Odd Electrical Problem

[Cyric30]

Ok my current house was build in say the 70s so some electrical annomilys occur. But one Breakers worth off electrical outlets will randomly stop working without flipping a breaker in the box, it seems to make no diffrence what is running at the time and is random in occurence and in a fairly short period of time it will come back on and run till it does it all over again.....Need mor info please let me know. but its got me a bit bumfuzzled any help you could give me will be greatly appritiated.

[peter nap]

It's absolutely impossible to diagnose an intermittent problem over the internet. My guess is that you have a bad breaker. If your brave enough, take the faceplate off and leave it off until it happens again. When it does, measure the voltage between the neutral buss and the load side of the breaker. No voltage = bad breaker.

If it were me...and I'm famous for doing risky things....I'd play it safe and replace the breaker and see if it happens again. A bad breaker is nothing to play games with.

[MountainDon]

Aluminum or copper wiring?? My bet is you have Al and that's the origin of the problem.   :-/

Or if you like experimenting, switch that breaker with another and see if the problem transfers to the other circuit.

[Cyric30]

Mt. Don
Copper AFAIK i think i'll see about getting a breaker for it Tomarrow and see what happens when i put it in

there is quite a bit of stuff runing on this breaker but i was under the impression if it was to much it would trip the breaker am i wrong.?

[MountainDon]

Copper's good.

Breakers are supposed to pop, completely disconnect the circuit. Maybe like Peter suggested it is a bad breaker. They're cheap enough to swap for a new one. If you're up to changing one, before you go get a new one, you could make certain the connections in the box are tight. Be absolutely sure to disconnect the mains before going inside and still be very careful inside the panel. If you have a panel like mine the mains disconnect breaker is in the box and will have one side live at all times. If in doubt call a pro.

Get the same size breaker, no bigger. (shouldn't have to say that, but just to be safe...)

[peter nap]

I've commented on my dislike for breakers before. They are supposed to pop on demand but unless it is a GFI, it is a slower cut out, especially if it's only slightly overloaded.

I can't tell you how many times I've pulled outlets on 15 amp lines that someone was running a 20 amp AC on, and found the hot wire insulation burned off for several inches.

In an overload situation like that the breaker sometimes builds up carbon on the blades and will cause the problem you describe. The big issue with that is when the breaker becomes stuck closed and a fire results.

You don't have those problems with a fuse unless you stick a penny behind a blown one.

[Cyric30]

Thank you all for your Help, I hope to get a breaker tomarrow and get this fixed soon its driving use nuts

[MountainDon]

Please let us know what happens.  

[peter nap]

[highlight]Please let us know what happens.   Smiley[/highlight]

Yes, please do. There are other things that can cause the problem (Like the push in connections on outlets...another of my peeves) but that's where I would start.

[PEG688]

   What brand is your panel?

  If it's Zinsco you should have it replaced ASAP .  

  Here's a link :http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/Zinsco.htm

  They , their breakers make fine welders ,    

[MountainDon]

Shocking news, Paul.

I love this excerpt from the website "If you are having an emergency right now such as seeing smoke or fire you should get occupants out of the building and call the fire department. "  

...and they're UL approved. Hmmm.

[glenn kangiser]

We had some at a rental house that had the zinsco problem -- bad aluminum connections where the breaker clips on. :-/

[PA-Builder]

I would begin checking all of the receptacles on that circuit.  If they are backstabbed (as said earlier), that is very likely the cause since one loose connection can affect all receptacles downstream.  I realize you probably don't know what receptacles are on that circuit, but if you do, and if any do work when you are having the problem, that rules out the breaker, and points to a bad connection in a receptacle.

[peter nap]

You may be right. I based my original answer on his saying ALL the outlets went out. I made an assumption I shouldn't have. I assumed he both knew where all of them were and that he had checked them all.

[glenn kangiser]

Good point about the backstabbed receptacles, switches - etc., PA-Builder.  I hate them so bad I don't even consider using them even if they are on the fixture I am using.  I have had many problems with them.

[Cyric30]

Well So far the new breaker is holding and the light aint out yet so only time will tell but i figure if it goes a day or 2 with out dying where good

[PA-Builder]

Were the receptacles NOT working just prior to installing the new breaker ?  

Were there any loose screws / wires at the breaker when you replaced it ?

Don't toss the old breaker just yet.

[Cyric30]

Were the receptacles NOT working just prior to installing the new breaker ?  

Were there any loose screws / wires at the breaker when you replaced it ?

Don't toss the old breaker just yet.

Hay Well it didnt fix the problem it still cuts out randmoly...but after a bit of tinkering i think it might be load related i an My PC and a few other things off another breaker and we havent had an outage since then....does that help any.?

PA Builder Yes the recepticles where working just prior to the replacment  no no loose screw (exept the ones in my head) or wires no burnt or otherwis suspect wires in the box also....

[glenn-k]

You checked to see that none of the receptacles were backstabbed also  as PA mentioned?-- ( little holes in the back of a plug that wires just poke into to create a connection).

They very commonly cause this type of problem.

I would check while all are working with a tester or lamp.  Try to find everything on that circuit and make note of it.  Then load it up until it quits -- look for which box is the last one working or if none work.  Check the last one for a bad connection or the first dead one.

[peg_688]

 If the break does not trip and power goes off you have a wire type problem , in either a "J" box in the attic or crawlspace , J boxes should be accessible  , BUT YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT SOME DIY or for pay electrician may have done at some time in the past.

#1 : Turn off all electrical power and check the wires at the breaker and the neutral on the buss bar that goes to that breaker.  

#2: Now turn on the electrical power and only the breaker in question , you need to find the first breaker on that circuit, pull it out , carefully then wiggle it , to see if you can get power to go off , use a lamp for a test light , DO NOT USE A METER. Meter's take no load and will indicate full power or full continuity  , BUT IF A LOAD IS PLACED ON THE CIRCUIT IT MAY NOT WORK , so use a test light / plug in lamp , or the TV any thing that draws a load.

Some where you have a loose connection on that circuit, could be the back stabs folks have mentioned  could be a big group of wires in a wire nut and the important one the feed is not making full contact.

I was a aviation electrician  in the USN we had many loose wire / connection issues / gripes we called them , a meter is worst than worthless in this type of gripe as it will fool you into thinking the connections are OK when they are not.

 So good luck sailor , opps in mean cyric30

I crack me up sometimes    

[glenn-k]

You're just too hilarious sometimes PEG--- and nearly always right too.  

:-?


PS -- I already told Sassy what you were going to reply but - go ahead -- put down your first thoughts.

[peg_688]

You're just too hilarious sometimes PEG--- and nearly always right too.  

:-?


PS -- I already told Sassy what you were going to reply but - go ahead -- put down your first thoughts.

Ya I know   maybe I should just shut the heck up eh, NOT !

I guess it depends , is that what your looking for  :-/
 

[glenn-k]

No -- I thought you may have a problem with the word, "Nearly".

None of us want you to shut up -- You are our fountain of knowledge. 8-)

[peg_688]

#1:  No -- I thought you may have a problem with the word, "Nearly".

#2: None of us want you to shut up -- You are our fountain of knowledge. 8-)

#1: Oh,  I'm wrong sometimes , and it always cost me money when I am   But about the test light Vs. meter I'm right, no doubt in my military mind on that one. We chased a bad dump valve for a week , drippin fuel on landing , made the Air Boss mad , drippin JP on his deck. We finally found a partly crushed wire under the #3 turtle back, going to that valve back in the tail. We had read power at the valve ten times , we finally pulled all 3 turtle backs and test light checked every disconnect from the CB panel in the cock house  going aft , till we found that wire between two  disconnects way back aft. Lots of man hours wasted by that meter

Fool me once shame on me , fool me twice , on the same type gripe , and I'd be a dummy! Hey that wasn't right was it ?? :-?

This is that same type gripe , a loose connection / broken back stab / disconnect , where in the house it is , that's the problem , he has to isolate that circuit and track it down !  

#2:  I'm not sure I'm a " fountain" maybe a lil hose , but a fountain , nah

[glenn-k]

I totally agree with you on the light/load on that circuit.  I've seen the same thing with meters.

Nothing much worse than trying to find an intermittent.  I almost said to plug in lots of stuff and look for smoke, but didn't want to alarm anybody.

I wasn't a pro like you in the military, but did take 2 years electronics with straight  A's -- I reserved A's only for classes I liked.