I would like to build (or have built) a cabin for occasional recreational use, but I can no way afford to meet the building code provisions for a regular dwelling. I have heard that Maine has townships (with code) and plantations, with no code or relaxed code. But this is too far for me. I need a locale that would be a reasonable w/end commute from central NJ. Any ideas?
What aspects of building code requirements do you believe will escalate your costs to where you can not afford to build? There are some good reasons for many/most of the rules, although some places have much more onerous regs than others.
We looked at a map and outlined all the areas we would be willing to drive to when we began looking for property. My wife oind a few listings and we investigated. You know where you are and how far you are willing to drive. Do the same. Check with the jurisdictions within that area for their rules and requirements. Some areas like mine, have information on the process available online.
Hi offcode, welcome to the forum.
I would be curious as well specifically what parts of code you think you need to avoid. Those codes are in general good practices and procedures that the local areas have settled upon. While some may have some success building without them, they represent the best practices and collective knowledge of thousands of builders and structures.
I can think of many areas to skip on, and when you consider the ramifications of doing so I would want no part of any of them. Do you want a roof that will not sustain your snow load? Do you want an electrical system that will start a fire? Plumbing that dumps effluent into your front yard? Walls that bow out over time and let the ceiling sag? Foundation that leans?
I just cannot think of too many reasons not to build to code. I can see some situations where you understand the code and it just does not apply to your situation and you feel like maybe you should cheat it because you know best. While dubious, I at least understand that. But to start out with the mindset your stating seems odd to me.
Also, keep in mind you likely will not ever be able to insure such a place. And also consider that such a place may not ever be able to be sold - as in if you had to sell you might have to bulldoze it down first. Lastly, if you plan to finance the land, the leinholder (bank) may not allow you to do such a thing as it depreciates the value of their asset. And be clear, it belongs to the bank unless the last payment is made.
Not trying to sound negative, and certainly not trying to scare away newcomers to the forum, I just think you may not be considering the ramifications of such a plan.
Tell us what you mean by "offcode."
If you mean no septic and/or no well, then I feel your pain. I'm trying to avoid the $5000 septic that is code and will not have a well or water hook-up.
There are lots of things that wouldn't meet code- steep stairs, uninsulated buildings, unheated buildings, minimum room sizes. I grew up in old New England homes, and I find today's stairs inefficient. The stairs in my mother's have a greater rise than run, and that 83 y/o lady goes up and down them several times a day. They are nowhere near code. In SC, they follow IBC 2006 (soon to be 2009) and you must have minimum insulation, minimum room sizes, and heat capable of keeping the dwelling above 68 degrees. I would think the number of electrical outlets required for a home would be excessive in a cabin as well. For a rough cabin one step up from tent camping, I wouldn't have insulation or heat (or electricity, for that matter). If it's really just meant for that, I think you need to build a 'shed' or a 'barn'. If I build a barn in SC, and declare it is for 'agricultural use only', I don't even need a permit, much less inspections.
Thanks for your comments. I have nothing against the building code, per se. Years ago I read a book called "The Owner-Builder & The Code", which said the code was designed to protect buyers against crooked or incompetent builders, but is often an unwelcome burden on those wishing to build their own. I agree. But I'm not even looking for a dwelling, just a rustic cabin for an occasional getaway.
Being far from rich (and not very handy either) I simply cannot afford the investment of time and money to build (or buy) anything that would meet code as a dwelling.
Yeah, I know the "shed" dodge, I meditate in my backyard shed, which according to the local building inspector is illegal! But I don't want to buy land, build a cabin, and then have to worry about getting ratted out that I'm "living" in a substandard house.
QuoteBut I don't want to buy land, build a cabin, and then have to worry about getting ratted out that I'm "living" in a substandard house.
Then I suggest you build in a place where no one cares, like I did.
Quote from: offcode on October 14, 2009, 08:12:55 PM
Thanks for your comments. I have nothing against the building code, per se. Years ago I read a book called "The Owner-Builder & The Code", which said the code was designed to protect buyers against crooked or incompetent builders, but is often an unwelcome burden on those wishing to build their own. I agree. But I'm not even looking for a dwelling, just a rustic cabin for an occasional getaway.
Being far from rich (and not very handy either) I simply cannot afford the investment of time and money to build (or buy) anything that would meet code as a dwelling.
Yeah, I know the "shed" dodge, I meditate in my backyard shed, which according to the local building inspector is illegal! But I don't want to buy land, build a cabin, and then have to worry about getting ratted out that I'm "living" in a substandard house.
The Owner Builder and the Code - A good book by Ken Kern.
I proudly live in derelict housing and our DA mentioned that it was the owners choice if they wanted to live in that manner in a local court case. That is the way I see it.
The code is a minimum standard. Many people chose to build better than code. That does not really require an inspector other than the owner builder if he is in that situation. :)
offcode, I understand your desire to have a cabin on your own land and not have to dance to the tune of the local code compliance officials. But as poppy asked, what are some of the specifics that you feel will be financially onerous to deal with?
The real and maybe only way around the code question is to do the work to find a place close enough to you that has lax or no standards. Like Glenn and like ScottA. I have no idea if that is possible in the NJ area.
I will put in my two pennies to the discussion. I am originally from the central part of NJ. When I started buying my land and building I did from the eastern part of Pennsylvania. This is what I ran into. I couldn't find any place in NJ or NY that didn't have a building code. In NJ enforcement is high and there are almost no rural places left. The only place is the pine barrens and it is protected so you can't really build there anyway. Some parts of upstate NY aren't as vigilant with enforcement, it all depends on your neighbors. Pennsylvania has a "camp" provision in the code that allows you to be exempt from most building codes, but not septic. Also you have to file and affidavit that it will not be a primary address and a post office address can never be assigned to it. I also believe you must always maintain a separate address with the county. If you are having it built, I don't believe you would save any money buy not having it built to code, but you would lose money on the resale value if you didn't.
There are a lot of factors that go into the decision tree. Yes, building to code can add costs for the owner-builder, but they are only a percentage of the overall cost, not double or triple. I don't know what you define as a reasonable commute from central NJ, but land is not cheap anywhere within a 2 hour drive and would probably cost far more than the entire building for an owner builder. My definition of cheap would be under $2000 an acre for a 5 acre piece.
Offcode,
There are certain towns in NH that still have areas that have no zoning. The only caveat in most of those towns is, that if you build a home, you must have a state approved septic system. You can design and install the system yourself as long as it conforms to the state code, which is pretty basic. I own a 10 acre piece in Charlestown, NH that would be weekend commutable from most places in NJ - just depends on the type of ride you are willing to do.
Dear Offcode,
I can tell you that from my own experience in WI that conforming to code did not really add any expense to my cabin, the 10'X14" "Little House" by John Raabe. The building inspector reviewed the plans and asked for the following changes:
1) Door had to be 2 1/2 ' from corner.
2) Needed glass windows, not plexi-glass
3) Needed Tyvek wrap and a vapor barrier.
I found barn sash windows at Menard's for about $50 - custom made even. And the wrap and vapor barrier are not that expensive. Also, I got a copy of the UDC (Uniform Dwelling Code) and learned a lot reading through it. Nothing in its recommendations would cost much. Just good construction techniques. You want cheap but safe too!
Dave
My primary concern in building off code was that the house wouldn't fall in a kill me.
I used an engineered design for safety, but it was from a book. Code and inspection would not allow my building at any cost.
I have no problem with the code minimum standards or equivalent safe practices. I do view the codes and government officials on my property a violation of my privacy as an owner builder and citizen of the US. I have no problem with the safety aspect. I feel if I choose to live in a cardboard box with extension cords running through water on my private property that it is one of my rights.
I have no problem with anyone else building per the system if that is their choice. I build strictly to code and inspection compliance for my customers who choose to take out permits. So much so that I recently refused to call for an inspection because my customer did not want to comply with the engineers design. I knew it would likely slip past the inspector but that is not what I contracted for and could be a liability issue. I offered to quit rather than cut corners. The customer went to the engineer where he was told the same as I told him so now we are back per plan.
what is your budget?
How big do you want to build?
Can your building site be seen from the main road?
If I were you I would just build it if this is not going to be your permanent residence who cares just make sure your neighbors are the kind of people who arn't gonna mind what your doing. But I wouldnt screw yourself and build a shitty structure you wont ever be able to make legal. Alot of the code is just to make your life easier so everthing is the right heights and all your building products work as a cohesive system.
I know how you feel I would have pulled permits but at the time I jsut wanted to get started and to get a septic field dug was just out of reach.
OK, thank you all again for trying to set me straight. Several of you have asked me what in the code troubles me, but it sounds like you are mostly talking about a proper 21st cent. house, however small & simple. And you are saying that if my plumbing, electricity, etc. aren't up to code I asking for problems, pennywise pound foolish, the law aside. True! But I cannot afford building, purchase or maintenance costs on a proper house of any size, and I don't want one. I don't want plumbing, electric, central heating.
My budget is $20k-30k max, including land, perhaps just for tenting as I get the building $ together. My suburban backyard shed (which cost about $3K from Home depot, maybe wd be less from a local builder) is vinyl-sided, 2 functional windows, 20-yr roof... as an example of what I mean. I would make do with a little wood or propane stove; well, spring or even carry in water; carry out non-compostable trash; composting outhouse- or septic tank only if absolutely req'd. I have a house, I don't need another.
Basically a shed not a house, only need to be structurally sound & not saleable. I want to find a bit of LAND where I can camp, and gradually increase the comfort level, without worrying about code. And I can't afford enough land to hide out from the inspectors- I want to be legal. The question I am asking is, is it possible to buy a bit of land & camp on it without being a criminal?
There are hundreds (thousands?) of jurisdictions within a reasonable distance of my central NJ location. I have started to write to a few of those- but- isn't there some search mode that can make the looking easier?
Quote from: offcode on October 15, 2009, 09:07:42 PM
...... is it possible to buy a bit of land & camp on it without being a criminal?
Depends. Depends on how those local officials write their laws. For example, camping in a tent or RV is permitted on private land in the mountains where we are, unless you are in one of the little subdivisions with loads of their own rules. Technically, erecting a shed and
sleeping in it or heaven forbid,
living in it is not permitted even if the shed is under the size where no permits are needed (for a shed that's really a shed.). That's the official line. However there are some out of compliance "camps", like ours. Mostly they are hidden away. If you can't hide it may be hard to skirt the rules. Depends on the enforcement. The more people around the more likely the septic rules will be enforced and maybe with good cause.
To me it sounds like to have to do a good deal of research on what the different rules are. Maybe some of our members rom that area of the east will have some ideas of how to quicken the search.
I would just try to find a piece of land that is out of the way and meets your needs if possible. Porta-pottys while not real pleasant can cover you on camping trips. G/L
A safe shed, if allowed can easily be built from the Little House Plans.
It's too bad that it took 3 days and 13 responses before you told us what you were driving at. :(
But we are here to help and it sounds to me like what you are looking for is a piece of land were there are no restrictions, no covenants, no zoning.
My first piece of property was in a township with zoning, like minimun dwelling size of 1400 sq. ft., and restrictions on outbuildings, and limits on living in temporary housing while construction was going on. Plus it was a private development and there were additional covenants restricting what type of animals could be on the property etc. I sold that land.
My current property is in a township with no zoning, no restrictions, no covenants, with direct access off a township road. There would be absolutely no problem doing what you what to do on my land.
I would start the search focused on local rules. I would think that if you were in an area similar to mine that state and county rules may not be of concern.
Sometimes communication of ideas on the internet is not always straightforward. More discussion can clarify that. :)
A bit off topic, but code related - built to code gives no guarantee of quality - only minimum requirements. The fairly new Mariposa Building and Safety as well as government center was flooded out and failed to stop rainwater from this weeks storm.
http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=7065157
My point relevant to this thread- a good owner builder job can be better than this engineered inspected failure - and it's the building and safety department, no less. Hundreds of thousands to low millions on this one I assume.
On the topic of building and not meeting code. The inspector for Ferry county where I'm building has a news paper clipping from a couple year back where a man was killed when the roof of his wood shed collapsed on top of him. It had snowed over night and gave way while he was retrieving some wood.
Part of the problem you are facing is that central NJ is in the center of the most densely populated region of the country. The suburban sprawl runs from CT above NY to MD. Every one from the cities is looking to get a little piece of a 1 acre lot for themselves and that pushes up prices and codes. A little help on what a "reasonable distance" is to you would give us a lot of direction for recommendations. My idea from your descriptions is you are looking from the New Brunswick to Freehold area. I believe Maine, NH, and WV would be the closest states that have localities without building codes. My understanding is that NY, NJ, and PA have standards set by the state and interpreted by the counties and localities.
The camp provisions of the Pennsylvania code would seam closest to what you are asking, but you would still need to conform to the septic code. Also I would recommend building a heating source to code (proper venting), fires and CO poisoning seem to be perennial killers in PA camps.
Quote from: Squirl on October 16, 2009, 10:13:12 AM
Also I would recommend building a heating source to code (proper venting), fires and CO poisoning seem to be perennial killers in PA camps.
Excellent point. And in my book that rules out the use of any non-vented heaters inside a cabin.
http://www.paconstructioncodesacademy.org/pdfs/Rec_Cabin_Exclusion_Form.pdf
FYI
[cool] Too bad it can't be used elsewhere. I wonder how strict #1 and 2 are interpreted? June thru August our recreational use is more or less continuous, 10 - 14 days at a time.
just buy an old car trailer, and build your cabin on it. Build it at home, or on the land. If you don't have a truck that will pull it, rent a Uhaul.
call it a shed , since that is what it is. Get it "inspected" if need be. THEN add any options you might want in the future (those stairs). A storage shed I doubt most municipalities will care. If In view of neighbors try to make it look as nice as possible. Neighbors are the key. Things have a way of blending in over time to peoples eye. So just build it and go from there :) It helps if it's not on a permenant foundation also.
I got code called on me for my 8x8 cabin. He was looking for 2 things. Running water and a source of heat FYI. If you do add woodstove, with freedom comes responsiblity so just make it safe for your family.
Peace
jeff
offcode, Come to West Virginia......there is a code but it isn't enforced in most places as there aren't even building inspectors.....Building Codes actually decrease the quality of building IMHO.....remember it is the "minimum" requirement......good builders had to lower their quality to compete with the other builder who builds minimum code.....Code Officials always have seemingly good reasons for them to be employed but here in WV being that the code is not enforced......Officials would suggest that most homes have fallen down without their "expert" enforcement....Poopoo on that....First Building Code went something like this: "He who builds a home and should that home fall down and injure the owner shall be slain"......Didn't need too many inspectors then!!!!!
offcode,
Williamstown, Vermont. No codes and only 5.5 to 6 hours, depending on traffic, from Monroe Township, NJ. There are other towns in Vermont with no codes as well.
Quote from: Tim Bullock on January 07, 2010, 10:46:28 AM
offcode, Come to West Virginia......there is a code but it isn't enforced in most places as there aren't even building inspectors.....Building Codes actually decrease the quality of building IMHO.....remember it is the "minimum" requirement......good builders had to lower their quality to compete with the other builder who builds minimum code.....Code Officials always have seemingly good reasons for them to be employed but here in WV being that the code is not enforced......Officials would suggest that most homes have fallen down without their "expert" enforcement....Poopoo on that....First Building Code went something like this: "He who builds a home and should that home fall down and injure the owner shall be slain"......Didn't need too many inspectors then!!!!!
But it is coming my friend. For the most part an owner/builder takes pride in his workmanship providing that they have a general knowledge in building. The problem arises when he has no knowledge of the principles and it is not his own. For these we have to thank the code & everything else that is associated with it.
Redoverfarm, I agree that the code will come to WV one day but likely not in my lifetime. I still disagree with building codes and their enforcement. Case in point: We built a home in Lake Tahoe just under 3000 square feet.......It was on a mountain and there are fault lines nearby....The engineering/blueprints cost $ 75,000.00 and the concrete for the footers was beyond anyone's comprehension. Next door to this fully engineered home stood a home that looked like it had been built in the 50's......The footings were 4" X 4" posts on rocks with lots of diagonal bracing....It is still standing and looked level......Have you ever heard of anyone being injured from their home falling in on them in WV? I have only been here 3 1/2 years and haven't heard a thing in this regard.
Tim,
I worked on a house that was built in the early eighteen hundreds that was around six inches wider on the second floor than the first, and the building leaned north over eight inches. Well, the north wall leaned eight inches and the south wall leaned around six inches. The point is, it didn't collapse. This leads me to believe there would be no catastrophic collapse causing grievous injury or death, rather the occupants would have ample time to see the house was shifting and becoming unsafe so they could leave, or correct the problem.
When you read building codes it is pretty clear they were put in place to protect some petty bureaucrat's job, for if you have codes you must have a "code enforcement officer."
I would think that all states would have codes; you're just lucky if you're in an area that doesn't/can't enforce them. For instance, all of SC is subject to IBC 2006, but some counties have no inspection department. We're in Greenville County, which does have inspection, but no plans review, so I can build whatever I want without formal drawings, as long as it meets code. Basically, they're going to come out and make sure my 2X4's are spaced correctly, etc. The only sticky part would be if I wanted something less main-stream, like timber framing. Then I would have to have engineered drawings. That's one of the little details that is steering me towards very conventional stick framing for the most part.
Quote from: pagancelt on January 08, 2010, 01:21:06 PM
Tim,
I worked on a house that was built in the early eighteen hundreds that was around six inches wider on the second floor than the first, and the building leaned north over eight inches. Well, the north wall leaned eight inches and the south wall leaned around six inches. The point is, it didn't collapse. This leads me to believe there would be no catastrophic collapse causing grievous injury or death, rather the occupants would have ample time to see the house was shifting and becoming unsafe so they could leave, or correct the problem.
When you read building codes it is pretty clear they were put in place to protect some petty bureaucrat's job, for if you have codes you must have a "code enforcement officer."
The first building codes were all addressing fire. They came about in the Boston area, and they were having huge problems with fire there at that time. While I agree that building codes are hampering, I also agree that they are rooted in good. It is just unfortunate that they end up being a way for people to flex their egos, and for the city to fill its pocketbook. We lived in a 200 year old Colonial, with dry laid foundation (full basement) walls, hand hewn (non graded) timberframe, hand split clapboards and shingles, ceilings that were only about 7', walls out of plumb, floors out of level, etc. It was awesome, and has withstood the test of time. I know what you are saying PC. ;)
I have worked with codes all over the USA.....it seems a lot of the code enforcement officers have "fetishes" and do not really know the code completely.....Egress is "huge" in some areas.....other places it is railing heights on the second floor (in Colorado, according to the local GC, they have changed this height 3 times in 20 years)......do you getter a better house IF the stairs conform but the roof won't support the snow load?
Lack of roof ventilation seems to be the biggest misunderstood item of all time....I have seen two roofs ripped off two of my homes in the past 5 years as the GC's just didn't understand ventilation....BOTH of these homes were inspected with supposedly strict inspectors...How does this happen? There is a "demolition inspector" here (nothing new is getting built) and he just loves to condemn old serviceable buildings......all of the politicos along with "demo guy" seem to hate all old buildings and just adore vinyl....what is up with that? Beautiful 3 story brick building on the main street....torn down......replaced with an empty lot with garbage....
Nice.......