Windows over T1-11?

[OlJarhead]

OK we've settled on the T1-11 unfinished siding to be finished with batting to make it look like board and bat siding -- cost was lowest and I had to remind myself of that several times.

Once completed we will mask off the windows and door etc and stain the living crap out of it   This is common in our area perhaps becuase it's pretty dry?  Who knows.  Anyway, we like the look.

So the question is this:  We've used OSB as structural sheeting and will be installing T1-11 over it as siding but I've never installed windows over this kind of wall before.  Either I did it over T1-11 on the outside as both siding and structural (one layer) or on OSB and then trimmed and sided with modern siding.  So I want to know if I install the window on the OSB normally and then trim and run the OSB up to the trim ala modern siding techniques, or if I install the T1-11, then the window and trim around that (they way you would with one layer of T1-11)?

So option A:  OSB, Felt Paper, T1-11, Window, Trim

Option B: OSB, Felt Paper, Window, Trim, T1-11

It seems to me it would be best to install the window on the OSB and then side the building with whatever becuase the flashing would be more effective right?

Thanks in advance!
Erik

[n74tg]

If your windows are "new construction" type (that have nailing flanges), then, yes I think your flashing will work better if you choose option B.  Only question then becomes how will you finish off the inside "cut" edge on the T1-11. 

Just remember that the felt paper goes under the left, right and bottom window flanges, but "over" the top flange. 

Are you thinking of putting in sill pans?

[OlJarhead]

If your windows are "new construction" type (that have nailing flanges), then, yes I think your flashing will work better if you choose option B.  Only question then becomes how will you finish off the inside "cut" edge on the T1-11. 

Just remember that the felt paper goes under the left, right and bottom window flanges, but "over" the top flange. 

Are you thinking of putting in sill pans?

Not sure what a sill pan is...

I figure if I go with option B then I will run the T1-11 up to the window trim and caulk it with clear I guess.

[John Raabe]

Here's a little video tutorial on installing a window sill pan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeVByDIlqLA

[PEG688]

  The best way to do T1-11 IF you have a window wrap is to cut you window wrap or trim or use a scrap piece of the trim to mark the outer edge of the trim.

Boy I can see this is going to be hard to write down,

OK sheath the walls ,  paper the walls , use John's link for you sill  pan ( I build ours differently but that link is the same idea, after that take a piece of you trim and make a line around the window in pencil . That the line to cover over with the T1-11 by say 1/2 " , you then hang all the T1-11 on that wall , or the whole house , then come back and trim out the window , you rabbit the outer edge of the trim to lay over the T1-11 , so you have a good or better seal against the rain. The head pieces are a bit more work as you need to cut the T1-11 exact, and you need to mount the head flashings before the T1-11 goes on.

I'm pretty sure I've lost you by now , and I don't have any good photos showing what I mean.

I'll look and see if I do have a 1/2 done window with T1-11 type siding.


     

[PEG688]

 


This door way is ready for the T1-11 type siding, the head is on the flashing over the head is in place , the sides casings have been romoved. They get rabbited , the T1-11 goes on and then the side trim overlays the T1-11 edge.


Simple.

   

[davidj]

On my cabin (with board and batten, but same idea) I was planning on doing:

  Option C: OSB, Felt Paper, Window, exterior plywood, trim

I.e. I was gonna bring the plywood up to the edge of the window and just lay the trim on top.  Is this wrong?

With the trim and ext. plywood both sitting on the felt paper, does that mean the trim has to be 2" nominal rather than 1"?

[PEG688]

  Thats the real issue with T1-11 siding at the heads of windows and door. If you just "lay over" the siding with the trim you've created a wood sandwich that will rot. Even if you caulk it the caulking will fail and the water will get in at the head and rot out.   

[OlJarhead]

I think I get it.

Wrap the building, prep the window openings, install the window and flashing, install the T1-11 but leave 1/2 less then the trim, rabbit the trim and install over the T1-11?

I have a pdf on window installation I got from here somewhere and will watch the vid too.  Thanks

[PEG688]

I think I get it.

Wrap the building, prep the window openings, install the window and flashing, install the T1-11 but leave 1/2 less then the trim, rabbit the trim and install over the T1-11?

Pretty much , the heads and the flashing,  pay attention to that detailing on the links you look at, aways lead the water to day light/ on top of the building paper or felt. That lapping is important , think like rain, lead the water out / on top of the paper / felt.

There are two sticky areas at either side of the window / door heads and if there are roof to wall connections that are pretty much impossible to do the "lead the water out" thing with T1-11 products. You have to do your best at those places , but you minimize the potential of a leak.


  T1-11 isn't the best choice of siding , but it is pretty cost effective.

Good luck PEG . 

[OlJarhead]

I think I get it.

Wrap the building, prep the window openings, install the window and flashing, install the T1-11 but leave 1/2 less then the trim, rabbit the trim and install over the T1-11?

Pretty much , the heads and the flashing,  pay attention to that detailing on the links you look at, aways lead the water to day light/ on top of the building paper or felt. That lapping is important , think like rain, lead the water out / on top of the paper / felt.

There are two sticky areas at either side of the window / door heads and if there are roof to wall connections that are pretty much impossible to do the "lead the water out" thing with T1-11 products. You have to do your best at those places , but you minimize the potential of a leak.


  T1-11 isn't the best choice of siding , but it is pretty cost effective.

Good luck PEG . 

The problem I'm having is that I can't seem to find a cost effective alternative.  I like board and bat but finding even rough sawn lumber for it seems a challenge -- you'd think in logging country I might (note, I did hear of a mill about 20 miles north that might sell rough sawn stuff).

In the end we're in an area that receives just 15 inches of rain a year and gets very dry for at least 2-3 months of the year so I'm hoping that even with T1-11 it's unlikely much water will get in anywhere.

Who knows?

But I do know that where I live is even drier and our 54 year old house has very little water damage -- our problem is more often then not the sun.  But I digress.

[davidj]

So I'm gonna splash out on 2x4 cedar trim and do my window trim properly.

Which means I've got to put a 1/2" x 5/8" rabbet on 300LF of wood (and, more fundamentally, move on from doing everything with a skillsaw and a nail gun!).  What's the quickest and safest way of doing this?  I've got a router and table and a decent table saw.  Should I buy a dado blade for the table saw?  Or do two cuts with the table saw?  Or finally use my router for something practical?

[John Raabe]

Here is one more opinion:

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/qa/window-detailing-for-t-111-siding.aspx


First Image


Second Image


Third Image

[rocking23nf]

Hey John, I always heard the rule of thumb was to not flash under the window, since water never travels upwards?


Its wierd because flashing windows doesnt appear to be common practise in canada, I have not seen it done before, and a few people at building stores said they have never heard of builders around here using flashing around windows.

[MountainDon]

What John has shown is how to flash the building wrap or paper around the window opening. The flashing (Grace Vycor or similar type) is installed bottom, sides then top. The bottom flashing is to prevent water from getting in between the T1-11 and the framing when water finds it way in there. Then the sides are flashed and lastly the header.

It helps a lot too if that bottom sill that is flashed over is installed with a slight down and out tilt to give the water a hint of the direction you want it to go. Alternatively a thin wedge piece can be installed on the sill plate. Another thing that can be done is to flash as small 'water strip' strip onto the sill plate, maybe 1/4 to 3/8" high.

Then the finned frame window is installed with shims and screws or nails according to mfg directions. The bottom fin is often not flashed to allow water to exit. However the sides and top are flashed again to keep water from going from the outside to and under the window fins. Again, follow the window makers procedure. Any deviation from that will void any warranty.

Then install the T1-11 siding. Or other type of siding for that matter.


No flashing being advised in Canada does seem odd. I mean the water isn't frozen all year long there, it just seems like it at times.  (joke.... I used to live there)   But it still seems odd; maybe you've been talking to the wrong folks?     Maybe 6 years ago, I built a deck and room for my brother in law in Winnipeg. We used Grace Butyl Vycor.... all I know is we didn't get it from HD or Rona; some other yard he liked to get materials from.

[MountainDon]

I forget if you have or have not installed the windows and T1-11 yet and I'm too lazy to bother reading back right now. I managed to get a cold and my head hurts.

[davidj]

I forget if you have or have not installed the windows and T1-11 yet and I'm too lazy to bother reading back right now. I managed to get a cold and my head hurts.

Sorry to hear your not feeling good.  Thanks to the pollen count being through the roof right now there are a lot of people feeling that way in Northern CA too - it feels like some kind of synchronized flu epidemic!

I think OlJarHead and I are at a similar point.  In my case, I've got the flashing done, windows in and sheathing on.  Now I'm doing building paper, siding and trim.  Which means I actually have to learn to use my router and/or table saw to do more than just trivial stuff, e.g. 300LF of of 1/2"x5/8" rabbet.  I'm guessing a dado blade on a table saw will be more efficient than a router given the bigger cutting area but maybe I'm just looking for excuses to shop for new tools...  If I use the router I guess that's too much to take out in one pass?  If I do multiple passes, is it best to do a shallow groove and move the router head up vertically each pass or move the fence to make the rabbet wider?

Maybe I just need a decent woodshop book...