kit houses such as First Day

[BigMish]

Hi,
I'm wondering if any one has any experience or opinions on kit houses such as Fist Day (http://www.firstdaycottage.com/Main.html).

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Also, any recommendations on particular manufacturers.

Thanks, Mischa

[Daddymem]

FirstDay Cottages are not kits.  They are building materials, instructions and a support system to help you build them.  

We built one and love it:
http://schluterhomestead.blogspot.com/
There are links there to other families who have built  FirstDays as well as the Yahoo group, feel free to join up and read through the posts.  

If you are serious about building a FirstDay, there is no replacement for just going up and seeing John or David at FirstDay and visiting one or more completed or in progress.  Or if you aren't near New Hampshire you can ask nicely on the Yahoo group and someone near you might let you come see theirs.  If you choose FirstDay, you won't regret it.  Good Luck!

[Spyke]

I just took a quick look at the site and can't figure out why someone who knows about this site would consider it. Nice thing about John's plans is that you can make changes to them with very little problems, save money on materials by shopping around annd wheeling and dealing. Then you have this forum for support.

just my 2cents

[TisaWee_Farm]

I sent away for their demonstration videos a year or so ago.   Very nice home, but VERY, and I mean VERY, laborious!  They even mention it in all of their advertisements that it is not a "get it done quick" type of thing.  The home is constructed in bays (sections), and uses small lumber....nothing heavy.  That was the original reason I looked at it.  But like the previous poster said, I much prefer THIS method, and it doesn't use extremely big materials.  I can handle 14' spans.

It seemed a bit expensive, too.  I wanted something small, and the closest they could do would be for me to build the garage.  No character in that!

[glenn-k]

Daddymem and Mommymem built one from the ground up so if you check out their blog above you will get the detailed inf.  Also check out the Progress Finally thread in our Owner Bulder projects section to learn more.

[BigMish]

Daddymem, great blog, thanks. I'm reading through it now. It's really thoroughly documented and extremely informative. How long do you estimate it took you to complete this project; do you think the 600-1000 man hour estimate on the First Day is accurate?

In answer to your question, Spyke, the First Days interest me becouse as a first time builder I find them a bit less intimidating. I like that all the materials arrive and are available on site. Sure, it may cost a bit more, but for my piece of mind, I think it's worth it. Also, the "support system" has a real appeal to me. While this forum is a really great resource, allot of times you'll get a "you could do it this way or this way" response. Again, as a first time builder I'd find it reassuring to have a single, accountable, authoritative voice to say "no, do it this way". Lastly, becouse it is purchased upfront in a lump sum, price estimate is much more accurate (which is something I had been struggling with).

.M

[Daddymem]

We haven't added up the hours but what you see on the blog is accurate.  We were in under a year with only weekends and two whole weeks.  Careful what you read on FirstDay.  We built a new cape and that is more work than the original which is what they are referring to.  FirstDays are unique, that's why we went with it on top of the support system they have.  The plans come with a thick instruction booklet documenting each and every step you take to build the house.  Also, you may be able to get materials for less, but you won't be able to get these materials for less.  Very high quality wood.  The dimensional stuff is European grade with few and tight knots.  The sheathing is local New England pine.  When done, you get a timber frame type house with no drywall or plywood, a metal roof, and wood floors, with a floorplan that is flexible.  I was a clumsy oaf with tools, but I did it and so can you.  We also we recieved much better reception from the banks, they feel the FirstDay is close enough to a kit and that gives them comfort.  It was a lot of work.  And we were uncertain and scared a lot but we just took it one task at a time, only the day we were working on it was in our minds.  FirstDays aren't for everyone, but neither are modulars, log cabins, underground homes, dome homes, sips homes....but people build those because they want them.  We bought plans here but they just weren't what we wanted.  We were very close to building the Universal but it was lacking.  Then we found FirstDay and checked them out in person...fell in love with the feel and that was that.  And looking at this house on our lot...nothing else would have worked as well.  If you choose to visit FirstDay, get on the yahoo group and see if anyone else is willing to let you have a look at theirs while you are out.  You're welcome here and there are two others close by, one a 2 story cape farm and the other an addition to a cottage.  Good luck.

[glenn-k]

Also, the "support system" has a real appeal to me. While this forum is a really great resource, allot of times you'll get a "you could do it this way or this way" response. Again, as a first time builder I'd find it reassuring to have a single, accountable, authoritative voice to say "no, do it this way".

Here is what is happening here with this Big M

When you enter into a contract with First Day you have agreed to pay them premium prices to put together a parts package and help you and tell you do it this way , etc.  The shell has a fixed design and each piece has it's place and purpose.

If something is not exactly as they tell you or materials are not right, that premium you paid is a sort of an insurance policy and being a reputable company they will take care of you.  They say things are exactly as they are and put their money behind it.

Here you pay a nominal fee for the plans.  John charges a very low price in my opinion.  He takes responsibility for the plans.  They are made specifically to be adaptable and changeable and therefore some responsibility falls upon you.  Answers are provided and an education is provided on this free forum that will allow you to successfully complete your project if you so desire.  In addition, in trade for helping John with members questions and ideas who are actually his customers -- ones who have purchased plans -- he allows us to use this forum for members questions even on projects which are not his or are not directly related to his plans.  He has also given us the off topics community space to pursue any other interests we may want to  communicate with other interested parties about.

That is why you will not see someone here taking responsibility to tell you to do exactly this , that , or the other thing.  Give a man a fish - he will eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.... or some such blather.

Anyway - point being -- here you will gain the knowledge you need to make your own decision.  
There you will do as you are told.  

Here or there if you do it wrong you pay.  There if they do it wrong they pay.  Here there is no they.  You take responsibility for what you do from what you learn from others experiences and ideas.  All comments here are voluntary from people who want to see you get ahead and they hope to gain more knowledge in the process.  This was part of the original purpose of the internet,  This is not a place where someone will take responsibility for your actions.  This is a place where you will learn enough to be capable of making your own informed decisions, judge your own work and take responsibility for your own actions.

[FrankInWIS]

gee Glenn, you are a the Renaissance man.  You can do it all...the brawn and brain.... yet you're intelectual side is evident on how well you decern and write about the differnece in the approaches being discussed.  
I for one don't want "THE answer".  I want to learn what goes into making a good decision about what is being discussed, then I want to arive at the decision taking my personal situation in to account.  Oh yeh, there are a million small things I read once and now know and hopefully will incorparate into my skills, but a lot of this does take thought and evaluation.

[glenn-k]

Thanks a million, Frank.  School of Hard Knocks here.  I have been self employed for over 33 years, so have picked up a few things, although I never did go to college to get myself a real brain. :-?  

They failed to focus on the things I wanted to learn so it necessitated a self education.

[glenn-k]

Gotta admit I confuse myself sometimes though. :-/

[williet]

Also, the "support system" has a real appeal to me. While this forum is a really great resource, allot of times you'll get a "you could do it this way or this way" response. Again, as a first time builder I'd find it reassuring to have a single, accountable, authoritative voice to say "no, do it this way".

Here is what is happening here with this Big M

When you enter into a contract with First Day you have agreed to pay them premium prices to put together a parts package and help you and tell you do it this way , etc.  The shell has a fixed design and each piece has it's place and purpose.

If something is not exactly as they tell you or materials are not right, that premium you paid is a sort of an insurance policy and being a reputable company they will take care of you.  They say things are exactly as they are and put their money behind it.

Here you pay a nominal fee for the plans.  John charges a very low price in my opinion.  He takes responsibility for the plans.  They are made specifically to be adaptable and changeable and therefore some responsibility falls upon you.  Answers are provided and an education is provided on this free forum that will allow you to successfully complete your project if you so desire.  In addition, in trade for helping John with members questions and ideas who are actually his customers -- ones who have purchased plans -- he allows us to use this forum for members questions even on projects which are not his or are not directly related to his plans.  He has also given us the off topics community space to pursue any other interests we may want to  communicate with other interested parties about.

That is why you will not see someone here taking responsibility to tell you to do exactly this , that , or the other thing.  Give a man a fish - he will eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.... or some such blather.

Anyway - point being -- here you will gain the knowledge you need to make your own decision.  
There you will do as you are told.  

Here or there if you do it wrong you pay.  There if they do it wrong they pay.  Here there is no they.  You take responsibility for what you do from what you learn from others experiences and ideas.  All comments here are voluntary from people who want to see you get ahead and they hope to gain more knowledge in the process.  This was part of the original purpose of the internet,  This is not a place where someone will take responsibility for your actions.  This is a place where you will learn enough to be capable of making your own informed decisions, judge your own work and take responsibility for your own actions.

Very well said, Glenn

[glenn-k]

Thanks williet.  Every so often I have an inspired moment. :-/

[Daddymem]

The FirstDay part, unfortunately is off.

[glenn-k]

Sorry if I didn't get it right.

Go ahead and correct the issues I may have there.  That is kind of the way I saw it but may not be correct.

Just list the incorrect points and explain your take on it or the way it is--- I know you know since you completed one.

[Daddymem]

FirstDays are not kits at all.  That's the first hump to get over.  Basically, buy one of John's plans.  Then someone takes care of the take off and material delivery for you (like I said before, you couldn't get the materials FirstDay sends for the prices they get, probably some of the materials, but not all.  This is where the highest premium comes from.)  It is quite a load off your mind when that truck comes with absolutely everything you need to build your home (less tools and a few random small items) is on it.

This is no insert tab A into slot B manual you get either.  The book is thought out and put together a bit willy nilly so you have to read through it several times to get the whole picture.  They aren't instructions, they are lessons in building a FirstDay cottage.  There are many details and assistance on the pages giving you sometimes several different ways you can do things.  Some of the stuff is left unclear on purpose so you call FirstDay and they can get a feel how far along you are and how you are doing.  And when you call, you never get definitive "this is the way to do it" answers, they give you ideas or several different ways for you to choose from.  Often I found myself doing it a totally different way than the book or phone conversations.  I doubt any two FirstDayers have the same experience when complete and no two are built the same way I bet.  A huge lesson in the book is teaching you how to appreciate wood.  The most important lesson because most pieces you put up will be visible when completed and luckily they use the highest quality wood.  I couldn't imagine Home Depot or even local lumber yard wood looking as good as this stuff does.  The cast off stuff looks better than a lot of the usable stuff elsewhere.

David takes pride in making it so anyone can build a FirstDay if they don't mind sweating and heavy lifting and he provides you with just enough information in the book to do so.  He even rightly so says do not let a contractor near the book-they won't get it and I saw firsthand...they don't.  That's because the book is written for people who have no experience in building and the FirstDay style is very different from conventional homes.  Think of the book like one of these how to books linked here on CountryPlans, just the topic is FirstDay style building.

Also, these houses and John's houses are apples and oranges. If you like the FirstDay Cottage homes, John can't help you.  If you like the Universal 2 story or any  other of John's plans, David can't help you.

Personally, after seeing a FirstDay Cottage in person and owning the Universal plans, I don't see how anyone would choose the Universal, but that's because I fell in love with the style.  

[glenn-k]

Thanks for taking the time to clear that up, Daddymem.  I have seen your blog and pictures and know that your house is one of the best and nicest looking I have seen.

As you stated they are two completely different construction methods.  The purchasing power of high quality materials and having the sources is one thing that can't be beat.

So it seems from your post that you are still pretty much responsible for the methods, construction and decision making in most cases with the First Day also.  Its just that the plans and system are completely different than a stick built house so you are going in a bit different direction to accomplish a completed home.

This seems to come down to getting a bargain on top quality materials and liking the different method of construction - seems to me like a modified Timberframe - I don't know exactly what you call it.

What I see Big Mish as wanting is to transfer liability for decisions to someone else.  Possibly I misunderstood.  It looks like Firstday would still be over his head then if that is what he wants.  I have only heard that the full kit houses are generally overpriced as the people doing the work want to make a decent profit.  No free lunch.

Obviously Firstday is not a kit, but more of a system of getting an above average quality house, so it looks like all of the hard learning is still there.  One thing is that once you take time to learn it you gain skills you would never have any other way and you gain the confidence to know that no matter what happens, you now have the knowledge to provide shelter for your family.  I remember before you started you wondered if you could do it.  Now there is no question.

Thanks again.

[Daddymem]

Yeah, there, now you got it.  It certainly is a confidence builder.  I got to learn many things and now don't shy away from "upgrades" and repairs to my parent's house either.  With the help of my buddy with some commercial building experience I got to pick up some carpenter tricks from him which was a huge bonus for us.  Of course the structural parts of home building is lacking because the framing for the FirstDay avoids that-there are no headers on the doors or windows for example (the spacing between posts is wider than the ROs).  One thing-you gotta like wood to live in one.  Some have trimmed theirs out in drywall but after seeing how nice this wood is, I couldn't bear to do that.  I guess it would be a modified timber frame with built up posts and beams..  I think I've seen some books on the style, John even posted them iirc.  

[glenn-k]

Well, I'm proud of you, Mommymem and the whole group who worked together to create your house.

The knowledge you gained will always be with you and you will no longer ever be able to be considered simply, an engineer.