Its about 2 months away. :-X
You're rushing it a little. Let's get thru Halloween and Thanksgiving first.
What's on your Christmas Wish List?
The season for retailers is now starting at Halloween. (Used to be Thanksgiving)
Friends of mine with a store had their Christmas tree up just before Halloween. I asked them why they didn't do Halloween decorations. One of them explained gently that the Christmas tree was their Halloween decoration. After all it was scary enough. :-/
Darn it, Stink -- you are going to get me into the Pagan origins of the Religious holidays. Usually I only pick on Sassy with that one. :)
Then of course the real reason for the season, shop until you drop-- the commercial aspect. ;D
That should get the discussion going. :-/
Humbug!!
I should probably sit back and shut up. ;D
Funny thing is I prefer Thanksgiving out of all the man made holidays.
Christmas is way to commercialized.
I hate Christmas
Well I hate spending money just for the sake of it...
I never do without all year long and neither does my wife..If we need something we buy it...We treat each other to trips and meals and gifts all year long...I find it sickening that people are nicer during the holidays and they spew forth some bs garbage message about jesus is the reason for the Season.... Well where the hell was jesus in your life the rest of the year...
Why would we only treat our fellow man decently for a few weeks of the year?
Respect and fellowship among men is not something to bandy about and to take lightly...It is not something we can use flippantly at our convenience to feel good about ourselves...
That said my wife and I talked and we agreed no gifts...we are going to spend a little money and buy a newer car in the near future... my wife wants a Jetta TDI wagon.... they are very expensive though...hard to find used...We may have to settle for something else... but she is getting tired of driving 20 year old cars I buy for a couple hundred bucks...
so santa is bringing a car for the wife on the sled this year
So Peter what do you have in mind as likely choices? Curious.
Don
Has to be cheap
But the wife is tired of $200 cars.... Seriously that is all she has had for the last three years... I get one.. work on it a few hours get it running for her and she drives it for a few months starts to complain I sell it for $1000-$1500 and get her another one...
Usually cavaliers, corsicas, she has had a nissan sentra.. she is driving a Volvo right now... 86 240 DL... I usually look for cars with head gaskets gone or needing a transmission...Nobody will fix a older car needing a tranny...I can get them dirt cheap and fix them in half a day.
She can drive my Saturn while I find her something a little nicer...She used to like Saturns and now she wants a Honda Element or a Jetta Wagon... Holy crap she thinks I am made of money here!
But I want to get her something a little nicer... I looked at a 2001 Mazda protoge which is a 323 basically.. it was low mileage..I could not come to a deal with the guy and it sold the next day when I went back for it...
I like Hondas, dislike Toyotas...But both cars are overpriced... My mother in law has a new Scion hatchback thingy.. it is small and it only gives 37 miles to the gallon... Which is sad considering the thing is tiny and it is gutless to boot... why the mediocre mileage?
Gas mileage is a concern for me as we drive a insane amount... I have the Saturn that gives me awesome mileage (50+) and it has more power than stock... If I can sell a few old classic cars I have I may have to break down and spend like $10,000 on a low mileage used Honda Element... Though it is hard to get them here that are 2 wheel drive...They at least give 25 miles to the gallon which is not too bad I guess.
It just kills me to spend that kind of money on a car we are going to wear out... I prefer the routine we are in now.. I buy a car for $2-300 drive it for a while and make $500 when I sell it pocket the profit and get another car... Kind of like paying the upkeep insurance and gasoline for the year...
my wife is getting annoyed driving cars with dings dents faded paint that are 20 years old though.... She always complains that she has the ugliest car at school and all the other teachers drive new SUV and Acuras.. etc..
I just cannot spend a ridiculous amount of money or make a car payment... It goes against everything I believe in...
But I also believe in Marriage :o so I may have no choice here :-X
Try to find something 2000 or newer.. between 50-70,000 miles... 4 door clean auto with cold AC... Something that has nice paint that I can add alloy wheels if needed (something she likes.. she hates hubcaps) I would like to find a car around $3-4000 that she could drive for a couple years without complaining to me about... And that would prevent me having to spend my classic car money for a transportation car...and it would prevent me having to commit to a car payment.
I need to get a little lucky and find something extra clean that is in my price range...I have been looking... if I find something the wife gets her present early I guess.
Not going to make her wait or wrap it... :)
any suggestions Don?
Hmmmm. Need to give this some thought.(kinda waiting for GK to go off on the pagan thing).
I could but I thought better of it since so many want to believe different, but it's there- Google it. :)
I do it for Sassy whenever I want to get her into a good discussion. ;D
I thought you were into festivus for the Rest of us...
And all this time it is just about sassy ;)
I like the Festivus idea. It seems so real - no presents to deal with -- just that shiny aluminum pole and the simple airing of grievances-- telling everyone how they have disappointed you over the last year - kind of airing out the dirty laundry. Wasn't there some wrestling involved also? :-? :)
well a little beer and some wrestline... primative male bonding stuff... Can't be much harm in that...
Take the wrestling thing outside though...I would think the underground HQ is a bit confined for wrestling ;)
Hey, Peter, I wasn't ignoring you, just away for a few days.
You're a man after my own heart regarding the interest payments on cars. I only had one car with payments and we paid that off in a years time. Doesn't make sense to me to pay someone else for the money, bad enough having to pay for the car.
Re: the parking lot at school full of shiny vehicles... we both know that those folks are paying the bank for the privilege. And for how long, 5 years, 6 ?
I had thoughts of getting a used TDI VW, but they're as scarce as hens teeth on the used market around here.
What would I pick in the used car game? Not sure, but historically (personal) it would be between a Honda Civic or a Ford Escort, what I would call my "high" and "low" ends. We've had both; Honda, never spent a dime on repairs (other than maintenance and brakes/tires due to mileage, whereas the Escorts had repairs (mostly fuel system) but were cheaper to buy. :-/
Don
A car for personal use is a no win situation.... you buy it and you wear it out... it gets less valuable every day you own it...
I guess that is why I drive classic cars... I use em enjoy em and then make money off em...
my wife actually understands the other teachers have debts for their cars and own nothing... She hates debt... but she hates having no ac in a 20 year old clunker when it is 100 degrees down here all summer ;)
i guess if we can afford a honda we will go with the honda... pretty hard to argue with the track record of almost all hondas the last 20 years (passport excluded they were izuzu junk!)
Peter, I hear your wife loud and clear when it comes to the A/C. When we first moved way south tp NM I suffered and sweated through the first 2 years of summer heat before we got a vehicle with A/C. I wouldn't want to live without A/C again. There's scarcely a day through the year when it does not get ued around here. Up in the mountains it's another story; the A/C just doesn't get used as frequently.
Although I my hubby would NEVER buy me such an item, and I would NEVER spend the amount, I would sure like some night vision goggles. I think it would be so cool to scare the neighbors cat in the middle of the night.
Way cool toy! Too bad that the cheaper ones are such junk compared to the better ones. The qualities are listed in generations; 0, 1, 2, 3, 4. I had the good fortune (bad fortune?) to be able to try out some Gen 3 (current US military) goggles and have been forever spoiled. :'( The ones I could justify buying (Gen 1) are so inferior. Still better than squinting in the dark, though. :-/
Goggles are more fun than binoculars or monoculars since your hands are free, but they take some getting used to.
stinkerbell
that was pretty random... ;D
But yeah it would be cool to have night vision goggles... way cool...
Well, don't pick on her too much, Peter. I like her attitude. :)
That could be payback for the time two tomcats were fighting and chasing each other. The one in the lead was so scared he ran up a tree and let go a dump as he flew through the air, nearly hitting my brother (maybe it did hit him - can't remember). At any rate - hit or not, the stench was unbearable as part of the pile sat and cooked on the hot steel he was welding on.
That would be cool -- Stink wearing a pair of night vision goggles going around scaring the crap out of the neighbors cat. My brother would feel avenged. ;D
lol
Its the Christmas thread, thought it was a good idea to tell ya all what I want for Christmas.... ;D
Quote... thought it was a good idea to tell ya all what I want for Christmas.... ;D
For certain! I'm trying to decide what I want? Trying to keep it practical, within budget. :-/
I want a new mother in law...
Seriously... major problems at the homwefront... my wife has been crying every night.. not good
Ut oh, thats not good at all. :(
Best wishes and good luck, Peter.
Well the problem is sort of averted...I just told the mother in law I would never go to her house again...She can come to mine... but she has to follow the rules in my house... mainly no putting me or my wife down... etc...
the whole family thinks I am an asshole now..Because I marched up to her and told her to take a good look at my ass... Because it is the last part of me you will ever see as I walk out the door..
I am glad that it is just over...I know it is hard for my wife...But I will not have someone criticize me over and over ditto for my wife... I cannot control what her mom does on her land...But I can control if I ever go onto her land...And thus I can make sure I never have to listen to that garbage ever again...
I am sort of happier now than I have been in months...Still my wife is upset..Which makes me feel bad..
Life goes on man.... life goes on... :-/
I always speak my mind...Half the time it gets me in trouble...Oh well I gotta be me
It's done and now make sure you stand firm.
With that said I will give you a joke to ponder......
What is the difference between my mother in law and a pit bull?
She is the one with lipstick on.
I hope that cheers you up!
Wait a minute, Stink -- the pit bull is a female? :-?
glen glen glen glen glen
;D
i will tell that joke to my wife :o
Benevolence, good for you for standing up to your MIL. Sometimes I don't think they realize the damage they do. (I'm talking about my own mom and NOT my MIL here.) My mom was frustrated with my husband once and called him stupid in front of our kids, in our house, at our dinner table. My husband did not say a word. Of course, I didn't hold my tongue; I wasn't mean either, but I told her that she would not be welcome in our house if she spoke to my husband like that. It really took a while to get past it because it messed up the way the kids see their dad... they treated him like dirt for a few weeks, and treated me like dirt at times, too. Part of the reason that we moved 900 miles from home was my mom's interference, but after a few years at this distance, we have a much better relationship with her. I've already told her that if we do move back to OK, she can't come barging in on us every single weekend, unannounced, and using our house as a storage shed for all of her junk; she was a little miffed at first, but got over it quickly because she realized I wasn't saying stay away, but I was just asking for her to extend common courtesy. Both of us have developed a little backbone in dealing with her since living away from her for a while because we're not so stinkin' mad at her all the time... it gives you a chance to look at things without emotion driving you crazy. I don't wish for you a new MIL for Christmas, but wish you a new relationship with her that's healthier for all involved, including her.
well
things have gotten pretty ugly...To the point where my wife wants to quit her job have us sell the house and move to Canada just to be rid of all the BS her mom is putting us through...funny as it sounds I am the only one talking her out of it...Telling her to stick with the teaching certificate program and to try to get past what her mom has said and done.
Her mom thinks I have horns and a tail... I imagine I would be to blame if her daughter moved 1800 miles away....Little does she know her daughter is ready to get as far away from her as possible...
Life is a funny kettle of fish sometimes.
The only thing I know is that no matter what happens I am the scapegoat... :-/
How close does this MIL live? >:( Sounds like your wife needs to speak up for herself (so that you don't get all the blame) and then stick to her guns on school. Get caller ID, and if MIL calls and you're not in the mood to deal with it, don't answer. If she shows up uninvited, politely tell her that you had other plans. If either of you have other family nearby that you do get along with, don't move 1800 miles from home just to avoid MIL! (Speaking from experience here.) In spite of the fact that our almost three years away from home has been really good for us in a lot of ways, I feel like we've missed out on so much with our kids not getting to be around their cousins and great-grandparents, and even great-great grandparents. If you like the place you're in, and you like your work, and your wife likes her work, why let one person dictate where you live and what you do? Sounds like MIL would be better off, and so would you and your wife, if you were to be very direct with her and set some ground rules and let her know what the consequences will be if she doesn't stick to them.... she'll be ticked at first, but you'll get along better in the long run. Wish you the best.
I wish to be in Oklahoma for Christmas!
Stick with it and don't make any drastic changes that you might regret later.
I got lucky. My MIL turned out to be a pretty good one. We lived with her for 10 years when she got laid off and had some health issues. Did we fight?...sure. Did she butt in sometimes?...sure. But we looked past that, and when the grandkids came around, she was a totally different person. Our kids loved the fact that they knew their grandma very well. Hard to believe she's been gone 10 years now.
I am also seeing it from another side now too. Our oldest just got married a couple of weeks ago, and my wife is much like her mom. She loves my daughter, but has a propensity to stick her nose in things. I have tried to tell her to back off a bit, but you know how that goes. But over time, I think the new SIL will work out well for both of them.
I don't think most MIL's mean to interfere... most of them are probably really good people with good intentions, but isn't it better to be direct about it than to sit and stew for days/months/years? My mom is very blind to the stuff she does that drives people crazy... she sees it in everyone else, of course. She always treated our house like it was her get away place. She never asked, but would just show up... from the time my oldest daughter was born until the time we moved to WI she only missed two weekends showing up to "camp out" at our place for the weekend (that's two and a half years!!!) She took our spare key for herself without asking, and if we didn't answer the door, she'd just let herself in!!! If we had planned to go somewhere, she'd just get in the car with us and go, and then expect us to pay, and we were dead broke at the time. My food was never good enough for her because we didn't eat much meat because eating meat meant killing a hen that provided eggs... she'd show up and then want us to go out to eat, and then leave us with the bill EVERY time. It was a total lack of courtesy and respect... she treated us like possessions rather than people. It's sad because I was always very close to my mom, and it got to the point that I almost couldn't stand to be around her... she was damaging our marriage, and destroying my relationship with her. Any lesser man than my husband would've divorced me over issues with my mom, and I'm not stretching it. Every single time my mom showed up, she'd bring a van full of junk... stuff she picked up at yard sales, old stuff from her house that really should've been trashed, clutter... she even parked a dead vehicle right outside our picture window at our old house for more than 5 years!!! She didn't get rid of it until 3 days before we sold that house, and then only because I told her that the realtor said it had to be gone or the deal wasn't going through. I'd asked her to do it for me and my husband a hundred times or more, but she never would... it took the leverage of the realtor telling her to get rid of it.
My kids love their grandma, and I wouldn't trade that relationship for anything... but I do get mad when I see her using guilt to manipulate them the way she's always done me. She sometimes forgets that she is the grandma and not the mom... and I feel like she almost tries to take "ownership" of the kids....in a warped sort of way that is a little disturbing. It also drives me nuts that when she gets onto my oldest daughter, she always yells my name instead of my daughter's.... more proof to me that she's trying to redo her parenting days?? I don't know. I really want to move back closer to home, but my husband and I have decided that things WILL be different this time around.
G/L Peter.
Looks like it's High Noon.
Sounds like your wife has to have a serious talk with her Mom. You give her all the support you can muster.
G/L. Peter.
Homegrown, it sounds like if you move back you still need to be far enough away for it to be inconvenient to just drop in. :-?:-/
Aw, Heck, if we were within 5 hours, she'd find a way to just "drop in" if we didn't put a stop to it. I used to get really mad at her, thinking she was fully aware of what a pain in the butt she was being. Then just about 6 months ago she was here for my daughter's birthday, and we were talking about the potential for us to move back home. I mentioned that my aunt was the only person who seemed to be against us moving back home, and mom said, "Ha, yeah, she tends to think that I interfere too much with your marriage and am too close to you. Can you believe that?" I was dumbfounded for a few minutes and finally I got up the nerve to reply, "You do interfere too much. If we move back, you can't just come over at will every single weekend. You need to learn to call and ask first." She really didn't have a clue that what she was doing was harmful... she kind of sulled up for a few minutes, but since then, I've had a better relationship with her because I feel like at least I was straightforward. I didn't go so far as to tell her that she is the reason that my husband didn't even look for work in state when he finished his doctoral work, but she knows that if we move back, our house is not her place of escape. It's also one of the many reasons we want a little house... no place for her to crash for the weekend comfortably enough to want to stay long term. Our old house in OK was about 45 minutes from my mom's... this time, we plan on looking on the opposite side of the county just for that reason... we want to be close but not "too close". My grandma is starting to need more help, and I really want to be close enough that I can go down for the day and help her clean her house or mow the yard or whatever. I think that a lot of mom's issues (and probably mine, too) come from the fact that when she got a divorce when I was 6, I was put in charge of the house while she went to work... I did all the cooking and cleaning and so forth, and when I moved out and went to college, her house went to pot because I wasn't there to take care of everything... she still blames me for the chaos in her home and I've been gone from home for 16 years or more. I think to a degree she still resents my husband for taking away her cook and housekeeper. The older I get, the more ridiculous some of those claims become...they don't make me feel guilty at all anymore, but I do feel sad for her. I wish more than anything she had a life of her own, friendships of her own, and responsibility for her own actions (and inactions.) I just hope I remember all this when my girls grow up and get married... at least I have more than one so that I can spread the craziness around a bit!!! For anyone who has ever considered only having one child, don't do it! Either have more than one, or remain childless... I have an adopted sister, but because she didn't come along until much later (she was about 15 when I was 13) all of mom's hopes are tied up in me. It is too much for one person to deal with... My husband jokes all the time about signing mom up on Eharmony.com because we both know if she had someone else, she wouldn't be hyperfocused on us. I wouldn't bat an eye if he actually signed her up. :D
It might be good if he did it and even let her know that the two of you felt sorry for her being all alone. :( :)
I am very knowledgeable about this as I called and old friend and set him up with my ex-wife. :o
I knew he liked her. ::)
Boy was she mad. >:(
She was ready to kill me but married him anyway. :)
You're kidding! That's hilarious... true or not. I've tried a few times to set her up. Never has worked out. She's too bitter. Keeps everyone at arm's length. It would be even funnier if my husband picked someone out for her. I've teased her about signing up for a dating service, but the closest she's ever come was joining a singles group at one of the local churches. That lasted all of about a year... some creepy old man kept hitting on her at the events, so she quit going.
Absolutely true. Actually I think I sent the message to him through my brother-in-law and sister, but she knew that I did it. Somehow I still fail to understand why she was not overjoyed. :-?
I agree with your mom - I attended some Christian singles groups - unfortunately, there's are lot of undesirables there...
about 4 hours away between the mil and our house.
not far enough...
my wife does speak up and when she does her mom blames me for that too... It is too hard for her to accept the fact that her own daughter could pick me over her and her new live in boyfriend....And her mom does not accept the fact that we want to get away from her and her interference. It is easier for her to just demonize me than it is for her to look in the mirror and accept some of the responsibility in this.
I have made a few mistakes in this...Maybe I should have held my tongue and let things go....But I love my wife and I definately threw gasoline on the fire when my wife started getting upset and crying...I could not hold my tongue and I kind of burned the bridge to peace and forgiveness.
I am okay with my actions and the ramifications of them...If it means we are isolated from her family I am okay with that...I think family is important, but nothing supercedes my relationship with my wife...and anyone that does not understand that does not need to be a part of either of our lives....So if her family wants to be mad at me or us I am losing no sleep...I will make my peace with everything and get on with my life.
I agree with you benevolance,
Biblically speaking that is why when a man and woman marry they are to leave their family and cling to each other (paraphrase).
Ok I am done slapping you with my bible. :)
Benevolence, I agree that the priority is on your marriage. Sounds like your wife married well. :)
My husband is just now coming to the conclusion that sometimes it would help if he would stand up for me... think he thinks he married such an "independent" woman that she should be able to take care of herself, but sometimes there are situations where it's necessary to present a united front (like raising kids.) I think it is also tremendously helpful with my mom... he's finally started to stand up to her (which goes against every grain of his culture) and she listens to him better than she does me. I hate to admit it, but I think she basically still sees me as a little kid incapable of knowing what I'm talking about. She doesn't like it when he stands up to her, but she does listen. About five years ago, my uncle, mom's youngest brother told my mom flat-out that if he were my husband, he would've left me because of the way my mom treats him. Mom got all hurt and apologetic over it for a little while, but because we tried to make her feel better instead of agreeing with him and saying, "Yup, every word he said is true" she was able to kind of dismiss whatever he said... in a few months, she was back at it. Now she's hearing it directly from us (not just me, as in the past... DH tends to get mad and just quit talking, so he was never backing me up... it was always, "It's your mom; you deal with her!") Think DH has really had a turn-around in his way of thinking of late... instead of being mad at her, he feels sorry for her and wants to give her legitimate help (ie. speaking the truth in love... most of the family walks on eggshells around Mom and they're not willing to deal honestly with her. It is easier to avoid dealing with some of her issues.) Anyway, we might be jumping out of the frying pan and right into the fire by moving closer to home, BUT have a plan to deal with it. I sometimes thinks God gives us families just to learn patience and perseverance, but then again, maybe it's just to drive us nuts! :P
QuoteI agree with your mom - I attended some Christian singles groups - unfortunately, there's are lot of undesirables there...
Woohoo, I think I figured out how to quote!
Sassy, you aren't kidding. I was amazed at some of the gold-digger women and the dirty old men in that bunch!
Stinkerbell
woo hoo you want to spank me... where were you when I was single ;)...with a bible no less... well it can be a good book after all I guess
*LOL*
as for my wife marrying well....I dunno about that...I have all kinds of flaws.... I want to run away and live my life out in the woods... that is my dream... I am disorganized I take on too many projects and I put off others so that I never get anything done on time and I am always scrambing to try to catch up...
I do love my wife more than anything and she comes first always in my life...I would not trade my life with her for anything though...Love my wife and I have.... wealth and peace of mind..... not so much :-/
I was sooooo trying not to use the word "Thump".........But alas spank was no better.
I think I will go find a nice old big KJV and smash you with it....lol
smash is a better word I guess...
you should have said you wanted to hit me with a phone book I guess... ;)
but, but I wanted to beat The Word into ya...... :P
but if you prefer a phone book, so be it. I am thinking one from maybe the NYC area, a big one......lol
stinkerbell
the bible might as well be used for beating people... nothing has been as destructive to man in our brief history....It is of little spiritual use... Greatest lie in existence
I am sorry ya feel that way. I feel very much the opposite then you. Despite the vast difference in our views I still like ya.
Hey it is okay that we disagree...I read somewhere once that if two people always agreed on everything that one of them would be un necessary!
I believe in God...Or a higher power...I just believe that Christianity and the bible for the most part is a crock of sh*t
Just out of curiosity, have you ever read it? :-/
What about it do you believe to be a lie/untrue/a crock?
well the earth in 7 days is a total crock of manure. And I have read to kill a mockingbird and when in that book they try to explain that a day could be a thousand years.... it would have to be hundreds of millions of years... The earth is billions of years old
Also in university I studied the book of Job....And there are at least 2 different versions the one in the King James Bible has Job reconcile with God.... In older versions he challenges god's authority over man and wins....The church could not have people reading that.... so it got axed
I have a problem with a book that existed orally for hundreds to thousands of years being taken as truth... as exact truth... people quote passages in the bible as if they are law....It is rubbish
the 12 apostles all wrote the gospel according to them... well the gospel is supposed to be the whole of it....why do we need 12 people to tell us who god is or what the values of christianity are....
I like the old testament better than the new testament... Christianity is a lie mostly and Jesus in my opinion never existed he is a creation who facilitates the church's needs
I believe the 6 day plan (God took the number 7 off ;) ) Not sure why its hard to believe? Yet some believe that we evolved from apes.
I am curious to what older version of Job? Hebrew or Greek text? I never personally came across two different versions. Who and when was this version axed?
Orally for hundred of thousands of years is hard to take, I agree. However being a believer myself I subscribe that its only over 5 thousand years old and not hundred of thousands of years.
I do not think it rubbish, but I will not argue that you feel differently and will be respectful towards your beliefs.
Peter, have you listened to any debates that Kent Hovind has had across the nation at numerous colleges & universities? He's very good. I would kinda laugh at how he could talk circles around the professors & other scholars, scientists etc. The sad thing was - Kent made perfect sense but those he debated could never really come up with any real evidence - just all this "hypothosis" or what you would call "faith in evolution" rather than faith in God. He'd tell them - "you have a right to believe anything you want - but just don't teach your faith with my tax dollars in our public schools!"
The Bible, although it was written over thousands of years, passed down through the generations, is really an amazing book - that was one of the reasons that brought me to faith - the wisdom, the cohesiveness, the salvation message that weaves its way like a golden thread from Genesis to Revelations. I have read a lot, I have studied most of the major religions & nothing compares.
Like I think I quoted before - Bob Dylan said it in a song - "you've gotta serve somebody"...
:) well said, Sassy.
sassy I serve
ever since the day I said "I do"... :P
The other version of Job is Hebrew text
I know that there is a difference between the bible and religion... but all religions are based on events in the bible and when man started to see things in the bible that were just wrong as we started to understand and explore the world....Religion then killed said men who made said discoveries just to protect this notion that the bible was the exact words of god and indisputable
that is why the world was flat for thousands of years and people thought the earth revolved around the sun....
If people can read a story from the old testament and reflect on their own life and see some good come of it...I am happy for them.... Truly I am. If they find peace and wisdom and contentment from studying it even better.... But we cannot treat it as anything other than a storybook....Some of the stories in the bible we know are pure fiction and came into the bible after they were published as works of fiction around the world... So this notion that it is all true and it is like God came to earth and got someone to grab a pen and pad and take down his exact thoughts..... Pure rubbish.
As for Christianity it personally to me is garbage... It is there to make people feel good about their lives...To make them love the church and not to bother questioning who leads them in their lives. Christianity basically is a endless pardon for being a bad person and breaking all the commandments.... just tell christ you believe in him and all is forgiven....
No responsibility, no more guilt, no more true atonement... just tell christ you are sorry and go back to being a lousy human being and god will be waiting for you in Heaven...Just give lots of money and beg for forgiveness again next sunday
What a crock of BS
Perhaps YOU cannot see the Bible as anything more than a storybook, but that does not mean that I cannot. Also, I don't think you've got a full handle on Christianity as you call it an "endless pardon for being a bad person and breaking all the commandments". True, there is nothing you can do to earn salvation, and any amount of human "righteousness" can only amount to a heap of dung in the sight of a holy God. If I were to be held accountable to the Law, then even if I'd kept it perfectly, I would certainly have thought about sinning, and Jesus equates lust to adultery and hatred to murder... how then could I ever be worthy of salvation? I absolutely could not, without a pardon, without something to wash away my unrighteousness. Christians aren't saved or righteous because of how good they behave, but because of the grace of a merciful God through Jesus Christ. And even though you can't earn salvation, the Bible says that in order to gain life, you must lose it, and in order to be first, you must be last, and if you want to lead, you must serve... it also says that you will know people by the fruit they produce and we are commended to produce fruit in keeping with righteousness. James says that faith without works is dead, and that faith is a present active participle kind of faith... it implies believing and acting upon that belief, not only having a vague idea that something exists. If people are truly believers, then their lives should be different... Paul calls believers "new creations". If nothing changed when I got saved, what's the point? It would then be just fire insurance... and if that's all it is, am I really saved at all? I don't condemn you for your beliefs, Benevolance, because it makes perfect sense for you to think that Christianity is "garbage" from your point of view. I don't want to start any feuds or anything like that, but I feel that your opinion only represents on very small aspect of Christianity and feel that it is necessary to refute it. My husband used to feel very much like you about Christianity, so much so that he would heckle the campus preachers in college and come to Bible studies to debate and argue with the Christians and see if he could get them upset. Times have changed, though... he's a much different person now... much different. In fact, a new creation. :)
hey it is okay we disagree
if you want to bang on bible..I say go for it
i believe there is a mutual benefit for everyone in striving for better morals in thinking about mistakes and making atonement. So I encourage everyone to read a little of the bible and think about their faith and beliefs.... I went to sunday school as a child and sang in the choir and all of that....I still go to church some if you can imagine that...I do believe in a higher power....I just do not believe the bible or the idea of Christianity to be accurate.
I make mistakes all the time and I have to live with them... I get angry or doubt people... or allow myself to raise my voice or think too much of myself...But in my life my mistakes cost me...and I have to live with the outcomes from those mistakes for the rest of my life....
So that in the future it is less likely I will make the same mistake.... the problem I have with christianity is that there is no sense of guilt remorse and no attempt to temper yourself to be better in the future with unconditional forgiveness... kill someone and jesus forgives you... rape lie cheat steal and all is forgiven...
I have a big problem with that... I myself am not above making mistakes or sinning....I would rather pay a penalty for my mistakes so that I am not likely to make the same one again and again...I would rather there be atonement for my wrongdoings... with Christianity all you need to do is ask forgiveness and it is granted no matter what you did or how many times you did it in the past
That makes me want to throw up
IMO, Christ did the atonement on the cross... no amount of me trying to make things right could or would undo all that I've done wrong. However, I disagree that there is no guilt/remorse/trying to do better... I struggle with guilt all the time, even though I know it is not mine to carry. I think what you're saying is that there is often no true repentance, because repentance would necessitate forsaking a lifestyle of sin, and yet Christians seem bound up by sin constantly. Am I hearing you right on this? Yep, it bugs me, too. But what I have to wonder is if we are merely believing in a God (even the demons believe that and shudder) or are we believing that what He says is true by trusting in Him to live it out in us?
A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From God"
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes."
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."
"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."
"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."
"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."
The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."
"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
I am not seeing what your saying about the Hebrew text in Job.
I am not here to debate with you, not my style, I am more of lets talk about why we have the positions we do. I am just trying to understand where you got your information.
I am curious about the Hebrew text of Job that you're referring to, also. Do you read Hebrew? I studied it in college, but never became good enough to translate smoothly, but I'm not sure what material you are referencing...
For anyone who might be interested or care, and for anyone who has access to Fox News Channel, Hannity & Colmes is having a debate on the existence of God, tonight. Short notice, but I didn't know about it until this afternoon. It'll be Christopher Hitchens, the atheist vs. Dinesh D'Souza, a Christian Believer. I like D'Souza and don't know a thing about Hitchens.
Stinkerbell
I will have to dig out my old college books to find the original book of job perhaps....
a quick search on google revealed sites with different versions of several old testament books though...
I am rather cautious what I read on the good old WWW. Anyone can place anything they want on it. However when you get the chance to go through your old college books I would like to hear from you your reference. No hurry, but when you get a chance I would appreciate it.
Also the Bible is written in many different translations for the English reader, KJV, NIV, etc for example. These are written in a different translation but does not mean the original Hebrew has been changed, just written in a way that can be understood. Plus there are instances that we apply todays definitions to Biblical words, for example the word "meek" most people today understand this word to mean, whimpy, mild, weak,, insecure. The word "meek' in Biblical context means to be in control of oneself.
Wow -- you people have been having fun. Interesting read to say the least. :)
Peter, you seem like an intelligent, perceptive person & we've had discussions here, in the past, over the Bible. No one can be forced to believe anything they don't want to or doesn't make sense to them. I'm the same way. You also sound like you try to do your best, although you're not perfect & neither are the rest of us.
Keep searching for the "truth" & you will find it but don't block your mind because of all the imperfect people you see who call themselves Christians who live their lives imperfectly. Remember, "you reap what you sow." A Christian may be forgiven, but they still suffer the consequences of their actions although God can change it for good. Just like you stated about the mistakes you've made being learning experiences for you & hopefully you don't repeat them again.
Hebrews 11:1 states: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Think about that... Another point - the Spirit of God enlightens His children - otherwise to the unbeliever, it is all foolishness. You've already stated that was a cop-out in one of our earlier discussions, but it doesn't make that statement untrue because you don't believe it. We all have to make our own decision on what we believe - hopefully, the one that is chosen, is the right one....
Stinkerbell, I really enjoyed that story! Homegrown, how true. MtnDon, it would have been interesting to have watched that show...
Yeah... I missed it too
Then we will never know? :-?
:'( Not from me anyhow.
I do have D'Souzas newest book on order at the library though.
http://www.amazon.com/Whats-So-Great-About-Christianity/dp/1596985178/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-7550156-2238024?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193807712&sr=8-1
QuotePeter, you seem like an intelligent, perceptive person & we've had discussions here, in the past, over the Bible. No one can be forced to believe anything they don't want to or doesn't make sense to them. I'm the same way. You also sound like you try to do your best, although you're not perfect & neither are the rest of us.
Keep searching for the "truth" & you will find it but don't block your mind because of all the imperfect people you see who call themselves Christians who live their lives imperfectly. Remember, "you reap what you sow." A Christian may be forgiven, but they still suffer the consequences of their actions although God can change it for good. Just like you stated about the mistakes you've made being learning experiences for you & hopefully you don't repeat them again.
Hebrews 11:1 states: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Think about that... Another point - the Spirit of God enlightens His children - otherwise to the unbeliever, it is all foolishness. You've already stated that was a cop-out in one of our earlier discussions, but it doesn't make that statement untrue because you don't believe it. We all have to make our own decision on what we believe - hopefully, the one that is chosen, is the right one....
I think this was very nicely said. :D
I think I've heard him on the radio before... I didn't get to watch last night either, though I would have liked to. I had to go get some shoes for my ever-expanding feet... most people gain weight in their bellies or butts with pregnancy, but not me... my feet just get wider and wider. Anyway, had to have a pair of dressy shoes that would fit (and I could walk in) for this weekend at DH's interview. I have two other pairs of dress shoes, both ugly, but the one pair started rubbing blisters on my toes suddenly within the last two weeks, even though they're big enough that the heel flops up and down. The other pair has 2-3" heels and I didn't figure I could walk in them without looking like a baked potato on stilts. Anyway, I did get home in time to watch Ron Paul on Jay Leno, though. Unfortunately, I think Tom Cruise got more time.
sassy
one of the problems of being a christian by and large is that they seek absolution in christ so they do not have to feel remorse guilt or pain at causing other people to suffer...
I have a big problem with people on earth getting an easy way out...We need to pay for our mistakes here and now and we need to face our problems and hopefully grow as people so as not to make as many mistakes in the future... Same with sin.. You cannot beat your wife ask christ to forgive go home and beat her again.... It is wrong on all levels.
If god and christ can forgive and help us enter into another plane of existence...I do not believe that they mean the church the faith and the religion to be a vessel used by the wicked to purge themselves of their consciences... go there to get rid of guilt take away the pain of having remorse and replace it with sunshine and good feelings... tell the people it is okay do not worry about what you did on earth that does not matter... heaven and god are eternal... you do not need to make amends and atone on earth... just ask god to forgive that is good enough....
it is a cop out
tell you what I will come visit... trash the underground headquarters and instead of apologizing or working to fix it up to repay my debt to you...We will drive to the church and you can watch me ask jesus to forgive me....
you might think that sort of scenario is acceptable... I do not... it is a joke
When I am dead and gone Jesus and God if they want me can have me... On earth I have to deal with the people in my life and repay my debts to them....
Peter, read Jesus' words again - it seems like it's been a long time since you've read what He said.... at least from your interpretation of how you see Christianity. Jesus had some scathing things to say to the religious leaders of His time. He also became very angry at the money changers in front of the temple... do you remember that?
I would think, that in order to place judgment, you should be familiar with what Christ actually did & said - not just look around & see how people are acting - you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater! Seems like a good review would be in order... ;)
Glenn likes to quote the Scripture - "Because narrow is the gate & difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few that find it." Matthew 7:14...
Some thoughts of mine...
Quote...I do not believe that they mean the church the faith and the religion to be a vessel used by the wicked to purge themselves of their consciences...
1. Of course not. A person may do "nasties" and ask their God for forgiveness. The priest in the confessional may grant forgiveness, or whatever depending on the religion, but he's only an intermediary. If he's duped that's one thing. I don't believe for a minute that their God will be fooled. I believe God will pull a "Gotcha", and that'll be that.
2. For that matter though I don't think that most of the car thieves, gang bangers, drug dealers, pedophiles, OJ's, etc. etc. really have any true religious beliefs. Even if they do, see #1 above.
3. While on earth they don't get any "easy outs", when they get caught by the police. Well, maybe because of some of the judicial processes, immoral layers, etc. some do not pay sufficiently while still on earth. That's a shame. But while on earth they might slip up, do another dirty deed, and get sent up on that. We can always hope;thinking of OJ. But also .... see #1 above.
Quoteinstead of apologizing or working to fix it up to repay my debt to you...We will drive to the church and you can watch me ask jesus to forgive me....
4. Better come equipped with a good set of tweezers. Around here there'll be birdshot, buckshot or a combination of both to be picked out while on the way to church. Or maybe the church trip will be detoured via the mortuary. :-/
I think the one thing that seems to be lost is repentance. That is to turn from sin, fix the issue and ask for forgiveness. There is this automatic expectation that some have that they are just forgiven. I tend to disagree with that. Now I could be in error on this, it is not an issue of salvation so I write this telling you I can be wrong. I would argue the point that some just sin sin sin, and never repent, to repent is to be walking with and towards Christ. If you are not doing that I highly suspect you are not walking with the Lord. I also suspect alot of people claim to be Christian without a clue to what that might mean.
sassy I remember him whipping the money changers... one of the cooler parts of the bible.. Jesus kicking some ass!
;)
Just read a few pages of the book on the Amazon link you posted. Looks like an interesting book. I've heard him speak a couple times on our local Christian radio station.
Just witnessed a heated debate similar to the one taking place here the other day... gotta hand it to y'all for keeping your cool and not getting all riled up. My cousin and his brother got into a theological debate that escalated to the point the older brother and his wife and daughter left because their mom was getting upset by the argument even though neither one was really mad. They were passionate about their beliefs, but not really mad at each other. Much more productive discussion takes place when you all keep your heads about you. :)
The Attack on Christmas
Amidst this Christmas season, I have taken the liberty of gathering a few of my favorite examples of the politically correct war against Christmas.
First let's take a little trip to Ft. Collins, Colorado where the city task force wanted strictly white lights, bare garlands and secular symbols such as snowflakes because colored lights and ornamented trees were too suggestive of a religious Christmas. In other words, this holiday task force was nothing more than a bunch of government bureaucrats with an activist agenda. Luckily, in this case, you will be happy to know that the city's residents spoke up, forcing the council to reject the proposal to create the strictly secular, multicultural display.
Traveling across the ocean, we go to Sydney, Australia where Santa Clauses were being trained not to say the traditional "ho, ho, ho." This is because the word "ho" is offensive to women, and the children shouldn't be exposed to such derogatory words. Some Santas did quit over the dispute.
In Wales, an elementary school has banned its students from swapping Christmas cards because they are bad for the environment. Instead, teachers will allow the students to make one card each for someone in their class to ensure that everyone gets a card. Isn't that great ... combining environmentalism with "fairness." What a concept?
In Oregon, a coalition has been formed to make sure that Christmas trees are coming from farms that are environmentally friendly. The farms must meet the standards for properly managing wetlands, nutrients and pests. They must also conserve water and soil and be conscious of biodiversity and worker safety. The environmentalists like to call these "safe" trees.
While we are on the west coast, the Seattle mayor told children at a "holiday" tree lighting ceremony that children must use energy-efficient light bulbs otherwise Santa and his reindeers will drown because of melting icecaps.
Santas in Great Britain are being told to slim down and get in shape in order to set a good example "for the children."
Are you getting the picture, folks? But we're not finished yet!
In its 2007 Holiday catalogue, Lowe's decided that even "holiday trees" were not PC enough. It decided to re-name them "family trees." Lowe's has since apologized, saying it was a fact-checking error.
And finally, a principal at a government school in Winchester, Massachusetts canceled the school's annual trip to see "Miracle on 34th Street" because it is too focused on Santa Claus.
Merry Christmas, folks. The politically correct are gearing up to make it a jolly season.
We started this out with 2 months to go. Now down to less than 2 weeks. Yikes!
I found what might be the ideal gift for the Ice Cream lover among us. One of our preschool parents has one and bought two as gifts for this Christmas.
http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-ICE-30BC-Indulgence-2-Quart-Automatic/dp/B0006ONQOC/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1197611290&sr=8-1
That looks like it would be pretty simple - you don't even need any ice, do you? Wonder if it takes a lot of electricity? At least I could make ice cream without all the additives & preservatives. :)
No ice, no salt. You keep the bowl in the freezer. It has to be really frozen cold; 12 hours or so in the freezer. [you also get an extra bowl] She said that it helps to also put the ingredients in the freezer for 30-45 minutes before plopping them in the bowl and starting a batch.
It makes a real 1/2 gallon.... one of Glenn's pet peeves.. :)
I think she said it only takes about 20 minutes, so the actual machine power use shouldn't be too bad.
I don't worry about the amount unless I'm being tricked out of the same money for a shortchanged amount by corporate American Dairy Farmers. >:(
Pretty smart little boy
What a great witness and not meaning to in a way!
Sure wish more had this understanding... Merry Christmas!
This is a remarkable phone call from a 12-yr old boy to Houston radio station KSBJ FM 89.3. So profound, the station has it posted on their website. Click below to listen to it. It's short .
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zCdZwitrNoY
Thanks for sharing that, Redoverfarm - "out of the mouths of babes" ... the real meaning of Christmas :)