I'm trying to figure the proper sequence here... Do I need felt under the facia boards? Yes? The facia needs to be installed before the metal roof edging goes on? Yes? Does the metal roof edging go on top of or under the felt? I'm thinking it goes on top...???
Drip edge first.
Then ice & water shield if used (over drip edge)
Then roofing felt.
Then shingles.
I think there's one type of drip edge that's better than the rest.... forget the term/name for it ???
I think PEG mentioned it? ???
You want to make the water stay out of everything, hence, Dons sequence.
I think Peg called it Z style I think. It was on an earlier post but I don't remember where. Also there is no need IMO to put felt behind the facia board that would re-direct the water behind it and cause problems with rot. Did you find any "ice guard"? If you did then this goes on over the drip edge and then start your felt with a 4-6" overlap at the top of the ice guard. If you are going to be some time before roofing with shingles you might consider "button nails" instead of roofing or staples to attach the felt. It will not take much wind to tear off.
The plastic buttons will deteriorate in about a year. Don't ask me how I know. ::)
Style D flashing first , Ice and water shield (if it's being used , most folks here only use it on low pitched roofs , any where ice damming is probable it's a great idea to use at least the bottom 36" , one width of paper / I & W shield , then a Normal 2" ish over lap with the 30 lbs felt.
As I was taught , "Think like rain", always , always , always , lead it out to day light.
All flashing all felt should lead the water out / on top of the roofing , never bury the lower edge under the shingles . Felt the same way always lap it so IF water gets past the shingles it , the water , will be lead out to day light.
Glenn , you a little slow in shingling , felt is not roofing , right??
You saved the day again, PEG.
We need a superhero name for you. :)
Great responses guys. Thanks. No delay on the shingle install, they'll go on as quick as I get this decking done. Should have paper on it by this weekend and shingles next week. So no need to install the facia boards first? I can just slip them under the edging later, right? And no felt paper behind the facia? Oh and no ice guard to be had around here. It would be special order.
Peg you hammered me again. But hey I was in the ball park. It was a letter in the alphabet. I did mention it was in a post you had recently discussed. Moral of the story don't believe everything you hear and check it out yourself. d*
Quote from: ScottA on March 11, 2008, 10:15:43 PM
Great responses guys. Thanks. No delay on the shingle install, they'll go on as quick as I get this decking done. Should have paper on it by this weekend and shingles next week. So no need to install the facia boards first? I can just slip them under the edging later, right? And no felt paper behind the facia?
It's way easier to install the facia and rake / barge boards first , in fact I like to lap my roof sheathing onto the top edge of tha facia so it doesn't get all wigglie/ warped etc between the rafters / truss's.
Every body does something a little different but I like it that way , more better , looks nice longer etc. And it's the "right way" to do it .
As I say at work , 'It's my way or the highway " they get to decide c*
Quote from: Redoverfarm on March 11, 2008, 10:17:02 PM
Peg you hammered me again. But hey I was in the ball park. It was a letter in the alphabet. I did mention it was in a post you had recently discussed. Moral of the story don't believe everything you hear and check it out yourself. d*
I saw your post after I posted mine , I was typing mine when you "beat me to it" I was adding to Mtn D's post IIRC he mentioned a "better type".
I saw you gave me credit , :) VERY few people use Style D , Home despot carries it here in my town but it's a very light weight gauge metal they carry.
If I walk into my regular lumber yard they don't carry it , so I have to think ahead so they can have it brought onto the island from the mainland / thier supplier.
Ok that's what I figured. I'll put the facia on before the roofing. Thanks all!
I was talking to roofer yesterday who told me the metal edging goes on top of the felt at the rake and under at the eaves. Makes sense to me.
Quote from: ScottA on March 20, 2008, 08:18:17 AM
I was talking to roofer yesterday who told me the metal edging goes on top of the felt at the rake and under at the eaves. Makes sense to me.
And IF water gets under your shingles and on top of the felt where will the water go?
It will go on top of either your sheathing and /or behind your facia , which depend on your soffits will put the water running into the enclosed area of the soffit.
The felt / ice and water shield should be on top of the metal , BUT not run in such a way as it will show / stick past the exposed edge of the metal.
Your shingle should stick past that style D flashing by 1/2" to max 1".
Think like rain , lead the rain to day light , ALWAYS !
Or not , your dime. You'll just spend more of them , dimes , repairing your roof.
Could someone post a picture of how that should look?
Let's try this and see if PEG approves.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/flashing.jpg)
I was talking about sloped roof , 4 in 12 and up . Your basics are right IF it was sloped. ???
Different details , flashing / roofing etc would apply If it where a flat roof as shown.
So what are we talking about ??? Maybe I'm confused d*
PEG, I believe the roof in question is a sloped roof. Glenn's graphic worked best if you angled your screen towards ya'. ;D
If I understand this question and answer correctly, there are two edges, the eve and the rake, and it is normal to treat them differently. The eve edge on the sloped roof would be handles as previously described, with the weather resistive barrier over the metal drip edge.
The rake edge I understand is done differently, the metal drip edge acting as a cap over the weather resistive barrier to keep wind driven rain from getting under the weather resistive barrier.
I've also been told that leaving a slight gap between the sheathing edge and the drip strip is a good idea. That's what I've been told by the guys who did my roof. [noidea'
Could be right Mtn.D , IF metal goes up what I call the rakes , the sloped edge of the roof it can go under the paper . But what happens in the long run is folks get confused and end up running ALL the metal over the felt and then at the soffits / eaves IF water get past the shingles , which it should NOT , it ends up going into the building at that soffit point.
I guess it's to hard to "Think like rain" :(
Add to that wind blown rain and you have more , "none simple " answers to what would seem to be a simple question d*
Having the style D go up the rakes is IMO a good idea , it stiffens that protruding shingle edge preventing the very often seen , "droopy edge shingle" look , which in turn becomes the rotten wood look as once the shingle droops it promotes the capillary action water has of wicking water up hill , which is yet another issue eh :(
There is no simple solution to this issue , or so it would seem.
The style D flashing goes a long way to prevent most of them , but few folks want to spend the few more dollars to add it to the project.
I too looked at the sketch and was going to say "Glenn a flat roof?" but I think he was hitting the general application showing the overhangs. Maybe he wasn't able to show it as a pitched roof. I guess your imagination has to come into play or commen sense? ;D
Quote from: Redoverfarm on March 20, 2008, 02:22:37 PM
I too looked at the sketch and was going to say "Glenn a flat roof?" but I think he was hitting the general application showing the overhangs. Maybe he wasn't able to show it as a pitched roof. I guess your imagination has to come into play or commen sense? ;D
There in lies the problem with "rough " sketches , 1/2 way details d* Details must be shown to scale and well be "true" to whats really happening or they become just other confusion points.
I'm sure John R. our Architect would agree, more harm than good comes from "rough details" when it really matters.
That's why I mentioned the lack of slope on Glenn's "detail". ;)
Peg I haven't mastered the attachment details of the computer or the resources to gain them. So I probably go a little over board on explanation. Which too gets very confusing. I am like alot of other people. I can do the job but have a hard time telling others how I did it.
That's OK Peg, I'll just tilt my head and immagine that Glenn had it right. :)
Here's a photo out of Wagner's Modern Carpentry , my high school shop class book , call of 1974 :o
Although they have a defferent flashing shown , the details are right.
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Mar202008.jpg)
Glenn or Mtn .D you may want to snag that image as it may get deleted at some point in the future when my P Bucket account fills up again. ;)
I was just pondering making a drawing... and now I snagged a copy of that.
Quote from: MountainDon on March 20, 2008, 04:57:33 PM
I was just pondering making a drawing... and now I snagged a copy of that.
Ponder no longer my friend :) We can count on you , all Glenn can think of / his mind goes to / is
the gutter when FLASHING is brought up ::)
And Glenn , I didn't say "A" gutter, as in rain gutter , I was thinking the side of the road , analogy / example. [toilet] rofl I like this new one as well , heh
OK so by looking at Peg's book the roofer told me right. I tried to hire him but he wouldn't work for just beer.
Quote from: ScottA on March 20, 2008, 08:08:17 PM
OK so by looking at Peg's book the roofer told me right. I tried to hire him but he wouldn't work for just beer.
Well he's not much of a roofer then!
Thats a joke yanno :)
Imagine you took your skill saw and cut through the roof at 90 degrees, PEG -- I just drew a cut that could be applied to any roof pitch. You guys didn't say you wanted any fancy 3D perspective drawing. ::)
You didn't expect a real good drawing for free did you? hmm
Quote from: glenn kangiser on March 20, 2008, 08:48:07 PM
You didn't expect a real good drawing for free did you? hmm
Yes ! ;D
Glenn? Your drawing made the top of the list. :) Now where did I put that dang list? ???
Well -- it illustrated something. hmm
Quote from: glenn kangiser on March 20, 2008, 11:58:23 PM
Well -- it illustrated something. hmm
Ya it did , you can't use flat roofs details , to show sloped roof details d*
I understood the cut view part , but still the roof part needs slope , thats like a torch down detail , except the metal would be on top and torched / heated to seal at the eave / edge.
Good try Glenn your heart was in the right place. I think ???
Not tryin to hijack this thread, but Im in the process of installing a metal roof. I've got the eave trim, which goes on before the panels. Then after the panels, Ive got the rake trim that goes on. My question is, should I put down a drip edge on the rake over the underlayment, and under the panels, and then the rake trim also, or just use the rake trim?
Quote from: lockman on March 21, 2008, 12:16:10 AM
Not tryin to hijack this thread, but Im in the process of installing a metal roof. I've got the eave trim, which goes on before the panels. Then after the panels, Ive got the rake trim that goes on. My question is, should I put down a drip edge on the rake over the underlayment, and under the panels, and then the rake trim also, or just use the rake trim?
No harm in your post that I see.
Most metal roof rake trim is a 90 degree set up and generally quite wide , you'd have issues unless you used a flat 90 degree metal and it would be buried back under that larger rake trim so without seeing your metal and guessing like I did I'd say , No.
Thanks, I didnt think it would be neccesary, but just thought I'd check. I've got the underlayment and the eave trim up. Hopefully it'll stay dry this weekend so I can start puttin the panels on.
Just the metal roofing rake, IMO. We had a new metal panel roof installed a couple years ago. The wide metal roofing rake edge is all that's needed; at least that's what my hired roofing company guys did.
The only possible reason I could see for installing a standard drip edge on the rake before doing the metal roof would be if you were expecting long delays in getting the job completed. Then it might save some potential wind damage to the underlayment. :-\
Not used in a steel building so the steel roof is the same -- no drip edge because there is nothing to drip- the rake (Gable) trim covers the area. Condensation should be taken care of by the felt and there shouldn't be much of that with sheathing and felt below.
After 3 1/2 days of roofing I can safely say that the best advice is to hire a roofer. Oh well, too late now. Back to it.
Thank you, Scott. You've reaffirmed my decision in '05 to hire out the re-roofing of our home in the 'burbs.
But I'm pretty sure I'll be doing the cabin myself. :-\
Scott what would a contractor charge to do your roof? Take that amount and when you get the last shingle on divide your time into that amount. That will tell you what you are worth. ;D ;D
You sure know how to make a guy feel worthless. d* On the otherhand I can always imagine the roofer trying to fix a leak under his house in January. :)
Scott I am sure with all the guidance ;D you received at CP combined with your attention to detail that it was probably done better than any contractor would have done. Besides it is the learning process that has it's value.