Concrete Wall Pix - info - tips

glenn-k · January 14, 2007, 06:27:20 PM

We have talked quite a bit about concrete walls and crawlspace foundations here lately. Many have added their tips and information in their posts. Since this seems to be of interest here I thought I would take some pictures of forming on one of my worksites.

I was just doing some of the structural steel. The tradesman building the forms said that it was important to anchor the walls well to the ground or footing as the heavy concrete would lift them up. I mentioned that I drove spikes into rock to anchor my forms in the basement I'm working on and he said that was common for them sometimes too. I drive 60d spikes into 1/4 inch holes rotohammered into the rock if necessary. A 1/4 inch hole will also take 3 16d nails and hold firmly in many situations. the above forms are braced every 8 feet and anchored every 4.

Steel is placed and tied per plan. Verticals extend from the previously poured footing.

This one shows the steel where forms have not been put in yet.

Here is a method of forming where a ramp will be placed later - a slot is left for the rebar.

Another one showing a corner.

Here is a method of keying slabs together or forming a decorative groove in the wall. They also nail wood shapes on to 45 the corners. etc.

This shows a dobie put in to space the steel from the form properly - it is left in without problem as the concrete flows around it.

Bracing to a hill with turnbuckles for adjustment.

Snap-ties are used on most big jobs. You can use all thread with a PVC sleeve slit down the side for removal as an optional method. Knock it out and fill the hole after forms are removed.

Snap-ties have to be ordered in specific lengths and have proper hardware to work properly.

They space the forms and hold them apart but the holes still have to be filled afterward.

Frames are built over footings for columns or light poles to support the reinforcing steel and finish the surface area to.
.

The rest is formed as necessary to make the concrete the shape they want.

If you have pictures or information you want to add to this topic please feel free to jump right in here.

JRR · January 14, 2007, 09:58:50 PM

Looks like that forming contractor is a pro!

I used to specify a number of metal-channel concrete inserts in concrete walls and pits for general anchorage purposes. The original company in this product area was "Unistrut". Their "claim to fame" is a framework system that is centered around a square metal tube ... with one side open ... the ears are folded inward forming a "channel". Pre-threaded spring-loaded nuts are provided that can be inserted in the square channel, and then slid to any location along the length of the channel. This provides the attachment means.

It takes a bit of reading to understand "Unistrut" if you've never seen the system. If you search around under the 1 5/8" product descriptions you will find "concrete inserts".

There's a lot a stuff on their website:
http://www.unistrut.com/

n74tg · January 15, 2007, 08:39:15 AM

Wow, what a job. Now, I'm REALLY glad I went with dry stack block walls.

Nice set of pics and comments.

jerseydave · January 15, 2007, 01:45:38 PM

Thanks Glenn,

I come here to escape daily life and what do you do......... post pictures of the very things I am forced to stare at and work with 60 hours a week.

At least you didn't include pix of the Mixer running over your tools and washing out in the street!

glenn-k · January 16, 2007, 01:46:27 AM

PS: Dave - I actually thought about taking a picture of the concrete truck driver washing his chute into his plastic bucket then vacuuming it up and posting it here with my above rant. I thought it was so ridiculous.

I will try to restrict most of my concrete stuff to this heading so I don't always ruin your day. :-/

PPS: Dave.... any tips?

Okie_Bob · January 16, 2007, 06:42:17 AM

Glenn, you are kidding, right?

?? Oh, I forgot, you are in the People's Republic of California...nuff said.
Okie Bob
PS: just had to add....that is about the most stupid thing I've heard of yet.

desdawg · January 16, 2007, 08:08:21 AM

QuoteJersey Dave - the professional concrete truck driver -- best friend of the guy running the chute.

Sorry about that Dave -- Speaking of washing out in the street, we have a bunch of idiots making laws out here like you can't wash out on the ground -- they probably have investments in the concrete washout collection box service business, lobbyist making all kinds of pay offs etc. The poor driver has to collect his chute wash out water in a bucket - suck it up into an onboard vacuum cleaner tank and take it with him. Don't the law making idiots realize that he just dumped 25000 acres of concrete foundations and parking lot directly on the ground exactly where the washout would have went anyway? Like the truck washout was some kind of hazard but the 25000 acres of concrete was benign.

Hello -- anybody home --- would somebody please get these money grubbing idiots out of office and put their cousins in jail for bribing a politician? There has to be a cleaner way to make a living. Yeah --- let's all pretend they are really doing something important, besides making a new business for their cousin and increasing the cost of building for the little guy and the big guy who then charges it to the little guy. :-/

That is why California is known as the land of the fruits and the nuts. Just be glad you only got the nuts. The worst part about it is bureaucrats in other states use CA as a role model. Are you running vegetable oil on your chainsaw bar? Does your firewood smell like it was prepped at McDonalds? Have you taken your Bobcat in for emissions testing? It seems a lot safer on this side of the state line.

bartholomew · January 16, 2007, 03:20:27 PM

Concrete wash will kill fish and aquatic plants (because portland cement is very alkaline, if I remember the chemistry). So I suspect that in this case at least, the idiots and nuts in power are just heeding the advice of fisheries biologists.

jerseydave · January 16, 2007, 08:17:11 PM

We are at that stage here now........ no uncontained wash water on the ground...... ANYWHERE!

And since NJ is first in line behing the ass of CA I guess the pump thing will be here next (I've heard it might be coming).

The EPA almost shut our plant down last month due to run-off......... now it's shut down and they are doing a gazillion dollar restoration. Luckily the same thing happened to another of our plants last year and it was already redone, there fore I'm not completely out of a job. I'm working there, but more than half of our list (the bottom guys) aren't so lucky........ Thanks EPA, sent 20 guys to the unemployment line!

I've always said the same thing about the irony.......... I can pull up and dump out 45,000 lbs of crete anywhere the contractor points to. Try to use 4.5 gallons of water to clean the chutes and I'm a criminal.

I'm done

glenn-k · January 16, 2007, 11:30:45 PM

I took pictures of their bucket and hose today. I guess they raise the chute and gravity it to the containment vessel. I didn't bring the pix in the motel room to post though.

I hear there is some self appointed agency that comes out and writes tickets and if the driver refuses to sign the ticket they cuff him and haul him into jail. Fines have run from $27,000.00 to $3,000,000.00 in various locations around Sacramento according to the driver.

glenn-k · January 17, 2007, 01:16:12 AM

QuoteConcrete wash will kill fish and aquatic plants (because portland cement is very alkaline, if I remember the chemistry). So I suspect that in this case at least, the idiots and nuts in power are just heeding the advice of fisheries biologists.

Sorry Bart - I hit the wrong button up there - meant to quote you - not modify you.

I guess gigantic projects could be major abusers, but many have seen a money making opportunity here - as with almost anything.

glenn-k · January 17, 2007, 09:43:12 AM

I can hardly believe this stuff. These "people" have no sense of value - apparently greed has taken over for their agency - whatever it is.

The driver said it is a $100 fine if you drive over one of their straw wattles, which many times are put out only to demonstrate compliance - not because they are doing anything. Common sense tells you that the runoff is going in the opposite direction but that doesn't matter because these people don't have any and would be indignant if you mentioned it. They are truly drunk on their own power. :-/

bartholomew · January 17, 2007, 02:57:20 PM

QuoteDamn

27,000 is the minimum fine....Well I would go for the cuff and stuff route...I do not have the money for the fine...I would do the 30 days or whatever...

I think I would just go for the collect the water and dispose of it properly route.

The fines may seem excessive but they are still small relative to the damage that can be done. Even small fish kills are usually measured in terms of hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost fish catch over the next few years it takes for the fishery to recover.

Even a small spill of a few gallons will be carried downstream killing fish and eggs all along the way. You might assume that the wash water will be quickly diluted once it's in a stream. That's not necessarily true but even if it is, highly corrosive liquids are still lethal to fish even when mixed with a hundred times the volume of water. So all you get is greater volume and therefore more and more fish killed as the spill travels downstream.

The straw barriers are in place to keep sediment out of the storm sewers. On busy construction sites, a large amount of dirt is tracked into the street by trucks leaving, and those trucks could be headed either uphill or downhill. Maybe in rare cases due to the configuration of the site and street access you can be sure that trucks will only head downhill. But if a truck runs over a barrier, then it's definitely needed there.

MountainDon · January 18, 2007, 01:48:49 AM

QuotePS: Dave - I actually thought about taking a picture of the concrete truck driver washing his chute into his plastic bucket then vacuuming it up and posting it here with my above rant. I thought it was so ridiculous.

I wouldn't have believed those photos if you'df posted them.... then again I would. Just happy that we're still back in the "dark ages" here in NM where the concrete trucks wash out on the builders lots.

glenn-k · January 18, 2007, 03:39:10 AM

Thanks, Bart -- it helps a bit when you see the other side.

Still seems hard to believe that they should not ban all concrete poured onto the ground for any reason.

:-/

glenn-k · January 18, 2007, 12:56:46 PM

Here are the truck pix and the system--

and here are a few more concrete method pix.

Existing concrete is often protected with plastic to prevent unnecessary cleanup. It is poured over then cut off.

Note the center screed board with the temporary wire on a stake support to maintain elevation.

Curves can be made with multiple stakes - tops wired if double sided. They used the back of the bendy fiberboard siding as bender board. I don't know the proper name. :-/

glenn-k · January 19, 2007, 11:09:53 AM

When I built my pond at the other house, the water was much too toxic for fish until I neutralized it - with acid if I remember right. This was not from the wash water but from the concrete itself.

All of the concrete out there has the same problem as the wash water. Possibly the industry will voluntarily ban all concrete in its entirety to prevent this traumatizing destruction of natural resources and your migraines, desdawg. :-?

Okie_Bob · January 19, 2007, 11:23:34 AM

I hate to be argumentative but, (well maybe I don't) I live on a 33,000 acre lake here in Tx and it is virtually encircled by retaining walls. A lot (not all) are made with concrete or have concrete walkways on top of the metal retaining walls. And I'm talking about hundreds if not thousands of them all around the lake. Some are even Sakrete bags just laid side by side across the front of the owners property.
So, my question is, why have we had no fish kills? This lake is one of the most prolific fisheries anywhere. I'm continually amazed how so many fishermen take limit after limit of crappie, sand bass, hybrid bass, catfish day aftert day after day, year after year after year.
If concrete is causing any problem for the fish, someone forgot to tell the fish!

And, if the wash water from concrete trucks is so harmful, tell me why the area around the wash is the most fertil for growing grass on my whold property?
This all sounds like more bad 'science' to me and now I'm getting that same migrane that Desdawy had awhile ago!
Okie Bob and sure glad I don't have to live in LaLaLand or the People's Republic of CA.

glenn-k · January 19, 2007, 01:07:54 PM

Okie BoB, I'm afraid you may have too much common sense to understand this discussion. :-/

But please keep trying.

The way I see it, the entire earth is a balance of acids and alkalies, and when one gets out of balance the other gets it back in balance. While I don't want to stand in a pool of either one, they both head back toward neutrality as soon as they can get there. That is the way a concrete slab becomes more neutral.

From what I understand about this, Texas has some mighty alkaline soils in their limestone areas - most of it. I'm afraid after controlling this alkaline washout water, the next thing we must do is do is outlaw Texas.

Interesting info on soils - acids - alkalies

://www.esf.edu/pubprog/brochure/soilph/soilph.htm

bartholomew · January 19, 2007, 04:03:48 PM

Cured concrete is not a problem...the portland cement undergoes a chemical reaction as it cures. But fresh uncured concrete is very caustic...

http://www.cement.org/basics/concretebasics_working.asp

QuoteProlonged contact between fresh concrete and skin surfaces, eyes, and clothing may result in burns that are quite severe, including third-degree burns. If irritation persists consult a physician. For deep burns or large affected skin areas, seek medical attention immediately.

Wet concrete in forms is not a problem either. Most of the water will be used up in the curing process or will evaporate out. Even concrete wash can be dumped on the ground if the ground is reasonably permeable and not too close to a stream or lake. The fine sediment gets filtered out and the concrete will cure before it ever reaches a stream. You can still do exposed aggregate driveways. In that case the washed-off concrete is partially cured so not as dangerous. The wash water should still be diverted away from the street but in most places it's ok to let it percolate into the ground.

I'm generally in favor of less regulation and reduced government interference in our lives. But if concrete suppliers and contractors just refuse to believe in the dangers of wash water then hefty fines may be the only thing that keeps the stuff out of streams and lakes.

Some FAQs and background info here...
http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/water_quality/fish_and_pollution/conc_myth_real_e.htm
http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/water_quality/fish_and_pollution/conc_char_e.htm

Concrete Wall Pix - info - tips

glenn-k

JRR

desdawg

n74tg

jerseydave

glenn-k

glenn-k

Okie_Bob

desdawg

glenn-k

bartholomew

jerseydave

glenn-k

glenn-k

benevolance

glenn-k

bartholomew

MountainDon

glenn-k

glenn-k

desdawg

glenn-k

Okie_Bob

glenn-k

bartholomew