.5 story Cape.  For 75% of our customers, THAT is the house that is going to make the most sense for them.  Dustin is building a custom house based on the 18' design and he's hiring professional carpenter's to do it.  A couple couldn't raise the bents in an 18' house.  

If anyone has questions, concerns or comments, please feel free to contact me at any time.
info@firstdaycottage.com          

I am going to be doing a lot of the work, but I am bugeting a few bux (about $10,000) for help. I obviously can't do the work alone, and my wife is going to spending most of her time chasing kids.  She can help me do finish labor after the major house structure is up. So I will hire some laborers (probably some 19 yr. olds from church at $8 /hr) to help.

I wish I had found First Day when we were first married and we didn't need so much room. John's 16x36 would have been perfect for us for many years. The 1700' sq ft. house we are living in now is almost too small.
I am also building a slightly larger house than they would like, at 1720 sq ft, but I have a growing family of 6 years, 3 years and 6 month old kids, and maybe more in the future.
I needed to have 3 bedrooms upstairs and and 18'x40' with a little add-on for the living room. We will have a basement, but the lot we have is totally flat and not really too conducive to a walk-out basement. We will probably have a 9' basement  with 3'-4' above ground, and will finish it some time after the house is built. I will have enough equity in the sale of my existing home to pay for approximately half of this project. The rest I can get a good loan for and pay it off in 7-10 year and be mortgage free!

Here's the latest take on the plan:





I'm waiting for finals from David but it should be very, very close to this.

I can't wait to start!

QuoteHere's the latest take on the plan:





I'm waiting for finals from David but it should be very, very close to this.

I can't wait to start!

Anything new with the plans?

I don't know what the holdup is. I thought John was going to send them out last week, but no dice yet. Hopefully soon. Maybe got lost in the mail? I'm about to ask for a scan to be emailed to me while I wait.

John probably has his hands full....David went to Florida.  Our plans were held up a bit with the structural engineer too so you might be feeling a combined slow down.

QuoteJohn probably has his hands full....David went to Florida.  Our plans were held up a bit with the structural engineer too so you might be feeling a combined slow down.

You got any pictures, Daddymem? Maybe a web site to follow your construction????

Yep, check my sig  ;)  Mommymem is running a FirstDay webring and there's a link off her blog for a Yahoo group too.

You know, I wanted to do a yahoo group for First Day builders for a long while now (look at some of my older posts), but never got permission or support from David and John to do it.
I better go join.

BTW, I noticed I'm not a YaBB newbie anymore!

I wanted to lighten the load regarding the FirstDay Cottage thread so it didn't seem like we were spamming here. So I got the ok from Glen that I could post the link to the Yahoo group for FirstDay for anyone to join.
All are welcome to join even if you aren't building a FirstDay Cottage.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FDBuilders/

Hello everyone, been a long time!

I'm researching some ideas for tiny additions around our doors.  What I want is an enclosed, unheated area 6x6-ish, off our front and back doors.  I am tossing around the idea of all stick built, or a stick built platform with vinyl or aluminum sunroom style.  What I want is an airlock on each door.  One big weakness on FD homes is the extra insulation makes the doors just not work right, the walls are too thick for conventional doors.  I want to bring my door to the outside face and then have the airlock room.  I want the room to have a storm door and I want to be able to open it up (screened) in the summer.  It would give a sheltered place to hold the groceries in your hands while fumbling for keys out of the rain.  It would make it easier to keep cats and dogs from running out.  It would provide a place for deliveries to be dropped off.  If big enough it would be a place with a bench to take shoes off to keep the house less sandy. 

The first question is, would I want to put a gasket between it an the existing siding, or strip down to the insulation, or down to the 2by interior walls?  Remember, FD construction from the frame out is is 2x tongue and groove, tyvek, 1" rigid foam, 2" rigid foam, strapping, 2x ship lap.

Any advice on construction, size, layout, details, inspiration, information sources, etc appreciated.  I just passed my PE in April, and after 394 hours of studying, my brain is still a little mushy.   d* I can probably stamp these plans since they will be small.

Not an expert on this but it seems to me that cutting back to the layer of 2x T&G that mounts to the studs would be quite workable. @x T&G would provide sufficient nailing grab for securing the new wall to the house.

Foundation was not mentioned for the additions but should be same as the main structure.


Clarification please.  Do the existing doors that you want "to bring my door to the outside face and then have the airlock room", open inwards or open outwards at present? And do you want to keep the present in or out swing? If inward swing presently do they open more than 90 degrees now; that is are the hinge pins past all the existing trim, etc on the inside? 

Present and desired drawing would make everything quite clear and leave no doubts as to present / future.



Hmmm... a newly minted PE. That's one way to avoid having to pay for an engineer.   ;D

Quote from: MountainDon on June 15, 2013, 04:01:25 PM


........................snip............................

Hmmm... a newly minted PE. That's one way to avoid having to pay for an engineer.   ;D

Me thinks I would rather hire one than be one.   :D

However congratulations on passing the test!   [cool]

No, no. If I had the chance to go back and make decisons again as to education and life I would want to be a PE. At the point I'm at now I'd rather enjoy the semi retirement, learn casually than go to school.

Definitely not the same foundation.  The home is poured concrete basement, this will likely be posts on concrete filled sonotubes. 

A gasket of some sort would be more preferable, going down to the T&G might require some modifications as it would go through the strapping that holds the insulation on and the siding attaches to.  Strapping is spiked into the modified timberframe posts on the house that are 38" OC so that would leave a little more than I'd like hanging unsupported.

Doors swing inward, I know I would lose some of the swing, but that's ok.  Either that or custom deeper doors ($$$).

No plans yet, still researching which way to go.

Ideally, I would strip the entire enclosed area down to the T&G and insulate the airlock room, but pretty sure that would require a res-check and we are right up against the limits now without adding windows....

yeah, I waited way to long too take the test, so now I am a "new" Civil PE with 15 years experience.

What I had in my mind is similar to this:  Picture #1
http://www.sunporch.com/PhotoGallery.aspx

The idea came from my grandparent's house.  They had a mobile home and a simple deck had an aluminum enclosure over it.  There were solid panels maybe 2 feet high and the rest were jalousie windows.   I remember that it went against the siding withe some sort of rubber and sticky gasket.  No insulation at all.

I did just come up with a thought though.  If I stripped down to T&G, in the enclosed area I could leave out the rigid insulation and go straight to strapping and shiplap and fill the walls behind with batt insulation since one wall is finished and not open stud, and the other is in a closet...wonder how I could get that one by the building inspector...

Here are some option sketches:

https://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff173/daddymem/addition-Model-2_zpsf9c4f59d.jpg (https://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff173/daddymem/addition-Model-2_zpsf9c4f59d.jpg)

This is the one I would prefer.  I would strip the siding down to the strapping only from floor level up.  I would cut out the foam insulation from floor level down around the door so the floor can butt up against the existing.  No insulation, no heat so hopefully no res-check needed.  I would flash the corners against the strapping, using filler strapping between the rows to fasten to.

Staked it out on the front of the house...too small.  Looks like 8x8 will work better, that way all 5 of us can get in out of the blizzard/nor'easter/hurricane/tropical storm while the front door is being unlocked.  Also benches to kick snowy/wet clothes off.  Anyone got a small room like this?  What size?  Insulated?  Your climate?

I like your idea a lot.  We have friends up here with a sort of similar idea.  Theirs however is a lot larger and does break the outside from the inside very effectively.   

In our new house design I included a small vestibule like 8' by 5'6" from the back porch to the house for just that reason.  Sort a mini mud room.   ;)  Only with us it is just the two of us and the two and a half outside dogs that live more inside than us when it gets cold.  Then the sometimes weekend grandkids and the people that drop in.  This being a ranch home, with us living here full time.  I expect the most of that traffic will be in and out the back door.  The shop and orchard are located off the rear of the proposed house.  If I had it to do over I think I would try a little harder to included one off the front door as well.  However to not obstruct the view I ruled no.  But then firewood is cheap up here and in the winter I don't think we will be over run by people.       

im not totally sure I understand what your trying to do BUT I can tell ya that on our firstday when we did a porch off an gable end we lag bolted a 2x10 to the exterior of the shiplap and went from there (in this case attached ridge beam for wood framed shed style roof).  I cannot remember off hand if we used screws or nails on the furring strips but regardless in your case nails so a long timber screw could reach into the real framing under the T+G ... .  they make those 6 or 8 inch deck screws that will really snug things up trust me.  GL 
 

Thanks Speedfunk.  Going around and around with the BI now.  He says we are in a wind debris damage zone and need 6x6 posts.  So we are rethinking about doing standard 2by framing.  The idea is to strip down to the strapping, then fill in the gaps between strapping with 1by.  Maybe a lag through it all to the interior 1by makes sense...I'll have to think on that.  I don't think we'll be up against a post where the walls meet.  But the rafter against the house could be screwed in through to some posts.  It might turn into a more open screen room if that changes things for building code.  Then we could plastic or plexiglass the window openings for winter.  Building codes are a PITA.

Looks like we are all set on the concept and what we need to do for a permit.  We need 6x6 posts.  Found a simpson strong tie that will cap the post and attach to the modified timberframe joists.  With the siding hanging down below joist level, we think PT only on the posts.  The part I am having trouble with is the modified timberframe. 

I found span tables for conventional stick built.  I found span tables for timber frame.  But not modified timberframe.  How do you figure out spans for three 2x4s nailed together?  I have 2' now because that's what fits our 8x8 footprint and is close to the 2'-8 13/16" used on our main house that has a second floor.  If I could lose a post that would save a bunch and give a feel of being more open.

These are my current drawings: 
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3C2Z23ga_pKVlRfM1dxSnZFSkU/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3C2Z23ga_pKUW00UGVMLXFzM2c/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3C2Z23ga_pKYzViZVUwSUNUNjA/edit?usp=sharing

TIA

Not entirely sure what member we're talking about, looks to be several built up members, if a post here is a recent discussion;
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=13230.0

I'll take a gander, thanks.  Posts and rafters.