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Copied with permission - In my opinion the author has this dead on... Opinion from the other side of the world

Link to site with comments etc. per permission agreement.. http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/30-08-2010/114806-american_nightmare-0/





The American Nightmare

30.08.2010 15:09


By Hans Vogel

There once was the "American Dream." To be sure, first this dream was American in the true sense of the word, pertaining to the entire continent from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego. Before long, however, the adjective "American" was hijacked and applied with appalling single-mindedness to the US exclusively. This operation has been so successful that today to most people in the world, "American" is synonymous with "US".

Yet one ought to remember that once the American Dream could be chased not only in the US, but in Canada, Brazil, Cuba, Venezuela Argentina and Uruguay as well. Since the mid-1800s the latter, like the US, have also attracted millions upon millions of Europeans in search of a better, freer and more comfortable life. Until quite recently, many of them were indeed rewarded for their efforts. Their labor has forever transformed the face of the New World.

The golden years for the "American Dream" (referring to the US exclusively) began after the end of World War II and lasted for about a half century. Its definitive end came when the New York Twin Towers collapsed. In hindsight, the signs of decay in the US were visible before 9/11, but since then the American Dream is being shattered in ever smaller pieces, with ever diminishing chances of being put together again.

True to the cherished European myths about the New World, everything in the Americas seems beyond the scale of what Europeans are accustomed to: bigger portions on your plate, a faster-paced life, and bigger fortunes when things go well. But when they go sour, the demise also seems faster and its scale bigger.

Curiously enough, US administrations seem intent on accelerating the destruction of the American Dream and the very infrastructure that made it possible in the first place. It now seems eons ago when US presidents only got themselves into wars they could win, or at least wars from which they and their friends could reap handsome profits at minimal cost. For instance during World War II and Korea, the US tried to leave the fighting and dying to others.

It took the Vietnam War for the US to realize that the time of easy war fighting were over. But instead of drawing the right conclusions, the US has rushed headlong into expensive, unwinnable colonial wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Meanwhile, due to the rapacious policies of a ruthless ruling class devoid of any sense of responsibility whatsoever, the US middle class is being chased out of its homes, jobs and colleges. And if that weren't enough, it is being robbed of its savings through cleverly masked fraudulent schemes such as Obamacare.

Today, 40 million out of 300 million people in the US are on the dole and many millions more are set to join their ranks. Most of the national wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small percentage of the population. They include banksters pocketing bonuses and salaries running into the hundreds of millions of dollars.

At the same time, the conversion of the US into a single giant prison, has been proceeding apace. Whereas back in the 19th century, Russia was sometimes characterized as the prison of peoples, today the US is truly a prison of individuals. Nowhere in the world are there more people in jail than in the US. Nowhere in the world are so many people under some form of penal surveillance, such as the millions on parole.

The government tries to control every movement by every citizen, subjecting them to humiliating and degrading searches at airports, public buildings and sports events. Just as Tocqueville, the perceptive French observer predicted in the 1830s, the US has now been turned into a panopticum, the perfect prison envisioned by Jeremy Bentham in the late 18th century. New legislation under way is set to eliminate the remaining aspects of freedom. Laws to make downloading illegal (ACTA), to outlaw the growing of vegetables without a government permit, to make jokes or to call people names illegal. The list is long and defies belief.

One could say the US ruling class is trying to dehumanize life. No doubt the ruling class believes it can continue living a comfortable life while making it miserable for their less fortunate countrymen. Indeed they might, for a while. But eventually the Frankenstein monster they are creating will turn against them.

Now that the US has become one giant prison, its streets patrolled by swaggering, overweight and brutal policemen, it is attempting to impose its dreary way of life (if that is what it can still be called) on the rest of the world.

However, if the world was once willing to adopt the American Dream and accept a change in life style to make it more like life in the US, it is to be doubted the world is willing to be turned into a US style prison, a kind of globalized Guantanamo. The American Dream was once sold to the world by the friendly cigarette smoking, gum chewing, coke-drinking GI. Today's salesmen of the American Nightmare are less friendly. They are often mean, crack smoking, coke-sniffing desperadoes, killing Third-World civilians.

There once was a time when the US produced good salesmen. They found a warm welcome because they sold quality goods made in the US. Today the good salesmen have been replaced by shifty-eyed marketeers with nothing to sell, because the once flourishing US industry has been offshored to China and elsewhere.

The only products the US has on offer these days are misery, death, threats and endless doses of violence. Certainly the world—and the US—deserve a better fate. It might actually be a good idea for us in the rest of the world to encourage US citizens to re-establish control over their own lives, to summon their leaders to stop being selfish, to punish their irresponsible ruling class. The whole world would be a better place if they did!

Hans Vogel

This guy is right on a few things and screwed up on most, oh brother

In WW2 we left the fighting & dying to others??  Iwo Jima, battle of the bulge, Normandy, guadel canal, etc etc we were dying to defend countries in other parts of the world, not just the US

As far as having too many folks in prison, I guess we should cut off a thiefs hand and let him go and that would be better?? OK with me. or maybe we should just say dont do that.

many Americans have become freeloaders and slackers and have been spoiled and now want something for nothing. easy to pin it on the big bad banksters. They have the money someone else wants & wont work for, so they must be evil. what a crock

The government is taking over all our liberty, he is right about that and I do think we are doomed. But it is mostly our own fault, and like rome we will fiddle with our products made in china while the country burns

socialism never was the answer, self sufficiency is the answer and we have forgotton how that works.

America may suck but they suck worse, I would not move anywhere else, we will be brought down by our own freeloading thugs

I think he may be referring to our entering the war late.  http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081210184036AAb1xOM

We import tons of drugs and sell them in the cities to support our covert ops via our CIA as reported on many times - - Iran contra - Ollie North - etc- ... not stopped - maybe hidden better  - substance abuse creates prisoners -we are currently guarding poppy fields in Afghanistan and other countries so our elite can profit, not only from sales for clandestine operations but personally as well as from war machine sales.  See  Iran Contra - Ollie North, The Last Circle, the Octopus, etc.

Enablement by government programs creates more slackers and support for programs for mare taxation and free stuff.

Our system has created support for purchasing from China as our elite profit and we become a third world country.  Wall street mentality.

I was getting worried there would be no conspiracy theory posts for the aniversery of 9/11. What a relief to see this, after all this is the aniversery of the biggest conspiracy theory of them all. You know the one...19 devout muslims, after a long night of partys and strippers hijacked 4 airliners using box knives and plastic forks, managed to somehow disable the entire US air defense system and destroy the constitution in a matter of hours. That's the grandaddy conspiracy of them all.  ;)

I have to say that the article is  right on target as I see it.

Good post Glenn

quote
As far as having too many folks in prison, I guess we should cut off a thiefs (sic) hand and let him go and that would be better?? OK with me. or maybe we should just say dont (sic) do that.
unquote

Some stats from the BOP

Notice 1 person in 150 out of every man woman and child  in the US is a resident of the crossbar hotel system

over half are in for 'drug offenses'

also note that banking and insurance, counterfeit and embezzlement aren't even one half of 1 percent (I am sure this should be higher)




Last Updated: Saturday, 24 July 2010


  Inmate Population back to top  
Total population: 211,014
Total sentenced population: 192,615
Inmates in BOP facilities: 172,839
Inmates in privately-managed secure facilities1: 24,001
Inmates in other contract facilities2: 14,174


  Types of Offenses back to top  

Drug Offenses: 100,627 (51.3 %)
Weapons, Explosives, Arson: 29,740 (15.2 %)
Immigration: 22,327 (11.4 %)
Robbery: 8,631 (4.4 %)
Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses: 6,868 (3.5 %)
Extortion, Fraud, Bribery: 9,997 (5.1 %)
Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses: 5,450 (2.8 %)
Miscellaneous: 1,862 (0.9 %)
Sex Offenses: 8,430 (4.3 %)
Banking and Insurance, Counterfeit, Embezzlement: 840 (0.4 %)
Courts or Corrections: 661 (0.3 %)
Continuing Criminal Enterprise: 532 (0.3 %)
National Security: 94 (0.0 %)

 

Umm - Scott, I was waiting for someone else to start the story of the Federal Government conspiracy on 9/11 as I have a lot of good stuff to add but I thought I would share the fun this year..

I could not believe the line of crap congoleeza (sp?) was spreading earlier - like her and Big Dick Cheney were scared and running out of air  sitting down there in the bunker below the White House  directing (air ) traffic (controllers to sit back and shut up).

Holy Cow!! This guy sure hit the nail on the head! Why have the American People not yet realized what a bunch of evil crooks run both our Government and our Banking/Economy?? Or maybe they're just starting to figure it out with movements like the "Tea Party"? I personally don't think there is much hope for our country....I think we've just went too far down the toilet drain to pop back out again....but I do hope I'm wrong. After all....even at this late date....name me a better country on this planet than the USA!

Well I always like to stir the conspiracy theory pot but it usually seems like a thread killer.

I think mourn over this date even more than average folk, not only for the direct victims of this disaster, but for all the other victims as well- you, me and the rest of the world.
I was counting on the angry youth to raise a holy stink but apparently they were all hooked into their PS3 along with cheap beer and drugs.

QuoteInsert Quote
Umm - Scott, I was waiting for someone else to start the story of the Federal Government conspiracy on 9/11 as I have a lot of good stuff to add but I thought I would share the fun this year..

I for one am all ears, I got nothing new.

I'm just following the new stories on Rense and a few other places, Dug.  A lot of it is still recycled but there are more listeners and questioners all the time.

http://theintelhub.com/2010/09/09/corporate-news-runs-911-truth-ae-911-truth-conference-presents-explosive-evidence/

http://www.rense.com/     has a pretty good collection of articles and the latest stuff, but trying to get someone to listen who wants to believe the lies of the government is pretty hard.

http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-10493-0-20-20--.html     Commissioners don't buy it.

http://www.legitgov.org/9_1_1_oddities.html Oddities

I was kinda hoping to avoid 9/11 this year.
It's hard to separate the conspiracy from the hype, so I don't try anymore.

My reality is a little harsher. On that day I was in an airport with a client. No one paid much attention to the news because someone or the other had been trying to bring those buildings down for a long time....and, they were in New York.

If I had said this on 9/10, I'd have gotten a big laugh. "Someone should crash a big plane into New York" someone would have chimed in and said "Yeah, they otta crash two of them".

On the way back to the office I stopped for gas and a fellow who was obviously from New York, came in babbling about what was going on. The response from everyone he talked to was the same..."So what!"

All of a sudden on 9/12, the American people became best friends with New Yorkers and the 9/11 BS started.

I'm sorry I'm not as sympathetic as I should be. i didn't know any of those killed that day, people die every minute of every day, I have a thorough dislike for New Yorkers to start with and this is just an excuse to shred our Constitution, and so far, they've done a very good job of it.

Quote from: peternap on September 12, 2010, 05:20:40 AM

On the way back to the office I stopped for gas and a fellow who was obviously from New York, came in babbling about what was going on. The response from everyone he talked to was the same..."So what!"

This is one of the more despicable things I've ever seen posted here. 

Really, "So what"  that 3000 Ameicans were being murdered in cold blood by terrorists.  Reprehensible.

Quote from: bmancanfly on September 12, 2010, 09:26:16 AM

Quote from: peternap on September 12, 2010, 05:20:40 AM

On the way back to the office I stopped for gas and a fellow who was obviously from New York, came in babbling about what was going on. The response from everyone he talked to was the same..."So what!"

This is one of the more despicable things I've ever seen posted here.  

Really, "So what"  that 3000 Ameicans were being murdered in cold blood by terrorists.  Reprehensible.

I could sugar coat it, but that was the attitude.
There are tragedies every day and on a larger magnitude, much larger.

Maybe I should make up some stories about all the folks screaming and pulling their hair at the news, just for your benefit. It didn't happen though.
The aftermath, the Patriot Act and destruction of our country by our own government, is far worse than anything a few terrorists could possibly do.

Now if you want some emotional discharge. Ask those same people in the gas station what they think about the Government's handling of 9/11. I'll guarantee. you won't get "So What".

I'm not going to try and educate you,  because it would be a waste of my time.

But just inhumane and despicable.  Period.

Quote from: bmancanfly on September 12, 2010, 09:52:30 AM
I'm not going to try and educate you,  because it would be a waste of my time.

Thank You!

Quote from: bmancanfly on September 12, 2010, 09:52:30 AM
I'm not going to try and educate you,  because it would be a waste of my time.

But just inhumane and despicable.  Period.

I know how you feel but I will .

Our government wants Muslims and Middle Easterners blamed to forward their agendas.  See PNAC - we need another Pearl Harbor to get the support of the people.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=PNAC+-+we+need+another+Pearl+Harbor+to+get+the+support+of+the+people.+&btnG=Google+Search

All they need to do is fool the gullible 95% of Americans who will look no farther than their word and believe their sham investigations.  They just want to ignore the facts, look the other way and not think about the mass murder that is being done in their name.  

They do not give a crap about America's (The US part)name being drug through the gutter by the elite who have stolen our country for greed and power.  They have little love for more than their sports, beer or drugs.  

They will not look at the Mossad agents who were sent to record the even and were dancing and high five-ing each other when the planes hit, then after an investigation by our complicit government, were given their freedom and sent back to Israel.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=PNAC+-+we+need+another+Pearl+Harbor+to+get+the+support+of+the+people.+&btnG=Google+Search#sclient=psy&num=10&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=dancing+israelis+on+9+11&aq=f&aqi=g5&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=280187d6f0589da0

http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Bollyn-dancing-Israelis.html

They don't want to think that they were a part of the vote that helped get these guys into office and that includes the current administration who is continuing and intensifying Bush policies - there is no change so get over it.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=vote+fraud+bush+9%2F11&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/vote_fraud_evidence122.html

Voting makes voters feel like they are responsible - vote fraud directs action in the intended direction.

QuoteJosef Stalin was certainly correct: "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."

A sense of helplessness because they are unable to do nothing about it- yeah - I can see that.... it's pretty well to much broke to be able to fix it, like an old car that is beyond repair... time for a new one.  

Tea parties to make them feel like they are empowering themselves and next election they will turn this thing around?  They need to look at their natural resources.  Crap replacing crap - criminals replacing criminals.  They have no new improved parts to repair the old car with.  They system is geared to only accept defective parts so more profit can be made for the owners of the system.

The system brought us 9/11 and all evidence to those who will look says it could not have happened without our governments assistance at the minimum.

Mental masturbation - that's a tea party.

I find it despicable that the government has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, (actually around 2 million since Gulf War) in the name of 9-11. Even the Afghani war is a joke. They decided to overthrow the Taliban, and commit to nation building rather than just hunting down the few Al Qaida that had left the reservation, so to speak. Al Qaida was created by the C.I.A. in the late 1970's early 1980's by Brezenski (sp). There used to be a video of him standing on a mountaintop on the Pakistan/Afghanistan border telling the people their that they were the soldiers of god and to go and fight the infidels (Russians).

I'm personally tired of 9-11 this/that. How many years are the networks going to be doing these "Lets all remember 9-11" marathons.

QuoteBut just inhumane and despicable.  Period.

So is the killling of innocent Middle Eastern people.  But I suppose it's just "collateral damage".

9/11 is still important as that was a major turning point in the theft of the United States so we need to remember it not only for the deaths of the innocent Americans but as the point when the PNAC and associates was successful in their quest to steal our country and as the time when the majority of the American people were mentally devastated and refused to believe what was happening to them.  Most are still afraid to look.  They know it is true and will not look. 

That is the event that we must never forget.  The deaths of the innocent victims of 9/11 was terrible.  The deaths around the world because they were successful make our 3000 pale in comparison.  Our military sons and daughters die daily and yet we are brainwashed into believing that it is for more than power, mineral conquest and oil.  Their lives are stolen for big business, CIA and elite drug running and the American nightmare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc7i0wCFf8g

Watch GHWB in the above video clip, please.

Quote from: IronRanger on September 12, 2010, 10:49:20 AM

QuoteBut just inhumane and despicable.  Period.

So is the killling of innocent Middle Eastern people.  But I suppose it's just "collateral damage".

Our sons and daughters giving their lives to save our country, lives which are stolen for big business and big politics, are also collateral damage and yet we don't really give a s---.   Hey, how about them Cowboys?

My wife works trying to piece them back together either physically or mentally on a regular basis at the VA.  Many of them are getting a clue what is happening to them but it was too late for them to get out of it.

Those who don't want to rehash it or talk about it typify America.  No fault of theirs.  They are victims of a massive brainwashing campaign that is so successful coming at them from all sides that they cannot even believe it has happened to them.

QuoteThe individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst. It rejects even the assumption that human creatures could espouse a philosophy which must ultimately destroy all that is good and decent.

    * The Elks Magazine (August 1956)

J Edgar Hoover....    He should know if anyone does....

Quote from: IronRanger on September 12, 2010, 10:49:20 AM

QuoteBut just inhumane and despicable.  Period.

So is the killling of innocent Middle Eastern people.  But I suppose it's just "collateral damage".

Amen.

All I'll say is that regardless of who did 9/11 it is obvious that there was an effort by the higher ups in the executive branch to supress any real investigation. That alone is enough to warrant someone standing trial for obstruction of justice. But not one person was investigated for this. To ask us to belive that they can just pick who did it with no proof whatsoever is unbelivable. But that's exactly what they did. They picked a guilty group and blamed it on them without any proof then procceded to bomb anyone who spoke the same language and dressed like their guilty parties. The law applies to all or it applies to no one.

John Kennedy's speech on secret societies

Here is the short version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnkdfFAqsHA&feature=related


These two are the complete speech -- which is worth it IMO


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLn7zbxyrPM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-eondM7DaA&feature=related

Yeah - another case where saying or doing the wrong thing makes you dead.  Good stuff though.

Paul Craig Roberts comments (courtesy of the Silverbear cafe)

http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/09.10/canthandle.html

Quote from: Windpower on September 13, 2010, 10:47:32 AM
Paul Craig Roberts comments (courtesy of the Silverbear cafe)

://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/09.10/canthandle.html

The whole truther movement is nothing more than a paranoid delusion.  Nothing more than innuendo completely unsupported by the facts. 

The History channel did a great documentary on the truther movement where they eviserated every truther theory one by one -  quite interesting.  When they confronted the perpetrators of the false theories with the facts they basically say "oh well" and just create different theories,  which are then scientifically disproved.  They're always a moving target.  And a certain segment of the populace is always willing to buy into it however ridiculous and unsubstantiated the theories are.

The same people who don't think the the US gov't can even deliver the mail properly believe that the US gov't orchestrated this immense conspiracy and have managed to keep it a secret,  without one person spilling the beans,  for nearly a decade.  Preposterous.

The only conspiracy is the conspiracy of incompetence by the Bush adm. leading up to the attacks.  The warning signs were flashing and they chose to ignor them,  and the America people chose to forgive them (Bush, Cheney, Rice the whole lot).  The attacks were preventable,  but the Bush adm. was indifferent to the threat of terrorism pre 9/11.

 from your name 'bmancanfly' I am not sure you are a pilot or a wannabe


If you were a pilot then you would know absolutely that the Official Government Conspiracy Theory is simply impossible

Passenger jet planes do not and cannot fly faster than Vmo

this one simple FACT discredits the whole official government conspiracy theory

thousands and thousands of people kept the Manhattan project secret and in fact there is still much that is secret

so I guess people can keep a secret

Richard Gage has recently published some of his investigative work in a peer reviewed journal

the dust from the WTC contains weaponized thermite

Look it up yourself, I refuse to spoon feed facts to sheep anymore


People that cannot believe their own eyes are, by definition, delusional

Thank you for providing witness that Paul Craig Roberts is correct in his analysis of US citizens

QuoteThe whole truther movement is nothing more than a paranoid delusion.  Nothing more than innuendo completely unsupported by the facts.

I really wish that were the case, I would love to be able to believe the official story and go on with business as usual but objectively viewed I think it is the 911 commission report that is completely unsupported by facts. There are so many suspect issues involved in this crime that it seems insane not to conduct a full investigative review, that one has not been implemented  seems cause for alarm in itself.

Hundreds of pieces of this unsolved puzzle contain hard incriminating evidence that remain unanswered and uncontested. Hundreds of decorated pilots with a lifetime of experience under their belt have attested to the hijackers odds of hitting the building in the first place, most difinitively say impossible and the remainder conclude it bould be highly unlikely. How are we to believe that the worlds greatest air force was unable to intercept the hijackers? Only if they were told to stand down.

I could swallow a few of the odd events that occurred on that day, but it is impossible to ingest the entire web of fallacies.

Terrorstorm is highly worth watching and contains oodles of evidence, not theories, against the Bush administration and many others relating to this event.

I think that delusional is a good word to describe the majority of the populace who completely buy the governments hole ridden version.

My point is,  if you want to put up an alternative version of what happened,  then it has to be supported by facts.  And none of the truther theories contain anything more than innuendo.   And the official version is completely supported by  fact, science, history and even a basic understanding of current events.

I'd like to believe in unicorns too, but until someone produces some valid evidence that one exists............

Occam's Razor;  the simpliest explanation is almost always the right one.

The 9/11 attacks were not even that complicated or sophisticated to pull off.  Why the need for an elaborate conspiracy?  The terrorist attacks against us had been building for years.  9/11 was just the next logical progression.

One of the hallmarks of conspiracy theorists it that "everyone else just doesn't get it",  "we have the truth and the sheeple just don't get it".  Classic conspiracy theory,  persued with almost a religious fervor.  

It's sad to admit that a rag tag band of terrorist put our multi trillion dollar defense system to shame,  but it's the truth.  Ever hear of the Maginot Line?

The facts and science aren't on the side of the truthers.   But that won't stop many people from trying to personally profit from the doubters.  It's become a whole cottage industry (no pun intended).

Oh, and about thermite
http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm
totally debunked

Quoteif you want to put up an alternative version of what happened,  then it has to be supported by facts.  And none of the truther theories contain anything more than innuendo.   And the official version is completely supported by  fact, science, history and even a basic understanding of current events.

I don't pretend to know what really happened but if you believe the above statement you must depend on information exclusively from major American media. If you dug into it at all you would be forced to realize that the wackos on the other side of the fence have a lot more to cling to than innuendos, unfortunately. A substantial portion of the rest of the world doesn't believe it either because they have the advantage of looking at the matter more objectively.

Maybe some folks pursue it with a religious fever because it is so damn important.

I respect your point of view Dug.  But every point the truthers make has been refuted,  point by point. 

When your watching a magician it seems like he's doing magic.  But we know he isn't.  The truthers do the same thing with words, to mislead people with suspicion and innuendo.  Leaving the viewer with the impression that "wow this must be true".   Until  you start pulling their arguements apart piece by piece,  and then it all falls apart.

Suspicion is not the basis for a theory.

No harm in disagreeing with me.   But lacking any solid evidence,  my mind remains unchanged.

Well technically suspicion, or speculacion is the basis for theory.

In the days following 9/11 I remember events transpiring that to me seemed very eerie beyond the obvious tragedy. I guess I was forming a mental theory that things were not exactly as we were being told. This was well before I had heard about any official conspiracy theories and I felt obligated to do some investigating on my own, and what I found was sobering. There may not be any one fatally damning piece of evidence against the commission report but added together, the facts (yes facts) pose a formidable challenge to the accepted point of view.

If a fair trial were held in a legitimant court with unbiased jurors (have to travel to another planet to find those), given all the facts I think the jury would deliberate for about 10 minutes. If the verdict were as it stands now I think you would see a reaction akin to the aftermath of the OJ trial. Well maaaybe he didn't do it but.....

By the way I respect your and all other opinions as well. I for one hope I am wrong.

Bman, it is sad to see your eyes closed so tightly - I doubt that you will ever be able to see reality again.  Probably blinded by Fox News.

I am also a pilot, did my private, instrument and commercial.  

The fact is that it is impossible for any plane to get that far off of a commercial flight plan without being intercepted by the US military, unless they were ordered to let them go by an official having power over them.  ATC would have heads rolling and that is a fact.  The flight controllers were concerned and made a tape of the events.  Their superior destroyed it.  That is a fact.

When my sister called to tell me of the terrorist's planes hitting the trade WTC, I immediately said BS.....  that is impossible even with the safeguards in place at the time.  I have been intercepted near Nevada in severe turbulence and I was only a little off course.  No way these guys flew around all of that time with an AFB under them without our help.

I was on to them the minute it happened.  Believe the official fairy tales if you want but if you really want to know what happened you need to question what you are being fed.

Military officers also question the official story.

http://www.mo911truth.org/

QuoteThe History channel did a great documentary on the truther movement where they eviserated every truther theory one by one -  quite interesting.  

Is this the same History Channel that believes the "pancake" theory, and even showed a short computer generated image of one floor hitting the other, then the other, etc, etc; But showed the main interior (major load bearing) steel columns standing intact? I have no problem with them showing that C.G.I. and telling people that is how a pancake collapse happens. That's not what happened. The Twin Towers did not suffer a pancake collapse and the steel columns were not left standing. There is plenty of picture and video evidence to determine this. In fact there are photo's showing the main steel columns with apparent  angler cuts on them....to make them fail. Also the Towers fell at nearly free-fall speed....as if nothing was below the collapsing floors. This defies basic physics and in itself suggests that something was clearing the floors below....explosives, thermate/thermite, etc. I suggest watching the documentary 9-11 Hero. It shows the last man to leave the Towers, William Rodriguez who worked as a janitor there and probably knew the Towers better than anybody. He talks about what he heard and saw.

I suppose you believe that Osama bin Laden is roaming around the very mountainous (more rugged and remote than anything in the lower 48) border of Afghanistan and Pakistan with his kidney dialysis machine, just barely evading air force and CIA drones, special forces, cruise missile attacks and fighter/bomber missions? rofl Did you ever question how fast the Bush administration and Congress drafted and passed the infamous "Patriot Act" ? It takes several months to craft a Bill that size and complex. They did it in a few weeks ???  The fact is that elements of the various U.S. intelligence agencies, military industrial complex, and some heavy political puppet masters had a hand in this.

bman

quote
Oh, and about thermite
http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm
totally debunked
unquote

debunkers  ::)

No

Go read here what over 1200 Architects and Engineers have to say

They have proof of weaponized thermite in dust collected from the debris of the WTC


http://www.ae911truth.org/

that's it,  I am not wasting any more of my time on ya bman

Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 13, 2010, 05:49:44 PM

I was on to them the minute it happened. 

Well, why bother looking at any evidence if you know what happened before any evidence was available?  

Maybe you did it?  I mean you've got a pilots license, you had some Muslims at you house recently,  where were you on 9/11? rofl
I'll start the truthers 2.0 movement.   I've got more evidence for my theory then the truthers do for theirs.

You don't have a log cabin in LA do you? [slap]

Quote from: bmancanfly on September 13, 2010, 06:34:34 PM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 13, 2010, 05:49:44 PM

I was on to them the minute it happened.  

Well, why bother looking at any evidence if you know what happened before any evidence was available?  

Maybe you did it?  I mean you've got a pilots license, you had some Muslims at you house recently,  where were you on 9/11? rofl
I'll start the truthers 2.0 movement.   I've got more evidence for my theory then the truthers do for theirs.

I wouldn't waste a good plane to change the will of the public and make them agreeable to sacrifice the lives of their children and those of innocent victims but it is obvious that our politicians and big business don't have my scruples.

It's almost unbelievable that you will buy lies that defy physics, yet you will not look at questions that need honest answers.  I seldom see that kind of fear of knowing the truth.

I do not understand why you support them so steadfastly.  Is it because you may have voted for them and feel partially responsible for their crimes?  It's OK... we know you did not know or suspect that they would go through with it.....it's  OK ..calm down .... it wasn't your fault.... no more need to hide... we will not hurt you...

If you think I supported the Bush adm. you are sadly mistaken.  I was opposed to the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act long before it was fashionable to do so.  And I never,  ever,  believe Fox News.

This isn't about politics. 

I simple don't think the truther conspiracies have any valid proof - and yes I have listened to them all.  But they have all been debunked with valid scientific evidence.  As far as the Towers coming down,  gravity works.  No great conspiracy is necessary or evident.  You're free to believe differently if you choose to.

Asserting that those who don't buy into the conspiracy theories are sticking their heads in the sand is,  in my opinion,  not bourne out by the facts.  The reason why so many Americans don't believe the conspiracy theories is because they are so implausible.

However,  we are in agreement about the warmongering that goes on in this country.  I'm completely on board with that.  It's shameful and wasteful, in human cost and treasure.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 13, 2010, 05:49:44 PM

I was on to them the minute it happened.  Believe the official fairy tales if you want but if you really want to know what happened you need to question what you are being fed.

How many people in the government are in on these official secrets?  Hundreds? Thousands? This is the same government that is so incompetent, it cannot do anything better than private industry.  Just how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernable reason?  How can you believe they could keep a secret this big?

It makes my heart swell with pride to know that there is still controversy flying in the face of reason. Now I must retreat to my cave and hook up my dialysis machine. Your government makes it difficult to get around, but I still do.

QuoteJust how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernable reason?

Outsourcing !

Quote from: Pox Eclipse on September 13, 2010, 10:03:15 PM

How many people in the government are in on these official secrets?  Hundreds? Thousands? This is the same government that is so incompetent, it cannot do anything better than private industry.  Just how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernable reason?  How can you believe they could keep a secret this big?

They didn't keep it secret, the whole world is on to them. As for the reason, lets call it motive, I point to 2 wars in progress a 3rd getting warmed up (Pakistan) and a 4th being sold as we speak (Iran). Not to mention the gutting of the constitution.

Believing that the towers could come down at freefall speed with no resistance or without toppling sideways due to damage being on one side is believing in fairy tales.  I work with structural steel.  They did not get a clear way to the ground without explosives. 

Building 7 was hit by nothing - had a small fire and 20 minutes before it fell it was announced on BBC that it had fallen --- while it was still standing - someone messed up their script.

It did not take that many to run the operation - just the right ones in the right places directing action.

They did not do that good a job of running the operation or that perfect a job of covering it up.  They have done an excellent job of brainwashing the sheep though. 

They know how mental trauma will blind the eyes of those who are afraid to see.  They are afraid to question what their mind was made to think happened.  They have spent billions of taxpayer dollars on research into brainwashing the masses and they know what works.

Quote from: Osama on September 13, 2010, 10:09:55 PM
It makes my heart swell with pride to know that there is still controversy flying in the face of reason. Now I must retreat to my cave and hook up my dialysis machine. Your government makes it difficult to get around, but I still do.

Welcome to the forum, Osama.  Are you going to be back or just one comment?

Nice proxy.

Quote from: peternap on September 13, 2010, 10:10:37 PM

QuoteJust how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernable reason?

Outsourcing !

You got that right, Peter.

120 or so got a free ride back to Israel after the event, no questions asked or allowed.  The Bin Laden family, partners of GHWB in the Carlyle Group got a ride out during the flight ban.  Cool.

The Mossad agents sent to film the event got out scott free and did a TV show about it when they got home.  Some of them were dressed as Arabs to help blame the Muslims.  Research it if you feel like it.  I already have.

Quote from: ScottA on September 14, 2010, 08:06:59 AM

Quote from: Pox Eclipse on September 13, 2010, 10:03:15 PM

How many people in the government are in on these official secrets?  Hundreds? Thousands? This is the same government that is so incompetent, it cannot do anything better than private industry.  Just how the hell is it that they are so bad at health care, education and banking, but so crackerjack at complex conspiracies to kill Americans for no discernible reason?  How can you believe they could keep a secret this big?

They didn't keep it secret, the whole world is on to them. As for the reason, lets call it motive, I point to 2 wars in progress a 3rd getting warmed up (Pakistan) and a 4th being sold as we speak (Iran). Not to mention the gutting of the constitution.

You got it, Scott.  Everyone knows except our sheeple.  Blinded by the greatest country in the world syndrome.  Still thinking our people would not do this to their own.  I have news for you.  Our elite politicians have no love for the people of the US.   They are in their own world.  

Why do they not share our Social Security?  Why do they not share our health care?  Why did the bailout go through when the people were overwhelmingly against it?  How do your miserable choices for politicians allowed into office get made?  Why is the Supreme court installing and keeping in office criminals such as Bush or Obama?  Without Supreme court intervention neither would be or have been in office.  The elite own our "Supreme Court" system too.

What the rest of the world knows.  Read the comments after the article.  This is from a non-censored, non-mainstream forum and respondents are from all over the world.

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/233791

This includes comments from a Muslim regarding Muslim behavior.

Food for thought.



Those who believe we did not assist 9/11 believe that our government has our best interests at heart... they love us and take care of us.

They know that Saudi Arabian terrorists stole jet liners and crashed them into the Twin Towers and hours later after the towers fell they willed building 7 to spontaneously fall completely to the ground in it's own footprint.  Silverstein was lying when he said he told them to pull it and he watched as it fell to the ground.   I can pretend that is true for a moment.

If our government loves us and is not owned by corporate interests, then why are we making deals to sell up to $90 Billion of planes, helicopters, weapons to Saudi Arabia ($60B) and upgrade their navy ($30B additional) when they attacked us (I'm still pretending we didn't assist it)?

Note that at the time of 9/11 Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia was considered a Bush Brother and was called Bandar Bush at times by them.  He buddy - got a few countrymen to help us pull off a little caper?

In reality I think GWB did not completely know what was going on during the 9/11 operation.  It looks more like Cheney and company had the helm with Bush just being sent around the states hiding to keep him out of the way -- the reason security info was leaked - secret codes etc about his whereabouts and plane location.

In the meantime Congolisa (sp) and Cheney were down in the basement of the Whitehouse (undisclosed location)  running out of air and frantically gasping, per her latest lie, as (per Minetta) Cheney ordered the USAF to remain grounded while the planes approached the WTC.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20016181-503543.html

So - it's OK to arm them as long as we profit from it, no matter what 60% of America thinks they did on 9/11  ... [waiting]

Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 14, 2010, 08:56:34 AM

Welcome to the forum, Osama.  Are you going to be back or just one comment?

Nice proxy.

Proxys are a way of life unfortunately. Who knows who is watching and listening.

I do get upset that you believe I am dead and not responsible for 9/11.

I must go, can't be too careful, can't stay in one place too long.

OBL

Thanks OBL  -- are you the real one or one of the fake ones from the new US movies now being produced to make the sheeple be scared and still believe you are alive?

At least you are enlightened to the monitoring of the net.

If you are really you, why, immediately after 9/11, did the real you release a statement saying that you were not responsible for 9/11 and that it was an inside plot by the US government to scare the people into allowing them to do things they would not do otherwise?

That is one of the only things I believe one of the many yous really said.  The rest are movies to this day.

Where were you on the day of 9/11?

Who met with you and where just before 9/11?

Why do you speak to the US in Arabic when you were educated here in the US?  Wouldn't speaking in English be better?  More of us could understand and be scared of you.

When did you stop working for the CIA?  I thought it was once CIA, always CIA.

I've watched this thread with somewhat morbid interest without any desire to join in until now. I'm pretty sure this is a fruitless endeavor....it seems that anyone who disagrees with the 9/11 truther BS must be an un-enlightened Fox news watching member of the sheeple clan. You guys win soo many friends with your smooth even and fair treatment of the facts. This thread reminds me of a fellow at work who pushes all kinds of conspiracy crap...wants me to read articles from "American Free Press" and who can dispense facts for HOURS about how income taxes are un-constitutional. But when asked if he still pays income tax he dips his head and admits that he still pays all his taxes. He kinda loses all his credibility when he admits to paying taxes that he's trying to convince YOU that you don't have to pay.

So here's my challenge to you 9/11 truther adherents...GET OUT!! Go somewhere else! How can you stand to live in such an EVIL country? Put your money where your mouth is!! You go find a better place to live....I'm pretty sure the line waiting to get OUT is a lot shorter than the line waiting to get IN!! Go find us this better place and let us know where it is.....then maybe we'll believe you.

Until then, could you try a bit harder to be civil in your discourse with those who don't believe all the same things you do....please??

Nobody is attacking anybody or forcing them to read this thread.  Information is only posted for others consideration so that they may study the information that they have obviously not studied, will not study and do not want to consider.

Our problem is not with this country or the fact that most of our families gave their all and pioneered here.  Our families love this country and just plain do not like the elite and big business stealing it for fun and profit.  Patriotism is not unquestioningly supporting our treasonous leadership.  Patriotism is caring about the country for what is was meant to be.  The best country in the world.  

Not a place dealing death and destruction to the rest of the world in the quest of oil and minerals that belong to others.   Not a place that steals the lives of our servicemen who offer their lives for the protection of the country.  They did not offer their lives to support contractors profiting in Iraq, or poppy farming for support of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and other countries.

I will gladly support our country in the way it was meant to be... not the death for fun and profit version of it.

I support our servicemen.  I want them all home alive to protect our country in the case of a real threat as they have dedicated themselves to do.  My wife assists in  patching  their physically and mentally broken bodies back together on a regular basis as an RN at the VA.  I do not support the theft of their lives by big business under a fake threat created for profit by our government.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l5bSxpCKEI

Note - edited the above several times - please re-read it.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 14, 2010, 11:27:27 AM
Nobody is attacking anybody or forcing them to read this thread.  Information is only posted for others consideration so that they may study the information that they have obviously not studied, will not study and do not want to consider.

Our problem is not with this country or the fact that most of our families gave their all and pioneered here.  Our families love this country and just plain do not like the elite and big business stealing it for fun and profit.  Patriotism is not unquestioningly supporting our treasonous leadership.  Patriotism is caring about the country for what is was meant to be.  The best country in the world. 

Not a place dealing death and destruction to the rest of the world in the quest of oil and minerals that belong to others.   Not a place that steals the lives of our servicemen who offer their lives for the protection of the country.  They did not offer their lives to support contractors profiting in Iraq, or poppy farming for support of the CIA operations in Afghanistan and other countries.

I will gladly support our country in the way it was meant to be... not the death for fun and profit version of it.

Perfect reply.....I'm with you %100 on everything you just said! No one that I know of believes that there aren't things happening behind the scenes. Things we would not approve of were we to know them. For example...I do believe that our Government may be positioning itself with a sizable military presence in/near the OIL producing states in preperation for the impact of "Peak Oil". However, the "Peak Oil" theory is one that makes sense from a simple mathematics standpoint. I simply do not believe the lying evil money grubbing retards in "charge" of things have a tenth the competancy required to carry something like 9/11 out.

Maybe you folks are right and I/we are wrong....we'll probably never know for certain. But I do appeal to all sides to keep the discourse civil and stop the belittling and name calling.

The trail leads back to Glenn; Therefore this is all Glenn's fault. Issue answered!

You know it Stinky.... but you still love me in spite of it all.. [waiting]



Thanks, Proud Poppa.  

I hope no one takes anything said by anyone here personally.  It is meant to be for education only - enlightenment and getting others to look at things they may not have considered.  Blindly accepting the official lies is not acceptable to one who cares about their country for real. 

Lets not just pay our country lip service.  Lets look farther.  Do you think politicians are the most honorable people in the world and would not lie to you?  Hardly.

Personally I try to make my replies generic and not applicable to anyone specifically.  Where that fails is that some read the reply and apply it to themselves.  

That is not the way it is intended.  

There is no way anyone can know all of the facts in this situation because they were intentionally hidden.  What we can do is look at experience of other professionals who know that their portion of expertise says that the thing they know about couldn't have happened in the way it did without assistance at the least.

Windpower and I are pilots and while I went to professional level training - commercial pilot, I did not fly commercial air liners.  The protocols are the same though.  We have to follow the same rules under IFR flight.  That is how we know that this could not have happened without US assistance.  Many pilots and ATC controllers agree.  It is the end of a career tor an ATC controller to allow this sort of thing to happen unless they are under orders from above to let it happen.  It is not a small thing - it is their livelihood and all they have trained for.

So - please everyone - don't take anything personally here.

Please continue to voice your opinions and open mindedly look at evidence provided by both sides.  No personal attacks - that is part of the brainwashing - divide and conquer.  Label all who look into the lies as conspiracy theorists.  Do not allow them to uncover the conspiracy.

Sorry if anyone is offended.  This is not about attacking anyone.  This is about education and getting others to look at the acts we all find so repulsive and see not the ones we were told to blame, but find out who profits and who the real culprits are.  Just take a look.  It will not hurt.

For those who don't want to look, please know that my wife was like you, except she only looked into the facts to prove me wrong.

Sorry to say she has not been able to do that and she admits that.  Not a lot of facts but all evidence supports the fact that the government official story is a lie.

Her family was big military.  She is a military brat.  Her father was a B52 pilot and instructor and flew tons of secret missions including over Russia as well as escaping from an inverted burning aircraft.

He would not listen to the facts at all and he is now gone with his belief, but that does not change what we have found to be true.  Our elite had to assist for 9/11 to be carried out.

Please , all continue to discuss this and share your thoughts with respect and open mindedness.  Make your replies generic as though they are not pointed at anyone.

Mr Glenn. You ask many questions as you should. You also should know well enough not to believe everything you read or hear.  There is much smoke and mirrors about the subject which obscures the truth. Many of those truthers are just as blinded by what they believe as those who some claim have their heads in the sand blind to the injustices perpetrated by western governments.

Time to move on, strange white trails in the sky overhead.

Cool - another cave - another proxy.  Good Job, Osama.  

Don't drag your dialysis hose on a rock and rip it out - that would be catastrophic.  We need you.  Without you our government may lose control of the sheeple.  Please release your next video on our forum as we can always use more readership.

I have contacts who I think would be happy to link to the vid.

Please be careful as I think our government is getting a fix on your location. Careful moving to the next cave.   Looking forward to your next posting.  No more meetings with the CIA in the Dubai hospital- I think they have an agent watching the doors - but then again - they say your check is ready so you may want to drop in and pick it up.

Take care.

Just to take a little break here.....It seems most of the discourse and name calling is coming from a few new people. I strongly suspect some of these new people are the same old ones that have been reborn.

Osama,
You have my grudging admiration.  You managed to pull these attacks off and get a portion (albeit small portion) of the American people to blame their own gov't.  - even though there is no proof.

Do you feel like Uncle Sam has stolen your thunder?  Any resentment?

more FACTS

http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/architects-and-engineers-for

Thanks, Windpower.  I do not see how anyone can watch that video, consider the facts and not question the official conspiracy.

All I can see is that some will not watch it but will still doggedly hold on to the lies because they cannot face the fact that their government does not have their interests at heart.

It's true --- we are nothing but a nuisance and breeders of cannon fodder to them.

Glenn

there is so much that is stlill great in the US

I flew the 170 an hour in the pattern this evening -- 8 take offs and landings - 122.8 was non stop  talk-- what a wonderful country that we can do this

it makes one even angrier that the PTB are trying to bring  it down

at least we have enjoyed the freedom of general aviation while it was still affordable (LOL)

Makes you want to give Clyde Cessna a hug

I spent a lot of time flying the years that I did it - 15 trips to Mexico  and all over the western half of the US.

Mine was a Cessna 205, but corrosion took it's toll and it was going to cost about twice the value of the plane to fix it.

I'm with you on anger at the ones destroying the country.  My aunt who is about 80 sees what is going on with them and just hopes that it is not true, but she knows it is.  That is why she talks about it.   She cannot deny what even she can see.

Article for your consideration with points from both sides - note that I have not had time to read it all but am posting it as I have to split....

http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/att/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=270:who-did-911-obl-bush-or-mossad-the-evidences&catid=58:the-911-event&Itemid=115

Quote from: Windpower on September 14, 2010, 07:40:11 PM
more FACTS

http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/architects-and-engineers-for

Opinions and speculation, unsupported  by any emperical evidence.  You might want to look up Webster's Dictionary definition of a "fact".
If these guys are in fact architects and engineers then they are in the very,  very, very distinct minority.

Also,  if you watch the second video in that link,  you can very clearly see debris that is falling away from the towers falling faster than the towers themselves.  That debris is actually in freefall,   in stark contrast to the Towers which are not.  It disproves the whole freefall thesis.  And that's the video on their website.

And the truthers never explain why someone would need to blow up the towers after you have just crashed two jetliners into them.  What's the point?  Talk about wearing three pairs of suspenders and half a dozen belts.

Or,  looking at it another way,  why crash two jetliners into the buildings if you're just going to blow'em up anyway.  Why not just blow'em up and save yourself the trouble of hijacking two planes?  It makes no sense whatsoever.

Not to mention,  how the hell would you be able to sabotage the girders and plant all those explosives in one of the busiest office buildings with the best security in the city without anyone noticing?  

These are people who have just drawn the conclusion that the buildings were blown up and are deparately seeking any evidence (even if they have to imagine it) to support their conclusion.

I'll believe the truth,  whatever that is,  but it's got to be supported by credible evidence.  

Mr beeman, yes I do resent the USA, but not for the reasons you ask about. I resented the USA many years before our attacks. I resent the USA on religious grounds, on the facts that their military occupy my religious lands.   I also resent those who say they seek the truth, those who can not accept the facts that a few men could wreak such havoc on a nation by commandeering aircraft and turning them into bombs. It frightens them I think to accept that could be true and so they invent these stories that read like espionage thriller novels. It comforts them in some way to believe their is a vast deep reaching conspiracy and not simply a few true believers of the true god that has done this.

"Laws to make downloading illegal (ACTA), to outlaw the growing of vegetables without a government permit, to make jokes or to call people names illegal. The list is long and defies belief."

Anyone have any info on the second two?

Seems you are a fake taking the part of Osama,  Osama.  You now seem to say that these were your people but that is not what you said immediately after the "attacks".

A stretch of s510  due to its vagueness on the garden, SS.

Quote from: SardonicSmile on September 15, 2010, 09:31:39 AM
"Laws to make   to make jokes or to call people names illegal. The list is long and defies belief."

Anyone have any info on the second two?

http://news.oldva.org/?p=57526
   
Can you be arrested in Henrico when you've broken NO laws.
It appears you can!
Facebook use gets Henrico woman arrested

Imagine getting angry. You're at the computer. Then, you give somebody a real piece of your mind on Facebook. In Henrico, police say that got a woman arrested. The question is: Will the charge hold up in court?

Bmancanfly;

Just wondering what the motive might be for all these professionals to risk their reputations and careers?

Also - how would you dismiss testimonials from pilots such as these-  http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html (http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html)

Put options on United and American airlines 285 times the normal the day before the attack?

Way too many anomalies to not demand answers.

Dug,  the answers to many of your questions can be found here.  It's a point by point rebuttal of most of the truther nonsense.  It also shows how dishonest and sloppy some of the truther theorists are;

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3214024953129565561&hl=en#

There are ample rational explanations, from reputable sources,  readily available for any to wish to find them.  Asking question is a good thing.  Drawing conclusion based on false or fabricated infromation is not.

Peace all. 

I've seen it, and most everything else supporting the commission report. I have done my best to obtain all information available to draw the most accurate conclusion.

No offense, but you seem to accept all the science supporting the commission report while completely dismissing the valid science that goes against it.

Yes, there are thousands of real live scientists and engineers who believe the commission's findings are a joke. Surprisingly, they don't make the national news.   [waiting]

I promised myself I wasn'y going to say anything on this topic. Does this count?

[deadhorse]

QuoteI promised myself I wasn'y going to say anything on this topic. Does this count?

dead horse

I think it gets your point across, but not where you stand on the "official story" of 9/11  [waiting]

Quote from: MountainDon on September 16, 2010, 02:58:03 PM
I promised myself I wasn'y going to say anything on this topic. Does this count?

[deadhorse]

Hillarious!!   [rofl2]

When you look back through history and find that almost every war the United States has fought in the last century we entered under false pretenses, you have to ask why this current one would be any different.

WWI- The sinking of the Lusitiana The US and Britian pretty much begged Germany to sink the Ship
WWII-Pearl Harbor- history has shown that the US had advance warning of the attack and allowed it to occur with any response
Vietnam-Gulf of Tonkin has been proven to be an event that never occurred.

Why is it so hard to believe that our government could have been complicit in the attacks of 9/11.

The problem is our government lies all the time, why should we believe them now?

What the common thread? Private business made a lot of money during those wars. Just like they are now in the gulf war. Our soldiers aren't fighting to preserve democracy ( a word that never appears in the Constitution by the way) They are fighting to make private industries rich

How does the government "lose" 10 billion dollars in Iraq and no one seems to care where it went?

I promised myself I wasn'y going to say anything on this topic. Does this count? (dead horsie that only don can conjure)


Right you are Don. I apologize to anyone who may have suffered any of my tirades.

However it is difficult for me, I'm an optimist and retain the pie eyed outlook that there might yet be some reconciliation and accountability in this matter. Sometimes it feels like an old Alfred Hitchcock movie where the character is screaming at the top of his lungs and no one can hear.

Quote from: dug on September 16, 2010, 07:50:21 PM
I promised myself I wasn'y going to say anything on this topic. Does this count? (dead horsie that only don can conjure)


Right you are Don. I apologize to anyone who may have suffered any of my tirades.

However it is difficult for me, I'm an optimist and retain the pie eyed outlook that there might yet be some reconciliation and accountability in this matter. Sometimes it feels like an old Alfred Hitchcock movie where the character is screaming at the top of his lungs and no one can hear.

The tirades here are pretty mild Dug.
Contrary to popular opinion, gun people don't all get along. There are some sites that I frequent that make Church attendance mandatory after I visit them. :-\

[deadhorse] was not aimed anyone... it was aimed at the topic...

As far as my position goes, even though there are many things I believe the federal government, my state government and my local government can be fairly criticized and condemned for, that there are things that they have lied about at times, I do not believe the attack on the twin towers, or the pentagon were orchestrated by any level of government anywhere.   Nor the plane that went down in PA. Nor were the NY building collapses orchestrated. A missile never hit the pentagon. I think that pretty much covers that topic

That's all I have so say. For the very curious a site search will reveal a variety of comments I've made on the topic; now and then back to about 2007 I think.  

One further item.  Please be clear the following is my personal, individual opinion.


I believe I have put more or less as much thought into the subject of 9/11 as many other people who have passionate views on the subject. There is one thing that 'bugs' me about many of the discussions.

Sheeple is a derogatory term. Its use shows a condescending, demeaning attitude. It is a personal putdown. It implies I'm better than you, I'm right and you are wrong. It smacks of a disdainful arrogance, a patronizing sanctimony.

Sheeple insinuates a non thinking person with no ability to process information and make decisions for themselves. Just because someone comes up with an idea, thought or opinion that differs from what one believes themselves does not make that other person a fool, an idiot or a sheeple.

We are better than name calling.


At least that is my personal take on it.

Quotewas not aimed anyone... it was aimed at the topic..

Well I was not offended, I should have inserted one of these  ;) as I was only half kidding. Not about the dead horse part though, you are right Don, that's what it has become.

Quote from: peternap on September 16, 2010, 08:48:54 PM
Contrary to popular opinion, gun people don't all get along. There are some sites that I frequent that make Church attendance mandatory after I visit them. :-\

Heck, not too long ago, when gun people didn't get along it resulted in mandatory attendance at an funeral parlor for one, and a courthouse for another.

I don't view sheeple as being derogatory.  Sorry if anyone takes it that way.

I view sheeple as anyone who will blindly accept the official lies the government is telling in light of their past behavior as Dug mentioned.

They meekly and mildly get herded into the flock to graze only where they are told.  They do not question the shepherds actions - just get slapped with a conspiracy theorist label if they do and either the rush back into the flock or are outcast to possibly be destroyed.

Not questioning is exactly what they want you to do.  That makes me want to question it even more.

Evidence says there is a major crime here that our people were in on.  Looking the other way will not bring any of it to light.

Bman, I am curious?  What is your motivation for unquestioning support? What would make you want to overlook evidence of a crime?

Investments?  Relatives involved?  People you voted for?  

Please don't take this as a put down or anything of the sort.  I seriously want to understand why you would not look into allegations of crime when so much evidence points toward it.  

Yet, you will not even consider it seriously and consider questioning it ridiculous.  Can you not see that that is the way you have been programmed to react?  Why won't you look into it?

I am just trying to understand why people are that way.   What is the rationale behind that thought pattern?  It cannot be that politicians are such upstanding citizens.  Much evidence from the past indicates the contrary.

Quote from: dug on September 16, 2010, 09:53:19 PM

Quotewas not aimed anyone... it was aimed at the topic..

Well I was not offended, I should have inserted one of these  ;) as I was only half kidding. Not about the dead horse part though, you are right Don, that's what it has become.

That is exactly what is wrong here.

This should be a subject that is pursued to conviction.  Not one that continues to be swept under the rug and looking the other way and GWB told you to do - label questioners conspiracy theorist and don't take the subject seriously.  We would be ruled by Hitler if many didn't question his actions and all looked the other way.  I'm sure he also did not allow questioning but good for us that some persisted.

Looking nthe other way will allow the guilty ones to succeed as they said they will.  I am not talking about the individual who made the statement , but the group he and the parties responsible are a part of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CWBTL33MpA&feature=related

A link to the PNAC goals and statements- I don't necessarily endorse anything on this site and haven't reviewed anything else there - just that I found the info on this subject there..

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/nc-pilger.html

QuoteWhat is your motivation for unquestioning support? What would make you want to overlook evidence of a crime?

Investments?  Relatives involved?  People you voted for? 

It is my opinion/observation that people, American's in particular have trouble separating their belief in country from government, and patriotism from blind obedience, and maybe one of the biggest supporting the troops = supporting the president = supporting the war(s), no matter the reasoning for the war(s).

Sheeple are simple people who see and hear the facts but are unable to accept them, for what ever reasons  ???

At the possible cost of lengthening this thread I do have one question. Soon to follow. As near as i can see....no one on either side of this issue changed their mind. That seems to be the case these days on a lot of issues. Our country is extremely polarized it seems to me. Now here is my question:

Lets just say that you convinced everyone on this forum that our government is responsible for setting up 3000 people to die in 9/11 to stir the American public into supporting the invasion of the middle east so that a few rich guys/companies could go steal those poor peace loving Muslims oil. I think that's the general meat of your argument.

So.....now what?

Quite honestly....we could have a totally peaceful revolution in this country every 4 to 6 years....it's called VOTING. I wonder how many here actually vote. At any rate I DO VOTE....every chance I get. And I think it's safe to say that to my knowledge....unless it's some local county office.....that there is not one single person representing me in either the state or federal governments that I voted for.

So what is it you expect of me by "convincing" me of the evil of the USA?

Quote from: Proud_Poppa on September 17, 2010, 02:10:06 PM
I wonder how many here actually vote.

I/we do.   :D   I know there are those who say it doesn't make any difference. I believe if one votes, after giving it some real thought, not being a sheeple in other words, it may just keep "them" off guard and concerned enough to watch what they do.

Quote from: Proud_Poppa on September 17, 2010, 02:10:06 PM
At the possible cost of lengthening this thread I do have one question. Soon to follow. As near as i can see....no one on either side of this issue changed their mind. That seems to be the case these days on a lot of issues. Our country is extremely polarized it seems to me. Now here is my question:

Lets just say that you convinced everyone on this forum that our government is responsible for setting up 3000 people to die in 9/11 to stir the American public into supporting the invasion of the middle east so that a few rich guys/companies could go steal those poor peace loving Muslims oil. I think that's the general meat of your argument.

So.....now what?

Quite honestly....we could have a totally peaceful revolution in this country every 4 to 6 years....it's called VOTING. I wonder how many here actually vote. At any rate I DO VOTE....every chance I get. And I think it's safe to say that to my knowledge....unless it's some local county office.....that there is not one single person representing me in either the state or federal governments that I voted for.

So what is it you expect of me by "convincing" me of the evil of the USA?

If you spend enough time here, you'll find most of us do vote and are active in politics in one way or another.

What you're getting here are ideas and discussion, not necessary conversion. My conspiracy theories fall along the same lines as Mountain Don's. I am a little right of him when it comes to government abuse of power, but that's what makes this board different. We all get along for the most part, even though we all have different priorities and beliefs.

The voting revolution may be a little harder than you think simply because money gets votes and the best choices for the job may not have money.

The top 1 % of Americans now earn over 20% of the income

These same 1% along with companies can now (courtesy of our criminal "supreme court' ) spend unlimited funds in promoting or getting rid of politicians they don't think will continue to help them line their pockets

while this doesn't make voting a waste of time, it is getting closer to that all the time

"It's been going on for 10 thousand years"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfmYF6Yboa4

So I told him
That he'd better
Shut his mouth
And do his job like a man
And he answered,
"Listen, father,
I will never
Kill another"
He thinks he's better
Than his brother that died
What the hell does
He think he's doing
To his father
Who brought him up right?

Take your place on
The Great Mandella
As it moves through your brief moment of time
Win or lose now
You must choose now
And if you lose you're only losing your life

Tell the jailor
Not to bother
With his meal
Of bread and water today
He is fasting
Till the killing's over
He's a martyr
He thinks he's a prophet
But he's a coward
He's just playing a game
He can't do it
He can't change it
It's been going on for ten thousand years

Take your place on
The Great Mandella
As it moves through your brief moment of time
Win or lose now
You must choose now
And if you lose you're only losing your life

Tell the people
They are safe now
Hunger stopped him
He lies still in his cell
Death has gagged his accusations
We are free now
We can kill now
We can hate now
Now we can end the world
We're not guilty
He was crazy
And it's been going on for ten thousand years!

Take your place on
The Great Mandella
As it moves through your brief moment of time
Win or lose now
You must choose now
And if you lose you've only wasted your life




and that is why we must continue to hold the bastard's feet to fire all the time

Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 17, 2010, 10:04:51 AM
I don't view sheeple as being derogatory.  Sorry if anyone takes it that way.

I view sheeple as anyone who will blindly accept the official lies the government is telling in light of their past behavior as Dug mentioned.

So I agree with Don... and your statement above is precisely why it is offensive.  You're passing judgement that someone is blindly accepting (whatever).  You're basing this purely on your own biases, not proven fact.  Just because someone does not agree with your position, does not mean that they have not carefully reviewed and processed their own set of data, and have come to their own conclusion. 

It is a form of bigotry, to demean those purely based on difference of opinion.  I've been guilty of this myself, and am trying not to fall into behavior like that again.

If we use Dug's basis that "the government has lied to us before, so this is a lie too".  Doesn't hold water.  It is purely Ad Hominem. 

You can't pull that out as an argument either for or against something and only use it when it suits your position.

Bob Bowman

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html#Bowman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYAHPuaBmV0&feature=player_embedded

Col Robert Bowman
President of the Institute for Space and Security Studies
Executive Vice President of Millennium III Corporation
retired Presiding Archbishop of the United Catholic Church
101 combat missions in Vietnam
directed all the "Star Wars" programs under Presidents Ford and Carter
recipient of the Eisenhower Medal
George F. Kennan Peace Prize
President's Medal of Veterans for Peace
Society of Military Engineers' ROTC Award of Merit (twice)
Six Air Medals
Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech
chaired 8 major international conferences
one of the country's foremost experts on National Security
independent candidate for President of the US in 2000
http://thepatriots.us

For those that don't believe the US government would be capable of participating in false flag attacks to further its goals, Here is an article about the Gladio project in Europe and how the US assisted in setting up secret armies after WWII. Those armies participated in terrorist attacks and blamed them on left-wing fringe groups.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/content/natos-secret-armies (http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/content/natos-secret-armies)

The Authors conclusion:

QuoteAmerica, to this day, is the world's leading state-sponsored terrorism exponent, at home and abroad. CIA, FBI, and Homeland Security operatives are in the lead, putting a myth to their abiding by the rule of law or a nation espousing democratic freedoms, human rights, civil liberties, and equal justice, what only an aroused public can stop if awakened to the danger and acts.

Hey... here's a clue.  Don't believe everything you read, or see a video on.  "Experts" are frequently whack jobs themselves.  (This covers both sides).

Look, I get it.  Many of you are vehemently anti-US, anti-Israel, anti-capitalism and apple pie.  You've run out of tangible things to have a beef about, yet your angst still overflows. 

If I had to guess, I would guess that most conspiracy folks are angry and bitter people, disappointed with the way their life has turned out.  Not willing to take the blame for their own unhappiness, they lash out at the pseudo-parental figure in their lives....which happens to be the government / big business / military. 

They're looking at blaming the NWO, spearheaded by George Bush, and big corporations in America for 9/11, chemtrails, earthquakes, climate change, Tsunami destruction, yada, yada, yada. 

They uphold these beliefs in spite of the fact that they (or anyone else) have absolutely zero hard evidence.  Ask Michael Moore about getting folks to believe anything.  He and PT Barnum have got folks pretty well figured out. 

But hey, that's okay.  Nothing wrong with any of the above.  After all, this is America.  Short of calling the president a p***k, you can pretty much do whatever you want in your spare time.  I think you're insane, but I'll still drink a beer with you or hammer a nail. 

Speaking of spare time, I just wasted some of mine on this thread.  Won't happen on this one again! 

QuoteIf I had to guess, I would guess that most conspiracy folks are angry and bitter people, disappointed with the way their life has turned out.  Not willing to take the blame for their own unhappiness, they lash out at the pseudo-parental figure in their lives....which happens to be the government / big business / military. 

You guess wrong.  My anger's directed exactly where it needs to be- at whomever's treading on the constitution and expecting me to grin and bear it.  False optimism is a common feeling amongst Tea Partiers, neo-cons and right-wingers.  Rainbows and puppy dog's tails.  Let's keep everything private and allow everyone to hold their own beliefs- as long as they agree with us.

Conservatives believe Liberals are to blame for the ills of this nation, when it's much more frequently the right-wing hypocrites laughing all the way to the bank.

Too many conservatives (especially former military) ignore that our government/military has committed false flag attacks in the past.  Too many believe in putting on a SHOW of force for the world to quake before.  Too many lay before the altar of authority getting his ego scratched by his leader and waiting patiently for his master to take him for a run-around the yard.

Yet, once more, the "conspiracy theorists" are ridiculed for their "ignorance".   d*

The irony here is that conservatives view us as hate-filled and unhappy.  That's the most laughable thing of all.

Actually the term, Conspiracy Theorist is meant to demean and label those who think the government could do wrong for any reason as nutcases.

It is a prescriptive  response directed to be used against anyone who questioned the massive criminal operation they pulled off on 9/11 by GWB.

At least in my use of the word sheeple, it is not meant to be derogatory by me, but only to describe a group who will not accept the fact that their government who has deceived them is still doing it and will continue to do it in the future as in the past.  It is a group of people I pity and feel sorry for - not hate or mean to deride.

I agree that people who can see what is being done are not sad, scared or hate the US.  They in fact love the US more than those who only look the other way and ignore the crime, the loss of life and the theft of our freedoms being perpetrated on us by our criminal leadership.

My relatives came here in 1889 sacrificing even the lives of their children to hardship, disease and death to homestead the Oregon territory.  They loved this country enough to go to the point of losing their lives for it.

What we are dissatisfied with is the theft of the principles and values they felt is was worth dying for.  What we are dissatisfied with is the apathy toward that theft and the attitude that anything that is done to our country, any way our criminal leadership wants to soil our name around the world is OK.  The repulsion against a real investigation because the government does not want them to look and blocks every effort against a real investigation.  Think the Gulf oil spill is over?  Better check it out a bit better.

We are not OK with looking the other way as evidence points to the fact that our government assisted in a massive operation to change the views of the masses to support the unending wars for a concept that will allow our  military and corporations to attack and plunder any country anywhere for oil, riches and power.

What is un-American about wanting to look into high treason performed by our leadership?  Our country was founded on principals to stop exactly that sort of thing.  

It seems it is only un-American if we will not push an investigation of all facts with an unbiased group that will actually dig to the bottom of things and not be stopped by criminal censorship.

It seems to me that that is love of our country.  Not looking the other way and accepting whatever our leadership throws at us as truth.  In this type of situation it seems that those who will not push for investigation are the ones who do not love the country.

Antisemitism -- the very word is simply another way to stop investigation of things certain groups do not want looked at.  Search my name and you will find lots of my relatives listed in Jewish cemeteries in Lithuania.  

I have no hate for them or others of Israel who are not criminally involved with our leadership and the theft of the US as it was meant to be.

I tolerate, host and befriend people from all over the world.  I have been invited to stay in homes from the Middle East (Muslim) to China to Japan to South America.  Dislike of criminals and their works knows no bounds though.

Just as people in your own city may do harm to you and you know that, is it impossible to think that rogue elements in your government will not do things that are against the interests of the people and our country?  Is not weeding that out love of country?

Quote from: MountainDon on September 16, 2010, 08:57:49 PM
[deadhorse] was not aimed anyone... it was aimed at the topic...

I agree, Don.  We cannot discuss this topic intelligently with out comments some find offensive and all comments whether they are offensive to some or not must be aimed at the topic. 

If we do not talk about things that may offend some of us if taken personally, then the topic will die and that is exactly what they want to see happen.  Lets continue to discuss and look at both sides.  We may all learn something.

Well I spent the better part of half an hour posting a comment this morning only to have it deleted when I tried to delete one sentence.  d* It was a doozy too, I think I dang near had that old horse breathing again!  ;)

I'll try again with a couple of issues I feel are worthy of mentioning.

QuoteLets just say that you convinced everyone on this forum that our government is responsible for setting up 3000 people to die in 9/11 to stir the American public into supporting the invasion of the middle east so that a few rich guys/companies could go steal those poor peace loving Muslims oil. I think that's the general meat of your argument.

So.....now what?

A valid question that I believe prevents 90% of Americans from even considering the possibility of a government conspiracy.

QuoteLook, I get it.  Many of you are vehemently anti-US, anti-Israel, anti-capitalism and apple pie.  You've run out of tangible things to have a beef about, yet your angst still overflows. 

If I had to guess, I would guess that most conspiracy folks are angry and bitter people, disappointed with the way their life has turned out.  Not willing to take the blame for their own unhappiness, they lash out at the pseudo-parental figure in their lives....which happens to be the government / big business / military. 

I really think you have this one wrong Shooter. Most of my friends who have similar beliefs about the misrepresentation of the events of 911 are successful well rounded people with families they love. I have said before that I am an optimist and I'm not joking. I have always had a positive outlook on life and have enjoyed very good fortune thus far. I am not generally bitter but this is one issue in my life that continues to leave a bitter taste. I am not perfect, but far from insane (yet). I, and many others would just like a genuine independent investigation into this crime. If this is not important enough to validate one than what is? We want closure, not closed eyes.

And if there were an honest, thorough, unbiased investigation and the government somehow came out squeaky clean I would be the first to stand up to accept all of your "told you so" insults, name calling, pelting by rotten tomatoes, whatever. It's not like I want to be right on this issue.

Quote from: Proud_Poppa on September 17, 2010, 02:10:06 PM
At the possible cost of lengthening this thread I do have one question. Soon to follow. As near as i can see....no one on either side of this issue changed their mind. That seems to be the case these days on a lot of issues. Our country is extremely polarized it seems to me. Now here is my question:

Lets just say that you convinced everyone on this forum that our government is responsible for setting up 3000 people to die in 9/11 to stir the American public into supporting the invasion of the middle east so that a few rich guys/companies could go steal those poor peace loving Muslims oil. I think that's the general meat of your argument.

So.....now what?

Quite honestly....we could have a totally peaceful revolution in this country every 4 to 6 years....it's called VOTING. I wonder how many here actually vote. At any rate I DO VOTE....every chance I get. And I think it's safe to say that to my knowledge....unless it's some local county office.....that there is not one single person representing me in either the state or federal governments that I voted for.

So what is it you expect of me by "convincing" me of the evil of the USA?

Sorry I didn't get to comment on this earlier, PP.  Traveling this week.

Not just stealing oil and resources.  That may be an obvious motivation.  Consider how much corporations make off of the wars.  We bomb a country to smithereens, then issue contracts to large corporations to guard it, (Blackwater - Dyncorp - others )   We destroy massive amounts of weaponry making millions of dollars for companies our politicians and corporations are are invested in (Bush/BinLaden partners in Carlysle Group). 

The work for the most part never gets done and much is done in a shoddy manner blamed on security and other problems.  The taxpayers money still disappears blamed on one thing or another but nobody is ever held accountable.  The wars are simply a vehicle to transfer all money that can be begged, borrowed or stolen from the taxpayers into the pockets of the corporations, their investors and political stockholders as well.

We profit from both sides of the war as our soldiers die for corporate greed.  Paying off the Taliban is a common act.  We support the so called enemy who then takes the money and uses it against our soldiers.  Weapons are routinely "lost" to arm the other side for one reason or another - this is not accidental.

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/010778.php  I found this reference quickly but am actually referring to current events.  Major instances of this sort of thing.

We should vote - right.  Note that none of those offered are acceptable as those offered do not have the interest of the people in mind - just the interest they are directed to have - they are puppets and cannot solve anything for America.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/24/us/computer-voting-is-open-to-easy-fraud-experts-say.html

Search the subject for more of the same.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-obama-birth-certificate1dec08,0,7258812.story

Court won't review Obama's eligibility to serve

In the interest of space and time I have only supplied a couple of examples.  More research will reveal more of the same.

The entire system as well as it's checks and balances is broken.  I'm not offering solutions - just offering the facts and the reasons we want to watch out for ourselves, friends and families.

I love our country.  Dislike the criminals stealing it and if we won't hold them accountable then there is not a solution.  Apathy of the masses prevents fixing the problem.  Divide and conquer is done so well by our leadership.  I think that only when they create and are successful in their own fall as in Rome, can there be a new beginning.

QuoteI believe if one votes, after giving it some real thought, not being a sheeple in other words, it may just keep "them" off guard and concerned enough to watch what they do.

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/8/81178.html?1284653933

Emphasis mine.  Yes, they were caught.  It doesn't mean other instances (and you can search for more) didn't "slip by" or went unmentioned because it would be "too much for the public to handle, so we didn't report the crime- we're just promoting the greater good" type of thinking that happens behind closed doors.   Some things aren't meant to be private.

"FOUR KINDS OF INFORMATION ARE NEEDED TO AUTHENTICATE AN ELECTION:
1. Who can vote (the voter list)
2. Who did vote (the list of participating voters)
3. Were votes cast the real ones (chain of custody)
4. Was the counting accurate (public verification of the count)

Shelby County admitted that they installed an invalid voter list in Election Day electronic poll books, altering #1 (WHO CAN VOTE). The list said thousands of people could not vote because they had already voted, even though they had not voted.

Shelby County withheld the list of WHO DID VOTE (#2 ) until ordered by the court to produce it. When consultants analyzed the list of who did vote, they found names missing for 3,221 votes counted in the final certified results.

Shelby County computer logs show uploaded invisible data from 16 polling places the day before the polls opened. The premature uploads were done out of public view, and no testing procedure or work order record matches documents the uploads of invisible votes into the central tally machine, raising questions on WHETHER VOTES COUNTED WERE THE REAL ONES(#3).

#4, COUNTING OF THE VOTE: Shelby County declined to provide precinct results after the election and even after they certified the results; Elections Administrator Richard Holden stated in front of a court reporter on Aug. 16 that it was not possible to produce them, a misrepresentation to the court, but the inspection team discovered copies of precinct results reports sitting on Shelby County computers. The results had been there since Aug. 6. Shelby County precinct results ("Statement of Votes Cast" or "SOVC") do not match the list of participating voters."

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=12589&title=evidence-the-us-government-allowed-9-11-to-happen

Quote from: dug on September 18, 2010, 03:48:45 PM
And if there were an honest, thorough, unbiased investigation and the government somehow came out squeaky clean I would be the first to stand up to accept all of your "told you so" insults, name calling, pelting by rotten tomatoes, whatever. It's not like I want to be right on this issue.

The fact that this will never happen eliminates any need you might have to clean rotten tomatoes off your shoes. There will never be an honest investigation because all the evidence has been destroyed and all the reports have been altered. Remember those cell phone calls that where suposedly made from some of the planes on 9/11? If you look into it you will find that it never happened. This according to our own government who was pushing these stories at the time all this took place. The records have been scrubbed clean. All false information has been removed from official records and replaced with nothing. There was no evidence of explosives in the trade center debris because they never tested for explosives. When asked what Iraq had to do with 9/11, G.W. said "Nothing". It's kinda hard to investigate nothing.

QuoteThere was no evidence of explosives in the trade center debris because they never tested for explosives.

They sold most of it to China, and a few other countries for scrap, and did so fairly quickly.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Destruction_of_Evidence_from_Ground_Zero_at_the_World_Trade_Center

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Jan/25776.htm

 I think it is important to re-hash this every so often even if it seems futile so that younger ones who were not there at the time or were young are at least made aware of what went on, is going on and may continue to go on in the future.

Maybe guys like Pat Tillman wouldn't have had to be wasted if they did not mistakenly offer service for a just cause.  Our boys would not have had to snuff him.  Don't believe me?, ask his dad.

QuoteI think it is important to re-hash this every so often even if it seems futile so that younger ones who were not there at the time or were young are at least made aware of what went on, is going on and may continue to go on in the future.

Maybe guys like Pat Tillman wouldn't have had to be wasted if they did not mistakenly offer service for a just cause.  Our boys would not have had to snuff him.  Don't believe me?, ask his dad.
Posted on: September 19, 2010, 12:15:19 PM

The world needs more people like you Glenn, weather they like it or not.

I am at this time struggling with what and how much to tell my 11 and 13 yr old about the current state of affairs as I see it. It's a much different world than the one I grew up in.

I tell my kids what I see as the truth. But it's hard to know what the truth really is nowadays so I tell them that too.

I agree with Scott.  We should not hide reality from them in favor of lies.

I think it is important to try to teach the kids to look at everything and help them to be able to discern the crap from the evidence - the lies from reality (for whatever it is).  When there are so many impossible things - the lady standing in the middle of the "molten " window waving and yelling for help, the ID's in 30 minutes, the missing plane bodies and hardware - black boxes, the miraculous flights by non-pilots- the miracle passport that somehow survived the impact and explosions and got to the right investigator to report to us.....

I was just at my sons this last weekend.  We discussed much of the above.  An added bonus was meeting with a museum curator who was previously a psychological trainer in maximizing mental potential.

He is aware fully of the above conspiracy and was very excited to be able to talk to someone else educated in the goings on.  He said it is very hard to reach someone who does not want to think that our government has anything but our best interests at heart as the very thought of it is out of their comfort zone.  It is like their thought processes build a circle of safety around them and they will not allow themselves to even consider the possibility that it may be true that our government assisted such a cruel attack on the American people.  

It can in fact lead to a mental breakdown and is a protection they set up against that.  His training company was rather intensive in breaking down those barriers - I would call it another form of brainwashing almost.  He obviously knows what he is talking about.

The thought is so vile, so repulsive to them that everyone who thinks that thought must be labeled a conspiracy theorist as the government representative  (GWB) told them to do.  They cannot even entertain the thought and immediately fall back into the safety of believing the official story no matter how ridiculous and how far it goes against physics.

Until something gets through to them and gets them to wonder and start to work around their fears, revulsion and personal taboos set up as a safeguard by their minds, there is no way they can look.  They must deny everything that goes against their belief system and taboos.

In the meantime we will continue to discuss it at each opportunity and possibly some small event, some personal inconsistency may break through to them and open the way to sight - like Helen Keller - one small event and then the whole conspiracy will be open to see.

They will eventually have analyze what it is that is holding them back from looking - fear, personal taboos, thoughts that because they are authority figures they are good, guilt for voting for them, feeling they are partly responsibel and possibly partly to blame.  The system is purposely set up that way - it cuts down on dissent.  It is not their fault but they are made to feel that it is to stop them from even thinking there might be criminal action involved - hence approval for no investigation.

For those who don't already know, when I said we had to have assisted or let it happen, Sassy said  "No way and I will prove that you are wrong."

That was where she began to research and all evidence she could find pointed to me being right.  A sad outcome but true.  Now we use our knowledge to help ourselves and others to understand what is going on.  Not radical, but preparation to take care of ourselves and friends cannot hurt.  

Being a bit more prepared for anything that might come along is always better that having something happen and being caught off guard.  I hate getting caught with my pants down.... [waiting]

Quote from: dug on September 20, 2010, 03:46:21 PM

QuoteI think it is important to re-hash this every so often even if it seems futile so that younger ones who were not there at the time or were young are at least made aware of what went on, is going on and may continue to go on in the future.

Maybe guys like Pat Tillman wouldn't have had to be wasted if they did not mistakenly offer service for a just cause.  Our boys would not have had to snuff him.  Don't believe me?, ask his dad.
Posted on: September 19, 2010, 12:15:19 PM

The world needs more people like you Glenn, weather they like it or not.

I am at this time struggling with what and how much to tell my 11 and 13 yr old about the current state of affairs as I see it. It's a much different world than the one I grew up in.

...and - thanks Dug... I don't think I'll be winning any popularity contests but I don't really care.  :)

And if your Muslim (or anybody else) and question the official fable they unleash the media whores on you.


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/oreilly-attacks-imam-rauf-truther/

I've noticed that no one who believes the official reports has spoken-up about the past false flag operations conducted by our government. 

History repeats itself.

Retired NASA Engineer confronts the Official Conspiracy with science

http://www.vcreporter.com/cms/story/detail/faith_in_science/8213/

Good link Windpower. More honest to goodness facts.

I have a feeling I am only preaching to the choir at this point but I figure if even one person reconsiders the possibility that they have been lied to, then they might convince another to do the same. Might be worth it.

I don't think the debate should be who is right and who is wrong at this point, only that someone has a lot of explaining to do. The conspiracy myth busters attempt to explain how events with no historical precedence came to be. When they have to explain 4 or 5 such incidents (ones with no historical precedence) in a row eyebrows must be raised.

Here is a couple of statements from some insane radicals. There are thousands of similar ones.


Commander Ralph Kolstad, U.S. Navy (ret) – Retired fighter pilot.  Former Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (Topgun).  20-year Navy career.  Aircraft flown: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, and Grumman F-14 Tomcat.  Retired commercial airline captain with 27 years experience.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 727, 757 and 767, McDonnell Douglas MD-80, and Fokker F-100.  23,000+ total hours flown.
Statement to this website 8/20/07: "I started questioning the Sept 11, 2001 "story" only days after the event.  It just didn't make any sense to me.  How could a steel and concrete building collapse after being hit by a Boeing 767?  Didn't the engineers design it to withstand a direct hit from a Boeing 707, approximately the same size and weight of the 767?  The evidence just didn't add up. ...

At the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying.  I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757's and 767's and could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.

I was also a Navy fighter pilot and Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School and have experience flying low altitude, high speed aircraft.  I could not have done what these beginners did.  Something stinks to high heaven!

Where is the damage to the wall of the Pentagon from the wings?  Where are the big pieces that always break away in an accident?  Where is all the luggage?  Where are the miles and miles of wire, cable, and lines that are part and parcel of any large aircraft?  Where are the steel engine parts?  Where is the steel landing gear?  Where is the tail section that would have broken into large pieces?

I also personally knew American Airlines Captain "Chick" Burlingame, who was the captain of Flight 77 which allegedly hit the Pentagon, and I know he would not have given up his airplane to crazies!

And at the Shanksville Pennsylvania impact site, where is any of the wreckage?!!!  Of all the pictures I have seen, there is only a hole!  Where is any piece of a crashed airplane?  Why was the area cordoned off, and no inspection allowed by the normal accident personnel?  Where is any evidence at all?

When one starts using his own mind, and not what one was told, there is very little to believe in the official "story". ...

Every question leads to another question that has not been answered by anyone in authority. This is just the beginning as to why I don't believe the official "story" and why I want the truth to be told."




Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford, U.S. Marine Corps (ret) – Retired U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot with over 300 combat missions flown. Decorations include the Distinguished Flying Cross and 32 awards of the Air Medal. Aircraft flown: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, Lockheed C-130H Hercules. 10,000+ total hours flown. 20-year Marine Corps career.
Article Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11 1/14/08:

"September 11, 2001 seems destined to be the  watershed event of our lives and the greatest test for our democracy in our lifetimes.  The evidence of government complicity in the lead-up to the events, the failure to respond during the event, and the  astounding lack of any meaningful investigation afterwards, as well as the ignoring of evidence turned up by others that renders the official explanation impossible, may signal the end of the American experiment.  It has been used to justify all manners of measures to legalize repression at home and as a pretext for behaving as an aggressive empire abroad.  Until we demand an independent, honest, and thorough investigation and accountability for those whose action and inaction led to those events and the cover-up, our republic and our Constitution remain in the gravest danger." http://www.opednews.com


Statement to this website 2/20/07:

"This isn't about party, it isn't about Bush Bashing. It's about our country, our constitution, and our future. ...

Your countrymen have been murdered and the more you delve into it the more it looks as though they were murdered by our government, who used it as an excuse to murder other people thousands of miles away.

If you ridicule others who have sincere doubts and who know factual information that directly contradicts the official report and who want explanations from those who hold the keys to our government, and have motive, means, and opportunity to pull off a 9/11, but you are too lazy or fearful, or ... to check into the facts yourself, what does that make you? Scholars for 9/11 truth have developed reams of scientific data. Michael Ruppert published an exhaustive account of the case from the viewpoint of a trained investigator. David Ray Griffin provides a context for the unanswered or badly answered questions that should nag at anyone who pretends to love this country.

Are you afraid that you will learn the truth and you can't handle it? ...

Do a little research. Google is a wonderful tool.

What does it all add up to? The Commission was, as was the Warren Commission before it, a dog and pony show ... "

Preaching to the choir, maybe, Dug, but as choir members get older they need to look at the words of the hymn, and as new young members join the choir they also need to learn the words of the hymn, lest the true words of the hymn are lost into obscurity, and no one remembers or takes an interest in the true words in the future.

9/11 let's hope we never forget the lies that caused the deaths of our countrymen and that the true perpetrators are exposed, even if it is after their deaths just as most of the false flag ops in the past have been.  Those that wield power don't relinquish it easily.  That is the problem as they also have the power of death to possible whistle blowers.  Lots of possible informers have died over this.

http://www.baltimoregrassrootsmedia.org/files/7cc00d148ba75ba49a187cb0182ba7c2-98.html

http://dead911whistleblowers.blogspot.com/2010/03/dead-911-whistleblowers.html  Partial Name list

http://digg.com/news/world_news/9_11_Whistleblower_Poisoned_Dies

That is for starters - much more if anyone cares to look.

There are hundreds of eyewitnesses to the plane that hit the Pentagon (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html).  It is just silly to insist it was not hit by a commercial airliner.

QuoteThere are hundreds of eyewitnesses to the plane that hit the Pentagon.  It is just silly to insist it was not hit by a commercial airliner.

O.K., let's assume it was hit by a plane, I'm not saying it wasn't. What about this statement-

QuoteAt the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying.  I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757's and 767's and could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.

- and the hundreds of similar ones from career pilots who have actually flown the plane in question?

 Fancy that! Eye witnesses? Who'd a thunk of that?  


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.32.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.32.html)


... don't know why I bother.....

http://criticalthrash.com/terror/identification.html (http://criticalthrash.com/terror/identification.html)

I'll take part of that one, Don.

Keep in mind that the media is owned by about 6 Corporations who are indebted to big government and big business and that CNN is known in many circles as the Counterfeit News Network but, continuing on to an investigation of their story...their Eyewitness....

http://bogusstory.com/conflictingwitnesses.html

One of the quoted liars in the evidence for the gov, Timmerman is caught in his lies.  Check out the debunking of the debunkers.

QuoteIf we shift it closer, his detailed description in such a short time becomes impossible. Of course, he may not have noticed the poles being clipped off in the moment, but it's difficult to believe that he hadn't noticed anything 3 hours later, especially as he was specifically asked about them. And he doesn't say anything to the effect that "All the poles I can see are still standing" He denies any knowledge, strongly implying that all relevant poles are hidden from his view. If they are, then he can't have seen the crash.

This is the statement which seals the fate of this account.

"That may have happened behind the apartments that occluded my view"

Note the use of the past tense. They occluded my view but they don't anymore. The complex analysis has been done. Now lets look at it very simply and succinctly. From his apartment, Timmerman looks north east, possibly close to due east to the helipad. According to most of the interview, he has a clear view of the west wall. The plane allegedly flew north east or possibly almost due east towards the helipad from an area very close to Timmerman's apartment. So what was in the background of Timmerman's sight as the plane flew from the Navy Annex to the helipad? The west wall of the pentagon of course. Apparently not. A block of apartments which isn't normally there miraculously sprang up and occluded his view, but had disappeared again by the time of the interview.

This account is impossible to believe.

Once again it is necessary to dig into the official lies and their backup stories.  The veil gets very thin upon critical examination.

More distractions. It doesn't matter what hit the pentagon. What matters is who caused it. I'm sorry if I have a hard time beliving the most advanced military on the planet had no clue when the capital of the country was under attack. If it was that easy someone would have done it a long time ago. Someone told air defence to stand down. That's the only answer that makes any sense.

Back when all this happened G.W. said that no one ever expected something like this to happen so they just wheren't prepared for it. Later it was reported on the TV news that they where running a drill that same day for this exact thing. So who's lying? You expect me to belive the president was not informed of the drill?

Quote from: dug on September 21, 2010, 01:56:19 PM

QuoteThere are hundreds of eyewitnesses to the plane that hit the Pentagon.  It is just silly to insist it was not hit by a commercial airliner.

O.K., let's assume it was hit by a plane, I'm not saying it wasn't. What about this statement-

QuoteAt the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying.  I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757's and 767's and could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.

- and the hundreds of similar ones from career pilots who have actually flown the plane in question?

We can conclude that these career pilots were not eyewitnesses.

QuoteWe can conclude that these career pilots were not eyewitnesses.

Apparently the speed and flight path of the aircrafts are well known, and the pilots do not have to witness the flight to know what maneuvers would have been necessary to make that run.

Again, the dispute is not of the eye witnesses but of who, or what was controlling whatever aircraft(s) involved. A beginner pilot who trained on a Cessna? Most experts think not.

QuoteThere are hundreds of eyewitnesses to the plane that hit the Pentagon.  It is just silly to insist it was not hit by a commercial airliner.

What's even more silly is here we have the icon of the U.S. gov't defense establishment and there is only one very poor quality tape released, which shows something streaking across the lawn of the Pentagon. Nowhere in the video is a plane clearly visible. In fact the object is either moving way to fast to be videoed or the video has been doctored. The Pentagon has numerous camera's attached to it and external of it and there is not one decent image  ??? Also after it became apparent that the attacks at the World Trader Center was the result of terrorist, (official story feed to sheeple), why wasn't the air defense system for the Pentagon activated? Never mind the National Air Defense and Strategic Air Command?

QuoteFancy that! Eye witnesses? Who'd a thunk of that? 

If we are going to believe and use eyewitnesses as reliable sources then there are many, many people who reported hearing bombs going off at WTC 1 and 2. Numerous firemen reported the same thing and even reported that the lobby of the towers had been wiped out by explosives after witnessing numerous mangled and dead bodies and building destruction. Alex Rodriguez the famous janitor who helped people out of the towers, also reports massive explosions and strange noises from the sub-levels of the twin towers. These explosions where so powerful that it  sent people and furniture flying, even though they were many floors above the explosions. Initial reports of that morning reported that it was a Cessna or small business jet that hit the towers because of fog. Now we all know from the pictures of that day that there was no fog and in fact weather wise it was a bluebird day. Also firsthand eye witness reports said that the Pentagon had collapsed, when only a small section of one wall collapsed. Much misdirection began that morning and continues.

Quote... don't know why I bother.....

Because you can't wrap your mind around the idea that *your* government could be involved in a plan that resulted in the initial deaths of a few thousand of it's own citizens. Then used it's citizen's sense of false patriotism to murder  hundred of thousands of Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghani's, not to mention sacrifice thousands of it's own troops, spend trillions of dollars on military equipment and nation building while setting up many military bases in the middle east and central Asia.

The willingness to leap from "could be" to "must be" demonstrates a credulity that I find distressing.  Some people insist that when they hear hoofbeats, it must be zebras.  I have higher standards of proof before I surrender my power of reason.

The willingness to accept all credible accounts supporting one side of an issue while ignoring all credible accounts that challenge it is what I find distressing. It defies logic.

The accounts positing a government conspiracy are founded of a tissue of suppositions that don't even rise to the level of circumstantial evidence.  They begin with a conclusion, that the government is trying to kill us, and string together reams of what-ifs and call it proof.   Logic has nothing to do with it.

Not trying to kill us, Pox.

Manufacturing consent to attack semi-defenseless oil rich countries and using the deception as a tool for approval to transfer billions of tax dollars over to the private sector - the military industrial complex is in control.

By keeping the sheeple clueless and scared there is no resistance to anything they might want to do anywhere they might want to do it.


The perpetrators thought the sacrifice of any innocent citizens who became collateral damage was inconsequential in their quest to have the "New Pearl Harbor" as prescribed by the PNAC.  

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Project_for_the_New_American_Century

QuoteAccording to the PNAC report, "The American peace has proven itself peaceful, stable, and durable. Yet no moment in international politics can be frozen in time: even a global Pax Americana  will not preserve itself." To preserve this "American peace" through the 21st century, the PNAC report concludes that the global order "must have a secure foundation on unquestioned U.S. military preeminence." The report struck a prescient note when it observed that "the process of transformation is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event--like a new Pearl Harbor."

Pox, the event was assisted or allowed to happen and the evidence points to an inside job.  Not the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc7i0wCFf8g  GHWB NWO

It is obvious that there is no change between Obama and the Bush Cabal..... Business continues as usual no matter which side is in power.

QuoteThe accounts positing a government conspiracy are founded of a tissue of suppositions that don't even rise to the level of circumstantial evidence.  They begin with a conclusion, that the government is trying to kill us, and string together reams of what-ifs and call it proof.   Logic has nothing to do with it.

It may have developed into a conclusion, but that is not how it began. It began with reasonable people  who questioned a lot of things that seemed hard to swallow.

Logic has much to do with it, as does emotion which often interferes with ones ability to see things as they are.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 21, 2010, 10:18:21 PM

Not trying to kill us, Pox.

Manufacturing consent to attack semi-defenseless oil rich countries and using the deception as a tool for approval to transfer billions of tax dollars over to the private sector - the military industrial complex is in control.

Uh huh.  And which countries were they trying to foment war with by creating the illusion that 18 Saudis and 1 UAR national flew four planes into US targets?  Did we subsequently attack Saudi Arabia or the UAR?  You would think the cover story would include hijackers that were from the countries you wanted to go to war with, wouldn't you?  This conspiracy doesn't stand up to even the slightest investigation.

To the contrary.  They were smart enough to manufacture consent for  a war against a concept.  The war on "Terror".  They left themselves free to go after any country anywhere simply by starting and reinforcing rumors demonizing any country or group of people in a country that they wanted to.  Yell terrorist loud enough and the sheeple approve or at least will go along for the ride.

The Taliban were wanting too much money for the proposed Unocal pipeline - talks to negotiate it had failed and the oil people said they needed a stable government there to deal with.  First order of the day there.

The Iraq attacks and occupation had long been planned before 9/11.  All that was needed was the vehicle - the war on terror.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdlUi8-9TMU

We have become the worlds greatest terrorist organization dealing undeserved death thoughout the world and wasting the lives of our servicemen for big business, wealth for the elite, greed and power.

Well said, Glenn !

Pox Eclipse (or anyone else who has a similar thought pattern),

Do you accept the fact that our government/military has committed false flag attacks against us in the past?

Depends what you mean by "attacks against us".   Do you have specific examples, cases?

there has certainly been plans for it.

Operation Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

QuoteOperation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false-flag operation plan that originated within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other operatives to commit genuine acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro. One part of the Operation Northwoods plan was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington."

Operation Northwoods included proposals for hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. The plan stated:

    "The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere."

Several other proposals were included within the Operation Northwoods plan, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted and the proposals included in the plan were never executed.

Aside from that, the concept itself is not very novel. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

Quote
In the 1931 Mukden incident, Japanese officers fabricated a pretext for annexing Manchuria by blowing up a section of railway. Six years later they falsely claimed the kidnapping of one of their soldiers in the Marco Polo Bridge Incident as an excuse to invade China proper.

In the Gleiwitz incident in August 1939, Reinhard Heydrich made use of fabricated evidence of a Polish attack against Germany to mobilize German public opinion and to fabricate a false justification for a war with Poland. This, along with other false flag operations in Operation Himmler, would be used to mobilize support from the German population for the start of World War II in Europe.

On November 26, 1939, the Soviet Union shelled the Russian village of Mainila near the Finnish border. The Soviet Union attacked Finland four days afterwards, claiming the shelling to have been a Finnish military action. Russia has agreed that the attack was initiated by the Soviets.[6] Also, the nearest Finnish artillery pieces were well out of range of Mainila.[7]

In 1953, the U.S. and British-orchestrated Operation Ajax used "false-flag" and propaganda operations against the formerly democratically elected leader of Iran, Mohammed Mosaddeq. Information regarding the CIA-sponsored coup d'etat has been largely declassified and is available in the CIA archives.[8]

In 1954, the Military Intelligence Directorate of Israel launched a series of bombings against targets in Cairo which had British and American financial interests, in the hopes of alienating the U.S. and Britain from Egypt.[9] Codenamed Operation Suzannah, it was later dubbed the Lavon Affair, after Israeli Defense Minister Pinchas Lavon. Lavon and Israeli Military Intelligence head Binyamin Gibli had planned and carried out the operation in secret, and without telling Prime Minister Moshe Sharett in advance. Lavon and Gibli both lost their jobs as a result. Israel (where it is known as "The Unfortunate Affair") finally admitted responsibility in 2005.[10]

Former GRU officer Aleksey Galkin,[11] former FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko[12] and others have stated that the 1999 Russian apartment bombings that precipitated the Second Chechen War were false flag operations perpetrated by the FSB. Galkin has since recanted his accusation, which was made while prisoner of Chechen rebels.[citation needed]

There is nothing new under the sun.  The system works as designed.  While people are seeing the system that surrounds them, they should also accept that the same system has always been present. 

Don - you ask for specific examples, does the war on drugs count?
I personally acknowledge the sinking of the lucitania as a false flag. 
I dont know so much about the others. 

Aside from that, take a look at this (obviously biased) list.  http://911review.com/articles/anon/false_flag_perations.html

Gulf of Tonkin

Lavon affair

SS Liberty

Sinking of the Maine

Tonkin: Aug 2 happened, Aug 4 was false and the resulting act of congress was wrong

Lavon: wasn't that an act of Israel?

Liberty: No.

The Maine: Many now think it was a result of spontaneous combustion in one of the coal holds; possibly a bomb but nothing can be said for sure.

I don't understand the no on the liberty, Don - you mean it was not a false flag?  Or that Israel did it and government was not involved?

Here are some of the later facts on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVR6_7BNyEI

Positively done by Israeli's with our knowledge.  Johnson ordered that it be allowed to happen and recalled the support planes.

It was another covert buddy deal similar to the WTC/9-11

"Lavon: wasn't that an act of Israel?"


Yes it was

made to look like an Arab terrorist event

Quote from: Windpower on September 22, 2010, 10:55:04 PM
"Lavon: wasn't that an act of Israel?"

Yes it was

made to look like an Arab terrorist event

No argument on that. Israeli, not USA. Not everything that Israel does has an American connection. My response was made with specific reference to the queation that was posed... "Do you accept the fact that our government/military has committed false flag attacks against us in the past?"

There was no false flag nonsense involved with the Lusitania.

Kapitänleutnant Walther Schwieger fired a single torpedo from his U-20 and it hit the Lusitania. There was a subsequent explosion that was originally thought to be one or two additional torpedos. However, Schweiger's diary indicates he fired one. It is argued that either munitions on board the Lusitania or possibly a coal dust explosion. In 2008 divers found millions of Remington .303 ammunition in the wreck as proof that munitions were on board. Munitions were not supposed to be on board, or rather I think it was that it was illegal for US citizens to be on a ship carrying munitions. I may have that part mixed up. Anyhow the second explosion is was caused the ship to sink rapidly. The event did sowthe seeds of American animosity towards Germany. It still took almost two years for the USA to declare war though.

Except as I recall it was specifically set up to get the Germans to blow it up.  The Germans in fact took out ads in the US warning civilians not to get on the Lusitania because they would down it.

False flag in that we knew what would happen and set it up to happen.

Quote
The Lusitania: A classic example of war profiteering

What are the top reasons for war? At first thought, imperial governments or self-defense may come to mind. The truth is most wars are ultimately about money, oil, and power. To prevent and end war, peacemakers need to understand the money system that war-profiteers use to make a "killing."

The same "banksters" or money trust that designed the Federal Reserve have for over two centuries profited from war. Senator Louis McFadden (1876-1936) documented direct involvement in wars in the 19th century. The list of 20th century involvement in promoting wars is long and includes the Lusitania operation in World War I, funding both Germany and England during WW II, helping to create the conditions for the Korean War in 1953 (Korea was intentionally divided in 1945), and beating the drums for war in Vietnam just to name a few. For dozens of current examples on how war debt is driven up by corporations such as Halliburton, see the documentary Iraq for Sale.

Should it be a surprise to anyone that international bankers scheme to profit from wars?

The cycle of debt often starts with selling weapons. Governments go in debt to buy weapons. The weapons manufacturers make money on the sale and the bankers profit from interest on the weapons-generated debt. The weapon sales accelerate if the weapons buyer, usually a government, is faced with a perceived or real threat. The country that buys the most weapons is the U.S. (total weapons purchases exceed the combined sum of all other nations). Not surprisingly, government officials, paid experts (often former government officials), and corporate owned media promote calls for war as agents of this agenda to drive up U.S. debt.

Bankers profit from wars

President George Washington and other founders of our country had first-hand experience with how banking families in Europe bankrolled military actions for their personal gain. In his farewell address on September 17, 1796 George Washington warned Americans to be on guard against alliances with Europe. The history of how bankers have started and continued wars is painfully long. We need only look at past wars, to see a trail of blood money. In the Middle Ages the Knights Templars, most known as a military arm for expanding Christianity, performed the role as a private central bank for the Crusades. Relatively few Knights Templars were soldiers and most members worked in their banking business.

The Knights Templars and other financiers of war are not representative of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, or Hinduism. The financiers of war are international and value money more than human life. The Rothschild banking dynasty is highlighted in this article because they became the leading banking force as a result of Wellington's war with Napolean, have profited from numerous conflicts, and led the creation of the Federal Reserve.1 Their involvement in World War I is a classic example of war profiteering.

How World War I started

As with most wars, World War I started many years before the first shot was fired. In 1870, the Franco-Prussian War resulted in France's defeat by Germany. After the war, the triple alliance was formed consisting of Germany, Austro-Hungary and Italy. Another factor was the policy of Weltpolitic or the global imperial policy of Kaiser Wilhelm the Second. The Moroccan crisis of 1905 to 1911 also was a factor leading to World War I. There were additional wars that involved Serbia and led to increased tension with Austria.

On June 28, 1914, the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, was assassinated in Sarajevo. The Black Hand Serbian secret society, with connections to powerful English and French intelligence, took credit. World War I had begun. France, England and Austria took on the war debt. While many paid the price with at least 20 million killed, war profiteers made a financial killing.

Historians still debate the causes of World War I. This is to be expected, as the perspective of the victor is different than that of the vanquished. Furthermore, bankers seek to have their roles downplayed or outright dismissed. To distort the truth, governments and wealthy private interests have a vested interest in funding historians to promote a favorable version of history.

President Woodrow Wilson claimed the main cause of World War I was the wealthy had too much control over Germany, Russia and Austria. Lenin went on record that the banking merchants orchestrated the war.2 We now know that at least at this high level, both Wilson and Lenin were correct. Financial interests, cloaked in good intentions and nationalism, fueled World War I.

False flag operation Lusitania

How did the United States get pulled into World War I? Citizens of the U.S. were successfully fooled to enter the war in 1917 by a series of cleverly orchestrated efforts. President Woodrow Wilson was directly involved in the deceptions and formally sanctioned the U.S. participation in the war in a secret agreement with England on March 9, 1916. We know about this agreement today because the agreement was leaked and confirmed by Sir Edward Grey, Ambassador Walter Hines Page, C. Hartley Grattan, and Colonel Edward Mandell House.

The focus of this article is on the centerpiece of the pro-war propaganda which preceded the 1916 secret agreement and involved sinking a passenger ship named the Lusitania.

Winston Churchill and Woodrow Wilson, in an operation financed by the major banking houses, arranged for the shipment of weapons on the Lusitania in May of 1915. The Lusitania luxury ocean liner was owned by the Cunard Steamship Line Shipping Company and officially part of the British auxiliary navy. The ship's owners were paid £218,000 a year (£150,000 for reserve military service and £68,000 to carry Royal mail). As an auxiliary naval ship, the Lusitania was under orders from the British Admiralty to ram any German ship seeking to inspect her cargo. In 1915, it was against U.S. law to put weapons on a passenger ship traveling to England or Germany.

Three German spies attempted to confirm that the 90 tons of unrefrigerated butter destined for a British naval base were weapons and ammunition.3  The spies were detained on the ship. The weapons loaded on the Lusitania were seen by the German dock workers and reported to the German embassy. To warn Americans about the weapons shipment, the Imperial German Embassy attempted to place an advertisement in 50 East Coast newspapers. The ads were printed with a date of April 22, 1915, but the US State Department blocked all the ads except one. George Viereck, the man who placed the ads for the embassy, protested to the State Department on April 26 that the ads were blocked. Viereck met with Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan and produced copies of the Lusitania's supplementary manifests. Bryan, impressed by the evidence that the Lusitania had carried weapons, cleared publication of the warning. Someone higher than the Secretary of State, likely Colonel House and President Wilson, overruled Bryan. Nonetheless one ad slipped past the State Department censorship. The single that slipped past the government censors appeared in the Des Moines Register (and is shown on the left).

The warning read: "NOTICE! Travellers intending to embark on the Atlantic voyage are reminded that a state of war exists between Germany and her allies and Great Britain and her allies; that the zone of war includes the waters adjacent to the British Isles; that, in accordance with formal notice given by the Imperial German Government, vessels flying the flag of Great Britain, or any of her allies, are liable to destruction in those waters and that travellers sailing in the war zone on ships of Great Britain or her allies do so at their own risk. IMPERIAL GERMAN EMBASSY WASHINGTON, D.C., APRIL 22, 1915."

More where that came from

http://www.teachpeace.com/teachpeacemoment9.htm

Once again - while not totally done by us, our government assisted for greed and monetary interests.  Once again the American people are tricked for fun, profit, and power.  Not totally our doings but our government chose to participate rather than stop it.... then the blood began to flow...

Another interesting tidbit from the above article

QuoteThe 1915 Lusitania leads to war being declared in 1917

Berlin announced on January 31, 1917 that its submarines would sink all ships aiding Britain. The Berlin announcement, combined with the previous Lusitania sinking, was still not enough for America to enter the war. The British Intelligence service manufactured another bombshell in the form of a telegram from German Foreign Minister Arthur Zimmerman to the German Minister to Mexico. The telegram, presented to Woodrow Wilson on February 24, 1917, offered Mexico money to attack the U.S. The numerous British propaganda campaigns ultimately proved successful and on April 6, 1917 the U.S. did declare war on Germany. This technique was used as recently as 2002, when a British intelligence report20 helped fool Americans that Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction.

Whether 'false flag' actions happened in the past has no bearing on the whether 9/11 was a government plot.  Your standards of evidence are laughable, it all boils down to "It Coulda Happened!".

It shows a pattern of deceit.  I always consider past actions when deciding who to trust in a long term relationship. 

Looks like it would be a good idea if others looked at that too.  Maybe they would not be fooled as easily.

Quote from: Pox Eclipse on September 23, 2010, 05:47:06 AM
Whether 'false flag' actions happened in the past has no bearing on the whether 9/11 was a government plot.  Your standards of evidence are laughable, it all boils down to "It Coulda Happened!".

So you agree that false flag operations have been conducted by the United States and its allies in the past? If so would you agree that past actions can be an indicator of future behavior, and if that is the case then there is at least the possibility that the United States either had prior knowledge of the attacks on 9/11 or at the worst facilitated them?

I'll be the first to admit that I do not know what happened on 9/11. However I do know that the government's official story of the events is not what happened. The official 9/11 report doesn't even mention the building 7 collapse.

Much like the questions surrounding Obama's citizenship or whether the average citizen is required to pay income taxes there are enough holes in the stories to warrant looking into it. On any of these subjects if the questions being asked were actually being answered by the government I'd be happy! But it appears that the government either classifies the information for no reason, refuses to answer, or jails the questioners I'll continue to be highly skeptical...thank you very much!

Patterns can be important, but when one moves from personal relations to corporate or government entities I believe there is a difference. First let me state that a certain amount of wariness and monitoring should always be exercised when dealing with corporations and governments.

However, the loss of trust created by a cheating spouse, for example, is not necessarily the same as a loss of trust created by a failure in a business or governmental relationship. The people who are directing the corporations and governments can be and are replaced. Sure, we don't know if the replacements are any more trustworthy so that's why we the people should be watching.

Maybe an example will help with clarity. Just because 8 people from the mayor of Bell, CA down have been arrested for fraudulent dealings within the city government there does not mean that all mayors and police chiefs are guilty of the same thing.

Or another local example, the department head of a city vehicle maintenance garage was caught buying parts with city purchase orders and selling them on Craigslist for personal profit. That doesn't automatically make any head of any other department guilty of anything.

What about false flag operations by non allies? Lots of those too. Not to say that it's okay to engage in that behavior just because somebody else did it too. I think we can all agree that the world would be a better place if such things were not to ever happen. But we have a world full of people with flaws.  :-\

QuoteInsert Quote
Whether 'false flag' actions happened in the past has no bearing on the whether 9/11 was a government plot.

Certainly not evidence, but it demonstrates historical precedence.

QuoteYour standards of evidence are laughable

In this thread alone you have been provided with reams of valid information relating to the events of 911. Many of the contributors are physicists, architects, metallurgists, military and commercial pilots, military commanders, governments officials, etc. Several are among the leaders in their field. Many pieces of evidence, supported by facts that challenge the official report have been revealed, yet they are ignored by our government (and you) who refuse to even acknowledge them.

Quote"It Coulda Happened!".

That's what I think when I hear the official line.

Some Muslims with box knives hijack 4 commercial flights. Some of their flight instructors state they were very poor pilots, barely Qualified to fly a small lane, yet they perform maneuvers that jet fighters and career pilots say were barely within the limits of the aircraft in question (some say not at all) and that an experienced ace pilot would be hard pressed to pull off. 4 of the hijackers are confirmed alive and well, ignored and unexplained by the government. The plane that failed on it's alleged mission created nothing but a hole in the ground that displayed nothing resembling a commercial airliner crash (no historical precedence). The towers come down at near free fall speed into their own footprint (no historical precedence). Building 7 does the same, though nothing hit it. Almost zero wreckage found from the crash into the pentagon. Full fledged war on terror in less than a month, with vows from president Bush to hunt down Bin Laden and make him answer for these acts of terror. Bin Laden is never found, and soon forgotten. Then Iraq, with their weapons of mass destruction, which were never found, and also soon forgotten. The saga continues, as our government tells us, without a foreseeable ending.

Well, I guess it could of happened.

It is the official version that has no proof to back it, other than our government saying "that's the way it happened"

I would like to see some hard evidence and facts supporting the official story from the majority out there who support it.

Quote from: dug on September 23, 2010, 10:51:00 AM

It is the official version that has no proof to back it, other than our government saying "that's the way it happened"

Only if you reject all the physical evidence, and testimony by experts.  If you approach every question with the presumption that everything the government says is a lie, then it can never be proven to your satisfaction.  I don't blindly swallow everything they put out, but I can evaluate information from many sources, and come to a rational conclusion that fits the preponderance of evidence.   Is it possible I am wrong? Of course.  But it is equally possible you are wrong.  No explanation accounts for all of the millions of details, but the perfect is not the enemy of the good, and rational people can be as sure as is humanly possible without being an eyewitness to all that transpired.  I refuse to be haunted by unknowable "what ifs?"  when the available evidence raises reasonable doubt that they actually occured.

Pox, I can agree with a lot of your last post. All I'm saying is that there is plenty of physical evidence and testimony by experts opposing the official verdict to demand a complete independent investigation with everything on the table. As Scott said, it will never happen which is most likely true. How could you oppose that?

It is irrational to accept expert testimonies backing one side and reject all opposing expert testimonies.

Here is an article from the Salem news about John Farmer, the man who drafted the Official 9/11 report, and his book where he says the 9/11 report was based on government lies:

QuoteFarmer states..."at some level of the government, at some point in time...there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened... I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described .... The [Norad air defense] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. This is not spin."

and of course the link:  http://www.salem-news.com/articles/september112009/911_truth_9-11-09.php (http://www.salem-news.com/articles/september112009/911_truth_9-11-09.php)

Once again: Your Government Lies to YOU!!!!!

I don't know about anyone else here, but if I am lied to, I don't tend to trust the liars on other subjects....

 w*

At least one of the C.I.A.'s "Osama's" has confessed: ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhctMpvszqQ

The actions of the U.S. in the aftermath of 9-11 is just a big joke, even the ex-President thought so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh4U-Tbqbx4&feature=related

Interesting - a tape of them showing they were along for the ride and taken candidly apparently.

The second video shows that our government has no problem lying straight faced to the citizens and then joking about it.  Everyone knew at the time the war was based on lies yet few disagreed with it.  Oh yeah - Pat Tillman thought he would come back and speak out about it so we put a hit on him...

Some are not afraid to speak up about what the evidence indicates.  Read the comments for a view from the rest of the world if you like.

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/234437

I agree with the assessment that the guilty parties could only walk out because they could not defend their crimes.

I do not see him as hero or enemy but I do see him and his country as being the current victim of western demonization.  I do see our country propaganda machine trying to take them down to the level of dogs in order to get the sheeples support for blowing up their country. 

The only thing stopping us is that he and his country may just be strong enough to fight back and give us a serious bloody nose.

QuoteAn American Police State was inevitable once Americans let "their" government get away with 9/11.

Americans are too gullible, too uneducated, and too jingoistic to remain a free people.  As another Nazi leader—Herman Goering—said, "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. Tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace-makers for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger."

This is precisely what the Bush and Obama regimes have done.

America, as people of my generation knew it, no longer exists.

The entire article regarding FBI etc. harassing peace activists who have committed no crime.  So much for American Freedom of speech.

http://vdare.com/roberts/100924_police_state.htm

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury during President Reagan's first term.  He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal.  He has held numerous academic appointments, including the William E. Simon Chair, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Georgetown University, and Senior Research Fellow, Hoover Institution, Stanford University. He was awarded the Legion of Honor by French President Francois Mitterrand. He is the author of     Supply-Side Revolution : An Insider's Account of Policymaking in Washington;  Alienation and the Soviet Economy  and    Meltdown: Inside the Soviet Economy, and is the co-author with Lawrence M. Stratton of     The Tyranny of Good Intentions : How Prosecutors and Bureaucrats Are Trampling the Constitution in the Name of Justice.



Note:  Paul Craig Roberts a short time ago was so frustrated with the apathy of the American people, he quit writing.  I emailed him and asked if he was doing any private mailing list - letters etc.  At that time he replied to me he was not.

Good to see him begin trying to get through to the people again.   Good to see a former politician that makes some sense.  Glenn

Glenn, I consider Paul Craig Roberts a Statesman not a politician. We have plenty of politicians already and not enough Statesman. Here are some of Red Beckman's thoughts on the subject:

   1. A Statesman loves the Constitution.
      A Politician hates the Constitution.
   2. A Statesman enforces the Constitution.
      A Politician violates the Constitution.
   3. A Statesman uses truth to keep power in the hands of the people.
      A Politician uses lies to gain power over the people.
   4. A Statesman's primary concern is to secure freedom for future generations.
      A Politician's primary concern is to get elected or re-elected.

Plus six more-

   1. Statesman will not play politics with the people's money.
      A Politician will buy votes with tax money.
   2. A Statesman knows the people must control government.
      A Politician believes that government should control people.
   3. A Statesman knows the people must limit government's power to tax.
      A Politician believes government should have unlimited power to tax.
   4. A Statesman gives his allegiance to the people and country.
      A Politician gives his allegiance to government.
   5. A Statesman will demand a balanced budget.
      A Politician will spend money stolen from future generations(deficit spending).
   6. A Statesman will cause peace.
      A Politician will cause wars.

I have to agree with you on that Shawn.  You classified him much better than I did.  I have read a lot of his writings over the years and can't recall ever hearing him say anything I disagreed with and he always seemed to tell it like it is.

I read another article regarding Ahmadinejad's statement and a clarification from him.  He thinks it is time for the UN to open an investigation into 9/11 as many of the rest of us do.  I have no problem with them opening an unbiased, uncensored, unowned, uninfluenced independent outside investigation.  That is all any of the ones asking for an investigation want.  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/8024377/Irans-Ahmadinejad-proposes-nuclear-deal-defends-911-comments.html

Not likely it will happen though as the NWO people have things going their way, as they dismantle the US on piece at a time.