Decoding NYS Building Codes

[Adam Roby]

Hi All,

I am going to see a piece of property in upper New York State (Chateaugay) tomorrow morning.  I had emails a ton of questions to the local code enforcer and he only gave me a 1 liner reply saying "There are no zoning laws in the Town, however all construction must meet NYS Building Codes".  I am therefore going through the building code but I think I need to be a lawyer to understand what they are talking about.

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of the NYS building codes?  Specifically, I asked him if I could camp, use a camper trailer, and/or build a small cabin and what the restrictions were for each.  He did not address this so I assume that means I am allowed to camp (multiple tents on the site), I assume I can park a trailer there (at least until I build).  I specifically wanted to know if I needed to be connected to electric, septic, etc if I build myself.  Some places do not let you use a chemical toilet, I think most won't let you do a home made septic system. 

I believe someone on another thread mentioned that a building under 200 sqft is considered a shed and therefore does not require permits?  Does anyone know if this applies to New York state?

Wish me luck... I am all butterflies.  It is a 5 acre lot with about 230' bordering the Chateaugay river.  (Apparently some excellent rainbow trout fishing there).  Anything I should be looking out for?

[MountainDon]

Squirl is our resident 'expert' on NYS bldg code. Have a look at this site. It has the IRC specific as used by NYS  NYS IRC

Note that things like whether or not you can park an RV while building does not fall under any building code. That is planning and zoning on some level; county, municipality, whatever.

Requirements for septic, composting toilet and grey water come under the state sanitation department most likely; counties may have rules on that too as may towns, cities, municipalities.

Some places will install electric with no other requirements. We (NM) could have been grid connected to a pole just inside the priperty line or anywheres within with no oher requirements other than an address.

Hopefully squirl will drop by and add anything specific that he has learned.  G?L.



And the 200 sq ft rule (less in some places, possibly more in some) is normally specifically directed at auxiliary or accessory structures, not habitable buildings. This can vary with jurisdiction as can enforcement. Where I am located the application for a building permit specifies the limits and habitable buildings are not included in the exemption.

[Adam Roby]

Well... I saw the land.   

There are 6 lots in total, 4 of which are in my budget.  Lots 1 and 2 and the cheapest @ $8000 for 5A each, but the land looks water logged.





Lots 3 and 4 are at $10000 for 5A.  These look much dryer (probably 5' higher in elevation) and there are currently 2 horses roaming on the land (presumably some neighbor's horses there to graze and keep the grass mowed)







The first 200-300 feet back is pretty much clear cut.  Then there is thick bush, thorns and raspberry bushes.  At one point there is a steep drop and the last 200 feet up to the river is swamp (luckily I was wearing rubber boots but I kept sinking 4-6 inches and losing a boot).



The river itself is pretty nice.





So, now the decision.  Basically, the land can't be sold as waterfront because the last acre in back is inaccessible.  I went with my buddy and his father who has a few tractors and bulldozers.  He said the ground is too soft to bring any heavy equipment in there.  I would need to see if the sharp drop is all rock or soil that can be pushed down the hill and used to fill some of the swamp.  If not, it would have to be done by hand, but his theory is that if you can dig trenches all the way back to the river, it will give a place for all that water to pool and drain to the river, thereby drying off the land.  If not, that part is completely useless.

I may offer based solely on the land that I can access (consider it as "dry land"), but then it would only be worth 1/2 of what they are asking. 

I knew it had to be too good to be true.

[rick91351]

Adam a couple observations

I doubt from what I see much of that is do able for a conventional septic system.  If any of that 'dry ground' will pass a perk test then still you have set backs from live streams, rivers and ponds.  Also a septic system has to be set back so many feet from a property line and so many feet from a well.  A conventional system of course is the most convenient and most likely the most cost effective barring a path to a pit toilet.  (Out house)  With all that water doubt that would be do able.    

Then also with all the standing water I doubt it would be very enjoyable in mosquito season.  Be very careful when filling swamps, slews and 'waste ground'.  If it is listed on a Federal Wet Lands list you might just loose everything and have to restore it back to how you found it.     

[MushCreek]

How high above the river are the dry lots? I'd be very careful, or you could end up on the evening news as your house floats away. Water can come up a surprising amount, and surprisingly fast. We looked at a number of lots here in SC with creeks, only to find that most or all of the lot fell within a flood plain- no thanks. It seems like we have a 'storm of the century' about ever other year these days.

[Don_P]

I agree with being careful around that "useless" bottom land. We're realizing that type of ground is very critical to recharge our deep water and what we do to it is being increasingly regulated. Each time we drain or channel it to a flowing creek we lose that water which would otherwise percolate and filter down to recharge the aquifer as runoff to a flowing creek. The creek is increasingly scoured and experiences flash floods and erosion while our wells go dry. For us the Department of Environmental Quality, DEQ, oversees any disturbances to these areas, I'm sure you have a similar agency. Before making an offer I would contact them and see what is possible.

[new land owner]

Adam

   Here is a link to the NYS building code

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ny/st/index.htm

In Franklin county where I am building you need to have a designed certified septic system before you can get a building permit, Framing Inspection, Insulation Inspection, Electrical inspection, and of course final inspection before you can get a certificate for occupancy. Framing and insulation were done by the local inspector. Septic and electrical are completed by a licensed inspector.

[Adam Roby]

Here is an idea of the land.



The dry spots have to be some 100' above the river.  The drawing does not do it justice, but it does show how the last 150-200 are probably not usable because of the steep stop and wet soil.  Up above it is definitely dry enough to build, although I would need to have it inspected for septic.  The mosquitoes were insane, I had at least 20-30 on each arm at any given time.  I am pretty sure this lot is out of the running.

How enjoyable is the land when completely dry?  What I mean is, the river / stream / lake makes it much more interesting, but it is completely useless without the water?

And the hunt continues...

[hpinson]

Be very cautious about building or modifying land in or near wetland areas in New York State.  Wetland protection regulation is extensive, and sometimes enforced fanatically. There will be some sort of offset from any year-round wet area (stream, swamp, lake, puddle) to where you can build. This applies to structures, septic, and even roads.  There are lots of grey areas, and if there is any question you may have to apply to your local conservation commission or state environment department for any variances, which may, or more likely, may not be granted. The variance permitting process can be onerous in its requirements.   Ever see a construction site with lots of hay bales delineating boundaries? Those are marking wetland offsets before construction begins.

Is the building site unquestionably dry year round and 200 feet or so from any wetland? 

Do you have to cross any wetlands to get to your building site?

If there are wetlands, big red flag and proceed cautiously. Sometimes local conservation commissions will visit a site and advise you.

It is lovely country.  The mosquitos are insane this time of year and black and deer flies too in April and May.  Wetlands will bring more of those too. Late summer, fall and winter are just wonderful.

P.S. As I understanding trenching or draining wetlands in ANY way is a BIG no-no.

[Adam Roby]

Definitely a lot of red flags to consider here... I will have to call around and see what I can find out for free... and if I have to call in some experts at my own expense then I will speak with the agent to see what they have to say about my concerns and if they would consider less money due to the complications.  Worse case I move on...  or dramatically scale back my plans, get a small trailer and use a chemical toilet (just to have something now while I wait for a better lot to come along).  I dunno how I feel about that though... many pluses and minuses for it.

Thanks for all the input!

[MountainDon]

Just because land is offered for sale does not mean it is buildable. Or maybe sometimes building is possible if the wallet/checkbook is large enough. It is not uncommon to see a lot and wonder how anythinmg could be done with it. There's a lot next to us in that category. I doubt anyone will ever buy it or do anything with it.

[hpinson]

On the other hand-- there may be wetlands, but that does not preclude you from building on dry areas, which may be quite sufficient.  Wetlands attract wildlife which may a real plus. It seems lovely property.

[Adam Roby]

On the other hand-- there may be wetlands, but that does not preclude you from building on dry areas, which may be quite sufficient.  Wetlands attract wildlife which may a real plus. It seems lovely property.

The dry part does look quite dry... and if I could clear some trees to get a view of the water and then build something like this, they we might be in business! 

[Squirl]

Most NY building codes come into play in habitable structures over 140 square feet.  It is up to the local county/municipality.
New Land Owner posted the code, this is the state enforcement agency. Somewhere in there it has the 140 square foot requirement.
http://www.dos.ny.gov/DCEA/
I don't know how much data your local county has to publish.

Septic is governed by the NYS department of health code. 
http://www.health.ny.gov/regulations/nycrr/title_10/part_75/appendix_75-a.htm
It is usually enforced by the building inspector, but a select few counties have hired engineers to do inspections.
In all but a few areas, NY state requires and certified engineer to design, inspect, and and certify the septic is as built.
In my land contract, I had a clause inserted by my lawyer, "the property shall be certified for a conventional gravity fed septic drainfield" as a condition of the sale.  I paid for testing before the sale ($500 to later be credited to the engineered design and inspection).  Be careful with the language in the contract. In the eyes of an engineer almost no property fails septic, but the cost for the alternative system is more than most people want to pay (20-25K).  Typically the test is done by hiring an engineer to do a perk test and a deep hole (4 ft) soil examination.
As new land owner stated, without a passing septic test, you can't get a permit to build a residence. 

Some people have gotten building permits to build sheds and outbuildings, but then it leaves you up to the mercy of any neighbor that may have a beef with you to turn you in if you stay in it as a cabin.  Some places won't issue a permit for them, without a residence.  When I broke ground almost every neighbor called to see if I passed everything for my permit.

It looks like you are going to have a heck of a time placing septic on these.  Cheap land is cheap for a reason.

Beyond the septic, the codes themselves aren't that complicated.  Basic visual framing books will be in accordance with most of the code, and should be very similar to what you have in Canada. 

The energy code should be almost identical and can be found in the first link I posted.  Some jurisdictions have "seasonal" classifications, which allows you skip the energy code requirements.

Check where the electric lines are too.  Generally the first 500 ft of line is free.  After that it can get expensive quickly.  I opted for solar. (Cheap land was cheap for a reason.)

Most jurisdictions require engineered stamped plans on buildings over 1500 square feet and on anything unconventional or outside of the code.  A lot of this should all be outlined in the permit application itself.

Just ask if you have any specific questions about any of the provisions.  There is even a section of the form were people have posted guides to specific sections.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?board=14.0

[Adam Roby]

I am going to head back for a second look at the land with someone that knows the exact boundaries, then see if I should make an offer.

I want to call the code enforcer tomorrow to get as much info as possible before heading down and offering anything. 
Is there a list of specific questions I need to ask him?
I am pretty new at this, so am not sure what I need to ask.

*Edit:  I decided to potentially go for this as a starter plot and simply park a trailer on it.  The trailer has everything designed into it so there is no need for septic or anything else.  I want to draw water from the river, store it in tanks and use battery/solar or simply a small gas motor or generator for generic stuff.  Most everything I want to run off the propane.  This would allow me the chance to enjoy the land now, and not have to wait another 10 years for a similar lot to show up.  That is, if the land is not already sold and the seller accepts my offer.  I am also planning on calling the other agencies to see what information I can get considering the septic and wetlands.  From all of the maps I have found online, this land is not part of the protected wetlands.  Also, there is a document from 2006 explaining a "hunting / fishing" cabin I can build providing I do not have indoor plumbing.  (http://apa.ny.gov/Forms/SIR_Hunting_and_Fishing_Cabin.pdf)

[new land owner]

Adam

     I do not think the land you are looking at is in the APA.  That is a good thing but I am not sure if the rule you refer to would apply.


Tom

[hpinson]

http://apa.ny.gov/Forms/SIR_Hunting_and_Fishing_Cabin.pdf

There is so much history behind that document. I'm really happy to see that such an allowance for hunting and fishing cabins still exists within the park. That is very much within the vision and heritage of the Adirondack Park. Thanks for posting it.  I have a great love for the region, and was fortunate to have hiked the Northville-Lake Placid Trail many years ago.

Lots 3&4 look awful nice. Is the land you are considering in the park?

What questions to ask?

You might want to pick up a copy of this book before asking questions or making an offer:

http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Buying-Your-Place-Country/dp/0793117852

Some of your questions may become conditions on the offer.  If possible, don't be in a big hurry. There is plenty of good affordable land in upstate New York.

Not all of what follows will be relevant to your situation. I've starred the ones I think critical.

* Clear title in the form of a Warranty Deed.

* Current legal survey defining boundary. Don't take anyone's word for it.

* Septic system soil viability, and any special condition building requirements.

* Water source (well, spring). Surface water sources (stream/ pond) may not be allowable or advisable.

* Water quality.

* Wetlands that preclude building.

* Unrestricted access to property (do you have to cross someone else's land to get to your property and can they restrict access?)

* Access to power? Solar exposure?

* Cell phone/ land line/ internet access?

* Road maintenance. Public road or private road? Who pays for and does the road maintenance work?

* Neighbors (good neighbors are pretty darn important).

* Crime. Are you in a high, moderate, low burglary area-- call local PD to find out. Talk to the Chief or Sheriff.

Covenants and restrictions that may affect how you use the property.  Examples are restrictions on RV dwelling, size and style of structure allowable, time limits on a build. etc.

Existing liens that may restrict how you use the property?

Part of a subdivision? Are you OK with that and all the BS that often goes with it?

Home Owner Association (viability, any existing legal actions or fights). Can be a good or bad thing.

Water/ Mineral (oil and gas)/ Timber Rights?

Access to shopping/ schools/ churches/ emergency medical care/ and jobs?

There are more!

[Adam Roby]

Thanks for all the info... I ordered the book along with the "working alone" that someone posted.

This parcel is gone!  I called up the agent and there was already 2 other people in a bidding war for the property.  I knew it would go fast... at least I learned a lot and have a better idea what to look for when the next lot pops up.

[hpinson]

"Working Alone" rocks.    I'm sorry about the land being sold, but know there will be others as good or better!

[Adam Roby]

Well, it has been a while since the last land I went to see, but I have another one in my sites.

This one is a 6.67 acre lot in Constable NY.  It is wide with the street and the entire length wraps around a small river.  Looks great on paper, hopefully will go see in not this weekend but the next.  I am trying my darndest to get in touch with the local code enforcement officer but the phone just rings, and the email address given to me by the real estate agent bounces back. 

This lot is a bit more expensive than the last one... but I am hoping the wife with lighten up on me.    The seller is asking $18,000 but it has been on the market for 570 something days.  I think I can get it for $15,000 if it meets my needs.

My wife, out of the blue, tells me she wants to go up north to see a cabin in the woods for sale.  She has been doing all the calculations all week and even planned the visit with the agent for tomorrow at noon.  This is the same woman that was mad I was even considering land for $5000 and it now going to see a cabin for $30,000.  I don't get it...  so if we like it I may be more in the renovation rather than building phase... and if I don't I will try to sell her on this lot... once I go visit it.  I will follow up with some pictures tomorrow of the cabin... and next week of the land.

[Adam Roby]

Here is a satellite view of the property, at least as near as I can figure the boundaries are.


And this is a Google terrain view, I enhanced the image so that I can more clearly see the land.  It seems to be a sharp drop right before the river (the yellow X is where the neighbor build their house (flat) and the blue X is where I figured I could also do the same (seems flat from this view) and then there appears to be a more gradual slope on the left towards the water.  There are supposed to be trout in that river, and the agent says there are more deer in this area than people.

[Adam Roby]

Wow, what a dump that place was.  Seems 3 brothers bought some land and built 3 cabins at some point, then later sold.  So each lot has some 30,000 sqft of land however all 3 cabin are build within spitting distance of each other, and the rest of the land is near impossible to walk on let alone build on (would need some heavy duty machinery, this is in the mountains and the ground very soft with old dead debris  and there are boulders from 3 - 8 feet in diameter scattered everywhere).  The cabin itself is sitting on blocks... just loose piles here and there, which are sitting on patio stone, which have since cracked and are folding into the ground.  Whatever plumbing may have existed has been removed because the owner owns two of the 3 cabins and uses this one as a sauna.  The septic is nothing more than an open pit outside with a makeshift leanto type plywood thingy covering it, you can look in and see water with stuff floating.  The only sink is missing all the taps...  the toilet was removed...  and he said there is a well but he removed the pump to use somewhere else, so you have to take his word for it.  Not a good sign...  the 3rd cabin was redone and is owned by someone that lives there year round.  From the balcony, you can stretch your arm out and touch a giant orange school bus - that owner is a school bus driver.  No privacy at all.

While we were there some other car came up.  They spoke to my wife, backed up and left.  I thought it was for directions or something but they also drove the hour and 20 to get there only to turn around without even getting out of the car. 

So my attention turns back to the land.  I need to prove to my wife that it is worth it to buy land and to either build or to put a pre-built cabin at least as a temporary measure.  She is afraid about the water in and water out aspect.  I need to do some major calculations... but if the perfect land can be had for $15,000, I need to show that another $10k can get us setup with at least something small but usable.

Researching the web on septic systems... the average is like $3k - $5k to install (if you have good drainage etc.).  If there are problems you can go up to the $10k range right there.  If I can sell her on a grey water system, with a chemical or other type of toilet that should make things easier to fit into the budget.  With the river below, water in should mostly be a matter of a pump and hose, storage tank... and there there's power.  Batteries and a solar panel as a start, just for the basics.  Gonna be a tough sell. 

[hpinson]

Don't underestimate the time/ effort it takes to clean up old messes.  Our property was similar, and I have spent 3 years getting it back into shape, and am not yet done.  On the other hand, the land is so special-- time spent there, camping mostly, is a joy.  There is much usable land for building, however the site of the derelict structures is best -- so it is serious work.

Because of the mess, the purchase price was quite low. I guess it balances out though.  If I had the cash to hire out cleanup, it would have gone much faster. 

[Adam Roby]

Oh I totally agree... fixing something that was improperly built can be harder and more expensive than just starting fresh.

I am actually willing to consider something like this, just as a temporary cabin to get started with.
http://www.adirondackstoragebarns.com/camp-buildings/adk-cabin

You can get a 12x20 for $4500 - bit steep but they deliver... add a chem toilet and some walls and you're ready to go.

[Building]

I realize the top part of this thread is old but as someone who bought a wetland property and went through the process with my state Enviromental Department of getting everything cleared up, let me echo as loudly as possible what hpinson said regarding regulations.

This is no joke. Google 'Mike and Chantell Sackett'.

My property was a 'dry wetlands property', that is to say essentially no standing water, mostly plant indicators but towards the rear, it got a bit mucky. The back half of the property- which is probably the 'prettiest' part- is essentially unbuildable barring tens of thousands of dollars in mitigation credits. If someone didn't know that wetlands regulations were in force, they would have no idea of that.

Pictures such as the ones seen above, with significant standing water, some of those properties I wouldn't even consider without first having an informal delineation performed. What may appear to be 'the high part' of the property that you assume is buildable very well may still be considered wetlands per hydrologic indicators. The 'wetlands' may run up well past the obviously wet part, leaving you with tricky setback issues, etc.

In short, unless you understand what you're dealing with in wetlands, don't get involved with them.
As far as just going cowboy and bringing in the buddy with the bulldozer and changing stuff around, bear in mind that the National Wetlands Inventory is pretty well established and it interplays with GIS systems. Whenever the ariel images for the GIS system are updated, the system will automatically notify the administrator of parcel modification. Seriously, the days of 'just build a cabin and keep your mouth shut' are really coming to an end due to all this.

Anyway, point being, don't think for a second that whoever is sitting in the office in charge of the National Wetlands Inventory doesn't have access to the same tools that local guys have when they nail people putting up illegal sheds as far as identifying people illegally modifying wetlands. Whether its a good law or a bad one is immaterial to the fact that it is a law and it is very much enforced.

On the most recent property, it sounds like a code enforcement time bomb.

I get the feeling you're drawn to seemingly 'underpriced' properties.