I have a bad well problem !

[texasgun]

I finally got around to getting my well put in today and now I wish I had not even bothered to get out of bed. Driller showed up and set up after witching me a well only 25 foot from my barn and 75 foot from my cabin sight.

Started drilling and I new something was wrong because he went threw the first joint of drill stem in less than 1 minute. hooked up another joint and hit  gravel and water at 25 foot. Life seemed great for a few seconds as he continued to blow out gravel and water to 38 foot.

Now the bad news it all caved in. A total loss. Acording to the driller which has drilled hundreds of wells I am screwed, seems all my land is a big sand pit. His father which was helping him and has been drilling over 40 years was even lost. Since they were already there they moved thier rig to the front of my place probably 1/4 of a mile away and drilled hole 2.

Second well even worse than first caved in around the bit at only 15 foot and he had trouble pulling out. I AM DISGUSTED Any ideas

[archimedes]

Sorry about your troubles.

I know very little about wells. 

But a number of properties that I have looked at have shallow dug wells.  If you're hitting water at only 25 feet do you even need to drill a well.

I'm sure someone here will come up with a good idea.

[texasgun]

I guess I need to add the drillers said that the gravel that contained the water is full of very fine sand and would clog the screen they use on the casing or pass threw and eat the inpellers of the pump even if they could get the well cased.

[archimedes]

The properties I looked at had a hole dug in the ground about 3 ft across, lined with concrete that went down about 25 or 30 ft.  The concrete looked like a concrete sewer pipe but in the vertical possition.  The hole had a big concrete manhole cover over it.  I would imagine that at the bottom of the concrete pipe that there is some form of perforations to allow it to fill with water and then that is pumped out for use.

[glenn kangiser]

I am a driller and if there is gravel and sand there then I think it is possible to make a well.  Fine sand can be a problem but it could be over developed (pumped at a high rate) then when you put a smaller pump in it will pump at a lower rate and not pull the sand.  It would have to be cased as they go likely.  A casing driver on his type rig or a cable tool can do it.  There are several ways to approach the problem depending on the equipment and experience available.

The natural gravel and sand should make a natural gravel pack around a screen if properly developed.  No question that fine sand can be a problem but I would not go so far as to say that you are screwed.

I am not there so I cannot say for sure, but I would check around for a second opinion.  Also check around and see if there is an old cable tool driller around who could case it as he goes then screen it afterward - or possibly use perforated screen to start.

Bentonite added to the drilling mud should hold the hole open long enough to drop a screen in at least then I would air develop it until it cleaned up.

At the least check around for a second opinion.  Check with neighbors with similar soil and see who they used.

If you don't need a lot of water you could almost put a well point right down the hole he drilled.

[JavaMan]

I am a driller and if there is gravel and sand there then I think it is possible to make a well.  Fine sand can be a problem but it could be over developed (pumped at a high rate) then when you put a smaller pump in it will pump at a lower rate and not pull the sand.  It would have to be cased as they go likely.  A casing driver on his type rig or a cable tool can do it.  There are several ways to approach the problem depending on the equipment and experience available.

The natural gravel and sand should make a natural gravel pack around a screen if properly developed.  No question that fine sand can be a problem but I would not go so far as to say that you are screwed.

I am not there so I cannot say for sure, but I would check around for a second opinion.  Also check around and see if there is an old cable tool driller around who could case it as he goes then screen it afterward - or possibly use perforated screen to start.

Bentonite added to the drilling mud should hold the hole open long enough to drop a screen in at least then I would air develop it until it cleaned up.

At the least check around for a second opinion.  Check with neighbors with similar soil and see who they used.

If you don't need a lot of water you could almost put a well point right down the hole he drilled.

When I lived in Illinois we called this type of well a ... Wait for it .... Sand point well    We used it mainly for irrigation, but we'd drink outta the hose - and it didn't kill us!

[Ndrmyr]

This is a great opportunity for a "sand point" or "driven point" well.   They are readily available, as a tip that screws onto pipe that you then drive into the ground adding sections as you go.  You then have an inexpensive well pump on the surface.  With your soil, it will pretty easy to drive it in.  I would recommend getting the longest sand point you can and getting the finest internal screen. They are rated by "gauze" for fineness, but it will help keep your water clean. Frankly, sand and gravel is a great filter medium.  It's what we have at our 150 year old Railroad sand and gravel pit and it works just fine and our water tests out annually to drinking water quality and a single sandpoint provides enough water for 10 families.

[Jeff922]

I don't know much about drilling wells, but here's a pic of mine.  My lot is all sand with veins of gravel running through it.  It is actually adjacent to a large gravel pit.  As you can see in this pic, the sand is like beach sand - real soft.  They were able to get casing down it.  My well is different than yours because it's very deep; 420ft and the last 80 are in bedrock (be glad you didn't have to hydrofrac).  The water in your situation is only 25' away.  I'm sure you'll get it figured out.

Also, anytime I hear a contractor say "I've been doing this for ... years" I become very skeptical. Many times it's a "my daddy taught me and his daddy taught him" kind of a thing.  The younger generations are very prone to take family knowledge as gospel and not learn anything new.  Just because someone does something for 20 odd years doesn't mean they are doing it RIGHT. Get another opinion.

[rick91351]

I am with Glenn.  Here in the valley there is lots of sand and they blow on it and then reduce the size of the pump.  Ours is 200' should handle a one horse 10 gpm pump easy (plenty of water but lots of sand) - we have a 1/2 horse 5 gpm.  They tried screening this well before we bought and that did not work.  We had pump problems several years ago and of all the pump guys in the phone book.  I called one at random and got the one that drilled and set the pump when it was new in the sixties.  He knew the whole history of the well.  Around here it is surprising what they can do to keep a well producing!  I doubt you are as bad off as they claim.  Shop around a little.   

[texasgun]

Thanks for the replys so far and please keep the ideas coming. To give you an idea of the land we are dealing with it is a long narrow 165 acre piece of river bed on the Colorado River. As verified by my drilling by my cabin sight, and by the front of the place its all sand. There is little areas around this part of the country that are like this as demonstrated by the drillers lack of solutions. This drilling company is one of the most highly rated drillers in the area. The problems according to what they/I observed as we drilled the well it caved in, the hole enlarged every time they tried to blow-clean out the hole. When we hit water bearing material it was in the form of a gravel sand mix. The sand is very fine sand and they felt it would clog up any kind of perforated casing they could get. A sand point would clog to right? what kind of pump would you use that would not be eaten by water with fine sand particles?Beacuse of depth it could not be just suction(30')
GLEN: thank you for your reply knowing you were a driller I hoped you might give me some options. There are no more cable rigs in this area I checked, all rotary air rigs, last cable guy retired 7 years ago he drilled both the wells at my house. There is only one other driller and they did not even call me back. All the other drilling companies have switched to service only so its just these 2 guys left.
Please everyone keep the ideas coming I value your opions greatly.

[archimedes]

25 ft doesn't seem very far away to have to go for water. 

Interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6N0x8BnOKE

[archimedes]

How long do you think it would take for these guys to go down 25 ft?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz-ibmy7ZNA&feature=related

[rick91351]

That is a plus if they are highly rated.  There was a company here for a long time that was not.  Yet people used them and they kept others in business fixing their mess ups.  I hate to ask this but is deeper the solution to fining a landing as they call them around here?  All the cable rigs gone.  I can understand that.  They are here as well except for one huge old one they use to put in irrigation wells.  To me it seems like it took longer just to set one up than now days to set up, drill, tear down and leave.  The old rigs still did not have a bit in the ground.

As in all things there has to be a solution.          

[glenn kangiser]

Being highly rated doesn't always mean that they do the right thing in situations they are not familiar with.  Many well drillers drill a certain way and may not change if they get into an unfamiliar situation.

Something you are telling me makes me wonder.

You say they blew the well out to check for water and it caved in - the hole enlarged.  In sandy ground like this the hole should be held open with heavy drilling fluid - with bentonite added and not blown until the casing and screen is in, and in this case it should be sealed around the outside with bentonite or cement down to 20 feet  before they ever attempt to blow it and destabilize the sand.

They should drill the hole oversize held open with heavy mud, pull the drill- drop the screen and casing in with centralizers, fill the annulus to 20 feet below surface or more with gravel then fill the last 20 feet below up to the surface with grout, or bentonite pellet grout to seal it, then after that is done they can put an airline down the well and blow out the fine sand developing the natural gravel pack behind the screen.  The fact that there is gravel there - I assume multiple size gravel, I don't see how this cannot make a natural gravel developed well.  They should go at least twice the depth it is to water if possible for developing purposes.  The fines will come out through the screen - the stuff bigger than the perforation or slots will stay out making the filter pack naturally.

If there is a sand and gravel mix coming up, I cannot see it continuing to pumpo sand through a properly designed screen.

I am saying that if they put the air to this well and conditions are as you described with no casing installed, then they are not doing it right.



Here is a pix showing how the gravel is developed behind the screen - on the right - to keep out the fine sand.  The screen has to be installed before they try to blow it or the well cavity could cave in clear to the top under the rig.

I did not read the article as I am short on time but it may give you more info under the developing section.  The natural gravel will grade itself back holding consecutively smaller natural filter material until the water is clean.  Sounds like your driller either doesn't know how or doesn't want to mess with doing something he usually doesn't have to do.

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extnews/spouts/spout200.htm

[glenn kangiser]

The well point would be developed the same as the method above and would work the same but you could develop it with a smaller compressor.  The problem with the well point is that it would take a special small pump it it is too small in diameter.

I just don't see you not being able to get water here under the conditions you describe.

[texasgun]

I talked to 2 differnt dirt work companies yesterday about the possibility of digging a 20 ft deep pit that they could drive thier backhoe into and then use thier bucket to dig into the gravel/water to set a piece of 36" plastic culvert I have but we all agreed the gravel/sand/water slurry would be almost inpossible to get the casing sunk deep enough to make a resivoir. I think this culvert would be impossible to push in and the gravel woould not support itself to just being dug out and the casing inserted. I dont even know if 10 foot above the gravel would be solid enough to support machinery. I looked into bored wells but no one does them around here and again the walls of the sand arent going to support long enough to insert casing. Only have 1 other driller the one that never called me back last week, (I guess that why I have a been coming up with all these crazy ideas of hand digging/backhoe) but from the people I have talked to they also use an air rig and do not use mud or case as they go. I have thought about a driven sand point well but it would be deeper than 25 foot and I cant seem to figure out how they get a suction and a discharge for a deep well pump down a
1 1/2 pipe am I missing something?

[texasgun]

The other local well digger finally called me back and I explained the situation and he said he has drilled several wells in sand and is familar with the problems it brings. He says he uses a combation of temporary casings in a shallow well like this and drills threw them and then gravel packs the well. The other well driller must not have planed on gravel packing it since he had none with him. This driller is quoting me a price of 1500.00 cased and ready for me to put my pump in. The price is the same mininum the othe driller had although in the end he only charged my 800.00. I just hope he can get it done so I can start my cabin. I am glad I didn't start my cabin yet or I would really be sweating although I have already spent 15,000.00 on my barn. Driller said he will be ready to drill in about 2 weeks since he has another one to do about 20 miles for me. Wonder what kind of problems a septic in solid sand will bring?

[ben2go]

This is quoted fro this site a section titled "Dug Wells". http://www.fdungan.com/well.htm This is the type of wells we have all over the upstate SC.

Even experienced construction workers are sometimes trapped when the walls of an excavation collapse.  For safety's sake, never enter a hole deeper than your waist without bracing the sides.  One of the easiest and least expensive ways of shoring up a well is to use concrete sewer pipe.  Choose a diameter that will allow you to swing a pick from the inside without hitting the walls.  Place the first section upright on the ground where you want the well.  You will need two ladders—one to climb to the top of the pipe and the other to get to the bottom.   Use the shovel to undermine the pipe.  As you clear away the dirt from beneath the pipe, its considerable weight will cause it to settle.  This works best if you dig a few inches beyond the outer edge of the pipe.  Be careful—don't ever put your feet or fingers beneath the pipe.  The more you dig, the farther it will sink.  When the top of the pipe is even with the ground, slide another section of pipe on top.  Keep this up until you reach water, then go down several more feet to compensate for seasonal fluctuations in the water table.  Cut a few openings in the bottom section of pipe to enable groundwater to enter your well.  The final step is to pack the last foot or so of the well with a thin layer of stones and pebbles followed by a thick layer of gravel.

My next well may very well (pun intended) be a driven stand pipe well,and piped to a cistern, as a back up to rain catchment.

[glenn kangiser]

Your last driller knows more of what he is doing than the first one.  I am confident that he knows how to get you a well.  His description to you is a logical way to approach the problem and similar to a method I would use.

Keeping your code separations between the septic and the well should filter it well enough to drink by the time it gets back over there I assume.

[texasgun]

Thanks Glen for replying I feel the first driller was just inexperinced since this is not the norm around my area the norm is rock. The new driller at least already had a plan just in the time I spoke to him. I feel alot more cofident. Ben hand digging was an option but that would be last resort. I would not even consider it without some type of solid casing like you described.

[glenn kangiser]

It is even common around here for drillers to get into trouble when they get out of the area they are familiar with.

It is possible to set something like a concrete pipe on the ground then dig out from underneath it allowing it to settle into the hole as  you dig and wash out from under it with water you haul in if necessary.  Then you have to get the removed sand out of the inside of the pipe casing and over the top which gets harder as it gets deeper.  Not best done as a one man job.  I have see it done this way on big jobs.  That keeps the sides from falling in on you and the casing lowers itself.  As it gets lower you add another joint on top and keep digging out from underneath it.

A lighter pipe could be used but friction from the loose dry sand may give it trouble going down sooner.  

Ideally you would use a very large oversized casing starting out then as friction stopped it you could step down to a smaller liner inside and continue on down.  

I was taken to a Mexican well site in a village where I flew nurses and doctors to a clinic.  The town people knew I was a driller and wanted to show me how they did it.  Their ground was solid and the well was hand dug with a ladder, a couple buckets and a rope.  Two went down inside filling buckets and others brought them up.  Seems they had a windlass also but it was about 14 years ago so I don't remember all of it.

[OlJarhead]

The other local well digger finally called me back and I explained the situation and he said he has drilled several wells in sand and is familar with the problems it brings. He says he uses a combation of temporary casings in a shallow well like this and drills threw them and then gravel packs the well. The other well driller must not have planed on gravel packing it since he had none with him. This driller is quoting me a price of 1500.00 cased and ready for me to put my pump in. The price is the same mininum the othe driller had although in the end he only charged my 800.00. I just hope he can get it done so I can start my cabin. I am glad I didn't start my cabin yet or I would really be sweating although I have already spent 15,000.00 on my barn. Driller said he will be ready to drill in about 2 weeks since he has another one to do about 20 miles for me. Wonder what kind of problems a septic in solid sand will bring?

Put in a composting toilet and don't worry about septic

And a greywater drain for trees.

$1500 for a well?  WOW!  CHEAP!  I'd be looking at 4 times that or more in my area and 200+ feet down through granite....but I bought with a well already in

[UK4X4]

I'd have thought a water driven tube / casing would have driven deep enough, sand ingress would occur in the first instance, then over time a natural filter would build up, as long as flow rates were low.

Ie you install a low flow rate pump inside the tubing casing and have a large storage container at surface, yep over time you may need to remove fines inside the tubing, just a hose pipe would probably circulate up enough to get the pump back below the water line.

So you have two filters the water driven casing with filter and the pump filter on a retrievable plastic tube.

I don't do water wells but work in the oilfield and there are many sand control systems, gravel pack is the longest lasting.....basicly a natural filter pumped into the well, meshrite is a particular filter name, but also works well with sand and builds a natural filter over time.

Low flow rates - water storage - and a cleanout jobs every few years or so, depending on usage.

If you have a sand sample from the water filled zone,you could have the sand particles sized and a matching filter installed, most sub surface aquifers already have flow, its very slow, and hence does not block up !

[glenn kangiser]

I agree, UK4x4.  I think a point could work too although I haven't used one myself.  I have installed some wells I did a crude perforation of the casing and also had a couple downhole cable operated perforators  where I installed the casing first then perforated afterward and developed the natural gravel pack first with air lift developing, then after cleaned up pretty well we had the pump company come in and install a developing pump to which we attached a 400 to 1280 hp diesel pumping engine with a PTO and gearhead - mostly bigger stuff though - say around 3000 gallons per minute.

I also worked a little in the oil fields but with your screen name I assume you worked in ones a bit farther away.  Glad to have you on the forum.

[UK4X4]

"I also worked a little in the oil fields but with your screen name I assume you worked in ones a bit farther away"

the UK is relatively close.......

presently I'm a litle further South east !, but have worked all over, our house right now is the whatever we can fit in a 40ft container......

a modern day gypsy style of travelling man

You'll note we have sanding issues arround here too ! the rigs a little bigger, and I tend to feel a lot more sandier !



taken in the not so "empty quater" Oman