Finally close to buying land, but one big ditch is in the way (literally)

Started by Pallas, July 15, 2018, 03:44:16 PM

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Pallas

Hello everyone, I'm back on the forum after taking some time off house planning and would like to please ask for your input on a crucial piece of my plans to finally begin building in earnest. I'm finally taking real steps:

1) I've signed up for the Yestermorrow home design/build course later this summer and hope to have my final house plans honed and blueprinted by the end.

2) After searching for land for the past few months, I think I've found a parcel that's got the right combination of size, location, and price (with a compromise on each). One great draw of the parcel is how attractive the price is (asking price is ~50% of other similar properties in the area). Obviously I'm suspicious about this and saw that the owner got it at a tax auction 4 years ago. I called the realtor who told me the title has been cleared and the owner just wants to get rid of it as he's sold other parcels off and just has this last one left.

Another big obstacle (literally) is the fact that the property has a big ditch alongside the road frontage, effectively blocking all road access or ability to build a driveway directly from the road to the land. I understand ditches can get filled, but I wanted to get your input about how much of a pain that would be and if it would cause more problems in the future. The realtor said that the owner started filling it before and that he was getting it done for free by building companies (?) as long as he used this approved filler material.

I have a lot of follow up questions for her, and am thinking of making that a condition to the sale, but first wanted to ask your thoughts of filled property ditches in general and how any improperly filled holes may cause problems for me later on (drainage, etc.). The property is 5 acres long and narrow so the ditch wouldn't impact too much other than making the building site further out from the road with a longer driveway.

I'd appreciate any feedback you all could provide and thanks very much in advance!

MountainDon

.... is a bridge possible?   Why is the ditch there? Does it serve a purpose, like drainage?
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


Dave Sparks

As Don said, why? How wide is the ditch? Can't you just install a culvert and fill a 12 foot wide road over it?

Oh boy Don, fire time out here. They are evacuating 5 miles up the canyon and the big 747 and DC 10's are flying circles all around us.
At least they can't fly when I am sleeping at night ;) It is the mean season. Hope all is hunky!
"we go where the power lines don't"

MountainDon

Our mtns had an inch of rain in 2 hours on the 12th while we were in Canada. Now we need to get up there and check if we need road repairs.  :-\ The The FS reopened the forest to the public, which is good and bad  ??? 

Best wishes with the fires. Those pilots deserve a lot of praise and support.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Don_P

Hoping they can get a handle on the fires soon. Our dry spell broke yesterday and it is still sprinkling, the power came back on around midnight, it was accompanied by wind.

You'll enjoy the Yestermorrow school, my Dad and his partner took their course years ago.
I'll second MD's advice, find out why the ditch is there. If it is directing water, even periodically, that needs to be addressed. It varies by state and locality, NRCS and DEQ here can help with looking at that. I've had them help with culvert sizing as well, it's always bigger than I guess at but I've seen others torn out more than a few times when we guess. When we do significant earthwork, >10,000sf, it requires a responsible land disturber certificate from the state. Our study materials and test can be done online and they simply require that person be on the job so I've held that license in the past, it can be the landowner and the info is good to know as far as erosion control methods.


Pallas

Thanks very much for the quick responses. I did some research online on the feasibility of a bridge and my biggest question is on how expensive this would be - especially since it would be the main driveway to support loads of up to 50,000 lbs for emergency vehicles if necessary. Given the large span and engineering and materials, I fear it could go upwards of $10K+

I've only seen pictures and maps but am planning on visiting the site this weekend, however, it looks to be more like a ravine where the land drops down suddenly and it's flat for a large area in the middle and not really a drainage site (kind of like a giant pressed footprint). There are trees growing in it, etc (I'm attaching a couple of pictures for reference https://womensworldbanking.box.com/v/Ravine, https://womensworldbanking.box.com/v/lot). Seeing it on the map, it seems to cover quite a bit of area (see neighbor's house for scale) but like I said, the tract is long so the major challenge is actually just blocking road access. Given this, the fill option also seems to be quite an undertaking for such a large area, which is why a bridge would maybe make sense.

Am I crazy for even considering this, or could this obstacle be reasonably solved? Thanks again for any thoughts!

NathanS

Your link is private.

I think your gut is telling you the right thing - what you're describing sounds like a real headache. And keep in mind that even without the ditch, the site work will be the biggest single ticket item in the build.

I would also go down to the county to investigate the deed. Tax deed's are not worth much, and the legal process to convert back to the equivalent of a warranty deed is no small thing.

Pallas

Thanks very much Nathan, I've updated the links.

I was thinking a possible extreme DYI option would be to do the bridge myself with a number of support piers on concrete feet throughout the span and just getting an engineer stamp to sign off on it. However, this sounds like quite an undertaking and may just use up all the energy I need for actually building the house.

Another option I was considering was trying to negotiate an easement to enter the site through the neighbor's driveway and bypass the ravine entirely...

Dave Sparks

The pix you posted does not look to me as a big challenge. We have similar all around us. They were hand dug by people looking for gold.
As for the neighbor, I would ask them what does the ditch do in winter? It would seem a small built-up road with a 12" culvert (guessing) would work. A load of gravel, some dirt and a backhoe with a skilled operator should be able to do this in a day. Get more pictures if you can from 4 directions.

I dislike easements as people change/sell and I would want my own access to my property.
Good Luck!
"we go where the power lines don't"


Dave Sparks

Quote from: MountainDon on July 15, 2018, 10:42:57 PM
Our mtns had an inch of rain in 2 hours on the 12th while we were in Canada. Now we need to get up there and check if we need road repairs.  :-\ The The FS reopened the forest to the public, which is good and bad  ??? 

Best wishes with the fires. Those pilots deserve a lot of praise and support.

Thanks Don,
Pretty bad this AM :-\  Too smokey to fly so the air attack is grounded. About 5 miles as the crow flies. The dozer operator who died was a pretty special local guy. Two kids and a wife... The fire looks to me to have started from a trailer chain or an arsonist. It started right next to the road in 3 places. Pix below. Very happy to have the spare mini-split heatpump.

3M Niosh N95 "cool flow" masks on for a ride to town. Get some from Amazon.  Oh yea, the fixed wing heavy tankers are using drones this year. They just hover and illuminate the drop zone target. [cool]

http://www.goldrushcam.com/sierrasuntimes/index.php/news/local-news/14621-photos-of-ferguson-fire-near-yosemite-national-park-in-mariposa-county
"we go where the power lines don't"

jsahara24

Quote from: Pallas on July 16, 2018, 08:30:10 AM
Thanks very much Nathan, I've updated the links.

I was thinking a possible extreme DYI option would be to do the bridge myself with a number of support piers on concrete feet throughout the span and just getting an engineer stamp to sign off on it. However, this sounds like quite an undertaking and may just use up all the energy I need for actually building the house.

Another option I was considering was trying to negotiate an easement to enter the site through the neighbor's driveway and bypass the ravine entirely...

Its hard to really tell the big picture with that picture, but it looks like you could cut into the bank and pull the fill back into the low area to soften to the slope.
So instead of going up vertically 10' in 15' horizontally, an existing 1.5H:1V slope, you could make the slope about 8H:1V (~12.5%) by using the fill in the bank to raise the low area.  Make sure if you cut off the drainage and create a low point to install a culvert. 

It doesn't appear that area holds water from the pictures, as I don't see any wetland vegetation but its worth checking out.  The other thing to consider is some Townships won't allow you to disturb steep slopes, however those appear to be man made so there are sometimes exceptions to allow for those situations. 

Pallas

Those are all really good points, thank you!

It gives me hope to think this could be a simple built up road/culvert fix. Would anyone have a range of the expected cost for this? I would want to make it a bit neater with retaining walls on the side and not just a long mole hill looking thing - will I change my mind once I see the additional cost to this compared to a simple fix? I'm happy to play brick layer for a few days.

Just a quick update, there's a small bit of wetland just to the side of it (though not in the property line) so some water may appear seasonally. Looking at local ordinances, I think a culvert would still need required dimensions.

Does it make sense that this ditch conundrum is why the property price is so below market (besides the seller being in a "hurry to sell"). I was told the title was clear and would of course confirm with a lawyer. I just want to make sure I'm not buying a lemon here and am missing something else.

Dave Sparks

In many places one can disturb the land if it is for firewood access without a permit.  There has to be firewood and the op should discreetly ask the building department or whatever the resource district is called in that area what the guidelines are for this? There often is percentage of the land disturbed or?

Also ask the neighbor about this zoning for cutting a firewood road for access to ones property.

How is the land zoned BTW?
"we go where the power lines don't"

hpinson

If allowed, the thing that comes to my mind is a sign that says "Clean Fill Wanted". Cut out that timber and fill in that depression (I would not call it a ditch) with old concrete rubble, sand, rocks etc, just as the previous owner had started doing.  No brush or building debris though which could compact unpredictably.  That is going to be a big headache until you get it up to grade.  Probably collects water and breeds mosquitos too at certain times of  year. If it is designated as a wetland, you may have a real legal problem, depending on your locality -- that money or time can't fix. Check with zoning/ county if fill, or even alteration, is allowed!

I am tending to think that this could be costly, and may account for the properties low price. Is the rest of the property exceptional in some way? Also you appear to have a VERY close neighbor.



Pallas

Quote from: hpinson on July 16, 2018, 03:41:29 PM
If allowed, the thing that comes to my mind is a sign that says "Clean Fill Wanted". Cut out that timber and fill in that depression (I would not call it a ditch) with old concrete rubble, sand, rocks etc, just as the previous owner had started doing.  No brush or building debris though which could compact unpredictably.  That is going to be a big headache until you get it up to grade.  Probably collects water and breeds mosquitos too at certain times of  year. If it is designated as a wetland, you may have a real legal problem, depending on your locality -- that money or time can't fix. Check with zoning/ county if fill, or even alteration, is allowed!

I am tending to think that this could be costly, and may account for the properties low price. Is the rest of the property exceptional in some way? Also you appear to have a VERY close neighbor.



Thanks for the suggestion, especially on if filling is even allowed. Would a complete fill job be easier/simpler than a built up road and culvert across the way, assuming alterations are allowed? The zoning is rural residence (R40) which I'm not terribly familiar with.

On the close neighbor... I know  ::) supposedly a family member was supposed to buy this lot but never did so I think this guy thought he was going to have a compound when he recently built that house. He has another family member on the other side and there's another house crossing the other property line. I looked at their survey map and the approved site was within boundary, so I'm hoping the online map line is just off. When I go to the site I'll check for survey pins and see if he really is that close... what recourse would I even have about a house that's already been built across the line? Also, I can't believe the county let him do that...

The property isn't terribly magical, though it is 5 acres so it goes down a longer way beyond what the picture shows so I'd look to get privacy by building down towards there. What I like about it honestly is the price and relative closeness to my primary address in the city - I was willing to take a broken/fixer-upper land with some faults if I can get around them and get some property for a decent amount.

jsahara24

Quote from: Pallas on July 16, 2018, 04:28:21 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, especially on if filling is even allowed. Would a complete fill job be easier/simpler than a built up road and culvert across the way, assuming alterations are allowed? The zoning is rural residence (R40) which I'm not terribly familiar with.

On the close neighbor... I know  ::) supposedly a family member was supposed to buy this lot but never did so I think this guy thought he was going to have a compound when he recently built that house. He has another family member on the other side and there's another house crossing the other property line. I looked at their survey map and the approved site was within boundary, so I'm hoping the online map line is just off. When I go to the site I'll check for survey pins and see if he really is that close... what recourse would I even have about a house that's already been built across the line? Also, I can't believe the county let him do that...

The property isn't terribly magical, though it is 5 acres so it goes down a longer way beyond what the picture shows so I'd look to get privacy by building down towards there. What I like about it honestly is the price and relative closeness to my primary address in the city - I was willing to take a broken/fixer-upper land with some faults if I can get around them and get some property for a decent amount.

Filling in that in from locals looking to get rid of fill is likely the cheapest route, however it will take a long time unless you have a reliable source like perhaps a pavement contractor looking to get rid of his millings or similar.   Before you buy make sure its not a wetland and you are allowed to do what you want.  Go talk to the zoning officer at the Township and they will be able to guide you.  If there is wetlands typically you can't disturb them.  In PA you are allowed to install a road through a wetland with the proper permits, however it needs to be the only option and you put that road where the smallest wetland disturbance will occur.  If you need to get a wetland permit and a have an engineer design a storm pipe you could be looking at a couple/few thousand dollars by the time its said and done. 

Trying to get a driveway permit for firewood may be a cheaper option, that you could then turn around and use in the future just be careful if you plan to build a cabin immediately as they could catch on to the "gimick". 

Don't trust the online GIS mapping systems for exact property corners, they are wrong more often than you might think.  Go look for pins, talk to the neighbor about if he had his property surveyed or knows where the pins are, pull the deeds and review,  and ultimately talk to a surveyor if you are unsure.   

It doesn't sound like a total deal breaker to me, but I don't know how strict your code department is and a handful of other variables. 

Good Luck, just do your due diligence!

hpinson

Wetland status and your ability to fill will depend on a) status as wetland (it might or might not be one), and b) state regulations regarding wetland encroachment and infill. Some states are draconian. Others not.

The property should be surveyed prior to sale it nothing else for your peace of mind.

I had a similar situation where the survey revealed a neighbor had build a garage on the land that I was purchasing.  I was not going to ask the neighbor to remove the garage, so the legal solution was what is called a Quitclaim deed.  Upon purchase, I revised the property boundary and deeded the very small portion of the property (.5 acre) with the garage to the neighbor. I did not charge for this, though legally probably could have.  The result was that the neighbor legally gained ownership of the property his garage was built on, and while no abutting neighbor was entirely happy with the results of the required survey, I think the Quitclaim Deed went some ways toward goodwill. The survey revealed other irregularities that I was willing to overlook.


MountainDon

QuoteDon't trust the online GIS mapping systems for exact property corners

Our county GIS map shows a narrow strip of our land that overlaps the neighboring property.  However, two surveyors agree on the actual placement of pins that indicate the boundary corners.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Pallas

Thanks all. I'm attaching a couple more pictures to show the portion of wetlands in the space/property line. It's designated "National Wetlands Inventory" on the key (as opposed to "Tidal Wetlands" or "Freshwater Wetlands"). https://womensworldbanking.box.com/v/wetland


I'm also showing the full lot just to give some scale about the actual size and why it may be worth it to deal with this conundrum if I can still have space to build out down the lot. https://womensworldbanking.box.com/v/larger-lot

Would a survey be something that the seller pays or buyer? It seems to benefit the seller if I walk away after the survey... is that something I should request as part of the sale? Also, is the consensus then that I should fill in the depression as opposed to just building a road with a culvert through it? I'm not sure a fire access road would work, since I'd want to get to building as soon as possible on the land.

Thanks again!

jsahara24

The wetland delineation you show gives me concern, my belief is the property line will likely be shifted away from the existing dwelling and that wetland could negatively impact your ability gain access to the back of the property (picture the same property width shifted over top of the wetland).  It is likely you will need to have a wetland study completed to truly depict the limits in the field, which may vary somewhat from the national wetland inventory delineation.   Wetlands are based on three things, hydrology, soils and vegetation.  Wetland delineations are completed through visual inspection of the surface water and vegetation, along with actually digging up the soils in several locations (with a shovel) and having the limits of the wetlands flagged.  Having said that please understand that I generally work in a more developed area where the rules are very stringent, you may find different results in a more rural area.

I find it unlikely that you will be permitted to fill in that wetland completely.  You may be able to get a permit to put a driveway and culvert through it, however you will need to your disturbance to an absolute minimum. 

Please understand I am not trying to sway you away from the property, just want you to be aware of what "may" happen as I have seen it more times than I care to admit.  In PA wetlands are taken very seriously and you can actually be fined if you knowingly disturb them without appropriate permitting.  Said permitting can unfortunately get expensive.  Good luck. 


Quote from: Pallas on July 18, 2018, 12:08:55 PM
Thanks all. I'm attaching a couple more pictures to show the portion of wetlands in the space/property line. It's designated "National Wetlands Inventory" on the key (as opposed to "Tidal Wetlands" or "Freshwater Wetlands"). https://womensworldbanking.box.com/v/wetland


I'm also showing the full lot just to give some scale about the actual size and why it may be worth it to deal with this conundrum if I can still have space to build out down the lot. https://womensworldbanking.box.com/v/larger-lot

Would a survey be something that the seller pays or buyer? It seems to benefit the seller if I walk away after the survey... is that something I should request as part of the sale? Also, is the consensus then that I should fill in the depression as opposed to just building a road with a culvert through it? I'm not sure a fire access road would work, since I'd want to get to building as soon as possible on the land.

Thanks again!


MountainDon

There are two things that would make me walk away from any property. Notations that state "historic" is one and the other would be "wetlands".  Both usually come along with restrictions on what can be done and a requirement that any changes be approved first.  You should very carefully check on what that appellation referring to wetlands means as far as what can and can not be done and what approval requirements there might be. Also, you should likely check with the county or whatever, rather than trust what a realtor may be saying.  Just my 2 cents.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

hpinson

Agree very much with MountainDon and jsahara24.  You need to get with the County building inspector or zoning, and understand their policy towards filling or building in or near wetlands. Usually it is not permitted though sometimes there is an exception process. Would be good for you to see the County policy in writing. If no written policy exists at the County level what is State law in regards to filling/ building on or near a wetland?  Like Don says, the real estate agent is not a reliable source of information.

A partial exception like jsahara24 describes might be granted for instance if you prove to the County that the depression is not a wetland (probably you would need to engage a biologist or engineer) and/ or completely prohibiting access to the property.

I might have missed it but what state are you in? In New England wetlands have setback buffers and you cannot generally build in those areas either. In much of Texas this would be a non-issue.

The map wetland designation looks off. Probably poorly digitized. I'd assume that wetland delineation falls right in the depression as opposed to being offset like the map shows.

All this may be a point to negotiate the property price down IF you can privately find a workable access solution. It is a serious defect in the property. The neighbors house encroachment as it appears in your illustration, if accurate, is also a serious defect.

Survey cost is usually negotiated as part of the offer. Seller or buyer could pay, or even both split. It is a significant cost. Ours cost 4K for 50 acres, and the seller agreed to pay because the property was distressed and they wanted rid of it. The survey can cause stressful relations with abutters who in your case may lose property... just a FYI, but you really have to do it in a situation like this given the problems apparent.

One more thing - it is possible to put conditions into your offer - like 'provided that seller develops legal vehicle access to property directly from County Road X.'

I have to say I would not have my land today if I had not done that and the seller been motivated.



Rys

There seem to be a couple of possible issues with this property.
If you have to pay for a survey and someone to evaluate the wetland area + pay to develop an access across the low area will the property still be as attractive to you financially?

hpinson

I would definitely make purchase conditional to a survey that the seller pays for, with completion of survey and positive acceptance of results by you a precondition to final offer. If the seller is serious about selling the property they will have to do this. They will likely kick and scream though.  I would probably ask the seller to take on the access issue too though that may drive price up.  Otherwise it is just a big gamble on your part.

You may also find after a survey that the boundary as is presented now is partially or completely wrong. That could be bad or good.

Also, perc test and water supply evaluation would be prudent.  You might agree to pay for those, as they are not that expensive.

Dave Sparks

With the new info I would run rather than walk away. There is just too much land that out there.

If you have to pay more for what you want that is just the way it is.
You have received some excellent advice from the group here.
"we go where the power lines don't"